Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education (Transfer of Functions etc) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Storey

Committee stage
Tuesday 26th November 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 30 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, partly because—I remind the Committee of this—I worked for City & Guilds for 20 years. I was working for it when national vocational qualifications were introduced—1990, I think—precisely to reduce the complexity in the qualification system. There are times when one feels that one has been around too long, but that was exactly it.

Those qualifications came in with levels 1 to 5 in order to be a simple way in which people could understand practical qualification levels. Levels 6 and 7, covering managerial and degree-level subjects, were then introduced as well. The qualifications were called “vocational” because we always wanted to include craft qualifications as well as technical ones. I worry now about what is happening to the encouragement of craft qualifications, which are vital to the economy of the country. I am not suggesting that we go back to NVQs again—they had their day and they went—but it worries me that memories are so short on this. It is a complex system because anything as complex as the myriad variations of employment inevitably will be so, but having a simple way in which one can measure levels of expertise seems to have some advantage to it.

This made me wonder how much discussion there has been with the awarding bodies. City & Guilds has been around for well over 100 years, as I say. Obviously, apprenticeships have been around since the Middle Ages, but I am not suggesting that we go back to then to find out what they did with them. The BTEC has been around for at least 50 or 60 years, I think. There is a mass of expertise there, yet they do not seem to be referenced or involved; I wonder why this is because they have some very useful skills to offer to this Bill.

I just felt that I needed to go down memory lane when I saw that the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, had referred in his amendment to reducing

“the complexity of the qualifications system”.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, I added my name to the important amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare. I was fascinated to hear that he actually read the Labour manifesto; that is very impressive. I also support my noble friend Lord Addington’s amendment.

It is quite important that the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, and the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, mentioned mayoral combined authorities—the noble Lord called them pan-regional partnerships, which I had not heard before—and local skills improvement partnerships. Can the Minister tell us how those will feed into the department or how she will consult them?

Technical and Further Education Bill

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Storey

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 27th February 2017 Grand Committee

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I wholly support what the noble Lord, Lord Watson, said, while equally recognising that benefits are not directly a matter for the Department for Education.

There are anomalies in the way in which we treat young people. For those in approved education or approved training, child benefit continues until the child 20 years-old. Reading the list of what counts as that, it seems even more incongruous that apprenticeships are not included. For instance, it includes A-levels, Scottish Highers, NVQs up to level 3—which, of course, can be closely linked to apprenticeships—a place on the access to apprenticeships scheme, foundation apprenticeships for traineeships in Wales, the Employability Fund programmes and places on Training for Success. There is a whole raft of education and training courses on which young people continue to get their benefits, but they lose them for apprenticeships.

We know that only 10% of apprenticeships are taken up by young people on free school meals, which is surely an indicator that that is a disincentive, particularly for families, because they will lose out on additional benefits when a child goes into an apprenticeship. An apprenticeship salary on minimum wage may be barely over £3 an hour, so the loss of child benefit and tax credits may be a significant penalty for that family to bear.

The National Union of Students said:

“If apprenticeships are going to be the silver bullet to create a high-skilled economy for the future, the government has to go further than rhetoric and genuinely support apprentices financially to succeed”.


We urge the Minister, in the interests of joined-up government, to talk to his colleagues in the benefits department to see whether something can be done to ensure that disadvantaged young people do not feel that this is a major disincentive to taking up apprenticeships.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, I spoke on this issue at Second Reading, so I just reiterate what my colleagues have said. It seems strange that benefits are available to young people until the age of 18, so we can have a university student who has a couple of lectures and a couple of tutorials a week, if they are lucky, who gets the benefit, and a young person doing an apprenticeship, where 20% of the time should be for training, who loses that money. As we heard from my noble friend Lady Garden, only 10%—let us underline that—of apprentices come from those entitled to free school meals. If we really believe in social mobility, we should be asking why it is only 10% and whether finance is a handicap.

The National Society of Apprentices said in its written evidence:

“It seems incongruous to us that structural barriers exist to disincentivise the most disadvantaged from taking up an apprenticeship”.


We need to take those comments on board. I realise this is slightly beyond the scope of the Bill, but it would be helpful if, in his reply, the Minister could suggest that we meet his colleagues outside the Committee and talk about this issue because if there is a resolution, it would really help those people in society whom we must support.

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[Lord Storey]

My Lords, I support the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. FE Week seems to be getting quite a few mentions. I came across a piece on training providers by Peter Cobrin, who runs the Apprenticeships England Community Interest Company, which is important to highlight. He says that training providers feel,

“vulnerable, unrepresented, unsupported, unprotected, exploited and undervalued”.

