Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 30th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, there is something in what my noble friend Lord Adonis said about the inadequacies, thanks to—I think— the drawn-out negotiating technique chosen by our Government, which has ended up with an agreement which probably could have been reached many weeks ago and left us this very inadequate way of dealing with an important Bill. In normal times, the Commons having sent us a Bill, we would scrutinise it, test whether it fulfils the roles set for it, and ensure that it is workable and that there is transparency and accountability. But, sadly, that is not what we have the chance to do, partly, as I say, because of the Government’s own delaying in negotiations—whether because they were afraid of the ERG or your Lordships’ House, I leave to others to conclude.

But what it does mean is that the House today does have to take exceptional and extraordinary action. I thank particularly the amazing work of our Constitution Committee, which kindly looked at this and, in particular, at the fast-tracking of it. It agreed and accepted absolutely the case for taking exceptional, extraordinary action, which is necessary in this case basically to make sure that we do not crash out without a deal—nor, indeed, find ourselves with legal uncertainty when there is a gap in law between the end of 31 December and the beginning of 1 January. We do need a statute book that works on Friday morning.

Of course, I particularly regret not being able to get into this Bill. I love all that: negotiations, amendments and groupings. No? Okay, well, I quite enjoy them anyway. What was important, particularly over the internal market Bill, was how much change this House made. We sent back a much-improved Bill, partly because of the hard work, commitment and knowledge of Members of your Lordships’ House. Having looked at the Bill, which I saw only at 12 o’clock yesterday, there really is a lot there that we would be able to get stuck into, with the sort of scrutiny we normally do, if we had the time.

But that is not where we are. We cannot alter the treaty anyway—not a jot or comma of it—because that is agreed by 27 Governments. We should not pretend, therefore, that there is anything we can do, other than stop it in its tracks and have no deal, which I know none of us would want. In fact, for those of us who have looked at it, the Bill takes the deal and drops it into legislation. Given that we cannot alter that deal and have to drop it into legislation, the truth is that even with a Committee stage, a Report stage and a Third Reading, there would be nothing we could do that would alter the treaty. So I think that a degree of realism is perhaps worth bearing in mind.

Of course we are not going to be able to do what we should do, but, as everyone has accepted, the Bill has to get Royal Assent tomorrow. It seems to me that the important thing is that we can carry out the other function that this House is so renowned for—not just detailed legislation but the influencing of public opinion, the Government and the Commons. The most important thing is that we can do that today via the debate, and I therefore hope that we can get on and hear as many of your Lordships, with their views on the treaty, as possible. I think that that is something we can do.

So I think we have to let this business get on. I would like to thank not only the usual channels but all the staff who have enabled us to do this and be here today. Your Lordships do not get holidays, so you are not giving one up, but they are giving up their Christmas holiday to be here and do all the work, and we owe them a great debt of gratitude.

I believe that we have to leave with a deal, and therefore we have to do this Bill today. We therefore will support the government Motion but will not support the amendment to it.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, before I call the Chief Whip to reply, is there any other Member in the Chamber who wishes to contribute to this debate? As there is not, I will call the Chief Whip to reply.

Enterprise Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 4th November 2015 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 53ZH is in my name and that of my noble friend, Lord Stevenson. I will also speak to the other amendments in the group, which go to the heart of the exit payment problems.

It is not that we are particularly against what the Government said that they wanted to do in curtailing the very large exit payments made to a tiny handful of public servants who then re-enter the service of the state, albeit in a different guise. Indeed, as I am sure the Minister does not need reminding, the original words in the Conservative Party’s manifesto—on page 49, I think, if she has a copy here—were:

“We will end taxpayer-funded six-figure payoffs for the best paid public sector workers.”

Best paid? No, the cap will affect those with long service rather than those on the highest pay—hence our probing amendment to discover what exactly the Government are out to achieve. This is not aimed at the “best paid” of our public servants. The Cabinet Office confirmed that some earning less than £25,000 a year could be affected because of their long service—that is, serving the public, often for salaries below those in the private sector.

We assume that this was not the Government’s initial intention, especially given that they said in their memo to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee that the regulations would only prevent “vast benefits” being paid to “a few individuals”. That is not what we have, so why has it changed? Has the Government’s intention changed or is this just poorly thought-out legislation, which ends up hurting long-standing rather than highly paid staff?

Will the noble Baroness give the explanation that I think is due to us and, indeed, to all public servants? Does she consider that £25,000 equates with “best paid”? Has the intention changed, so that the Government want long-serving workers to be caught? Is this just a rather nasty, crafty little device that they have alighted on simply to help to reduce the deficit, given that the Chancellor seems to be having difficulty with it, by hanging that deficit around the neck of their own employees? Or is this just mistaken drafting, which the Minister will be happy to amend on Report?

As I suggested, the impact assessment suggested that the cap could save “low hundreds of millions” over given years, as if anticipating relatively small numbers being caught. However, no formal impact assessment was undertaken,

“as there are no obligations or costs imposed on business”.

Of course, an impact assessment is always possible and the impact on the people concerned, or indeed on the efficiency of government, should have been a central concern, although it was clearly not to Ministers.

We will come later to the particular impact of “strain payments”, but in the mean time we would like some clarification of why the particular figure was chosen. Was it simply to be under the “six-figure” that had been mentioned in the press? What thought was given to the impact across the public service? Were medium-or even lowish-income employees meant to be caught by it? Also, why is there a disparity with the NHS figure?

Furthermore, if the Government are really intent on dealing with the mischief of some super-payouts in this rather crude formulaic way via a cap, then not only should the Minister consider whether the figure is correct, but she should also give a commitment to index-link the amount before even Foreign Office cleaners are included. The Local Government Association supports the amendment to ensure that the figure is re-evaluated on an annual basis, so as to take into account differences in pay increases in separate areas of the public sector.

I am sure that the Committee is familiar with the figures as to who could be caught by the cap. According to the Cabinet Office, more than 20,000 in the main Civil Service and many more in arm’s-length bodies would be. It is the combination of age, and length of service rather than high pay that trap these people. The examples given have included a librarian, with a career average salary of £25,000—perhaps 34 years with the council when its library closes—and she is redundant at 55. It is a bit late to start a new career, and there are not a lot of private libraries to which she can move. She will be caught by the cap. Similarly, a 52 year-old tax inspector, or indeed a prison warder, who has worked for 25 years, or a 50 year-old health and safety officer with 20 years’ experience, or a 56 year-old school inspector after 16 years with Ofsted, or perhaps with FOS, if PPI ever got sorted.

Other groups include educational psychologists, mostly employed by local government, earning between £40,000 and £50,000 a year. They do not consider themselves the “best paid” in society, and I share their view. However, again, they will be caught, not because of their pay rate but because, if they are over 55, of the so-called strain payments—money which, of course, does not go to the person concerned but to the pension scheme, as we will come on to in later amendments. Can the Minister therefore say what thought the Government gave to the public servants who do such valuable work for all of us?

The cap as it is in the Bill at present covers compulsory redundancies, where of course the individual has no choice as to whether to walk and no opportunity to weigh up the pros and cons of leaving the service, but will simply lose the rights and reasonable expectations built up over a career. They—and we—deserve to know why this figure was chosen, and whether it really was aimed at these “good and faithful” colleagues. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I inform the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to I cannot call Amendments 53ZJ to 54BC inclusive by reason of pre-emption.

Consumer Rights Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 48A.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Let me just clarify that the noble Baroness is moving Amendment 46A. She said “Amendment 48A”.