Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Monday 15th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 219 and to reinforce all the powerful arguments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove. I am not a lawyer, but it seems bizarre that sex and gender have explicitly not been recognised in existing hate crime legislation. Crimes motivated by hostility to disability, transgender identity, race, religion and sexual orientation are all recognised, but not those motivated by sex and gender. Yet, in a report published in January this year by UN Women UK, 71% of the 1,000 women polled had experienced sexual harassment in a public place, rising to a staggering 97% of women under the age of 25.

This is made worse by the sad fact that there is widespread scepticism among women and girls about reporting violence and abuse to the police because they have no confidence that their claims will be acted on or even taken seriously. Violence against women and girls does not occur in a vacuum, of course. Hostility towards women and girls creates a culture in which violence and abuse is tolerated and repeated. That culture has to be changed, so a reform to legislation, which this amendment proposes and which I hope the Government will support, must be accompanied by a transformation of attitudes within the police.

I believe that there are encouraging signs that this is happening, albeit slowly. I was fortunate to attend the briefing that has been mentioned on this amendment given by the former chief superintendent of police for Nottinghamshire, Sue Fish—a pioneer of this approach —and Stuart Henderson, North Yorkshire Police’s hate crime co-ordinator, who is currently delivering this policy. It was absolutely fascinating to learn how much of a difference can be made when the leadership of the force is committed to driving a policy forward. A number of other forces are doing the same, and I commend this approach to the Metropolitan police force as it struggles to respond to the tsunami of criticism on gender-based hate crimes.

Because not all police forces have signed up, there is no consistency of reporting or approach to these crimes. That is why the amendment is necessary: to ensure that every woman and girl right across the country can feel confident that the role of misogyny in what they experience on a daily basis will at last be taken seriously and dealt with appropriately. It is also necessary because it would require police forces to record instances of motivation by hostility to the victim’s sex or gender, enabling them to monitor much more effectively the incidence of these crimes and so address and prevent them. Evaluation of this approach in Nottinghamshire showed improved victim confidence to come forward and report crimes, and benefits to the local police in their efforts to combat these crimes. It is a great tribute to Sue Fish that she persisted in pursuing the need for this change, and to Nottinghamshire Police for embracing it as pioneers.

Finally, I am aware that the Government have asked the Law Commission to look at this, and it is due to report imminently. I hope the Government will not use that as an excuse to kick this into the long grass; even if the Law Commission reports soon, too many of its reports are ignored by the Government and not implemented. In replying today, I hope the Minister will acknowledge the urgency of this issue and commit to concrete measures, as set out in the amendment, to address it speedily.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I assure my noble friend Lord Russell of Liverpool that I intend to be brief. I speak to Amendment 219A, to which my name is attached. Sadly, as the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, has pointed out, violence against women and girls is still a major issue in this country. I do not think a week goes by without us reading or hearing about some terrible act.

A few years ago, I, like many others, would have conflated the words “sex” and “gender”. We discuss the gender pay gap, where actually we probably mean a sex pay gap. It has become clear to me that, as language evolves, sex and gender mean very different things. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, has outlined this amendment very clearly, but I also believe that adding “gender” is unnecessary, as it could add further confusion to an area of law in which existing terminology is inconsistent and at times contested. Just in the short debate we have had tonight, we have seen that there is plenty more to discuss on the definition. I think we all agree that the protection of all people is important, and we should promote dignity, but that should be done without confusion.

I believe that we should wait for the Law Commission report, which I hope will be published soon, because it is a significant piece of work which will help inform the debate further.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, time is against us, so I will be really brief. From all our debates so far, I am convinced that the issue of inconsistent policing is the one where I would put most of my money in terms of improving the situation. Her Majesty’s Inspectorate, which looked at the way police forces dealt with violence to women and girls, was very persuasive about the hugely patchy approach of police forces.

As far as the Law Commission is concerned, anyone reading its work will see that it is complex and that it did not come to an easy conclusion when it gave a provisional view that it would be helpful to add to the categories in the way suggested. Most notably, it identified the risk that hate crime laws could prove unhelpful in certain contexts such as domestic abuse and sexual offences. It then went on to quote evidence from the Fawcett Society, which argues that all sexual and domestic abuse offences committed by men against women should be understood as inherently misogynistic. There is therefore a risk that sex-based hate crime might disrupt this understanding because it would require juries to seek express evidence of misogyny in these contexts, potentially causing some offences to be non-misogynistic where there is insufficient evidence of this.

I am not qualified to comment on the detail, but it is clear that this is a complex issue, as are the issues of sex and gender. Given that the Law Commission will report by the end of the year, the key thing we want to hear from the Minister is that the Government will take the report seriously and it will not join other Law Commission reports in the long grass.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 22nd October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I start by drawing your attention to my entry in the register of interests. I speak in today’s debate as an atheist, a disabled person and someone who has watched both her parents die.

I oppose this Bill because I am a disabled person. I will explain the three different ways I am treated, which gives me a unique perspective and comparison. The first is as a Paralympian: I represented my country with great pride and I am treated very well because of it. The second is as a parliamentarian, where people like or do not like me based on my opinion. That is very simple. But the third is far more complicated, and that is as a disabled person. It is where I experience most and significant discrimination.

We do not live in an equal society. This Chamber has spent considerable time looking at coercive control. Why do we accept that in domestic abuse legislation but assume that in this legislation it would never happen?

We have to look at the wider context of life for many disabled people in this country. I cannot get on many forms of public transport without the approval of a non-disabled person. Airlines ask me to fill in forms that ask whether my impairment is offensive to others. Based on that form, they decide whether I am allowed to fly. In recent times, we have challenged airlines that tell me I am not allowed to fly my own because I am not a responsible adult. We have an unemployment gap. Care packages are being cut. During the pandemic, “do not attempt resuscitation” orders were put on hundreds—that we know about—of disabled people with no underlying health conditions. The Government have a strategy that recognises this inequality.

People have asked me why disabled people are not protesting outside in greater numbers. First, it is hard to get to London on public transport, but the other point is very simple: because of the pandemic. Those who are noting little opposition outside simply do not understand the risks some disabled people have to take every single day of their lives just to live. There are many organisations around disability, but there are 12 run by disabled people, andhey do not support this legislation. They are concerned about the potential backlash of it, and organisations run by disabled people really struggle to get any funding whatever.

As a disabled person, I have been told that people like me should not be allowed to have children. When people list the things that they could not bear to live with, such as incontinence, it upsets me, because what does that say about me? I am incontinent. Does that mean that my life has less value? I certainly do not feel any loss of dignity when I catheterise myself or have to use suppositories. This is something that can be very easily managed.

Many people have also said to me, “If my life was like yours, I would kill myself.” I have a huge amount of privilege in my life, but if people think this, it becomes very easy for them to conflate disability and a six-month diagnosis, and decide that we have no right to live. Serious consideration and sense check must be given to conscious and unconscious bias before the Bill can proceed.

It is not a simple Bill. Cambridge University Press has shown research on the impact on doctors of legalising assisted dying, and in 2019, the Royal College of Physicians noted that 24.6% of doctors were willing to do it, but only 5% of palliative care physicians. If we look at other jurisdictions, Belgium and the Netherlands, it is simply not right to say that where the legislation exists there is good palliative care. There has been no growth in palliative care in those two countries since 2012. In Canada, only 15% of people can access publicly funded palliative care at home.