Let us not forget that there are some very good training providers, just as in higher education there are some very good private providers and colleges. However, quite frankly, some need examining carefully. As the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, said, it is important to remember that many of the people who go to these private providers take out big loans, and if that private provider collapses or reforms, they are left. That is not good enough. The noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, said it is important that accountability catches up with them. I hope that, following her wise words, we might look more carefully at this area between now and Report.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I support these amendments and the views of the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. Equally, I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and my noble friend Lord Storey say about getting the balance of this right. That is important.

I have one small thing to say on Amendment 18. I agree that it is almost impossible to get SMEs to participate meaningfully in these sorts of activities, however much you wish them to do so. The federation can sometimes be helpful in providing for somebody to speak, but individual SMEs very seldom have the time or interest to take part. In Amendment 18, proposed new paragraph (b) refers to, as well as employers,

“at least one person engaged in delivering relevant education linked to the standard being assessed”.

It is important that this group of people includes trainers and awarding bodies, who bring a dimension to these affairs. To have a broad range of people within this group would be particularly important.

Technical and Further Education Bill

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Storey

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 22nd February 2017 Grand Committee

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I support these amendments. We had extensive discussions on these issues during the passage of the Higher Education and Research Bill, and they are no less relevant to further education colleges. Institutional autonomy is as important for colleges, where the people who work in them really know what works for their pupils and students, and academic staff having the freedom to question and test received wisdom is just as important for colleges as it is for universities. So is freedom of speech and preventing unlawful speech, which seems an increasing aspect of student life these days. In a way, it is almost more relevant for colleges as they have such a wide variety of students under their roofs. Both these amendments are entirely relevant to this Bill.

[Lord Storey]

I feel quite strongly about this at both levels. Looking back 10 or 20 years, we would never have thought that we would be debating the need for academic freedom and freedom of speech in 2017. If something is against the law of the land, that person should not be allowed to propagate it in any way, but the notion that students no-platform particular speakers is totally wrong. We should say loudly and clearly that it must not happen. I just want to add my voice to these two very important amendments.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Storey

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 16th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, who is not well, I shall move this amendment and speak to this group. We wish her a speedy recovery. The Bill proposes to reverse the current legal position that prevents Ministers giving guidance and directions about particular courses of study. We have been told that the power is needed to resolve an existing legal lack of clarity about the Secretary of State’s power to communicate his—in this case—priorities. While the Government’s amendment means that the Secretary of State cannot now guide or direct the Office for Students to prevent the closure of existing courses or the creation of new ones, it will, nevertheless, still allow the Secretary of State to decide, in part, what subjects should be funded.

Although most funding for teaching will come from fees backed by student loans, direct funding from the Office for Students is essential to meet the additional costs of subjects that are expensive to teach; for example, chemistry and engineering, et cetera. The Bill would give the Secretary of State a new power to tell the Office for Students not to fund a particular subject if that subject cost more to teach than the maximum fee that the university was allowed to charge. This goes significantly beyond the current power to give general directions about ministerial priorities, which the Funding Council translates into allocations to universities.

With these proposed amendments, Ministers would still be able to give the Office for Students guidance and direction about their priorities for the funding available but the final decisions on funding for high-cost subjects would be taken by the Office for Students, as they are now by the Funding Council. I beg to move.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I support the amendments in this group to which I have added my name and those that have come from the Cross Benches—Amendments 69 and 510—on which I think we will be hearing shortly. These amendments come out of the report from the Delegated Powers Committee, which claims that the wide range of functions that are now being conferred on the Office for Students will give it the ability to bring change to the whole of the higher education sector. We consider that the guidance issued by the Secretary of State under Clause 2 will act as a significant control over how the Office for Students exercises its functions. However, we cannot guarantee that Secretaries of State will always be wise and non-interventionist, and I think that these amendments will provide much-needed safeguards in the Bill.

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[Lord Storey]

My Lords, your Lordships’ House has an excellent record on the issue of mental health. In fact it was this House that persuaded the Government, by insisting on it, on parity of NHS treatment of physical and mental illness.

On many issues we are persuaded by our own personal experiences. I remember taking my daughter the couple of hours’ drive to university, five years ago now. A couple of years later she said to me, “You don’t realise the abject horror that was. You put me in the car with all my possessions and dropped me off at this strange place where I knew no one and had to sink or swim”. In her halls she befriended and became close to a girl who was in her first year and whose sister, a year older, was at another university. Very tragically, those girls’ father then died at a relatively young age. Both sisters were completely traumatised. You would be; you are a young girl away from home for the first time, and your father dies. One university was absolutely stunning in the support that it gave that girl. Her sister at the other university did not even get to see her personal tutor; no support was given at all. That is the difference. That is why this amendment says, importantly, that the university “must”—not “may”—provide services for mental health.

