Welfare Reform Bill

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2011 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

51B: After Clause 12, insert the following new Clause—
“School meals
(1) The amount in respect of other particular needs or circumstances, under section 12, shall include an amount in respect of school meals for any dependents of the claimant.
(2) The maximum award of the amount under this section shall be 100% of the cost that the claimant would expect to incur in respect of school meals, up to a prescribed maximum value per child.
(3) Regulations shall specify the circumstances under which a claimant shall be entitled to an amount under this section.
(4) Under no circumstances shall any amount payable under this section be included in the “relevant amount” specified in section 93(5) of this Act.”

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 51C. These amendments seek to ensure that free school meals and health costs, which are the core of passported benefits, are included as part of the universal credit. They also seek to ensure that any amounts included for universal credit are not included as part of the benefit cap.

In May, the Minister deftly devolved the tricky matter of how to deal with passporting to the Social Security Advisory Committee. In a Written Statement earlier this month, he updated the House on the committee’s consultation and its information gathering. It reported that the SSAC had had more than 60 responses from individuals and a wide range of organisations, including disabled people, offenders, schools, children, housing bodies, medical bodies, the NACAB, local councils, debt advice bodies and, of course, the devolved Administrations. That was alongside a trawl of relevant research and some qualitative research, which included focus groups with welfare rights advisers, and a few in-depth interviews and discussions with individuals who either have or are claiming passported benefits. The research identified more than 25 different passported benefits provided by government departments or local authorities, some of which were mentioned by my noble friend Lady Drake on the previous group.

Perhaps more significantly, although hardly surprisingly, the committee found that passported benefits are viewed as fulfilling important needs. Respondents’ views on the withdrawal of passported benefits were mixed, with some supporting a tapered withdrawal and others more of a timed withdrawal when a claimant moves into work. At the moment, we would argue—I think that this would go across the Committee—that passported benefits should be designed to incentivise people both to move into work and to stay in work. The committee has now been asked to develop guiding principles for such a design of passported benefits in relation to universal credit. I think that it has been given until the end of January to do that. My understanding is that we will see that report and the DWP’s response only in the spring of next year, which makes it difficult for this Committee and the House later to judge whether the Bill will ensure that work always pays.

Furthermore, I am slightly unclear as to how the new “app” foreshadowed by the Minister last week will be able to deal with things such as free school meals and other passported benefits if these are to be subject to any sort of taper or awarded only to certain UC recipients. Perhaps the Minister will spend a moment exploring this in his response, especially now that my noble friend Lord Knight who understands these things is in his place and will understand, I hope, the response better than I will on things like that.

The Social Security Advisory Committee unsurprisingly found that passported benefits provide a vital support to many. Free school meals can have a significant impact on the well-being of children. In its response, the CPAG stressed that access to school meals has a range of positive well-being, health and educational outcomes for children, from improved classroom behaviour to increased key stage 2 performance. It also pointed out that school meals tend to be far healthier than packed lunches: only 1 per cent of packed lunches meet the nutritional standards set for school lunches. We know that for a number of children, this is the only hot meal that they get in a day.

Similarly, the support available under the health costs criteria provides vital help to people on a low income. People who meet various criteria can get support with dental charges, optical costs, wigs and travel costs. In England, some get free prescriptions. Unlike Scotland and other areas where prescriptions are free, they are paid for in England. Passported benefits thus provide a means of safeguarding the health of children and adults, and can be worth substantial amounts in cash terms. The CPAG in its evidence gave an example of a lone parent aged 37 with two school-age children and a two year-old, and her passported benefits were probably worth about £37 a week from the mixture of free school meals, prescription, dental costs, bus fares and eye-care, along with some discounts on travel, phone bill and leisure activities. So, knowing which of these benefits she will still be able to be entitled to as she moves into work will be absolutely vital in judging whether or not she will be better off in work, and whether work really does pay.