We have heard a lot today that there is great public support for the Bill—around 80%—but that drops considerably when its details are better understood. Some 57% do not know what “assisted dying” means and 10% of those who believe that the law should change believe it actually means better hospice care. I believe it is fundamentally wrong to have assisted dying on the NHS when there is no right to palliative care. We must improve that. This is not a modest Bill and I do not support it.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 10th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Campbell of Surbiton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 46, I will speak also to my Amendment 47 and to Amendment 45 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, to which my amendments are attached and which I strongly support.

My amendments bring controlling or coercive behaviour within the scope of Section 76 of the Serious Crime Act 2015. Amendment 46 mirrors Amendment 4, which was considered and overwhelmingly agreed to by the House on Monday.

I had intended to divide the House on Amendment 46 if the Minister could not accept it. I will not do so for one reason, and one reason alone. Just this morning, I learned that it could jeopardise Amendment 45, which is supported by the Government. I have no wish to risk another important amendment and potentially lose both it and my amendment. I have great admiration for the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and support her amendment overwhelmingly. Noble Lords will undoubtedly understand my reasons. I had not expected that kind of unwelcome surprise today.

Controlling or coercive behaviour, which is part of the definition of domestic abuse under Clause 1 of the Bill, is an offence under Section 76 of the Serious Crime Act. Such behaviour is unfortunately a common form of abuse by carers. Amendment 45 amends the definition of “personally connected” in Section 76 to align it with Clause 2. The importance of including disabled people applies equally to the offence under Section 76. I set this out extensively on Monday and will not rehearse those arguments. It is worth noting that the draft guidance on Clause 2 relies on the guidance on Section 76 to explain controlling or coercive behaviour. They are complementary.

The two sets of provisions are totally interrelated. These amendments would ensure they remain consistent and ensure the coherence of the statutory abuse regime. It is very disappointing to not be able to follow that through for the protection and safety of disabled people if these amendments do not go through today. I await the response of the Minister in the sincere hope that she will accept these amendments. I beg to move.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I speak to Amendments 46 and 47, which are in the name of my noble friend Lady Campbell of Surbiton and to which my name is also added. Because Amendments 46 and 47 are an amendment to 45—and I do not wish to quote sections of the Companion to the Standing Orders to your Lordships’ House—I would like to make clear that those listed as signatories have been put in the unenviable position of making the heartbreaking decision of whether to divide the House and risk preventing the valuable amendment put by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, from being passed.

In speaking after my noble friend, I do not wish to reiterate what has already been well articulated. I would like to thank the staff of your Lordships’ House, the disabled peoples’ organisations and many disabled women for the considerable amount of work they have put into this Bill. If there is one thing I ask of the Minister and the Bill team, it is that, when legislation that has such an impact on disabled people is being considered, disabled peoples’ organisations are expressly and extensively consulted. The added issues disabled people face should always be included.

On Monday it felt that, while we might not have convinced Her Majesty’s Government of the need to include disabled people in this Bill, the Chamber strongly supported my noble friend’s amendments. I would like to thank the 318 Peers who voted to support and include disabled people this week. I am expecting that there will be much support as we debate this group, but there will be push-back from Her Majesty’s Government.

Having re-read Hansard several times this week, I fear that we still have to convince Her Majesty’s Government of the need to protect disabled people. It is important and welcome that controlling or coercive behaviour is more widely understood across society, but that same protection does not appear to be afforded to disabled people. For that, I am extremely disappointed.

I wholly, but with a sad heart, support my noble friend’s decision tonight. As I mentioned at the beginning of my speech, my noble friend has been put in the unenviable position of having to explain to disabled people who experience abuse in a domestic setting—whom she has spent a considerable part of her working life supporting and protecting—that the politics and procedures we are operating under have excluded their place in the Bill.

I know from extensive discussions with those involved in these amendments that, in accepting and supporting the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, which I absolutely do, if the House were divided we might put Amendment 45 at risk. There is always a price to pay by some in bringing legislation. Tonight, and in this instance, the price is being heavily paid by disabled people.

[Baroness Bertin (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 45, but I do want to reference the noble Baronesses, Lady Campbell of Surbiton and Lady Grey-Thompson. Their words have been very powerful, and we should never forget about the rights of disabled people. We should always try and give them a voice and make sure they are heard, because they are not heard enough in my view.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 8th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, and I am pleased to stand in support of Amendment 162, which is tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Morgan, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Crawley and Lady Grey-Thompson. It aims to close the criminal loophole that the ease of smartphones and modern technology has afforded perpetrators of domestic violence.

In her introduction to the amendment, my noble friend Lady Morgan set out the sheer scale of how simple threats to share sexual images or videos without consent are being used as a tool of coercive control and domestic abuse with devastating effect. Sadly, this seems to be a growing problem. The time is late, and I do not propose to repeat the statistic that we have already heard: that 4.4 million people are affected. The impact of these threats from current or ex-partners has huge negative results on mental and emotional well-being, creating enormous fear and anxiety, and, sadly, they are very effective. Four out of five women surveyed changed the way they behaved as a result of threats. They feel ashamed, anxious, isolated, frightened and even suicidal.

On Second Reading, my noble friend the Minister acknowledged these concerns and highlighted that the Law Commission has launched a review of the law relating to the non-consensual taking and sharing of intimate images, including, but not limited to, the revenge porn offence in Section 33 of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015. However, as she has already said, waiting for the results of the review may take a long time, because once it is concluded it can take up to six months for the Government to provide an interim response to the findings and a full year before a final formal response. While the Government often accept Law Commission findings, as your Lordships well know, they are then subject to the Government finding a suitable piece of legislation and parliamentary time to make the legal changes enabling a recommendation to come into force. As has already been mentioned, it could be years, so why wait when this Bill provides the perfect opportunity for the change today? We do not need a review to tell us that this is a serious issue that needs to be dealt with, as do our concerns about the effectiveness of the law as it stands. I ask the Minister: why not accept this amendment, even if it is not perfect? This change, which we can make now, will provide victims with the support they need to fight back against such abusive, despicable behaviour as revenge porn and give the police the power they require to be able to act.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I draw your Lordships’ attention to my declaration of interest, in that I am a vice-chair of the Local Government Association.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and others who have put their name to this amendment have comprehensively covered it and I commend them all on their ongoing commitment in this area. It is a privilege to add my name to this amendment. I also thank Refuge for providing an overwhelming picture of the scale and impact of this threat. The data and figures are compelling.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Friday 16th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Popat (Con)]

My Lords, may we have the privilege of listening to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson?

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

Thank you, my Lords. I have two very small amendments in this group, Amendments 161 and 167, which refer to the Suicide Act 1961 (Amendment) Act 2015. They merely serve to strengthen the declaration in relation to commensurate capacity.

