Roads: Private Investment
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord has made just the same points as I made to my officials. The key question is: is it additional capacity or is it merely an enhancement? If it is additional capacity, we would consider tolling it, but if it was just an enhancement, perhaps that would not justify tolling. The noble Lord puts his finger on an extremely important point.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Can the Minister tell me on this Anzac day whether he knows that Sydney Harbour Bridge is a toll road? It has paid for itself probably thousands of times over, but as far as I know there is still a small toll payable. Does he not think that it is a great advantage for people to have a road that otherwise they would not have, but that the cost should not be so high that it creates a major problem, particularly for local people in meeting the toll cost?
Transport: Automatic Number Plate Recognition
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Gardner of Parkes
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they plan to use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) systems to reduce the number of uninsured drivers and the use of unregistered vehicles.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the police use automatic number plate recognition to spot vehicles that are being used without insurance or with no registered keeper. Under the continuous insurance enforcement scheme, the DVLA has powers to issue fixed-penalty notices, clamp a vehicle or prosecute offenders who keep a vehicle with no insurance. Contractors for DVLA are able to wheel-clamp uninsured vehicles, and have access to ANPR. The DVLA also has its own ANPR equipment to detect unlicensed vehicles.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Does the Minister agree that the estimated loss to ordinary insured drivers is £500 million a year in higher premiums? Has he seen the reports about forecourts saying that they will not let you buy petrol if you are unregistered? Has there been any increase in the effectiveness of enforcement where people are uninsured or unregistered?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the cost of uninsured drivers is considerable. Uninsured drivers are also vulnerable to legal difficulties. The situation is highly undesirable, which is why we are taking steps to reduce the level of uninsured driving. The idea of using ANPR on petrol forecourts is innovative and being considered, but further work is needed to establish how it will work in practice alongside existing enforcement measures.
Olympic Games 2012: Disruption to Businesses
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, if I may say so, that was an ingenious question from the spokesman for the Opposition. However, noble Lords will recall that the bid plans were approved by the previous Administration. On a particular point about the Olympic route network and the Games lanes, the Games lanes will be put in place only where there are two lanes, and only for as long as necessary.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, could the Minister tell me what thought has been given to the effect on retail business of the extended closure of pedestrian crossings? Certain major roads in the centre of London will have a barrier completely down the middle, and the number of pedestrian crossings will be reduced by half. Will that not affect people in retail terms since they will be able to buy only from whatever business happens to be on their side of the road?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is important to remember that there will be opportunities as well as disadvantages for retail businesses. I would urge retail businesses to visit the Get Ahead of the Games website, where, by using the tools available, they will easily be able to see what the impact of travel disruption will be.
Cyclists: Accidents
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Baroness Gardner of Parkes
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to reduce the number of serious bicycle accidents in London.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that all noble Lords will agree with me that every road accident is a tragedy. With regard to the roads in London, under devolution it is for the mayor and Transport for London to decide their cycling priorities and allocate their budget accordingly. We will of course continue to work closely with them to improve safety.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Is the Minister aware that more women cyclists are killed or suffer very serious injuries on these junctions than men? The reason, it is believed, is because the women wait at the red lights and the men go through them. Large vehicles turning left have a degree of difficulty in seeing people. For that reason, I would like his comments on the so-called “Trixie” mirror—not named after me, and nothing to do with me, I might add—which is proposed for large lorries. Will he also suggest that the Government look into the possibility of the system just being introduced in Paris whereby at dangerous junctions they will have specific lights for cyclists?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Baroness asked me about the male/female ratio. We are aware of the hypothesis. The figures for accidents are mercifully low but, unfortunately, increasing. It is difficult to extract measurable data to formulate policy or make effective regulations. The noble Baroness also talked about “Trixie” mirrors; these mirrors are placed on traffic signal posts and help HGV drivers to see cyclists on their near side in the blind spot at signalised junctions. The department provided approval to TfL to extend the use of these mirrors across the cycle superhighway network, and it will consider further requests for “Trixie” mirrors by other authorities. Unfortunately, I was not aware of the situation in Paris.
Company Cars
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts(14 years, 1 month ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am happy to agree that the Government should not interfere any more than we already do, by the system of company car tax that I have outlined, but I am also confident that bigger and heavier cars pay considerably more in company car tax, not least because an employee who is entitled to a large car will also be paying much higher rates of marginal tax, and company car tax is paid at the marginal rate of tax.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, one of the questioners asked my noble friend about insurance and there being many more accidents. What is the insurance position and is it taken into account in the terms of the taxation? Do people not care so much about accidents because it is not their no-claims bonus that they are losing?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, if a company car driver has an accident, I suspect that it would affect their no-claims bonus because they would have to declare their accident to the insurance company, but I am not absolutely certain on that point.
Airports: Heathrow
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts(14 years, 2 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is difficult to avoid being negative when the answer is, “No third runway at Heathrow”. However, we look forward to any contribution Her Majesty’s Opposition make to the future aviation policy framework. The Government want aviation to grow, but to do so it must play its part in delivering our environmental goals and protecting the quality of life of local communities. We are developing a sustainable framework for UK aviation that supports economic growth and addresses aviation’s environmental impacts.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, is the Minister aware that many airlines now are changing to larger aircraft, which will bring in many more passengers on each flight? Will that contribute to helping Heathrow to continue at least to receive more people, even if not more flights?
