Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

Before we move to the rest of the debate, could we please give way to those noble Lords who have tabled amendments? I would like to hear what they have to say.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 21, tabled in my name, from personal experience. The richness of the debate today shows that, even in your Lordships’ Chamber, we all have completely different experiences of how we access a GP practice.

I tabled this amendment partly from personal experience, trying to look at how we provide continuous care to a patient. As for my own experience, I am disabled, not sick, but I have had some very interesting experiences of interacting with doctors. Fairly recently, I was asked by a doctor how I caught spina bifida and had to explain to him that it was congenital. As for my husband’s experience of the healthcare system, he had a spinal cord injury in 1984 and, at a recent visit, was continually asked whether it was in 1884 that he had his accident—I know he looks good for his age, but not that good. This is not to be flippant, which I have been accused of before. It is actually to try to ensure that we have proper continuity of care for a person who wishes to end their life.

My amendment is also grounded in coercion detection and the limitations of any capacity assessment. When I tabled it, I was thinking that perhaps a GP could provide extra knowledge to contribute to the decision that was made. But then I heard of the experience of my noble friend Lady Falkner, which is absolutely appalling. It shows that there is far more work we need to do, not just on the National Health Service but on making sure we provide the right care. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, talked about the NHS we wish to have. Well, this might be a chance to think about the NHS we wish to have.

I take this opportunity to welcome my new noble friend Lady Gerada and the experience she brings to the Chamber. I have to say that it has left me slightly more confused. I have amendments on data recording, which we will be debating later. Her comments show that data recording and sharing is really important. The part I got a bit confused about was that, if there is a named clinician as part of that process, does that not ultimately feed in to the points that have been made today? I would welcome the chance to discuss that with her outside the Chamber.

Continuity of care is really important, and how it relates to improved patient outcomes. In 2012, 56.7% of patients had a preferred GP, but that is declining. There is a link between your preferred GP and being able to access that GP. The decline has happened regardless of baseline continuity, rural or urban location or level of deprivation. Providing a better experience to patients will make those final weeks and months better for them. The Royal College of General Practitioners published excellent work in 2021 on why the patient’s relationship with their general practitioner is so important. Research on coercion and undue influence demonstrates that standard capacity assessments, while necessary, are not currently sufficient to identify subtle forms of coercion. That is why I tabled an amendment.

In response to the comments of my noble friend Lord Pannick, about what happens if a GP dies, I am happy to be corrected, but I thought the provision in the Bill about your doctor dying would cover a general practitioner as well as any other doctor involved in the process.

What we are talking about here are really complex decisions. Consulting an established GP or GP practice might mean that they possess the nuanced knowledge which would help somebody make a choice. The requirement that GPs confirm that they have a good understanding of the individual’s personal circumstances represents, to me, a better form of safeguard, ensuring that this knowledge actually exists. We cannot assume anything during this process. The assessment should provide abuse detection capacity unavailable in other types of consultations. For individuals whose care is family dependent, the home visit element—which I had, not so long ago—can play an important part in identifying coercion. If the debate has raised nothing else today, it is that this is a really complicated issue which needs much further work.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps I may just ask a question on that. Everyone believes a GP should be able to conscientiously object. But, in all of this, I have not heard an answer to what happens in that circumstance. Surely, we need a circumstance, as happens today, involving a team-based approach, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, said. Otherwise, you could have formed a great relationship with a GP who then conscientiously objects—which we think is absolutely suitable—withdraws himself or herself from the situation and can no longer take part in it. Surely a team-based approach is the better approach.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

The comments made by my noble friend Lady Gerada explaining the team-based approach seem very sensible in terms of providing that continuity of care. I am very lucky that I see the same GP every time I go; it is interesting to understand that not everybody experiences that. I am not absolutely welded to it being a single GP. For me, it is about ensuring that we have continuity of care and the right support for an individual, and doing it in the right way that enables them to make the best choice, while not experiencing any coercion in making that decision. The more frequent contact means that a GP or a practice may be able to understand some of the really difficult family complications that we absolutely know go on.

Many noble colleagues who worked on the then Domestic Abuse Bill will see that coercion can be very subtle and understated and happens in numerous different ways. We have a duty to make this Bill the safest Bill in the world. The noble and learned Lord will say that it is. We slightly disagree on it being the safest Bill in the world, but we have a duty to make it safer.

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Moved by

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

22: Clause 1, page 1, line 12, at end insert—
“(e) is not a serving prisoner, and(f) is not detained by a hospital order,”

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 22, 24, 30C, 308, 347 and 458. I tabled these amendments after looking at data from other jurisdictions and listening to debates in another place. These amendments are probing. I want to be clear that they are here to invite debate not on the death penalty, abortion rights or who can become pregnant but merely on the groups and how they are impacted by the Bill.

With regard to my amendments on prisoners, those on remand and defendants on bail, there could be seen to be a conflict between prisoners’ rights to autonomy and the state’s duty to administer punishment. I was privileged to visit a young offender institution recently with the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award, which I chair. It is always very interesting to visit prisoners in young offender institutions and see the life that they live. UK staff are trained to spot prisoners who are at risk of bullying, suicide or self-harm. But I would like to understand—including in the context of what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester raised about prisoners’ access to primary care—how this would work in practice and which doctors would be allowed to have a conversation with prisoners.