On the main subject of this grouping, if I supported the Bill I would use the word dying because it suggests compassion, caring and a peaceful death. If suicide was associated with the Bill it would perhaps trigger some suicide prevention measures, which would increase the safety of the Bill and give comfort to a number of people. If the final action is to be taken by the individual, not by the doctor, surely that is suicide. I offer a challenge to your Lordships’ House on terminology. For years, disabled people were called not normal— they still are. They were called deformed, spastic, cripples and handicapped. There are also nasty words around race and culture. That is not a reason not to change and move on, or not to improve the language that we use. If we are honest about what the Bill is and if we are talking about autonomy, the word to use is suicide.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I am well aware that the Committee wishes to move on, so I appeal to its forbearance to allow me to make a couple of remarks. It is 10 years and two days since I lodged formally my proposal in the Scottish Parliament, a precursor to Margo MacDonald’s Bill. My proposal was the Right to Die for the Terminally Ill Bill, and I was well aware at that point of the criticisms of those who opposed it: that I was using emotionally charged language or euphemism, or softer language than it necessarily should be. The context in the proposal referred to physician-assisted suicide. Over the 10 years I have had an interest in this, having lodged a proposal in a legislature with a distinctly different background from the legislation on suicide in England and Wales, I have come to the conclusion that the terminology and definition in this Bill is absolutely correct.

Over the last 10 years, I have been struck that those people who would wish to use the protections under such a Bill—I believe that they are protections—are the least suicidal people you could find. They are people who love life and strive to live as long as they possibly can, but their life is being robbed from them because of a terminal illness. They come to the conclusion that they wish to have control in their remaining days, whereas control is being removed from them. I agree absolutely that language and terminology are important, and that truthfulness is vital. I am slightly upset when it is alleged that some of us who are on a different side in this debate are less truthful than others. Second Reading was a profoundly important moment, when we respected each side in the debate. Having used the different terms myself, over those 10 years I have come to these conclusions.

--- Later in debate ---

The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the later one in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, go some way to off-setting this very pessimistic Bill. The proponents of the Bill have always argued that their intention is for it to apply to only a very small number of people. That intention will be far better realised if prognosis is set with a much smaller time limit of weeks or, okay, maybe months, but not six months. I urge your Lordships to support this amendment and others of its kind.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

My Lords, I wish to raise two brief points. The first is on the rate of diagnostic error, which has already been mentioned. The Royal College of Pathologists gave evidence to the Select Committee looking at the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, which heard that diagnostic errors are common. The report says:

“The Royal College of Pathologists drew attention to ‘a 30% error rate in the medically-certified cause of death’, with ‘significant errors (i.e. misdiagnosis of a terminal illness resulting in inappropriate treatment) in about 5% of cases’”.

Secondly, I wish to raise a point of clarification with my noble friend Lady Meacher. She does not appear to be in her place, but it is a question that applies probably equally to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. My noble friend talked about autonomy at the point that somebody chooses the right to end their own life. To me, that suggests that the drugs or medication would be in the person’s possession and in their home, as it is in Oregon. I should like some clarification on whether the Bill is suggesting that the person would have the drugs available to them in their home. For me, it is important to understand the timeline of how the decision-making process will take place and whether there would be a tiered approach. An awful lot of people who write to me assume that, if the Bill becomes law and they are able to choose the time that they end their life, it will be in their own home and with their friends and family around them, not in a medical facility, and that they will not have to go through a huge series of hoops in those final moments. It is really important for me to understand whether these drugs that will kill people will be in a person’s possession in their home.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, has spoken movingly from her own experience and, indeed, her expertise. I am sure I am not alone in respecting her greatly for that and for ensuring that this House hears the views of people in the disabled community who are worried that this is a thin end of a wedge.

I suffer from a life-limiting illness. In most cases, it is not terminal but it is degenerative if it is not got under control. To answer one of the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, I, too, have the risk of catching a very serious infection because my immune system is compromised by the medication I am on. I would not expect anything short-term such as that to be considered by my medical practitioners—or even by myself, as happened to me at Christmas—as being part of the longer-term degeneration of a terminal condition. It would be worrying if we believed that the Bill was giving that thought some traction. The timescale for approval reflection within the Bill means that in the case of a temporary or short-term illness, any medical practitioner would be likely to advise someone that they should not be making a decision at that time because it would not necessarily mean that the rapid progress of the disease itself was an issue.

I want to make some very specific points on some of the amendments in this group. First, I am concerned about the impracticality of Amendment 13. Often when someone discovers that they are in the terminal stages of an illness, they will move to be with family; they are therefore likely to move GP. My mother, who died just before Christmas, had three GPs in the last stage of her life. She was at home. She then moved into a nursing home. She then had to move to another nursing home for more supportive care. She might have had four GPs had she moved to a hospice. Should Amendment 13 go through, I am concerned that that would have ruled her out from being able to make a decision, should she have desired it. I understand the intentions of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, in raising this, but the practicalities for many at the end of their lives mean that I think it is unworkable.

On Amendment 20, I hear everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, says but my counter to that is that a patient will listen to advice and a doctor will give them a wide range of advice on the likely progression of their disease and, indeed, any comorbidities. This is also moving into the area of Amendment 21. The evidence of where assisted dying happens, particularly in America, is that the time between somebody starting to get the initial advice and going through the process and, having concluded that, then deciding that the time is right to take their life is the exact reason why we need six months and not six weeks. A patient should reflect and make sure that what they are doing is right for them and at the right time. Often people who support the principle of assisted dying are worried about those last few weeks and want to have the safety net of the decision having been made by the professionals in their back pocket, so to speak, so that should their life become intolerable they do not have to start the process at that point. That is why either three months or six weeks will mean that a patient will not get the timescale they need to consider appropriately with their family, friends and medical practitioner whether this is the right thing for them.

I am perplexed by Amendments 22 and 45, which imply that treatment that delays the progression of a terminal condition would be considered an available treatment for a dying person and would therefore exclude them from having an assisted death if they rejected such a treatment. If I have read this right, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is arguing that it changes the fundamental right of a patient to refuse treatment because that treatment might increase the length of their life, even if the quality of that life were to be intolerable. For example, one reason that many people say that they would like assisted dying is that they do not want to go through another round of chemotherapy on a new drug, perhaps for the fourth or fifth time, and live with the very difficult consequences of that treatment. That is exactly what the Bill is about: patients coming to an informed decision about when they wish to end their life, even if another treatment is available, when medical practitioners have said that their condition is terminal.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Friday 18th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, the Bill that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, is proposing is simply not fit for purpose. However, this debate is an important one. It is too simplistic to suggest that this is simply a debate about compassion versus suffering. Making law is not a popularity contest, and we should not pass legislation based on emotion; it is about protecting the whole of society, not just the strong-willed and self-confident. The Supreme Court urged your Lordships’ Chamber to consider whether the law should be changed; it did not say that the current law does not work.

This Bill proposes a fundamental change in the relationship between doctors, patients and families. We have to recognise that not everyone’s motives are altruistic; not everyone has a caring family. People can be coerced. We do not live in a halcyon world where choice generally exists for everyone. Our position here in your Lordships’ Chamber gives us an extraordinary ability to make choices over every single aspect of our lives. We are privileged; we should not assume that everyone is in the same position as us. It is difficult to measure whether choice is being freely given or not. Will two doctors really have time accurately to assess this? For many people, life is something that happens to them or even passes them by. They have no choice—and, soon, they could have less.