Localism Bill
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts(14 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the noble Earl. This amendment is in my name as well as that of the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes. Let us hope that she comes back to your Lordships’ Chamber before we get to the end of this. I feel that these amendments are very important. I have had several close experiences of party wall failures. I am going to talk not about fracking—that comes in a later amendment—but about people extending their basements in rows of terraced houses and things like that. I have had one experience which persuaded me of the need for changes to the legislation. The amendments put down by the noble Baroness will achieve this.
My experience was to do with a garden wall in London. The people next door wished to build a house against the garden wall and to go down to build a basement. They had to go about five feet down and said that they had to take five feet of the garden in order to achieve this, which, of course, is allowed under party wall legislation. They put up a temporary fence, knocked everything down and dug the hole. Then they went bust and the hole stayed there for two years. By that time I had sold the house to somebody who, luckily, was a professional architect and knew what he was talking about. In the end, he took the neighbours to court but had to get two separate court orders; one before they would construct the basement up to ground level and reinstate the garden and another before they completed the wall up to the requisite height. Five years later the wall is still not finished—if you push the top of it, it moves, which is interesting. Having had to go to court twice and suffered two burglaries as a result, I think it demonstrates that something needs to be done. I certainly support these amendments which the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, has put forward and co-ordinated. I am sure that she will wish to speak after me, but in the mean time I beg to move.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for starting this debate. I will speak to Amendments 206, 224 and 227. Amendment 206 is the one about consultation. I have a somewhat sceptical view about consultation because when I was building my house, we consulted all the neighbours and they all objected just the same, so it is of limited value. However, Dr Thompson, who has done a lot of work and held public meetings on this issue, quoted me an example of someone who consulted their neighbours and agreed that they would have all the cars washed every day and would have everything swept and cleaned. Apparently the whole basement development went through without a hitch. That person has now moved into the basement and the people next door to her have started to do theirs. Apparently, it is absolutely chaotic and they have not consulted or agreed anything, so consultation might be of value but it is of limited value.
It is far more important to deal with the other items which I am covering in Amendment 224. One is the question of precedent. I should declare an interest in that, when I die, my children, in order to get the best value for my home, will definitely want to be able to say that they could have a basement under it, because in that part of London a hotel has just been built with six storeys underground. Other people are building to a lesser extent, but at least half the people in the streets adjoining my house in London have already either got permission or done their basements. Because you cannot go up, the only way you can continue to live in a place with an expanding family is to go down so there is a definite need and a case for basements. That is why I have included in subsection (1) of Amendment 224 the issue of precedents. If an area is already full of basements, why should you not have the same right?
More importantly, subsection (2) refers to a bond or security. When my husband was alive, he represented St John’s Wood as a councillor and I certainly know of a basement there that was under construction for three years. There was another one in Brompton Square. After three years, the people each went bankrupt and with that, the people in the houses on either side of them were faced with a terrible situation. They could do nothing: their houses could fall into the hole or fill with water, as the basement was filling with water. It is quite alarming. A bond or security could be an answer in this kind of situation. It should be easy to find cover as part of your buildings insurance. Subsection (3) refers to “a qualified structural engineer”. Some of the better London boroughs already impose such conditions. They apply them to any such planning consent and the work has to be both planned and supervised. The three subsections in Amendment 224 are important.
Even more important is Amendment 227, which relates to amendments to the Party Wall etc. Act. I am grateful to the noble Lord who gave me some marvellous papers from the RICS, on its practice standards for UK party wall legislation. They were very interesting. The noble Lord is an expert on the subject. If the party wall legislation were updated to cover these matters, there is already a great deal of provision for security in there, which would also cover the consultation issue. As far as I can see, basements are more or less a big city issue. I do not know whether it is a big issue in big cities outside London, but in London it has certainly become one. It is important that something should be done about it.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment, which was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley.
I say at once that I was extremely grateful to my noble friend Lady Hanham for acceding to my request that I should take a deputation from two of the community bodies interested in this subject. We met my noble friend on 31 August. The community bodies included representatives of some of the householders who have been so appallingly affected by these basement developments—“subterranean developments”, they seem to be called. So impressed was my noble friend by what she heard and read that she instructed her officials—I hope I quote her correctly—“to find a solution”. The delegation therefore left in some considerable hope that something might be done to meet their concerns.
In passing, I asked them whether they had tried to raise this issue in the other place. Their answer was rather revealing: they had tried but they could not find any Member of another place who was prepared to take up the issue. There was no delegation to see a Minister in the other place. It has been left to this House to pursue the issue and to gain the assurance from my noble friend that her department should find a solution.
I have four amendments in this group. The first two were tabled for Committee and have been carried through to Report. One was intended to provide a code of practice and the other to provide some form of recompense for the massive disturbance that householders face. However, I have subsequently received a letter from my noble friend explaining that those amendments were not acceptable. In the letter of 9 August she said:
“With regard to your proposals relating to the Secretary of State issuing guidance, in the spirit of localism, I believe it is best to leave it to local authorities to issue guidance”.
Relying on that, I then tabled Amendment 230 to provide that the local authority shall issue guidance.
However, my noble friend also was not keen on the idea of compensation. She said she believed that,
“the introduction of such a provision would set an unwelcome precedent for this to be adopted more generally”.
I have therefore tabled a second amendment.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I must say at the outset that it was only because I became a Minister that I stopped being on the planning committee of my borough, the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, where we dealt with an enormous number of subterranean developments. My patience ran out when we had one that went down three floors. When I asked why it had to go so far down, they said that the person who owned the house wanted a high diving board.
