Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Baroness Wilcox

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wilcox]

Indeed, and that is why the consultation has been in-depth, why it is continuing now and why the chief executives of the organisations are coming together to make sure that this changes over and happens well. These and other issues, such as whether and how statutory powers are transferred to the Citizens Advice service and what delivery models might be appropriate in Scotland and Wales, will be formally consulted on after the elections in May.

The intention of the Government in making these proposals is to provide the best possible service for consumers, to be their champion at a national and international level, and to provide information and advice in ways that suit them best. I therefore hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I first thank my noble friends Lord Borrie, Lord Whitty, Lord Beecham and Lord Stevenson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes. As a former chair and Consumer Minister, she well understands the work of the organisation, as was indicated. I bow to her judgment. I agree strongly with my noble friend Lord Borrie that the whole move is still unsatisfactory. However, the point of this amendment is to help, rather than take on the whole of that issue. It is meant to help the Government by moving the NCC to Schedule 5, thereby increasing the flexibility that is open to them as they review the consumer environment.

As her own department is now finding out, and as my noble friend Lord Beecham has said, the CABs are already overwhelmed. My noble friend Lord Hunt said that in Birmingham all five are at risk, and there is to be a 20 per cent cut in Newcastle. All their energies will be put into what they do well at the moment. Advising individuals is simply not the same job as providing cross-market advice on how markets work for consumers. Someone yesterday said to me, “I like Citizens Advice. They are just like our local post office”. As the Minister said, Citizens Advice is indeed trusted, local and it knows you. However, combining it with Consumer Focus is rather like putting the post office together with a merchant bank such as Goldman Sachs. Just because they both do the same thing—handle money—you do not merge them. Just because Consumer Focus and Citizens Advice are interested in consumers, you do not merge them.

However, that is not in the proposal in front of us. I had expected the review of the consumer landscape to be revealed. I am grateful for the information, although not the content, which we will not now receive until after 5 May. However, the Government, in advance of announcing their consultation, already wanted to put Consumer Focus into the abolition bucket. That undermines and misunderstands the work of Consumer Focus, which is about consumer input into consumer policy. As my noble friend Lord Whitty said, we risk the loss of the statutory powers if Citizens Advice is unable to take on those powers, and if Consumer Focus remains in Schedule 1. That is a big risk. As my noble friend Lord Stevenson said, we risk losing advocacy and representation.

The role of Citizens Advice is face-to-face. It is about individual consumers. It is not about national policy or taking on British Airways, Virgin, internet providers or big national organisations that can also treat consumers poorly. Although I welcome the reference to international and European consumer policy, that is quite different from representing individuals in need—over money, housing or family problems.

We are talking about a transfer of functions that were laid down in the 2007 Act. I fear that the Government want to abolish those functions; otherwise, why are they putting Consumer Focus in the abolition bucket? I have heard the words of the Minister, but there is an overwhelming case for not abolishing Consumer Focus, but for putting it into Schedule 5, under which some functions could be transferred if the review shows that that is the best way forward. I should like to test the opinion of the House.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Baroness Wilcox

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wilcox]

My Lords, late though the hour is, that is a very good question. The consultation that we will have will take on board everything that has been raised tonight and is raised by people taking part in the consultation. Obviously, if we intend doing something as changing as this, everything will be considered. It would be foolish indeed if we just allowed everything to close. We must remember that Citizens Advice back at base is where so much of the work will be done. People will be able to contact Citizens Advice online, but I agree that the high street is where Citizens Advice as majored and I am sure that we will do all we can to make sure that that visible presence does not get reduced.

It is perhaps worth saying that the consultation will happen in the spring, which of course is within the next few weeks. We propose to make any changes in the consumer landscape by April 2013, so we have plenty of time to get this right and to see exactly what is happening out there and what we are creating.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I thank the speakers, who have been impressive, if not overwhelming, for me today. They include a former director-general of OFT, three—including the intervention —former chairs of the NCC and a former Minister in this area. It shows the degree of concern about how consumers within civil society can have their voices heard in decision-making, whether that be in the public sector through industry, by regulators or by elsewhere. It seems to me that this is a key area.

The original purpose of the Government was to reduce the number and cost of quangos—hence its so-called review. We hear that the consultation will be early this year or in springtime. It is at least something that that review has taken place. The House of Commons Public Administration Select Committee in its report thought that the review to date was poorly managed. I fear that even the Minister’s answers have substantiated that. I am delighted to hear her say that the Government will look at, are looking at and are giving consideration. That is great. It is just rather sad that that has happened after the decision and after this Bill is before us rather than before.

There was precious little consultation with Scotland and none with Wales, none with the wider consumer movement or representatives of users or clients, or indeed anyone else. As my noble friend Lord Whitty said, the Bill does not provide for a transfer of functions—it is an abolition. My noble friend Lord Borrie did not ask who is going to provide help on the high street, important though that is, but put the vital question of who will do the high-quality research, investigatory and advocacy work across the whole economy that is being done by Consumer Focus and the NCC before that. I do not think the Minister has answered that question.

The proposal, according to my noble friend Lord Liddle, is anti-big society, and I think that is right because the big society should be about having the consumer voice at the heart of every decision that takes place. The reasons given for other bodies in the Bill is that they are old, a bit cranky and in need of an MOT, or even removal. That is not the case with Consumer Focus because it is two years old. Nevertheless, I agree very strongly with what the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said. If this Bill had led to rationalisation and to better protection and advice, she would be with it. At the time when I was still with the NCC and we were discussing the mergers, we would have loved to have the water watchdog, Passenger Focus and others coming in so as to provide a really strong and dynamic voice for consumers. Had this led to such a rationalisation, I would not be here arguing against it—I would be cheering it on. We need consumers across all sectors to have a stronger voice, so if the desire expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, was to be met, I too would be with it.

As the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, said, it is not a positive proposal for change; rather it is a winding-up process. I think he also agreed with the notion of “Rationalise, yes; abolish, no”. He said he did not think that the Bill would achieve the aims of better consumer protection and certainly is not going to save public money. The noble Lord fears that this marriage will not work. I think he may be right and that it may be a marriage made in hell. He also asked whether Citizens Advice could undertake the probing, analytical work that has been done. Citizens Advice is about solving individual problems, but we need a consumer voice that goes to Government, to industry and to services.

I am delighted that the Minister said that discussions and talks are now taking place. They may be late, but better late than never. I will also be delighted if Scotland and Wales have time to consider whether there is an alternative model that suits the devolved areas better. The Select Committee also said that the Government face the much larger challenge of successfully implementing these reforms. That is right because there are still questions about funding. I was sorry to hear the Minister use words like “efficiency” and “savings” in her discussion on funding when I had rather hoped to hear about a promise and, “Yes, that is fine”. I would have liked that better. There are still questions of accountability and about whether Citizens Advice is the right organisation to do this job. There is also the question of what happens if finally it says no.

I hope that the Government will continue in their thinking and do a proper consultation, even if it is being done a bit later than perhaps it could have been. But in order to assist them, of course I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.