It is often said that when it comes to mental health, ignoring the problem—if it is even recognised in the first place—is not the solution. However, neither is dealing with it alone. Nationally, only 13% of the NHS budget is currently committed to mental health services, despite the fact that mental health illness accounts for 28% of the total burden to the NHS. The problem in many universities across the UK is the same: the underfunding of support services does not accurately reflect today’s reality. Many thousands of children and young people when at university are isolated, unhappy and—because of the pressures of the new regime, if you like—perhaps have eating disorders and self-harm. Tragically, of course, some can take their own lives.

There is still huge stigma around mental health, which means that young people are not getting the support they need. The amendment is important not only for those who might develop mental health problems during their time at university but for those who have experienced mental health problems in the past. Young people who need help and support from mental health services can find themselves with no help or support when they most need it. To get any service from adult mental health services, the threshold in terms of severity of illness is higher than for children and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, so many young people are locked out from receiving the service. For some, their illness has to reach a crisis point before they receive the service that they need, with the effect that their entry to the service is more traumatic and costly to the young person, their family and the service than if their needs had been met earlier. Differences between service locations and the style of the two services alienate many young people, who end up slipping off the radar of services. Ensuring that mental health support services are available to students when they need them is really important.

I have one final observation. There is a clear link between poor mental health and student retention. The emphasis on student retention is higher in those institutions that provide proper mental health support than in those that do not. I hope we will realise that, just as we have done in the education service as a whole and in the NHS, providing a service in universities is hugely important. Sometimes we say, “Oh, there’s no money available”, but of course there is money available. I sometimes have a little wry smile on my face when I get to Euston station and see all the billboards advertising different universities. The cost of that runs into hundreds of thousands of pounds. Surely we can find the money for every university to provide mental health support for its young students—not “may”, but “must”.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment. In coalition, our Health Minister, Norman Lamb, campaigned staunchly for parity of esteem and funding for mental health in order to bring it up to the same standards as physical health. We are still a long way from achieving that parity.

My noble friend has spoken particularly about students. In the amendment we included care for university staff, many of whom work under intense pressure. The introduction of new assessment measures in the Bill may well increase those pressures on staff, many of whom may be on insecure contracts, with high ambitions, high expectations and long hours. We know that many universities already have a great duty of care to their staff as well as their students, but this measure would see all universities, as places of study and work, fulfil their duty of care to both their staff and their students.

Child Safety: Video Games

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Storey

Monday 8th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

The noble Baroness makes some valid points there. The PEGI ratings now have traffic light warnings to try to make it clearer which are the particularly inappropriate games for children. It is also trying to make clear that the age-rating symbols relate to the content of the game, not to the playability, because that has also been a misunderstanding. There are prominent statements on the website, askaboutgames.com, which has had a quarter of a million visitors since it was set up, and which has a great many explanatory aspects. The noble Baroness is right that there are different sorts of unsuitability—but there are symbols on the PEGI guidance as to whether the game involves violence, pornography, fear, and so on, which again should guide both parents and young people.

[Lord Storey]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that parents generally have regard to the classification of films by the British board. That is probably a result of widespread consultation with parents. Will the games industry regulatory body have the same consultation with parents to ensure that they understand how the labelling and marking works?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My noble friend makes a valid point. Of course, we need to get the communication to parents as accurate as we can. The difference between film classification and games classification is that games are interactive, children are playing them with people on screen, and the graphics have become ever more lifelike and realistic since the days when they were little cartoon characters, so it is really important is that both children and parents are aware of what these games mean.

Education: Part-Time University Study

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Storey

Monday 3rd June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

First, I congratulate the noble Baroness on her appointment as president of Birkbeck. Of course, Birkbeck is one of the tremendous organisations, along with the Open University, that provide the major part of opportunities for part-time students. Certainly, we are hoping that with the introduction of loans for part-time students for the first time, that message will get through and encourage more part-timers to study. Although I cannot stand here hand on heart and agree that the Government will implement every last dot and comma of the Universities UK report, I assure her that we will take it very seriously and keep talking to Birkbeck and the OU about what more can be done.

[Lord Storey]

My Lords, as my noble friend the Minister has just said, it was this Government who introduced loans for part-time students for the first time, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, will be aware. Will the Minister tell the House what the Government are doing to increase awareness of the availability of income-contingent loans among part-time students, many of whom are much more cautious with their money?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My noble friend is right. I have just mentioned the student tour. We also know that the Student Room has dedicated information on finance for part-time students, and we hope that the messages that go out to the different universities and institutions that particularly look after part-time students will encourage them to take advantage of the finances that are available. He is quite right that the older students may well be more cautious, but of course most of the part-time students will also be earning in some capacity or another and therefore may feel that this is a good use of their money.