I am not at all unsympathetic to this particular discussion. After my noble friends Lord Jenkin and Lady Gardner came to see me originally with some representatives from Kensington and Chelsea, and Westminster, I thought carefully about what we would do here. The fact is that this Bill will not solve the problems. There are too many elements to this to help by legislation. There is legislation all over the place that governs this. I was concerned to see what could be done within the legislation that is there at the moment and whether codes of practice, guidance and all the elements could be brought together and given to local authorities to help them. For that reason, I asked my noble friend Lord Jenkin and the people who came to see me to agree to be a small working party to discuss with officials the ideas that they had for amending this, with the officials bringing together what can already be done. Could we, through some discussion and feeling our way, find a solution that did not require primary legislation, or has this been going on for so long that it is well beyond that? We want something quick that guides local authorities in what they can and cannot do.
The local authorities that have to deal with this are becoming quite adroit, but the effect on people who live roundabout is absolutely atrocious. I know of one person who complained that a basement extension was being dug up on either side of his house and opposite it, too. Once basements are developed you cannot see them and they are all gone, but it is during this development process, which can take anything up to two years, when the trouble starts.
I hope that my noble friend Lord Jenkin will not bring back an amendment at Third Reading. We have an awful lot already and the Bill managers are becoming slightly anxious. I feel that we can resolve the problem more quickly than this. There are already endless Acts covering this. I am concerned that those Acts are not properly understood or implemented by local authorities. There are building and environmental regulations. Construction method statements are required. There are party wall implications, construction design and management regulations, the control of pollution Acts and the Party Wall etc. Act. As a result of the meeting that we had prior to this being brought up this time, we are already working with the Basement Information Centre to see about guidance on the construction of basements and how those could be developed to cover the issues we have raised. Defra is looking to prove an updated version of the British Standard so as to give it statutory force under the Control of Pollution Act. The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors publishes guidance on the Party Wall etc. Act, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said. I would accept, immediately with gratitude, his help with this. We already have a meeting tomorrow if the noble Lord is free, and we will take it into account.
The party wall issue is clearly another very major area, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, has pointed out the difficulties with bringing this into more legislation when there may be ways of making it clearer and more acceptable by guidance. We and the department are going to review the guidance on the Party Wall etc. Act so that it reflects matters better. The Health and Safety Executive is developing guidance for builders, and all the issues which the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has raised will come under health and safety; they must do. We do not underestimate the disturbance and distress that poorly executed work on subterranean developments can cause.
I want the small group that we have now, working with our officials, to go through what has been picked up on now, what the legislation is, what guidance is needed and where local authorities need to be given a better helping hand with a code of conduct, and to see whether we can do this without having to go to primary legislation again. I think we can probably do this, and I would like to be given the opportunity to try. I cannot complete this between now and Third Reading, so I am going to have to rely on the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, perhaps not moving this at Third Reading, but with my commitment to try to see this through. I fully and totally understand the concerns around this. I am not surprised that it has provoked discussion to get it into the Bill. By the time we have had a consultation on legislation, if it is possible to have that, we are going to be way off down the line.
I will personally take a lead in this to see what can be done, what guidance can be provided and what extra clout can be given, one way or another, either through the Party Wall etc. Act or by strengthening the guidance. I would like an opportunity to be able to do that, but having said that I am very grateful to the noble Lords who have spoken. I gather that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, had to leave to chair another meeting, but his amendment was very much along the lines of the others moved in this debate.
I hope noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments. I hope to see all those noble Lords reasonably frequently for the next weeks while we try to sort this out. I look forward to seeing the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, as part of that.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I have listened with interest to the Minister’s reply, and I am sure we would all like to go along with whatever she says because she has clearly thought about it seriously. However, I do not think that it in any way answers the problems that people have.
The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, talked about unnecessary inconvenience, but that is not the big issue. Every bit of building work is always an extreme inconvenience for everyone else around it. In the street where my house is in London I have gone through eight years of all the office blocks being demolished and replaced with giant blocks of flats. It meant that the whole street was congested and you could not move. It was extremely inconvenient, but I do not expect compensation for that. We have to encourage development and any necessary construction. I am not so concerned about compensation for disturbance, but I am concerned about people who find themselves left with a hole in the ground beside them when the people who have dug it have gone bankrupt. It should be simple to set up some sort of insurance, and I would like to speak to the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, whose views I greatly respect, because he said there might be complications with this. I thought that insurance was a pretty common feature in building. Most builders have insurance. We should discuss that at some further time.
Localism Bill
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts(14 years, 3 months ago)
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“70D Requirement for consultation on retrospective application
A local planning authority must, on receipt of an application for retrospective planning permission, notify and consult on the application those who were notified and consulted on the original application, and must have regard to any responses to the further consultation.”
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I should like to clarify that I am not speaking about what I would call a repeat amendment, where someone is coming back for another planning application; I am speaking purely about cases where someone has built premises in contravention of the planning permission they have been granted.
This has happened to me in both London and the country. I supported the application in the country, only to find that an extra metre and a half had been built on a wall, cutting off totally our view of the village green, which was a very pretty part of the place. When I rang the council to ask why nothing had happened about this, they said, “Oh, we gave him retrospective permission for it”. The same happened in London, where I actually phoned the council during the construction and said that it was not being built according to plan. “Oh of course it is”, they said. Eighteen months later the council came back and said, “You’re quite right, it was not. However, we felt that as people had already moved into it, we should give them retrospective permission”.