We know that the current system is not perfect. Some 20 per cent of children in poverty are not entitled to free school meals. But for those who are, the current loss of free school meals when the parents move into work is really quite a significant cliff edge; but at least at the moment that loss of support is offset by the extra payments in working tax credits, because the current system provides an income boost when parents move into work of 16 hours or more. But by contrast, the welfare White Paper suggestion that passported benefits would be withdrawn once the family reached a certain income level seems to have two problems. The first is in replicating the cliff edge. If entitlements were suddenly lost at an income threshold, that could have a disastrous effect on work incentives as well as family budgets, and a family with two children earning an extra pound a week could be in a state where they lose £18 per week in free school meals.

Secondly, if it was to be an income threshold, that appears to take no account of family size. So a mother of three would stand to lose much more as she reached the cliff edge than—for example—a mother with one child. The first mother’s work incentives would obviously be much worse.

Now we know that, again, the canny Minister has asked the Social Security Advisory Committee to consider these issues, which are clearly pretty challenging. So we may not have the answers today. Nevertheless, we would ask for two assurances and clarifications. First, will the commitment made by the Secretary of State in the White Paper that universal credit,

“will ensure that work always pays and is seen to pay”,

apply after the loss of passported benefits has been taken into account? Because it is unclear at the moment whether passported benefits have been included in the current impact assessment of work incentives under universal credit. As Citizens Advice says, the Government really do need to ensure that decisions about who is entitled to free school meals and help with health costs does not undermine universal credit principles—which we are all signed up to—of making work pay.

Secondly, can the Minister confirm that any calculation of total benefits for the purpose of the benefit cap, will not include amounts paid in lieu of passported benefits—or the value of those benefits—if they continue to be provided in kind?

Perhaps I may add two points of clarification. First, will the IT system be able to deal with passported benefits? Secondly, could the Minister help me with the definition of “spring” as he has rather helpfully done over “soon” and “very soon”? It does seem that unless we are clear before the Third Reading whether work really will pay—taking passported benefits into account—then it will be very difficult to measure whether this whole Bill will achieve the laudable aims that the Government have for it. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

Yes. I thank the noble Lord for that question. I have specifically asked the SSAC to cover the point of working with devolved Administrations when it comes up with its recommendations so that will be incorporated in its original review, let alone in our subsequent review.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, having learnt last week that the Minister is not a bad man, this week we learn that spring comes after winter and before summer. I have discovered that my education is absolutely complete. We welcome very much the assurance that at the point when he gets the report, he will be looking at this firm of the view that passported benefits should not undermine the incentives to work in the rest of the Bill. It may be no surprise but it is nice to have that—and the acknowledgement of the importance of making sure that any such passported benefits are spent on what they are needed for. Of course, the comment that these will not count towards the benefit cap is particularly welcome. With that, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.

Amendment 51B withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

My Lords, I have a few words to add to those of the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, about people in manual wheelchairs. I have been contacted by a number of disabled people recently who are very keen to get into work, but they have told me some heartbreaking stories of the hidden discrimination that they have faced. One young lady had very good skills and qualifications and she applied for more than 40 jobs but was turned away from each of them for some quite interesting reasons. It all boiled down to the fact that it would be too difficult to employ her. I think it was a case of providing a little extra support. We want to get that group of people into work and they want to be in work. It is important for them to be in work so that the rest of society can see their range of impairments and disabilities. That will encourage people to be much more open-minded. I am really concerned that we are not doing everything we can to ensure that that group of people get a fair crack of the whip.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, we support this group of amendments, which seeks to ensure that a person’s long-term health condition or impairment is taken into account, both when drawing up a claimant commitment and when considering compliance and, therefore, possible sanctions. Amendment 51CE requires that evidence from a claimant's own health professionals is part of any health assessment required in drawing up the work preparation requirements, along the lines set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and emphasised by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher.