The Bill suggests that people could be offered other alternatives—but what if you live in the wrong postcode or no alternative is available? Then there appears to be only one choice. In essence, it would be licensing assisted suicide within the National Health Service. The Bill does not contain safeguards; it has initial criteria, and no detail how those will operate. The Secretary of State may, if he wishes, issue a code of practice.

Some in favour of this Bill are expecting a Hollywood death, where you slip away, versus what is otherwise portrayed as a bad death. People need to know the practicalities of what this change in law could bring. Will it be at the exact time of their choosing? Will it be at home, or with family close by, or are there going to be a number of Dignitas-style facilities around the country? Peter from Redcar wrote to me and said that he believed it was the first step to euthanasia, especially as it coincides with current economic times.

We continually hear that this Bill is based on Oregon, not on Holland or Belgium, and we have been told that it is a modest Bill for a handful of people. Oregon is smaller than Yorkshire. Of course, the numbers are small, but there is a rising trend, and no audit is carried out about how requests for assisted suicide are handled. In 2012, the population of Oregon was 3 million, compared to 56 million in England and Wales—so we could be looking at 1,600 people per annum. This is not a modest number. I was very interested to listen to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, on Radio 4 this morning, and I am sorry that he is not in his place at the moment—

[Noble Lords]

There he is!

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

Apologies—the noble and learned Lord is not in the place where he was sitting earlier. I listened with great interest to what the noble and learned Lord said. He must stop being reluctant to discuss the precise figures. People need to know how many people this may affect.

Professor Theo Boer, a regulator of Dutch law, said that recent developments and extensions were not intended by the legislators who drafted the original law. We should listen to him.

Why are people worried? It is because many disabled people are not terminally ill. However, many terminally ill people experience some sort of impairment and there is a great deal of confusion around that. There is a myth that our lives are so tragic or painful that we must want to end them. Just this week I was told, “You must have wanted to kill yourself many times in your life”. No, I have not. I have experienced excruciating pain. When I was 19, I snapped a metal rod off my spine that came out through my skin, but I have never considered killing myself. The fact is, however, that many people expected that I would ask for that. What if those people were related to me?

Becky got in touch with me this morning and said that a doctor very recently told her—I quote verbatim—“You cost the NHS too much money. It would be better off if you were dead”. A mum wrote to me to tell me about her son who, at a low point in his life, expressed a desire not to carry on. She checked the criteria in the Bill and found that he would qualify. He is not terminally ill, as we think about it—he has severely complicated diabetes.

Some of the cases highlighted in the media concern people who are not terminally ill and would supposedly not fit the terms of the Bill. However, this raises concerns that this is just the tip of the iceberg or an attempt to soften public opinion. The charity Care has shown that those who support the Bill in principle change their mind when they are presented with the reality of assisted suicide. Then the percentage of those who support it drops from 73% to 43%.

Finally, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, wrote in his own inquiry, when referring to whether this provision was for disabled people:

“not at this moment in time”.

This is why I and many others are deeply worried.

Assisted Suicide

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Wednesday 5th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, the policy we are debating was subjected to a serious public consultation before being finalised. The CPS website states that nearly 5,000 responses were received and the draft policy was modified.

The early policy listed,

“a terminal illness; a severe and incurable physical disability; or a severe degenerative physical condition from which there was no possibility of recovery”,

as a mitigating factor. I am so relieved that this was removed. This was done because it was considered that it could have the unintended effect of discriminating against people who are seriously ill or disabled by implying that assisting their suicide was of less concern than assisting the suicides of other people, as my noble friend Lady Campbell said. Disabled people face this discrimination every single day of our lives. As a disabled campaigner, I know that we have fought paternalism.

I refer to this change to the draft policy because it illustrates a wider issue. Those who want a change to the law are anxious to reassure us that their demands are limited to people who are terminally ill and that others such as the chronically ill or disabled people should not feel at risk. This argument does not hold up, as Belgium has shown us. It is the designation of one group that causes concern.

The law we have applies equally to all of us, irrespective of age, gender, race or health. The law that we have rests, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has written, on a natural and easily recognisable frontier—the principle that we do not involve ourselves in bringing about the deaths of other people. Once we start redrawing the law arbitrarily around particular groups it becomes just a line in the sand. If it can apply to terminally ill people, why not chronically ill people? If chronically ill people, why not disabled people? Such a law is inherently unstable.

The need for equality of access and equality of protection was clearly recognised by the DPP when the policy was drawn up. We should recognise it if we should be asked, yet again, to consider legalising assisted suicide.

Social Welfare Law

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the debate tonight. It is a privilege to speak after the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Peterborough. I congratulate him on his fine maiden speech; he has chosen an interesting debate to start his career here. As these things work out, it is perhaps perfect timing. Over the weekend I started a hashtag, which was very complimentary on social media, entitled “Bishops”. I am not sure if I am the first to do this, but I will be adding to it happily later tonight after his fine maiden speech. I warmly welcome the right reverend Prelate to your Lordships’ House and look forward to his many future contributions.

After spending a significant amount of time working on the Welfare Reform Bill and because of the consequences of that, the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, I am grateful for what my noble friend Lord Low has done in this area and congratulate him on his commission’s work. On 21 January 2014 the New Law Journal stated that the Low Commission shines,

“much-needed light on the impact of the LASPO cuts on those largely poor and vulnerable people who up until nine months ago had legal aid as some kind of safety net”.

I do not think that anyone would have said that the system was perfect, but for disabled people it offered considerable help and support. That safety net is disappearing.

My noble friend’s work has not just shone a light on the system within which we are now operating, but has shown how real people are affected by legislation. I accept that when we are debating Bills it is hard to know how every person will be affected, but we are now starting to see it. My noble friend has provided some realistic and sensible proposals. He has not looked back to what some might call the halcyon days of legal aid, but importantly has looked forward. I hope that the Minister will look favourably at the suggestions that have been made. The Law Centres Network is just one organisation that has called for the recommendations to be implemented.

In the past two years we have seen what I believe are some of the biggest changes to the welfare system since its inception. Disabled people have been repeatedly affected by the changes, and not just in one area but in several. They are complex changes at that. I remember the noble Lord, Lord Freud, explaining to me during the Welfare Reform Bill that the new system around universal credit would be simpler, but it is by no means simple. While I have been disappointed that in this area there has been a continued failure to conduct a cumulative impact assessment, I understand why there has not been one. It would have made uncomfortable reading about how some of the most vulnerable people in our society are being treated. I accept that we are in tough economic times and agree that there was a need for looking at doing things in a different way.

One of the consequences of LASPO on disabled people, which has been raised with me by Unity Law, is that it has shifted the costs of civil litigation in respect of personal injury cases to the defendant company and done away with recoverable insurance premiums for claimants as a result. Because Equality Act cases do not include a claim for personal injury, but rather compensation for injury to feelings, and a request for reasonable adjustments, these cases are not cost-shifted and the insurance premium is needed to protect disabled people against the costs of losing.