This is quite unfair to people who have a right of legitimate comment on the original planning application but have no idea when the council is considering a whitewash for something that should not be. That is the purpose of the amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I would have thought that this amendment is unnecessary. If an application for retrospective consent is a fresh application, it would, or should, be notified to those occupiers—not necessarily those who objected before, who might be living anywhere. However, surely it should be treated as an application de novo, and therefore the normal processes would apply. So those affected on a retrospective application would receive notice. I should think, unless the Minister disagrees, that the amendment is otiose.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord is right on this. I thank my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes for bringing this forward. It is important that we get this absolutely clear. This word retrospective largely means that something happened for which there was no permission. Someone spots it and says, “Look here, you’d better put in a planning application”. That’s the position. In all instances where there is a change, there are requirements in place for local planning authorities to publicise and consult on those applications—that is, the retrospective ones. This is true when a new revised planning application is submitted, and where the holder of a planning permission wishes to delete or vary one or more of the conditions to which their existing planning permission is subject. The Government therefore believe that this amendment is a solution to a problem that does not exist. I hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw it.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I thank the Minister for that answer. I really find it surprising that I should have been unfortunate in two entirely different locations in this respect. But I accept what he says and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) In section 171B (time limits), after subsection (4)(b) insert—
“(c) at any time taking enforcement action in accordance with an enforcement order which has not been complied with by the party that has breached planning control.””
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I am hoping that this one is equally unnecessary. I moved this amendment in Committee—or an amendment very like it—but when the government reply came, the Minister thought that I was asking about the right to take a new enforcement action well after six years, which is apparently the limit. That was not my point. My point concerns situations where enforcement action has been taken. Again, somewhere near me there is a property which is in foreign ownership; enforcement notices have been served; it has gone through the court process—everything—but nothing has happened for about 10 years now. They have absolutely failed to comply and cannot be contacted anywhere. That is really why I tabled the amendment. However, I hope that the Government will tell me that it is not necessary. I beg to move.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
I understand the concerns of my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes. Again, however, this amendment is not necessary. Section 171B deals with time limits for taking enforcement action—essentially, serving an enforcement notice. It does not deal with ensuring compliance with that notice. A valid enforcement notice—in other words, one that has not been appealed against, or has been upheld on appeal—remains in force indefinitely unless the local planning authority withdraws it. If the person on whom it has been served does not comply, they can be prosecuted. The maximum penalty is a £20,000 fine in the magistrates’ courts, or an unlimited fine on indictment, and can be subject to a repeat prosecution if they still fail to comply. The penalty is a daily fine until compliance. The local planning authority can also do the works in default and recover its expenses from the landowner. So I believe that there is no need for the amendment, and I trust that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw it.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Again I thank the Minister. I am delighted that he has given me that answer. To have it in writing means that I can go back to the local authority and try to persuade it again to pursue the matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Development on green belt land
The appropriate planning authority may grant planning permission for development involving infilling on green belt land (within the meaning given by Planning Policy Guidance 2: green belts) if on that land sufficient infrastructure and services exist as to make the development reasonable.”
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I discussed this amendment to a certain extent at an earlier stage. Therefore, I do not feel I need to say very much, especially so late at night.
The reason for tabling it is that there are little pockets of between two and five acres in between lots of other houses and buildings. I know of some that are described as green belt and are so listed and yet there is a conference centre next to them and huge buildings around them. To my mind, those are infill sites. I do not know the government ruling as to what exactly comprises an infill site, but it seems to me that if you have a small patch of land, whatever its classification, it is not really green belt if it is just a little bit in the middle of places. Yet it might already have all the infrastructure of transport, electricity and the things that are needed for development, and could provide a valuable space for either a children’s home or housing or something of that type. It is for that reason that I move this amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, the issue of green belt is one of those matters which has caused great consternation. Obviously, we will have to await the final version of the NPPF. Of course, it is not for me to defend the NPPF in its current form, but as currently drafted it seems to address what the noble Baroness is in part seeking. The NPPF states that:
“A local planning authority should regard the construction of new buildings as inappropriate in Green Belt. Exceptions to this are: limited infilling in villages, and limited affordable housing for local community needs under policies set out in the Local Plan; or limited infilling or the partial or complete redevelopment of previously developed sites”.
That is envisaged within the NPPF as I understand it.
In terms of the infrastructure, it is not always right that the services and infrastructure exist before, rather than being provided as a consequence or as part of, the development. I understood that it might be implicit in the noble Baroness’s amendment that it needed to be there before, rather than arising as an alternative. Therefore, I struggle to support the amendment in its current form. But the issues around development in the green belt are very important. We need to track what is going to happen and what the final version of the NPPF will be.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my noble friend’s amendment seeks to allow infilling on green belt land if,
“sufficient infrastructure and services exist as to make the development reasonable”.
This test is not related to green belt policy, which is about preserving openness, preventing the unrestricted sprawl of built-up areas and preventing the merger of towns. You could well have land with sufficient infrastructure, but allowing development on it would put at risk the key principles of the green belt policy. In any case, the law already requires determinations under the Planning Acts to be made in accordance with the development plan,
“unless material considerations indicate otherwise”.
Infrastructure is one of the material considerations routinely taken into account by decision-makers in planning cases.
As observed by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, the draft national planning policy framework contains the Government’s proposed policies on planning, including the green belt. It includes exceptions, set out in a similar way as current green belt policy, for certain categories of development. For example, it allows for the re-use of buildings, and the extension or replacement of dwellings. It also provides for the infilling or redevelopment of previously developed sites. I believe that these policies provide the flexibility to achieve the outcomes which my noble friend is seeking.