The amendments affect both those claiming ESA and those who fail the assessment process and are asked to claim JSA instead. They apply to people with long-term physical or mental health conditions and impairments. I particularly bring to the attention of the Committee the fact that many of these long-term conditions also fluctuate, as has been mentioned, particularly things like multiple sclerosis. As the Committee will know, MS is twice as prevalent in women as it is in men, so it will excuse us taking a moment on it. Some long-term conditions, such as relapse-remitting MS, also happen to have what can appear to be very non-specific symptoms, such as fatigue, generalised pain and cognitive difficulties. It is vital that the assessors understand those, along the lines mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and that the advisers take full account of the claimant’s own physician.

The DWP note states:

“Claimants with a health condition, or who are undergoing regular treatment to manage their health condition (but do not have limited capability for work) will be required to provide evidence of any limitations on what work (hours, nature of work, and location) they are capable of doing. This will be taken into account when setting … requirements”.

However, as has already been touched on, if a claimant raises reasonable objections to their work availability and work-search requirements, although those will be considered by the adviser, where there is no agreement, the claimant can only get them reviewed by another officer. That was mentioned earlier by my noble friend Lord McKenzie. That falls short of a proper right of appeal.

As we know, the process for assessing whether someone has limited capability for work is not perfect. It is not easy. Will the Minister update us on the implementation of the year 2 recommendations from the Harrington review following last month’s closing date for evidence? This continued process and the very real concerns that it is causing disabled people mean that it is important that long-term health conditions are considered when the claimant is asked to sign up to that claimant commitment or when good cause is being considered as to whether a sanction should be imposed for failure to comply.

Even if the review process is perfect, there will still be some people with long-term health conditions who are able to undertake work search but who need their conditions to be taken into account. They may, for example, be able to work very competently and fully but for only part of the day or a few days a week from time to time. In other words, they can work well but not necessarily on a sustainable basis. The resulting absences or the requirement for additional time to travel to work or extra support at work need to be taken fully into account when assessing both their search for jobs or subsequent work record. The descriptors relating to fluctuating conditions will be crucial in assisting the assessors.

Because the claimant commitment is new, we do not know the extent to which DWP advisers will take long-term or fluctuating conditions into account. There is a precedent for health conditions to be taken into account when good cause for turning down a job is considered. Those are already set out and include,

“any condition … that suggests that a particular job or carrying out a jobseeker’s direction, would be likely to cause you excessive physical or mental stress or significant harm to your health”.

The draft regulations do not list how this issue will be dealt with under universal credit. Will the Minister outline what is intended in this regard?

I want to finish by bringing to the attention of the Committee the concerns of Scope, which is very worried about the proposals as they stand. It fears that,

“there will not be adequate safeguards to ensure that sanctions are not applied to disabled people who are unable to meet the conditions due to factors relating to their impairment or condition”.

Scope is,

“not convinced that applying long-term sanctions … will incentivise those to comply after the sanction has been introduced”.

Moreover, Scope is,

“deeply concerned that the use of stricter sanctions will impact upon disabled people receiving JSA”.

After all, sanctions are most likely to affect those who did not fully understand that penalties could be imposed. This frequently involves claimants who already face multiple barriers to work, including various disabilities.

Scope also believes that there is little to suggest that sanctioning such claimants in this way will actually do much to change behaviour when a claimant, perhaps with a learning disability, has not understood why they were sanctioned in the first place. Scope is concerned that conditionality requirements and sanctions, as has been mentioned by other noble Lords this afternoon, will not be applied to disabled people until there has been proper consideration of need. A thorough assessment of need and barriers to finding work must be carried out before any decision is taken to apply a sanction. I look forward to hearing from the Minister how he responds to the concerns raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hollins and Lady Meacher, and other noble Lords who have spoken.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I apologise. I should have put a couple of questions to the Minister. How will care leavers be treated in this system, and what additional support and flexibility might they expect to be shown? Perhaps he might prefer to write to me on those two points.