I have met Chris Fry from Unity Law several times. He believes that if cost shifting applied to Equality Act discrimination claims, the legal aid budget would stretch further, because there would be no liability to third-party costs in failed cases. I realise that I am talking to many lawyers, and not for the first time do I regret studying only politics at university and not law. At this stage I will not go into further detail, but there are some really positive things that we can do in this area to mitigate some of the challenges that we are facing.

We are where we are, but the legislation has fundamentally changed how disabled people are able to access justice. Access to advice is important. As Citizens Advice describes it:

“Impartial advice is a fundamental ingredient to a healthy democracy”.

I know that Citizens Advice has offered me invaluable advice, but it has also worked with a significant number of people who have approached me for help and support. In the past year or so the largest number of e-mails that I have received have been from members of the public on this issue. The vast majority have been from disabled people asking for help in steering their way through the complicated system; I do not know whether this is perhaps because I am disabled or because I talk in this area. They are just not sure where else they can turn. Changes have occurred at local levels to advice services and those changes are not the same in every area. The number of people asking for help within this incredibly pressurised system is worryingly rising. One of the most recent cases to come to me has been from a deaf man who has repeatedly received letters directing him to a phone number. Obviously that is just not possible.

During our time debating LASPO, I spoke several times on the telephone gateway and repeatedly said that, while signposting people to a phone number may work for some, it would not work for all. I have also been contacted by someone with autism, who even more worryingly has said that he has absolutely no one around him to help him make this essential phone call, and he did not know where to turn. I was his last resort. He has tried to write letters, but received no response. He told me that he went to his local advice centre and was informed that the waiting list for an appointment was several weeks. Cases are being pushed to services that were previously stretched but are now more so.

In the area of appeals and tribunals, there is much work to be done to ensure that we have better decision-making in the first place. That sounds terribly easy, but I know that it is not. Reading through some of the social media streams this week, I hope that there will not be a regime for charging individuals for benefits appeals. I wonder whether the Minister would like to comment on this. If this were to be the case, it could be seen as yet another way of penalising disabled people.

The support that disabled people get is crucial. Within my noble friend’s report, I very much liked the proposals to embed information in GP surgeries or the places where people are every single day. I thought that was simple but brilliant. Educating young people as to their rights is something that should be on the curriculum right away, along with good sports provision—but that is another matter. The idea of a phone number and simple website is also an excellent idea to act as a triage. We perhaps still need to do more to ensure that disabled people have adequate access to the internet, but that is an aside. Whatever we do, I believe that we have a duty to provide adequate guidance, assistance and support to everyone, and I commend the work of my noble friend.

Civil Legal Aid (Procedure) Regulations 2012

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Wednesday 27th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

That this House regrets that the Civil Legal Aid (Procedure) Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/3098) fail to deliver sufficiently wide access to legal aid services for disabled persons; and that the category of “exempted person” is defined too narrowly.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

My Lords, I spoke extensively on the telephone gateway during the passage of the legal aid Bill. I feel a sense of disappointment in tabling this regret Motion as I am left with many concerns about access and operation.

The mandatory telephone gateway will require those seeking legal aid to call a telephone operator service and then be assessed over the telephone to decide whether they can receive advice under the legal aid scheme. It is a great shame and a missed opportunity that the regulations were not open to consultation. However, I thank the Minister for his offer yesterday to visit a gateway operator and to see the system in action. I shall take him up on his kind offer. I also thank him for his willingness to meet and discuss this issue and for the opportunity to speak with his advisers, who clarified a number of points.

For many people the telephone service is welcome and can be a valuable part of the whole picture. For those in scope, those with simple cases and those who find it easy to use the phone it is hard to see any issue. However, because of the massive changes in legal aid, I still have a number of concerns about whether people will even get as far as the operator service; whether the operator service will prove competent to handle complex legal questions around scope and eligibility; and whether face-to-face services will realistically be available to those who are entitled to them.

The Legal Services Research Centre, the independent research division of the Legal Services Commission, found that telephone advice takes on average 14 minutes longer than face-to-face advice and provides a smaller proportion of tangible outcomes. In 2011 it was open to debate whether the economies offered by the lower overhead costs of telephone provision would be sufficient to offset the cost generated by higher advice times. I would like reassurance that the companies which will be undertaking these services will have the appropriate number of staff to deal with the inquiries.

The Ministry of Justice cumulative impact assessment of 21 June 2011, page 24, paragraph 1.7, stated that the overall proposals have the potential to impact a greater proportion of women, black, Asian, minority ethnic people and ill or disabled people. In my opinion, nothing has really changed.

In the three areas that have been selected for telephone gateway—special educational needs, discrimination and debt, although it is perhaps best to describe it as home repossession—the Government have picked some very challenging areas to test out. In certainly the first two groups, SEN and discrimination, cases are often extremely complex and there may be many wider issues at play as well, such as benefit appeals, which may muddy the waters. I am sure the Minister will offer his reassurance that in the case of SEN the Children and Families Bill will sort out many of the existing problems. However, in Wales the education system is different. It has its own tribunal service and so two systems will need to be understood. The cases with which I am being presented by parents show that it is not a simple matter. It is emotive, and local knowledge is essential.

In the area of discrimination, often many disabled people do not even realise that they are being discriminated against because, at a low level, it is such a regular occurrence that it is accepted, wrongly, as the norm. It might be only when other issues are being dealt with that a person could realise that they were also experiencing discrimination. With the telephone gateway this may be missed. Discrimination will not disappear, it will be just be hidden.

I know this because I experience discrimination at least every week of my life. I am talked down to, patted on the head, treated differently and refused access to goods and services that many take for granted. I am in a better position than many and possess the skills to cope with it and the ability to deal with it. Many disabled people are not.

Hate crime figures against disabled people are at their highest level in 10 years of reporting. A joint study by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary, the Crown Prosecution Service and the National Probation Service published last week argues that there is underreporting of offences. However, it acknowledges that there is no clear and uncomplicated definition of what constitutes disability hate crime. There is a lack of awareness and inconsistent reporting standards.

The report goes on to say that CPS lawyers display a lack of clarity in identifying and analysing offences. I know that this is slightly at a tangent but, if the CPS lawyers are struggling, how is a newly trained, non-lawyer telephone operator going to cope when there are other issues to deal with as well? It is a huge amount of pressure on those individuals operating the system on the front line.

There are also a number of idiosyncrasies in the proposed system. If someone arrives at citizens advice looking for help—which is a very sensible place to go because citizens advice will have some legal aid capacity—even though the adviser is there, the receptionist would have to direct the person to the telephone gateway. They might use the telephone at the citizens advice office but then the receptionist would have to call the CLA to make an appointment for the client with a person sitting in an office 10 feet away. Does this not seem a little odd and strange?

The Law Society provided a useful example as it applies to mortgage repossession cases. It is not uncommon for a lawyer under the duty scheme to see someone at a court and for the hearing to be adjourned for negotiations to take place between the lender and the borrower. Very often a new hearing date will be set for two to four weeks hence. At present, the adviser will take on the work as a new case under a legal aid contract, undertake those negotiations and hopefully return to court with an agreed position at the adjourned hearing. If the position is not agreed, the adviser will be there to explain the negotiations and the stumbling blocks to the district judge.