Given that current national policy has delivered a strong level of protection, I do not think it appropriate to make changes to green belt policy through legislative means. If changes are required to green belt policy, they should be carefully considered as part of the ongoing consultation and, if appropriate, taken forward through the framework. I hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, it seems to me that the policy has always existed about being able to use infill sites. The real debate is: what is an infill? I remember the case of Little Paddock in Pinner from when I was on the Greater London Council. There were huge rows which went on for a period of a year or so about whether it was an infill. I do not know how it was eventually decided other than that eventually someone was allowed to build on it. Whereas in other cases I have met, people have been told, “Oh, well this has been a little smallholding, so if you put a barn on it, and you make it possible to live in the barn, you’ll be able progressively to convert it”, in the way that the Minister has just said, saying that you can rebuild and change things slightly. That seemed to be such a false way of allowing it, to have a creeping development into this infill site.
As I said, I have known some that were described as not being infills being definitely described as green belt even though there were huge conference centres adjoining them. It is a question of this definition of infill, which I hope can be clarified in due course. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Localism Bill
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts(14 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord McKenzie of Luton
That may be the case up to a point. How that works in practice remains to be tested, particularly given the pressures on the inspectors. We shall come to that point in a moment.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that I am old enough to have watched “Cathy Come Home”. I think I did; it was on a black and white television. It was a defining moment in our country. We are at risk of going back to that. These assessments must also be seen in the context of what is happening to housing benefit. We know that many people will be made homeless and that many will be uprooted from their current communities and forced into new ones. Following the point of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, about how robust and up to date those assessments are, they would also need to take account of such movements, which could be very significant.
I very much warmed to the comments of my noble friend Lady Whitaker and the noble Lord, Lord Boswell. The Minister’s response was that there is already a statutory responsibility. However, the reality is that to date it has not delivered for Gypsy and Traveller families. It is right that we should focus on that. It was absolutely commendable of the noble Lord and my noble friend to do so in the course of this debate.
My noble friend Lord Beecham, in supporting the amendment, said that we should look not just at social housing or affordable housing—whatever description we apply to it—but at the private rented sector as well. That is absolutely right: we have to look at all areas, particularly the private rented sector. We know that the formation of households over the next decade will increase—certainly at a faster rate than new homes are projected to be provided. That is the source of some challenge.
The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, made the point that it is not just about whether somebody can afford a property but about what they are affording. What is the quality of the home that they are able to access? That is why, like him, I am a great supporter of the social housing sector. I am sure the noble Lord himself remembers council house-building when it took place and Parker Morris standards, with decent garden sizes. That may not be easy for us to return to but it was indicative of a time when we believed that people should be properly and decently housed.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I was very involved in housing when Parker Morris standards were still used—
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I am sorry; I just wanted to raise the issue of Parker Morris standards, which I think I can do as the noble Lord is responding to that report.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I should be very interested to learn what the noble Baroness wanted to say about Parker Morris standards. Perhaps we can speak in the break.
My understanding is that the real difference between us here is whether this matter should be dealt with in guidance, through the NPPF or in the Bill. We believe that it is such a fundamental issue that it should be in the Bill. Indeed, if we are on the same page regarding what we want to achieve, I do not see why the Government cannot accede to having this as an integral part of the legislation. It is a key and fundamental—
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I am told that I am not out of order and that I can therefore ask the noble Lord a question. Is he aware that when the Parker Morris standards were in force, the standard of all the local authority housing, as it was at that time—social housing has widened since then with housing associations —was way above that produced by any commercial developer? I have heard noble Lords in this Chamber say the reverse of that, but that is not the case. Parker Morris was the town clerk of Westminster City Council. His standards were too high and could not continue to be afforded. Is the noble Lord aware of that?
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Indeed. I am certainly aware of the challenges that that produced but I hang on to the point that it was a good period for the provision of housing, with people, whatever their means, having the chance to live in decent houses in good neighbourhoods. Indeed, for 20-odd years I had the privilege of representing a patch on Luton council built just after the Second World War to those standards and it was a great place. However, that is a bit of a diversion from the amendments before us, and that is my fault.
As I said, the difference between us is whether this matter should be in the Bill or otherwise. I accept that the Government are not going to be moved on this. We will continue to make the arguments but, for the time being, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Localism Bill
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts(14 years, 4 months ago)
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“Power to require property to be maintained to appropriate standard
A local authority may by byelaws make provision requiring that, on receipt by the local authority of a petition from residents of a particular street or other residential area to the effect that one or more properties in their street or area are not being maintained to the standard appropriate to properties in that street or area, the owners of the property carry out such reasonable repairs and maintenance as are necessary to keep the property up to the average standard of repair of the other properties in the street or area.”
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I am so pleased that we have actually reached one of my amendments. I flew back from Sydney yesterday specifically to be here for it but I felt sure that another 25 would have popped in ahead of me again. Fortunately, that has not happened.
This amendment comes about because at the moment, councils have no authority to do anything to maintain standards of appearance—and buildings at all—and this can be very bad for other residents adjoining. The home that I sold in 1977 to very rich people, who now have vast resources in this country, was done up at that time and has not been touched since. It is really quite sad to go past and see the gutters falling off and the stucco all in pieces. People in that street told me that they have repeatedly asked if something could be done about it, and the council has said that no, it has no powers to even request this. These people have taken petitions up to the owners of that house, but nothing has happened. When I asked the council, it said that it has powers if something is unsafe and going to fall down, or if it is a listed building—although even if it is a listed building, it cannot ask for it to be maintained; it can only prevent it from actually falling down when it gets to that point. I was surprised that the council says that it has no powers in this respect.
