Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

3: Schedule 1, page 140, line 5, at end insert—
“Children under 181 (1) Civil legal services in relation to advice and proceedings where a child is, or proposes to be, the applicant or respondent in proceedings, or where the child is represented by a legal guardian, including—
(a) private family law;(b) any benefit, allowance, payment, credit or pension under—(i) the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992,(ii) the Jobseekers Act 1995,(iii) the State Pension Credit Act 2002,(iv) the Tax Credits Act 2002,(v) the Welfare Reform Act 2007,(vi) the Welfare Reform Act 2011, or(vii) any other enactment relating to social security; (c) all areas of education law not otherwise covered in this Schedule;(d) all areas of housing law not otherwise covered in this Schedule;(e) all areas of debt-related disputes not otherwise covered in this Schedule;(f) all areas of immigration and asylum law not otherwise covered in this Schedule;(g) all areas of clinical negligence law not otherwise covered in this Schedule;(h) all areas of consumer law not otherwise covered in this Schedule;(i) appeals to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority;(j) civil legal services relating to a review or appeal under section 11 or 13 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007; and(k) civil legal services relating to an appeal to the Supreme Court.”

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

My Lords, I speak to the amendment in my name and in those of the noble Baronesses, Lady Eaton and Lady Benjamin. I am also very proud to say that the name of the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, was included on this amendment, and I know that I speak for all those in this Chamber when I say that he will be greatly missed.

This amendment would make legal aid available for children in all current cases, including when they are victims of medical negligence. At present, legal aid helps just over 40,000 children every year who have civil justice legal problems in their own right. If the Bill is left as it stands, legal aid for around 35,000 children every year will continue, but legal aid will not be available for around 6,000 children under 18 who would qualify if the current rules remained in place. The Government have so far not explained why those 6,000 children will be treated differently from other children who have problems under the same categories of law.

This is now the 40th day of debate in your Lordships' House and in the other place. I do not believe that the Government have been able to explain the criteria that will decide, for example, why 220 children will continue to receive legal aid support in cases about their education but 110 will not. This is from among the numbers remaining after the Government conceded last June that legal aid would be kept for cases involving children with special educational needs—numbers obtainable only through a freedom of information request by the Children’s Society.

When put on the spot about which children will lose legal aid, the Government say that they will be able to apply to be treated as exceptional cases under Clause 10. I do not believe that there should be any confusion or delay as to whether a child under 18 is entitled to legal advice and representation in British civil justice. Children are not adults—they do not have the capacity to represent themselves or to interpret the thousands of pages of laws and regulations that affect them.

The question of a child’s capacity to represent themselves is explicitly recognised and provided for in international law. The Children’s Commissioner for England, Dr Maggie Atkinson, wrote to the Lord Chancellor to warn that denying children a voice in legal proceedings would be in breach of the European convention. She said:

“Children, by virtue of their age and capacity, will not be able to present their case effectively in the majority of proceedings … Children’s need for legal aid in civil cases where they are a party should not be viewed as ‘exceptional’”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

The most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York may be disappointed to know that he may have been absent to defeat us on that point at an earlier stage. As the noble Lord, Lord Bach, has indicated, the Government will look at these matters between now and consideration in the other place.

The only outstanding point that I wanted to cover was that made by the noble Lords, Lord Thomas and Lord Avebury, about the balance between CFAs and legal aid in injury cases. Although I am not a lawyer, I would say that, on balance, CFAs are the most effective way of taking these cases. It is worth remembering that 82 per cent of cases are already covered by CFAs. People are not left abandoned on a lonely sea—the process works.

It is always difficult to draw lines and easy to say that the lines have been drawn in the wrong place. As I said in opening, the amount of coverage for young people in this area is completely different from what was suggested in some speeches today. We believe that between the coverage of scope that we put into this Bill, the workings of exceptional funding and the availability of wider advice, there will not be the kind of consequences that have been suggested. I also make it clear that we do not think that Amendments 3, 4 and 5 are consequential, so if noble Lords do press them, we would want to test the opinion of the House on each. However, I hope that the noble Baroness will agree to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comments and consideration. The House appreciates that he has perhaps been given little or no room for manoeuvre. I would also like to thank all Members who have tried to ensure that children’s interests are safeguarded in this Bill. Most of all, I thank Members on the government Benches who have understood the problems with this legislation right from the start and have been prepared to raise them. We all understand that this is a very difficult thing to do. However, because of the very nature of the legislation and its impact on those unable in law to represent themselves, we need to ask the other place to take another look. Therefore, I wish to test the opinion of the House.