From next week, the adviser will not be permitted to do this. Instead the case must go through the mandatory telephone gateway. This will involve duplication of work as the telephone adviser will have to go through all the information that the duty lawyer already has. It is possible that the telephone adviser may sign off the case as needing face-to-face advice and refer it straight back to the duty lawyer, but this is by no means certain. The client may well have to post papers to the telephone adviser as well as dealing with legal aid means forms by post. Once those formalities have been disposed of, the telephone adviser will then have to conduct the negotiations, having lost several days. It may or may not prove possible to conclude negotiations before the adjourned hearing but it is less likely than if the duty lawyer took on the case. The client will then return to court, again, hopefully, with an agreed position. However, if the position is not agreed, the case will have to be picked up once again by a duty adviser, who will then have to duplicate the work done by the telephone adviser to find out what happened in the negotiations. I am not a lawyer, but this seems to be more complicated rather than less.

This scenario has been confirmed by the Ministry of Justice as being possible. People with complex issues could find themselves being directed to a face-to-face for one part of their problem, a phone gateway for another one, then passed to the second tier, which could then direct them back for a face-to-face—and if you want benefit advice as well, good luck to you. Can the Minister clarify that the best way for a person to find out if they are exempt from the gateway, if they do not have access to the internet or may struggle to follow the guidelines issued by some of the charities, is to call the gateway, the one thing they know they have problems with?

Yesterday, the Minister and his team provided some reassurance over the provision of British sign language interpreters or potential webcam interviews. Perhaps the use of technology could be explored to allow more face-to-face contact. It certainly would be useful to have clarity about the number of webcam interviews it is possible to conduct and how people will be informed that it is possible, especially if they do not have direct access to the internet. Perhaps the Minister will offer a reassurance that these services will genuinely be open to those who need them.

On the issue of third parties, I was disappointed that this was not covered in the regulations; however, it is in guidance. Proving the identity of a third party and whether they have an unconflicted relationship will not be easy and I have many unresolved difficulties with this area in particular. Face-to-face interviews would be able to pick up on the nuances of the relationship.

If finally, after going through all these hurdles, someone is granted a face-to-face interview, can the Minister offer reassurance that travelling distances will be reasonable; that services such as British sign language interpreters will be provided if necessary; and that the centres will be accessible. We have seen in work capability assessments that a number of disabled people have been sent to interviews where they cannot even get into the building, park within a reasonable distance or even use the toilets. I cannot imagine anything worse than beating down all these barriers to get to a face-to-face interview and then find that it is not accessible.

The monthly data that will be collected are vital to improving the system but a more in-depth analysis is essential. On closer thought, comparing it to the per capita rate of disabled people in the population is a little crude. Currently data on disability, if held, are held only if the client wishes them to be supplied and included on the form. It is very difficult to compare what is happening now to what will happen in the future.

Last year, the Royal Mail launched a report, which I worked on, showing that 4 million disabled people had never used the internet. That is a worrying figure. Even if it is dropping, it highlights a major concern that I have about how people are going to be signposted to some of these areas.

Trust is important in building up the success of this service. At a time when the welfare system is going through big changes, signposting has to be effective. Many people are worried about explaining themselves on the phone. The same group might be reluctant to send off their paperwork, regardless of the free postage. Indeed, what if they do not even have the paperwork that is required? How does the operator know that the person has understood what they are being asked to provide? I have spoken to a number of solicitors working in this area and they all say that many people do not present in a coherent manner. Measuring the length of a phone call is one way to assess the service, but would it not be easier to look someone in the face? While the previous system might not have been perfect, it was straightforward and people knew what they had to do. The rules for the new system are more complex. Operators might ask some or all of the right questions, but so much is being left to the judgment of the individual operator.

I want to talk about exceptional funding only briefly because it is very complicated. Can the Minister provide a reassurance that the operator will inform people of when they have the right to apply for exceptional funding? Equally important, will they be told that they have the right to have their information checked or to be able to speak to a supervisor if they are turned down for access to legal aid in the first phone call? The Ministry of Justice is expecting around 6,000 people to apply for exceptional funding, and I would be interested to know what analysis has been made on the current thinking behind this.

I realise that I have asked a lot of questions but, ultimately, I believe that the current definition is too narrow. I would like to ask the Minister to amend the definition of those exempt to include disabled and vulnerable people. We could be in danger of not providing people with the help they need. These are some of the most vulnerable people in society and they will not even get to the first phone call. Instead of making the system easier, we could just be pushing the costs somewhere else and making the lives of disabled people infinitely harder. I beg to move.

[Baroness Scotland of Asthal]

My Lords, I rise to speak to my Motion, which regrets that,

“the Civil Legal Aid (Procedure) Regulations 2012 … fail to deliver on Her Majesty’s Government’s expressed promise to provide adequate legal aid provision for victims of domestic violence; that significant numbers of victims will not be able to satisfy the evidential criteria, contrary to Her Majesty’s Government’s expressed intent, resulting in a diminution of access to justice; and that, as a result, domestic violence victims will be exposed to an increased risk of injury and death”.

I should say straightaway how much I regret the necessity for this regret Motion. I thank all those who battled so hard on all sides of the House to make the regulations and, indeed, the Act more palatable in relation to the victims of domestic violence, and I would particularly like to remember Lord Newton of Braintree. He was not with us when we debated the amendment on the Tuesday before this matter went back to the Commons. Had he been in the House, the tied vote of 231 to 231 would, I hazard to say, have gone the other way.

I accept entirely that the regulations pursuant to the Act purport to implement that which was decided during the debates, but we need to be very clear indeed that Regulation 33 of the Civil Legal Aid (Procedure) Regulations 2012 is now to be the gateway through which the victims of domestic violence must pass if they wish to receive legal aid, but it is a very narrow and treacherous gate. It will exclude many victims who have hitherto benefited from the legal support and assistance necessary to free themselves and often their children from the worst excesses of domestic violence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

The noble Lord is quite right: the number will not be a freephone number. I will inquire whether that was considered. The point is that it is minimalist. Just to put it on the record, you can use the 0845 3454345 number and immediately ask for a call-back, so it is not that big a hurdle.

I have taken a lot of the time of the House. I have tried to answer some important questions. I hope that, in doing so, I have conveyed that we are dealing with issues of shared concern about protecting the most vulnerable in our society.

Throughout both these debates today, we were faced with making tough financial decisions, but I believe we have made them in a way that targets resources at the most vulnerable in the way that would be most effective. I would regret it if the Motions were pressed. I will note the opinion of the House, but I go back to the growl of approval that greeted the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland. It is an approval that I share: we have got to make sure that in our approach to legal aid and the broader issues that encompass both, our aim must be to give priority to attacks on the broader causes of domestic violence and to ensure that there is legal aid available in family law. I believe that if noble Lords look at the way that women will qualify for legal aid, it will be very difficult to say that those provisions are not there.

On aid for issues of disability, I hope I have clarified some of the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. I hope she will go to Hinckley and see the gateway in progress. I can assure all sides of the House that as far as I am concerned, monitoring will start on day one to see what the impact of these changes will be. In that respect, I hope the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Baroness will not press their Motions.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction and his response, which were, perhaps, wrapped up together. I thank the organisations that provided me with some amazing case studies and the individuals who have been in touch and explained the immense difficulties that they are currently facing.

