Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Finlay of Llandaff and Lord Jackson of Peterborough

Committee stage
Friday 13th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

As usual, the noble Lord makes a very apposite point and reinforces my arguments.

Time is pressing, so if I can beg the indulgence of your Lordships’ House, I will just develop slightly my support for the points that my noble friend Lord Shinkwin made at the beginning of this debate. The danger that terminally ill patients, accustomed to trusting medics who care for them, will sense that they should do what their doctor is telling them when they are only suggesting the option of assisted suicide is greatly heightened where, for instance, learning disabilities are in the mix. My noble friend made reference to Ken Ross of the National Down Syndrome Policy Group, who was quite right when he said:

“People with Down syndrome have a very complex and unique speech and communication profile. They are highly suggestible. Even someone wearing a uniform could suggest a position of authority to them and something they should show acquiescence to. The acquiescence bias risk from people with Down syndrome is extraordinary.”


This was mentioned by my noble friend.

“They could have a seeded view around what they think that person wants to hear and talk about without fully understanding the position”.

I assume that by “a seeded view”, Mr Ross means that the idea is planted in their mind, by a doctor mentioning assisted suicide, that this is what that doctor would prefer. Others, more expert, might put me right.

Other similar points were made by my noble friend Lady Monckton, in her superb speech, about the dangers of someone such as her daughter Domenica, who has Down syndrome, being advised by a doctor new to her that a terminal condition might mean it is best to have her life ended—without any legal obligation to discuss this with parents, other family members or someone independent, as the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, propose. As she said, fear, terror and a total lack of comprehension would sit alongside her daughter’s highly suggestible disposition.

The Commons, in fairness, did ensure that the Bill now has extra safeguards for those with learning disabilities, but these are focused on training and an advocate from the first declaration—far further down the road than the preliminary discussion. Actually, the experience in Australia is that training around the specific bespoke issue of coercion is very limited, and that needs to be looked at. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord will address that in his concluding remarks. This is when framing effects will occur and will be the starting point for vulnerable people misunderstanding the options or feeling pressure. By the time an advocate is in place, the person they are working for might have a fixed idea, which the advocate will not want to ride roughshod over. Clause 5 therefore needs strengthening to address this inconsistency, which is a key concern of experts in learning difficulties.

Hence the question that some noble Lords may be asking, about the need for prohibition, particularly where Down syndrome and learning disabilities are in play, because these might be the patients most likely to provoke cost concerns but least likely to discern that this motivation, not their best interest, is the main reason for raising the possibility of assisted suicide. I have to say that that would be a minority of cases, and I am not making that point about the vast majority of clinicians.

In conclusion, it is for these reasons that I strongly support Amendment 162 and others in this group.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I have two amendments in this group. We have heard a lot of comments about the real world and what is actually going on now, today, out there in healthcare. It will be very interesting to hear how the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, responds to all the criticisms and to the way the inherent dangers in Clause 5 have been highlighted.

My Amendment 201 concerns children. A little boy with advanced malignancies said to me, “I'm going to die when my goldfish dies”. He went on to talk through what he wanted when he was dying and how he would play football in heaven with another boy who had died recently. Not long after, his goldfish was found floating. My strenuous attempts to resuscitate his goldfish failed, and he gently died soon after.

That was some years ago. Today, children live off the internet, not just off what they hear from other children. They know about the debate on this Bill—some raise it in “Learn with the Lord” sessions. If a child is asking questions about this, they must be able to express their fears if they are already ill. They often speak with remarkable frankness. Children’s awareness is phenomenal. They deserve gentle, honest planning of their care that also explains why they are ineligible for assisted suicide. Hence my wording, but the wording of the noble Lord, Lord Rook, provides much clearer guidelines for clinicians involved, to allow them to listen but in no way to hint that the child will be eligible.

Assisted suicide is not a medical treatment. It falls outside McCulloch and Montgomery rulings, hence my Amendment 159. As has been said, if a doctor raises assisted death unprompted, the implication is that this is something you should consider—a tacit implication that this might be your best option. Addressing the comments by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, it is a doctor’s duty of care to sensitively explore with open questions and careful listening, to discuss whatever the person wishes to discuss at their initiation. That is patient autonomy and control. Mencap, the Association for Palliative Medicine and the Royal College of Psychiatrists have all warned how patients’ trust gives doctors a dangerous ability to steer decisions if the suggestion comes from the doctor.

Listening with undivided attention is crucial in gentle, honest communication in the face of patients’ anguish. Patients hang on to our every word, so suggesting it as an option signposts them in that direction. It abandons suicide prevention duties under the Mental Health Act and the state’s duty under Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights. The amendments overall have a common theme of making the autonomy of the patient paramount in these discussions, their being able to raise assisted death in their own time, at their own pace and at their instigation. I hope these amendments will be taken heed of.

Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill

Debate between Baroness Finlay of Llandaff and Lord Jackson of Peterborough

Thursday 22nd May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the very good amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hampton. If we are spending significant amounts of money on collecting this data and building a database and we have some of the best research facilities in the world, it seems to be sensible when looking at longitudinal studies to utilise that data properly.

My second and more prosaic point is that maybe I am missing something, but it seems to me that subsection (5) and subsection (14) are at variance with each other. They are quite loosely drafted in new Section 16LB. Will the Minister comment on that, because the great thing about the noble Lord’s amendment is that it has pointed out that there seems to be a discrepancy between the two subsections?

