Professional Qualifications Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Baroness Randerson

Committee stage
Monday 14th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Garden has wisely pointed out the poor grammar in the Bill. I hope that note will be taken of that. The really significant question here is what the assistance centre is for. It is built on—and the Minister went out of his way last time to point this out—the modest size and the modest number of inquiries that the current assistance centre has dealt with. It is a creation of the UK Government as a result of a non-legal requirement from the EU—a suggestion from the EU. It is not a legislative requirement by the EU. The UK Government decided to make the requirement in law, but the EU situation does not make it a requirement.

We therefore have this organisation that has clearly, in the past, had a small, modest but useful function, but the world has moved on. If you search for anything online these days, there is a wealth of information. Even if you have a limited level of experience in a particular field, you rapidly discover what information is reliable and what is not. What is proposed here is a much bigger organisation—a much more grandiose and legally established organisation with scope for further growth. The Minister told me not to be suspicious, but I remain suspicious. In my view, the UK Government see this organisation as an opportunity for them to take a centralising, co-ordinating role which will nudge the devolved Administrations out of the way in fields where the vast majority of activity is devolved, such as health, teaching and social work. The day-to-day activity in the health service, the teaching profession and social work is done and controlled by the devolved Administrations, even if there are not always separate regulators.

We have raised previously the concurrency of powers of the devolved Administrations and the UK Government. This is an attempt by the UK Government to bring what they see as order and an element of control to the situation. If the assistance centre had a purpose, modern search facilities online have now made it redundant. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, that it is better to put it to sleep—put it out of its misery.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, while I absolutely agree with my noble friend Lord Foulkes that any advice would be better if it was comprehensive and included all the things that everyone would want to know if they were applying either to move here or to go away, the more fundamental question, which I and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, asked, is whether we need Clause 7 at all. As she and others have said, it is not clear why it is necessary to establish a statutory advice centre simply to handle information and provide advice and assistance. It will not make any decisions. It will not have the authority to chide regulators for not doing something; it does not have any authority over them. The statutory requirement is actually on regulators to provide advice to the centre—there is no statutory requirement on the centre to fine them if they do not do it or anything else like that—although, as has been said, there are already other ways of getting that information. In addition, only the UK Government, not the other Governments in the Bill, interestingly enough, are able to enforce this requirement. I do not know whether that is an oversight but, given that there is more than one national authority in the Bill, it would be interesting to know why the requirement on regulators is laid down only by the UK Government.

This is all very strange. It is a very clunky and convoluted way of simply asking statutory regulators to tell a Minister such information as is needed to provide advice to potential applicants on how they go about getting their qualifications recognised here. They have been doing that for years. We heard earlier about a number of regulators, particularly in the health service, veterinary science and other areas, that have been doing this for years without any statutory requirement to provide the advice, so it is unclear why the new law is needed. As has already been said, we know that the assistance centre is already in operation. But I think none of us knows why we need a specific underpinning now, and what it is that could not be done by a couple of civil servants within BEIS.

The Minister said last Wednesday that “new legislative cover” is required, but he did not spell out what it was required to do—why this could not be done on a voluntary basis. We have lots of other advice centres which do not have to have statutory underpinning, so why is legislation needed? He said, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, just quoted, that the centre

“is basically a focal point—a signposting mechanism that tells people where to go to get more information about professions”

and that

“it employs either two or three people.”

It must be tiny; I was going to say that it received 1,600 queries in a year, but it has now received 1,601—I think our little website here gets far more hits than that. As the Minister had the honesty to confess:

“These queries can be as simple as saying, ‘What is the address of the place I have to write to, to find out how I become a nurse in Great Britain?’”—[Official Report, 9/6/21; col. 1501.]


If you google “nurse vacancies”, you might just find it. The idea that we are employing anybody and paying them money to tell people about the address they need to write to to find out how to become a nurse in Great Britain makes me worried, and why on earth does it have to be a statutory body if it is just signposting?

The impact assessment says that

“the Secretary of State can (through contractual arrangements) require the national assistance centre to support professionals”—

it is unclear what “support” means—

“in getting their UK qualifications recognised overseas by providing reasonable information to their overseas counterparts.”

Again, surely the regulator can do that. If a doctor wants to apply to be a doctor in New Zealand, for example, surely their regulator can supply that information. If it is to be done by the advice centre and by contract, it is really hard to think why, again, it needs two bodies or persons to be statutory if they are simply setting up contracts to be able to exchange information—because it is not a decision-making body.

It is unclear what the relationship will be between the centre and overseas regulators. If it is by contracts, how much will they be bound by data protection to ensure that the overseas regulators will look after people’s data according to normal laws? That is easier in a regulator-to-regulator agreement—we have talked about these elsewhere, so why not here?