In thinking about bringing this Regret Motion, I was fortunate to speak to my noble friend Lady Campbell, who is in her place, who shared some of her experiences of the Disability Rights Commission. It operates a telephone advice line and has perhaps some of the most highly trained people in disability and equity, and they experience difficulties in understanding people with speech difficulties, perhaps because they have cerebral palsy, or with multiple impairments, who speak in a different way. She was able to outline some of their difficulties in being able to clarify their issues. A number of solicitors I spoke to said that people do not present their problems in an easy-to-understand manner. Mind, the charity, which has been part of this discussion, said that it is exceptionally worried that many people with fluctuating capacity could be excluded. A number of organisations have communicated their fear about people being able to access the telephone gateway.

I am a huge fan of technology. It is amazing, it is great if you can afford it, and it is even better if you know how to use it. Young people seem to be born with an ability to make it work, but that is not the case for perhaps many of us. If I look around your Lordships’ Chamber, we have, if I can say it, some of the most privileged people and the brightest, and those with access to the best education, knowledge and experience, but I wonder how many of us use technology. Think about it if you are a disabled person, if you are alone, isolated, going through great difficulty and with immense problems that you are trying to explain to someone else. We have a very long road to enable disabled people and old people to access some of this.

I am very passionate about special educational needs because I went through it. I fought to get into mainstream school before there was a system in place. My father used a single line in the report by the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock. He threatened to sue the Secretary of State for Wales over my right to be educated in a mainstream environment. He was educated and financially privileged. I look round at many of the people who will be fighting for the same thing for their children, and picking up a phone and trying to explain their children’s complex needs does not make any sense to me whatever. I know the noble Lord, Lord Freud, and the Minister have both said, in relation to disabled people, that the Government want to help and support those with the greatest need. I do not believe that that is the case.

The Minister also talked about reasonable adjustments. That is all very well, but it does not measure those who do not or cannot make the first phone call. The fact that the phone number is not free will make it exceptionally difficult for a number of people who do not have credit on their phones and who just cannot even contemplate picking up the phone. I am afraid that I am completely unconvinced by the idea of the third party and the Minister’s faith in that working. I find trying to explain complex needs to somebody who will then explain them to somebody on the phone very frustrating and disappointing.

I still believe that the exemption group is too narrow and that disabled people will increasingly be hidden away. In 2013, disabled people will start becoming invisible as they did in the 1960s and the 1970s when I was young. That is a cost I do not think is worth paying. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Monday 23rd April 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

At end insert “but do propose Amendment 24B as an amendment in lieu”

24B* Page 21, line 7, at end insert—

--- Later in debate ---

(vi) that it is otherwise in the interests of justice.”

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and his team for meeting with me earlier today and also for the letter I received this morning which laid out, with much greater clarity, issues previously discussed. I believe the telephone gateway will be positive for many people, and perhaps would go so far as to say that, for some, it could be better. I welcome the details of the exclusions that have been given: where there is an emergency; where the client has previously been assessed by the mandatory gateway as requiring advice face to face; where the client has accessed face-to-face advice within the past 12 months and is seeking further help to resolve linked problems from the same face-to-face provider; where the client is in detention; and where the client is a child, defined as being under 18. Some of the reassurances that have been given are positive, but these are really around those with much less complex cases.

In previous debates I have spoken much about the cost to the system and to individuals. and I initially welcomed the call-back system that has been proposed. However, on reflection, I cannot imagine an individual with a complex need or a vulnerable adult requesting this call back on the promise of a return call—there is just too much at stake.

I still have some areas of concern. The first is the continuing use of the word “mandatory”. I know that this is an operational matter; not only does it sound inflexible, it is. There are still many unanswered questions around the number of staff who will be employed, both in the first line and specialist operators, and also the cost. It is to be welcomed that they will be trained in listening, but the areas of law they will need to understand will be extensive and complicated.

The Minister has provided more information on this, and while those who work in the call centre will not be under any time constraint to get through the call, there will be a significant amount of pressure on them not only to guide the client in the right way, but to ensure that the client has understood what they are being told. How will this be measured? Will it be on customer satisfaction, or will the number of cases that progress or do not progress be used in some way?

The Minister in his letter—and I believe this is telling—twice mentions the fact that the key test will be whether the individual is able to give instructions and act on the advice given over the telephone. I am extremely concerned that vulnerable people, with complex problems, will drop out of the system, even if they make it to the first phone call. Just finding the telephone gateway may be a challenge for some. The same can be said of the online form on the DirectGov website. They may not be able to do it themselves, nor find appropriate third-party support to offer help.

I know that the Government are committed to reviewing these operations, and to make adjustments if they are not working correctly, but we could be 24 or 36 months into a new system before the figures are gathered and we understand who has been able to access the right support. It is all well and good that a client who makes it through the first call may be directly transferred to a specialist adviser, I take this to mean within the initial phone call—but I am still unclear about the route through for someone who will be advised to go to a face-to-face meeting. The current system relies on the individual being given three local centres and then making the necessary arrangements, but surely the proposed system should be better than the current one. How will this take-up rate be monitored to ensure that clients have taken the steps they are entitled to, and what are the costs attached to them?

My last amendment was rejected under financial arrangements, because there is a cost to it, but what is the cost of setting up this mandatory telephone gateway and, if vulnerable people are not able to access legal aid, what are the potential costs that could be shifted to other areas such as local authorities or the NHS? I believe a little more flexibility is required to ensure that the most vulnerable are able to access the support they are entitled to. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Northover]

My noble friend assures me that we will review how this is working and publish the findings. I am sure that noble Lords will scrutinise that with the greatest of care. I reiterate that the operation of the system will be monitored from the very beginning. Therefore, noble Lords do not need simply to wait for the review at the end of two years to make sure that this is working in the way that we trust will assist people, as opposed to raising the concerns that noble Lords have expressed. I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this afternoon’s debate, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. Not for the first time, I wish that I had trained in the law rather than doing a politics degree. I accept that my wording could be slightly better but, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said, it has been improved since the last time I moved the amendment.

It seems that we are stuck in two slightly inflexible viewpoints. I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Low, when he says that there is a place for a gateway. However, I also believe that there is a place for something else to help the most vulnerable. One idiosyncrasy of this system is that an individual could go into a citizens advice bureau and ask for help but be told to ring a phone number and be sent away. In an ideal situation, that person would be able to stay in the citizens advice bureau and make the call from there, and could even have that third-party support. If they are sent away, they may take that to mean that they are not eligible or that they do not understand some of the issues.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for her comments. It is probably not the right time to debate this, but now that we have a system that can be accessed on the internet through www.directgov.com or by Skype and through phone calls—there is information coming back and forth—I wonder whether there are not almost too many options for people. Perhaps a gateway and the potential for a face-to-face interview might be the simplest way to do it.