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I shall briefly speak in support of these amendments and of research. We do not need to have a national database established in order to do research because, first, research has to go through research ethics committees, so that is carefully scrutinised. You could take a representative sample of areas and use properly anonymised data. We can do that now. We can anonymise properly rather than using the old-fashioned pseudo-anonymisation, which was not helpful.

But in all these areas, I am afraid, we lack the evidence that we need to make sure that all our services are best targeted. When we are looking at very vulnerable children, we need to know which flags that are currently yellow flags should become red flags and which items do not show a correlation—although there has been an urban myth that they do correlate—so that the index of suspicion is appropriately targeted. To pick up on the point made by my noble friend earlier about having criteria, it is only through good research that we will get good criteria to determine the point at which we trigger an alert that a child is at risk and get that to happen earlier. It may well be that we are missing some important pointers just because they are not in people’s current consciousness, and there is a real danger in reacting to what I would call urban myths.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Baroness Finlay of Llandaff and Lord Jackson of Peterborough

Report stage
Monday 15th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, very briefly, I too added my name to Amendment 16, so well introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly. I simply remind the House that, when we remove legislation and regulations, it can have unintended consequences. There is evidence that accidents happen. For example, if we abandon working time directives and regulations, when people are overtired their accidents can be fatal—and there have been fatal accidents. Let us not lose sight of the clear evidence of harms when regulations are no longer in place, because lost lives cannot be reclaimed or replaced. The amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, provides a check mechanism for Parliament to look at regulations and allow scrutiny before things are abandoned. Therefore, although I do not anticipate Amendment 16 being pressed to a vote, I strongly support Amendment 2.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak—briefly, I hope—to the Government’s Amendment 1. I direct your Lordships back to the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who is absolutely right: this Bill, in its current position on the Order Paper, is substantially different from the Bill that was considered by the House of Commons and at Second Reading by this House. If we are to properly scrutinise and analyse the Bill, and have proper oversight of it, we have to be cognisant of that fact.

Notwithstanding the comments of my noble friend the Deputy Chief Whip, where else are we going to acknowledge the very substantial and significant change that has come as a result of the Government’s announcement last week? It is a reasonable point to make. If this were any other Bill—any other potentially epoch-making primary legislation—your Lordships would be up in arms about the fact that we are rushing through on Report the Government’s amendment to Clause 1, which effectively rips up the Government’s policy on the Bill.

I defer to no one in my admiration for my noble friend Lord Callanan, the Minister. I worked with him in DExEU in the run-up to Article 50 and the TCA. He is one of the most gifted Minsters. He has obviously had a very difficult time in your Lordships’ House, putting a viewpoint that has not always been universally popular.

However, the wider context is very important, as put forward by my noble friend Lady Noakes. The Prime Minister did say that in his first 100 days as PM we would review or repeal post-Brexit EU laws. Indeed, that bastion of blue in tooth and claw Conservatism, the Independent newspaper, described the government retreat as a course of action that

“turns the logic of the bill on its head”.

I do not underestimate the task that we as a Government—or this House and the Government—gave to civil servants. In fact, the agency Thomson Reuters estimated in 2017 that 52,741 laws were introduced in the UK as a result of EU legislation between 1990 and 2017. Many of them of course were worthwhile and much needed, but many were about protecting boondoggle schemes, market distortions, oligopolistic behaviour and were designed to ossify market dominance, restrict the need for innovation and lock out more agile and dynamic competitors.

Notwithstanding that, I welcome the Government’s sincere endeavours to both review the regulations and to deregulate more broadly. But we have seen that 52,000 shrink to 600. Most EU laws will remain on the statute book, seven and a half years after in the EU referendum we decided to take back control and trust our own elected politicians rather than a foreign legal entity—in this case the European Court of Justice.

Ministers pray in aid the capacity and capability—or not—of civil servants to scrutinise, prioritise and audit so much of our retained corpus of EU law. But I saw, in my role as a special adviser in the run-up to the TCA and the Article 50 process, that with firm and principled political direction and drive, so much more could have been achieved with vision rather than capitulation.

In fairness, it is not solely the responsibility of this Administration. I concede in all fairness—it would be churlish not to—that the previous Johnson Administration could and should have legislated for a Bill in 2021 rather than last autumn. The Government have resiled from a well-understood political commitment, which voters supported with a strong mandate, and which passed, as my noble friend Lady Lawlor said, in January in the Commons.

No one ever voted for these proposals. The Government have picked a side: big business, senior civil servants, special interests, well-remunerated lobbyists and the ex-Mandarin cohorts ably represented in this House. Leave was the biggest vote in British electoral history, but that counts for nothing as opposed to the pearl-clutching vapours of big business, self-interest and shareholder value dressed up as defending parliamentary sovereignty and concern for “significant uncertainty”. Whither the vision of self-government, independence, democratic renewal and sovereignty of June 2016? Instead, we have the cold pragmatism and cynicism of a technocratic elite.

This has not been handled well by the Government. I refer in particular to the lack of proper scrutiny by the European Scrutiny Committee in the other place, and the failure of the Minister to properly attend to those issues.

I will finish by making reference to Schedule 1. We are offered the mere scraps from the table with the new schedule. It is not so much a bonfire of regulations but a damp, fizzing Catherine wheel. There is no fundamental interest in that schedule in the governance of our country.