It should not be a case of demanding that people keep a place in immaculate condition. I know of a similar case in Montpelier Square, where local residents get very distressed by this. It is worth thinking about having an enabling power for councils. I hope that it would be needed. I beg to move.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I have some sympathy with the noble Baroness, and welcome her on her return from her homeland. I trust she has not been suffering from jet lag; I will not detain her too long.
I am not sure that the amendment is necessarily the right way to deal with this. My understanding is that in conservation areas there are provisions under the Town and Country Planning Acts for steps to be taken to maintain properties of this kind. It is not without interest that in Edinburgh recently there have apparently been problems with requirements being imposed on local residents by the local authority—who appear to have powers similar to those advanced in this amendment—which have caused some controversy. Apparently large sums of money have had to be laid out on improving or maintaining properties, and some of those who are benefiting from those expenditures have been connected with the decision-making process. That would not be applicable if the amendment were carried, and one would hope that it would not occur. Nevertheless, it is difficult to define exactly what standards would be required.
There is, however, a more general point which applies to this and the other amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, and that is the general by-law-making powers of local government. This is something I took up with the previous Administration, and some modifications were made about that issue. It might be worth the Government looking at the extent to which councils are free to make by-laws as opposed to having to have everything approved by individual departments. Alongside that, perhaps the Government could look at the question of consent regimes generally, which is something again that I have been attempting to pursue for a number of years, including in some recent Written Questions.
The noble Baroness has touched on an issue, perhaps almost inadvertently, that is worth considering: the capacity of local authorities to make particular provisions for their areas without necessarily having to have everything approved by central government. I do not know how the Minister will respond; I suspect that he will acknowledge the good intentions but say that perhaps it is not appropriate for this Bill, and I certainly would not press him to go further than that. However, I ask the Government to take back the issues of by-law-making powers and consent regimes generally, not for the purposes of this Bill, but as part of a localist agenda.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, for introducing her amendment and welcome her back to Britain. Local authorities already have extensive powers to take action where a property is dangerous or having an adverse impact on the amenity of the neighbourhood. I see no need for additional powers. Under the Housing Act 2004, local authorities can tackle poor conditions across all residential properties. If a property is found to contain serious hazards, the local authority can instruct its owner to undertake any works necessary to ensure that it is safe. Inspections and any subsequent enforcement to address the disrepair can be triggered by complaints to the local authority.
Local authorities have a key role to play in identifying empty properties in their areas, and in developing strategies to bring them back into effective use. We encourage local authorities to work with owners to persuade them of the benefits of bringing their property back into use. However, where it is clear that owners are not prepared to co-operate with efforts to get their property occupied through agreement, local authorities have enforcement powers to deal with them. Further powers available to local authorities to tackle disrepair and poor maintenance include those in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. Where properties have an adverse impact on the amenity of the area, local authorities can require that they are tidied up, repainted and, where necessary, rebuilt. I hope this will satisfy the noble Baroness and that those who are concerned will have more luck in getting their local authorities to pursue the powers that they have.
I take on board the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, on the by-law issue. I confirm that the Government will look into that further.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I thank the Minister for his reply on this matter, which he went into in detail. I am even more grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who understood the sort of point that I was getting at. I hope we will see the day when special items of need for particular councils can be dealt with more directly in that way. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Power to make byelaws about smoke-free places
(1) A local authority may make byelaws designating as smoke-free any place or description of place that is not smoke-free under section 2 of the Health Act 2006.
(2) The place, or places falling within the description, need not be enclosed or substantially enclosed.
(3) The byelaws may provide for such places, or places falling within the description, to be smoke-free only—
(a) in specified circumstances,(b) at specified times,(c) if specified conditions are satisfied,(d) in specified areas,or any combination of those.(4) Terms used in this section have the same meanings as in the Health Act 2006.”
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, this amendment came to me because someone who lives near me in central London phoned me and said, “I don’t know what to do. I can’t open the windows on this swelteringly hot day because all the people who are working on the local building site are sitting along the garages below my residence, and the smoke is so intense that I can’t open the window. I am going to die of the heat”. She did not die of the heat; nevertheless, I rang the local council. It was not something I had ever thought about before. I said, “What can you do about it?”. The council said, “We can do nothing. We get these issues all the time, particularly with restaurants and bars. Lots of people now congregate outside them because they can’t smoke inside”. If anyone happens to live within reach of the smoke, it is absolutely deadly for them. It would be helpful if the council could make this a planning issue.
Last month, I read in the paper that Australia proposes to bring in completely smoke-free streets. I did not hear anything about that while I was there; no one mentioned it. It is obviously of more interest to the press here than it is to people there. That is a bit extreme. My amendment is fairly short and simple but I have had the most intolerant e-mails and letters from people, saying that I am a fascist who is trying to ruin their lives and take away their right to a bit of healthy smoking whenever they feel like it. It is obviously a very emotive issue—quite unnecessarily so. I am not suggesting anything wholesale. However, I am suggesting that people should have the right to live in their homes and open their windows without finding themselves so adversely affected. I beg to move.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, again, one sympathises with the motivation behind this amendment. Quite apart from the particular case to which the noble Baroness referred, it is not a particularly attractive sight to see people hanging about smoking in the street. However, the only grounds on which orders could be made would relate to the impact of that smoking on health.