Those deprived of liberty can be very vulnerable and prone to suicide. As we have heard, they could also experience a lack of care and palliative care. Yoann Della Croce argues that while prisoners in Switzerland should have the same level of care as the general population, assisted dying is a liberty that should not be extended to prisoners.

There are many international examples. Peter Vogt, a prisoner with kidney and heart disease in Switzerland, applied for euthanasia in 2023 due to physical and mental suffering, citing a life of “vegetating behind walls”. As of August 2020, three prisoners in Canadian federal prisons had received MAID. The process for these cases is complex, involving unique barriers such as bureaucratic hurdles and concerns about voluntariness and confidentiality in correctional settings.

This issue is not without controversy. Quadriplegic Marin Eugen Sabau requested euthanasia in 2022 after being shot and paralysed by police while being arrested. Due to the Spanish Government’s wording of the assistive Bill around incurable and unbearable permanent conditions, he was successful in requesting euthanasia. After initiating procedures in July 2022, and approval by the guarantee and evaluation commission of Catalonia, the process was suspended as a result of private and public prosecutors filing several appeals. Despite this, these were dismissed and the man’s euthanasia was carried out a month later.

In Belgium, Frank Van Den Bleeken asked for approval for euthanasia. It was initially granted, but the decision was later reversed. Similarly, in 2018, a Swiss inmate made a request to die through the EXIT society, because of an incurable lung disease and mental illness, arguing that refusing him access to assistance constituted psychological torture.

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[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for this thoughtful and considered debate. As ever in your Lordships’ Chamber, the debate did not go quite the way I was expecting. This has been quite a catch-all group trying to cover a number of very complicated issues. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for summing up. I will not seek to sum up all the contributions, but I will pick up a few points.

The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, asked me about pregnancy. There is very little data on the numbers and one of the challenges is that recording and reporting are very different in different jurisdictions. In somewhere such as Oregon, where the data is destroyed a year after death, it is hard to follow up and interrogate the information. Many jurisdictions around the world do not require a pregnancy test, but that puts a lot more pressure on doctors as it is then up to them to assume or guess whether or not a woman is pregnant. Whether she is showing or not, do they accept the request for assisted dying? It is really worrying for those doctors, because if it is later found out that the woman was pregnant in jurisdictions where there is a penalty for the doctors, they might find themselves less likely to want to carry out an assisted death.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

Does the noble Baroness not accept that there are certain cancers that will give a positive pregnancy test and also be killing the patient, in a very serious condition?

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

I thank the noble Lord; I will cover that later in my summing up, if that is okay, but I will come to back it. What happens in other jurisdictions makes it really difficult for doctors, which means that we need clarity in this Bill about what would happen in those situations.

Many noble Lords discussed the vulnerability of prisoners. This debate has shown that it is not that simple. I have visited many prisons and young offender institutions over the years and they are all very different places. I have met many people who have hope and some who do not. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, articulated my thoughts on the circumstances in which prisoners find themselves very well.

I debated long and hard whether to use this example. The noble Lord, Lord Farmer, talked about moral hazard. There is the case in Australia of Daniel Hume, who was six years into a 30-year sentence for paedophilia. He had a terminal condition and exercised his right to die. His daughter said that she and other victims felt robbed by him being able to access assisted dying. This highlights the complexity of the issues we are dealing with. I hope I am a kind person—I believe in rehabilitation for prisoners—but these are not easy things that we are trying to sort out or get to the bottom of. I have very complicated views on all these issues, as I know many noble Lords do. It is absolutely something that we have to come back to.

I was probably expecting the answer from the Minister on Articles 8 and 14. I am not convinced that we have Article 2 quite right. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Winston, for his intervention and I would be very happy to take his advice. I tried to keep my opening speech very close to 10 minutes, rather than the 15 minutes I am allowed, so there are lots of areas I was unable to discuss in my opening speech. I accept what the noble Lord said—he has far more experience of pregnancy than I do—but that just throws another complication into the mix in respect of what we are trying to sort out. I will welcome his advice on rewording my amendments, should I choose to come back with them.

I would like to thank the noble and learned Lord, as well as the honourable Member for Batley and Spen, who I am meeting next week to discuss some of my amendments. I hope that we can get a bit more clarity in that meeting on the amendments we are discussing. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Mackinlay, for his intervention. I think there is a line—I am sorry, I am jumping back to pregnancy—when it comes to what we do and at what point we do it. I believe that the noble and learned Lord and I have agreed to disagree on the safeguards in the Bill.

I would like to make a correction. I am serious about my amendments, although I could have worded them better. I did not intend for men to have a pregnancy test, and I did not intend to get into a debate about age and the pregnancy test. The reason why I tabled the amendment on a pregnancy test was to allow women to understand all the implications of what they are getting into and to be able to make a choice. They may or may not choose to do something differently with that information.

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate this afternoon. With that in mind, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 22 withdrawn.