I am completely mystified as to why Clause 7 is in the Bill. Perhaps we can just take it out, and then we can all go home.

Flybe

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Baroness Randerson

Thursday 5th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. This collapse could have very serious consequences, not just for those currently stranded here or abroad; not just for employees—the ground staff at airports as well as direct employees—and not even just for the insurance industry. This collapse has longer-term consequences, particularly for our regions, heavily reliant on connectivity for employment, tourism and travel. I need hardly say that with the almost certain economic impact of coronavirus and travel changes after 31 December, the loss of a major transport link could have particularly serious consequences.

Any attempt to blame this collapse on the coronavirus will not wash. Transport experts had been warning about the state of this company well before the first cough, and the Government must explain why a proper plan was not in place before recent events. We have been here before with passengers affected by the collapse of Monarch and Thomas Cook. This case is worse for some, with fewer passengers travelling on packages and therefore not necessarily ATOL-protected. We welcome what is being done in the short term to get passengers home, but there is also the loss of holidays and other associated costs. Can the Minister spell out the plans to assist those passengers beyond mere transport? Also, how does the Government plan to re-establish trust in the industry, which is taking a serious hit? Given that the CAA has sustained funding cuts under this Government, can the Minister confirm whether any additional financial support will be provided to enable it to support passengers following Flybe’s collapse?

The impact of this on the regions and nations of the UK cannot be overestimated: 80% of flights at Belfast City Airport are operated by Flybe, 95% at Southampton, 50% at Humberside and at Wick, and 100% at Anglesey, with 30 other airports affected. Many of these provide critical connectivity, often where there is no realistic alternative to flying. Indeed, some of these smaller airports might now themselves be at risk. The impact on small businesses could be devastating. Can the Minister outline the support that will be made available to communities, and could she confirm that the Government will meet urgently with local authority representatives and airport operators to agree a package of central government help?

Passengers, local economies, and of course 2,000 employees face a difficult time ahead. Can the Minister confirm what engagement the Government have had with Unite and BALPA today and give an undertaking that the Government will play a full role, alongside Unite and BALPA, to help Flybe workers find new jobs?

The talk of HS2, bus and cycle lanes in the Statement sounds woefully misplaced in this context. That will not help Cardiff and the south-west, and they certainly will not help Belfast. The words

“The Government are well prepared”


for the impact sound hollow today, as an airline folds due to a slight downturn in bookings. The impact on consumer confidence, on the likelihood of passengers and businesses continuing to book flights, and on their concerns about cancellations and loss of money must not be underestimated. Will the Government agree to engage with the relevant user and consumer groups, so they can also play their part in in rebuilding consumer trust and ensuring that passengers are treated fairly?

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the Statement, which comes at a time of huge concern in the aviation industry. When Flybe first publicly hit problems a couple of months ago, the Government wildly overpromised the help that was on offer, or potentially on offer. It turns out that virtually none of that help was possible, partly because of the concern in the rest of the aviation industry about fair competition but also because the Government, for one reason or another, have not been able to offer money on reasonable terms to the company.

All the grand schemes in the world will not help the people who are losing their jobs today or who are being cut off from the regular routes that they use which are important either to their families or to their businesses. In this Statement the Government repeat some of these grand, long-term promises—but, to be fair, that is actually irrelevant at this time.

On competitive market companies that fail, the Statement is really surprising, given the Government’s response couple of months ago. It says:

“It is not the role of government to prop them up.”


But two months ago, the Government were offering assistance that effectively was promising to do that. Shape shifting will not help the market. What help, if any, did the Government, in the end, provide to Flybe? Was Flybe able to defer the payment of any taxes, or was that not possible?

Beyond the concerns for Flybe employees and the passengers who have paid money for flights, amply outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, there will be a very serious knock-on effect at smaller regional airports in the UK. Some of those airports could also find they cannot continue operating. The Statement says:

“Government stands ready to support this sector.”


Exactly how will the Government offer help to this sector? There is a danger that the Government are offering more help that actually cannot be implemented in the end.

The importance of Flybe has been overwhelmingly in its routes to isolated parts of the UK. Some such routes in the UK have PSO status, but only one is a Flybe route: the Newquay to Gatwick route. France has 22 PSO routes, so, even if we are still working to EU rules on this, I ask the Government to reconsider the number of internal routes that are given PSO status, because that is what will provide long-term certainty and a long-term levelling up for parts of the country that are very isolated.

Coronavirus is undoubtedly a factor in tipping this company over the edge probably slightly earlier than would otherwise have happened, and there will be other cases.