Enclosed areas are of course covered by the existing legislation, and, as I understand it, there is power to designate areas other than enclosed areas, if, in the authority’s opinion, there is significant risk that without designation persons in the area would be exposed to significant quantities of smoke—areas where, although they are outdoors, there is a concentration of people or of prevailing structures around the area that might lead to people being exposed to the smoke. If that is indeed the case, as it appears to be under the Health Act 2006, there does not appear to be any need for the amendment. I would encourage local authorities to look at that Act. No doubt the Minister in replying will have more information about that.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, again I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their comments. Indeed, I have great sympathy for the amendment as it seems to me that the place immediately after the no-smoke zone ends is the problem territory, whether it is outside a public building, or wherever it may be.
The amendment would give local authorities an explicit power to make by-laws designating areas as smoke-free. The Health Act 2006 makes provision for the prohibition of smoking in enclosed public places and workspaces. It came into force in England on 1 July 2007. Section 4 of the Act provides regulation-making powers for the Secretary of State for Health to make further regulations—for England—designating as smoke-free any place or description of place that is not smoke-free under the Act. This could cover outdoor places. Therefore, if the evidence on the harms of exposure to second-hand smoke becomes more robust, and the Government’s preference for voluntary local action to extend smoke-free places where there is a clear need is shown not to be working, the Government can consider using Section 4 of the Health Act 2006 at a later date. I would say that, at the moment, the Government do not intend to make use of these powers. However, I know that colleagues in the Department of Health welcome the debate on this important issue and will continue to monitor developments and the evidence.
While we are sympathetic to local authorities making by-laws that preserve public health, our preference is to see local authorities promote the benefits of environments free from second-hand smoke on a voluntary basis. Creating smoke-free areas through legislation gives rise to complex issues, which I know that colleagues at the Department of Health would want time to consider carefully, and I do not think this is something we should be dealing with at this late stage of this Bill. As such, I am afraid that I cannot support the amendment and trust that the noble Baroness will be able to withdraw it.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I thank the Minister and the spokesman from the Opposition for their very good and sound comments. I did not mention earlier that in the particular case I referred to one person left a cigarette burning which set fire to one of the garages so there is obviously a bit more of a risk in that regard too. However, I thought that was a red herring and should not be brought up.
This is a serious issue. I do not know what will happen in the future. I appreciate the points made about this being perhaps more of a health issue and therefore I am pleased to have aired it today—what a silly remark, to say “I have aired it” when we are talking about smoking. I have taken on board the comments that have been made and thank noble Lords very much. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Licensing of pedicabs
(1) A local authority may by byelaws establish a scheme for the licensing of pedicabs in its area.
(2) Such a licensing scheme may make provision about—
(a) the compliance of pedicabs with road traffic legislation;(b) where pedicabs may be stationary whilst seeking business;(c) the playing of music in pedicabs;(d) the roadworthiness and appearance of pedicabs; and(e) such other matters as the local authority may determine.(3) In this section “pedicab” means a cycle constructed or adapted—
(a) to seat one or more passengers; and(b) for the purpose of being made available with a driver in the course of a business for the purpose of carrying passengers.”
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, it is rather an overdose of me today, but it does make up for all the times I have sat here quietly. I have mixed views about this amendment myself, particularly as yesterday I came back from Heathrow by cab and the taxi driver was very strongly opposed it. I thought that that was interesting. He said, “The moment you license them, you are legitimising them. They are so dangerous”. He had seen people injured. I find that this happens all the time when I am driving home in the evening. I will see a pedicab suddenly move from the left hand side of the traffic, without any signal, cut right across the traffic and possibly even do a U-turn. They really are a danger. In the central London area they are also a danger when they park on footpaths. People cannot walk past them and sometimes have to go out into the street to do so. It is a genuine problem.
I was interested in the cab driver’s remark asking whether you are legitimising pedicabs if you licence them, particularly as there is a Bill before the House or perhaps some other technical measure. However, this issue is being considered in a wider context. My points about loud music and so on are all perfectly legitimate, although I am not sure that this is the opportunity to consider them. Meanwhile, so that we can hear the Minister’s reply, I beg to move.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I skilfully avoided saying that this problem was unique to London, because I thought this issue might arise, and I might get challenged by someone like the noble Lord.
Westminster City Council is currently working up a voluntary registration scheme for pedicabs, with registration being incentivised by providing parking bays and pedicab ranks for members. Those operators and riders subscribing to the scheme will sign up to a code of practice, and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has already alluded to these developments. This registration scheme would then tie in with the provisions relating to the enforcement of road traffic offences in relation to pedicabs, which are included in the London Local Authorities and Transport for London (No. 2) Bill, currently before Parliament. Effective implementation of the provisions in the Bill relies on a system of licensing or registration being in place. The relevant clause could not come into force until a registration scheme for owners and riders has been approved by the Mayor of London.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I thank the noble Earl and the noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. It has been much wider and more interesting than I had expected. However it is an issue, and I would like to respond on a couple of points.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley said that it should apply to the whole of London. I draw attention to the fact that traffic varies tremendously in London. For example, on the subject of disabled parking, the blue badge scheme does not apply in any of the three central London boroughs. You have to have a blue badge and a local badge as well to take full advantage of disabled parking. If you have a blue badge, there are blue-badge places you can use, but you cannot use any other parking places. Each of the three central London boroughs said it would make it impossible for them, because they would be flooded by people coming from outside the boroughs. So this is a long-standing arrangement just for central London.