Education: Languages

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Storey

Tuesday 12th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, the Asset Languages programme was indeed valuable. However, we are introducing a range of other language provisions, from school through to university, to ensure that our language skills increase over the years.

[Lord Storey]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister may not be aware that the Select Committee report, Roads to Success: SME Exports, was published on Friday. One of its recommendations was about the importance of foreign languages, particular those not traditionally taught in schools: for example, Portuguese, Russian and Chinese. Has the Ministry thought about how we can develop these languages, which are crucial to our exports? A thought might be Saturday schools.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My noble friend makes an interesting point. Many schools up and down the land have after-school clubs in languages, and some have Saturday schools as well. There are also supplementary schools that meet at the weekend. These are largely set up by specific ethnic communities and are where children who go to a state school during the week learn their heritage language: for instance, Arabic, Polish or Greek. However, I agree that there is more that we can do, and Saturday clubs might provide a way through.

Education: English Baccalaureate Certificate

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Storey

Monday 14th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

Design is of key importance but the English baccalaureate is not compulsory. It is quite possible for schools to offer other provision and design will feature strongly in the alternative provision that schools can offer.

[Lord Storey]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the UK music industry contributes nearly £4 billion to the UK economy. Sadly, since the introduction of the EBacc in 2010, we have seen the number of people studying and teaching music declining. How can we reverse that decline? Does the Minister think that having an arts pillar as part of the EBacc may be the solution?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My noble friend again speaks with the expertise of a head teacher. The Government certainly recognise the valuable contribution that music makes, not just to the economy but to the quality of life as well. We have published the national plan for music, which should enable all children to learn a musical instrument, to make music with others in an orchestra or band, to learn to sing and generally to have the opportunity to progress. We certainly hope that that will encourage more young people and give them the opportunity to pursue music.

Leveson Inquiry

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Storey

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I agree with my noble friend that that is the position, and that a lot of lessons will come out of the Leveson inquiry that could range very much wider than the remit that was set for it. We certainly hope that the end of the inquiry will not be the end of the matter and that these various disturbing cases will be taken forward and we will reach a resolution.

[Lord Storey]

Where are we up to on the Government’s commitment to a statutory register on the lobbyists of public affairs committees, and when are we likely to see legislation enacted?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My noble friend is quite correct that in January the Cabinet Office announced that it was looking actively at a statutory register of lobbyists. It was interesting that we saw in the debate just before this one support for the positive power of lobbyists to make valuable changes to things going forward. On the actual dates, I am afraid that I do not have the answer, but I will write to him.

Social Networking Sites

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Storey

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, the Government are committed to tackling bullying on social networking sites by working with industry, academia, charities and parenting groups to develop tools and information for children and parents aimed at keeping children safe online. The Government are pressing the internet industry in the UK and in Europe to implement clear and simple processes for dealing with abuse online. The Government have also recently reviewed their cyberbullying policy.

[Lord Storey]

The Minister will be aware of the hugely increasing problem of cyberbullying by and of children and young people, particularly in schools. She will also be aware of how easy it is for children under age to set up and operate an account without parental permission. Will she meet the industry, teaching organisations and children’s welfare organisations to discuss the problem and how further safeguarding of our young children can be put in place?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My noble friend speaks with great experience from his distinguished teaching career. The Government are aware of how proficient young children can be at setting up accounts and using the internet generally. We are backing the launch by the UK Council for Child Internet Safety of a one-stop approach to advise on online safety which will occur on 7 February. On my noble friend’s last question, I should be very happy to go ahead with the meeting as he suggests.

Economy: Tourism

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Storey

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

Once again, I really cannot claim sole responsibility for daylight saving. This issue comes up on various occasions in different contexts. A Private Member’s Bill going through the other place is looking at this. The issue will not go away and is under constant discussion. The one thing the Government have made clear is that they would not wish the four countries of the UK to be on different timescales. We wish all four countries to agree if we make the change.

[Lord Storey]

My Lords, we have heard that the Government have identified tourism as one of the five industries which will drive the UK economy. Given that next year we join the EU Emissions Trading Scheme, which will see taxation for travellers to the UK increase, and given that many of our European competitors are doing away with aviation taxation to stimulate tourism, what is our response to protecting our own tourism industry, also given that, in terms of tourism taxation disadvantage, the UK is 134th out of 139?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My noble friend raises a very important issue. We are fully aware that tourism is a very competitive industry, so the UK must always ensure that it is not being outgunned on different fronts by other countries, that the unique assets in our countries, which tourists might want to visit, make it worth while and that the finances do not discourage people from coming here rather than going elsewhere. All these matters are currently under consideration to try to ensure that we make the most of people coming to our country and that they get a warm welcome here.