I go back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. I am sure that everyone in your Lordships’ House knows one, two, or maybe more people who would struggle to make that first contact and might drop out of the system, finding it too much to cope with, and would therefore not be able to access the help that they need. So as much as there has been some positive movement today and some very positive comments, I am not reassured that the most vulnerable would be supported through this system. Very reluctantly, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

At end insert “but do propose Amendment 171B as an amendment in lieu”.

171B* Page 115, line 5, at end insert—

--- Later in debate ---

(i) an appeal to the Supreme Court.”

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

My Lords, this amendment is in my name at this stage. However, it received support from the late Lord Newton of Braintree and the noble Baronesses, Lady Eaton and Lady Benjamin, throughout the passage of the Bill.

This amendment is narrower than the one that was previously carried by your Lordships’ House. I was extremely disappointed that, due to the financial arrangements in the other place, I had to remove the areas of consumer law and immigration, as the latter alone accounts for around a third of the cases affecting children. This Motion makes legal aid available for children in cases where a boy or girl is a victim of medical negligence or malpractice, in all cases of private family law, education, housing and social welfare and for criminal injury appeals only after they are financially means-tested and found to qualify. This Motion would give legal aid to about 3,000 extra children a year who are not explicitly covered by the Bill. It would cost the Government about £3.2 million a year and could be easily affordable. When you consider that the Legal Services Commission is sitting on £500 million-worth of confiscation orders that it has not yet collected against supercriminals, there are other ways to save money rather than targeting children.

At present, legal aid helps around 40,000 children every year who have civil justice legal problems in their own right. If the Bill is left as it stands, legal aid will not be available for thousands of children under the age of 18 who would qualify if the current rules remained in place. It is estimated that between 5,000 and 6,000 children could be affected. The Government have not explained the rationale of why some children are being treated differently from other children who have problems under the same categories of law.

On our 40th day of debate in your Lordships’ House I asked why 220 of last year’s cases on education would qualify but 110 children would not receive access to legal aid. I still have not had an answer to that question. We have been told that individual children may qualify under an exceptional cases fund, and more information has been provided, but I still fear that children will fall through the net.

It is probably slightly unfair of me to quote the Minister when he was questioned about exceptional cases on the previous Motion, but he said that it is hard to quantify the amounts. For me, the merits of the case are not enough without knowing some of those figures. It could mean that more is spent than we are saving by doing this.

Why do I feel so strongly about this? It is because children are children; they are not adults. Children do not have the capacity to represent themselves or to interpret the thousands of pages of laws and regulations that affect them. The question of children’s capacity to represent themselves is explicitly recognised and provided for in international law.

I remind your Lordships’ House that the Children’s Commissioner for England, Dr Maggie Atkinson, wrote to the Lord Chancellor to warn that denying children a voice in legal proceedings would be in breach of the European Convention. She wrote:

“Children, by virtue of their age and capacity will not be able to present their case effectively in the majority of proceedings … Children’s need for legal aid in civil cases where they are a party should not be viewed as ‘exceptional’”.

In virtually all these cases a child will be taking action against the state, and we do not yet know how the state will begin to act if it cannot be challenged. It is therefore wrong that the state has discretion on whether it will grant legal aid to a child who is challenging it. Such systems are not synonymous with accountable and democratic systems. I ask noble Lords once again to support this Motion. This issue is so important that we should ask the other place to reconsider the case of these children. I beg to move.

[Baroness Hamwee]

I shall say a word about one of the items that has been left out of this list: immigration. I am sorry that the noble Baroness has decided, for reasons that I understand, not to include it in the list. We know that immigration matters will not be within exceptional funding, so that route will not be available. Unaccompanied children arriving here may very well initially claim asylum, but a child who makes an asylum claim that fails and fails again on appeal will fall back on an immigration claim. For instance, a child who comes here at, say, the age of 12 and does not succeed on asylum but gets leave to remain will after three years, at the age of 15, be seeking immigration status in circumstances that will have changed dramatically.

I can see that there may be different considerations for a child who comes within a family but there must be cases where the child should be represented separately. We have a spent a lot of time on this and we know that immigration is complex; that social workers are not qualified to deal with it; and that legal advisers need to be specially licensed for it. I know that we are not in a position to change this but it is right to put on record some disappointment. But there is hope that as time goes on the Government will realise that this is something on which particular help is needed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Northover]

The noble Baroness may be right about social workers providing legal advice but I am talking about the kind of support that a social worker can give to a child in that situation. Often it is not a matter of specific legal advice but of assisting that child and steering them through the necessary procedures. There has been a running theme through a lot of this discussion that it is not necessarily legal advice that is required; it may be another form of support, which is where, for example, the CAB may be able to assist. Noble Lords have a lot of experience of organisations such as these assisting people and we should not forget that. We are looking at how best to ensure that local authorities can assist children in their care in the kind of cases that my noble friend has flagged up.

The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, asked about care leavers. I am glad that he was reassured by what my noble friend could tell him. I reiterate that the exceptional funding scheme will ensure the protection of the individual’s right to legal aid under the European Convention on Human Rights, as well as those rights to legal aid that are directly enforceable under European Union law. The scheme will of course encompass children leaving care, where they meet the relevant legal tests. In considering whether exceptional funding should be granted on this basis in an individual case engaging Article 6 of the ECHR, the director will consider the ability of the client to present their own case, the complexity of the issues, the importance of the issues at stake and all other relevant circumstances.

Local authorities also have a range of duties to care leavers which will not be affected by the provisions of the Bill. It is late at night but I also recognise the huge commitment in this area of the noble Earl. If he would like further discussions we are happy to do that. I hope that I have addressed the concerns of most noble Lords and would like to remind them that 96 per cent of the current funding remains in place and that the principles of need and vulnerability, which underpinned the reasons for covering the areas that we have, remain the most important ones.

I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, will be reassured that children who are in need will be protected and that we will not see the concerns that she has flagged up come to fruition. On that basis, I hope the noble Baroness will withdraw her Motion.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for her response and all other noble Lords who have contributed this evening.

In my opening speech I did not mention clinical negligence because the issue had been eloquently argued in the previous Motion by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay.

The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, raised the important issue of children in care and children leaving care. However, this will raise more issues about where the costs will move to. The hope that local authorities will pick up the pieces concerning this group of children in care or leaving care is naive. Local authorities are already under huge amounts of pressure, and pushing the costs—and potentially greater costs—on them will not help the children who we want to see receive this help.

I am also deeply uncomfortable about the role of the litigation friend and the ability of children to access an appropriate person who is able to help them through very difficult times.

I am afraid that I am still not convinced by the arguments on exceptional funding. When we debated the percentages of cases, we learnt that 13 per cent of children’s cases will be out of scope. However, information provided by JustRights shows that, contrary to misleading government claims, the 5,000 to 6,000 children covered by this amendment will not be protected by the exceptional funding scheme. The Ministry of Justice has confirmed to JustRights that its figures on the number of children affected already account for those who would receive exceptional funding. If children were automatically entitled to legal aid, the Government would avoid the cost of administering children’s applications to the scheme, as well as possible delays that would be detrimental to children’s welfare.

I am conscious of the late hour. This issue has been extensively debated in many sessions, but we should ask the other place to think again about the thousands of children who will be seriously and negatively affected if the amendment does not go through. I beg to move.