I do not agree with the noble Lord that you need to have licensing for pedicabs out in Havering, for example, which I represented at one time. I do not believe there are any pedicabs running around Havering. I think they are a fun thing in central London. However my concern is not the fun element, which I agree with my noble friend Lord Jenkin, is absolutely wonderful. In Bangkok it was great fun to travel around in them. However it is not a fun element if you are at risk of being injured due to their ignoring road behaviour. That is what worries me.
This is an issue that needs to be tackled. I accept that it might be better tackled somewhere else and in some other way. Perhaps LRT could deal with it selectively, but it has to be done selectively, because many boroughs will have no problem at all. If—as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley has said—Oxford already has pedicabs then there are other places which need this issue to be addressed now. But again, the areas will need to be limited.
I have listened to the debate and I think it is valuable to have it on record for when this issue comes up again as it surely will in some other capacity. Meanwhile I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I join the noble Lords, Lord Tope and Lord Jenkin, in congratulating the Minister. I raised one or two issues in relation to this matter in Committee and I think that the noble Earl has done a fantastic job in a short space of time to come up with a process that few can fault, if one is going to have fines at all, and they do arise. I warmly congratulate him and join others in hoping that this happens more often with other legislation that comes before your Lordships’ House.
Before I speak to my own amendments, I would like to follow up on a point that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, made about the retrospective nature. There will be a time when these clauses come into effect, but there is also a time when the European process moves forward from infraction proceedings and reasoned opinions to the court summons and finally the court decision. That can take several years. The UK Government have a good record in complying with EU regulations. I am involved in railway issues, and in the first railway package there are 13 member states with infraction proceedings against them. We are not one of them, except for a new one relating to the Channel Tunnel. On the whole, we have quite a good record, but quite often the cause of the eventual fine could be something that was created several years beforehand. The local authority may not have been able to do something, or something may have gone wrong and it is grinding on with the Government refusing to give way, and three or four years later it gets to the European Court. I hope that the Minister will look at the retrospective nature of this not only from the UK side but also from the European side as to where the so-called potential offence has been committed and when.
My amendment was of course a probing one. I am very grateful to the Minister for his answer, which he gave before I had the chance to speak to it. That enables me to ask another question to clarify things. The Minister said that the provision would apply to a private company carrying out or performing “public functions”. I assume that “public functions” in this respect means operating rail or inland waterway infrastructure, although that could be carried out by a private company. I am not convinced that the Rail Regulator has powers to enforce fines on Network Rail—I do not think that there is a regulator for inland waterways yet—when something contravenes European regulations. I am sure that there will be an answer to this but perhaps when he responds the Minister could agree to look at this matter further so that there is some clarity within Network Rail and eventually the British Waterways charity about the circumstances under which they might be liable for a fine. I conclude by congratulating Minister very strongly on a really good piece of legislation.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I am delighted by the policy statement but I have one question that I hope the Minister will be able to answer. In relation to panel membership, I notice that the statement of policy specifies:
“The relevant representative body will put forward nominations in respect of its members”,
of persons with sectoral experience, to the Minister. What opportunities will there be for bodies such as the Greater London Authority which are not part of a representative organisation to make nominations to the Minister in respect of panel membership? I would be grateful if he could answer that question, which probably relates to Amendment 195ZAJ but I find it so difficult when I look at all those amendments to know exactly which one it relates to.
Lord Beecham
I join other noble Lords in warmly congratulating the noble Earl on the manner in which this matter has now been put back on track. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, said that most of us would not have wished to have started from here, but where we are ending owes very much to the thoroughness, attention to detail and decisiveness of the noble Earl—qualities in which he emulates his distinguished grandfather. It is some 49 years since I had the pleasure of meeting the noble Earl’s grandfather and he made a significant impression on me, young as I was at that time. The noble Earl is doing so again today, not merely on me but on all Members of your Lordships' House.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, the noble Lord has drawn attention to a significant problem with commercial property but the same principle can apply to residential property, particularly in the private rented sector. There are a significant number of homes left empty—it runs into some hundreds of thousands. In urban areas in particular it is very often private rented properties that are left unoccupied. They are as much a blight on the local neighbourhood as empty commercial properties and of course the demand for accommodation is considerable. Just recently walking around the ward I represent I noticed a number of properties that have been empty for some years. They are not in particularly good condition but not sufficiently dangerous to allow the local authority to take steps. It would certainly be an incentive for landlords to let those properties and bring them into use for the benefit of the whole area if a similar principle were adopted for residential properties as the noble Lord proposes for commercial properties. I hope the Government will look sympathetically on that aspect of it and endorse the noble Lord’s amendment.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I am slightly concerned by this amendment as I think there is an international problem occurring of people buying things online to such an extent—I heard this in Australia while I was there and I believe it is the same everywhere—that people are closing up small shops because there is simply no way they can afford to compete with online purchases. I do not know what will happen in these instances. What will local authorities do? Will the people who own the shops be encouraged to convert them into residential accommodation or would it be considered very damaging to the whole high street suddenly to find that instead of shops in continuity in a row suddenly two or three were houses? In the past there were lots of little shops that were once houses. Would we be prepared to see the reverse of that happening?
I think it is a very complicated issue, and, if the landlord simply cannot get a tenant now, what does he do? Does he allow the property to fall down? I do not know what the answer is, particularly with the shop premises.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, raises a significant issue. I can clearly see the point that he is making. If the Government are not minded to accept it, I hope that the noble Lord will be able to give us some insight into the Government’s thinking on how they intend to deal with this problem. My noble friend Lord Beecham raised a significant point about residential property, which is probably just as important as the point about commercial property.