European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendment moved by the noble and learned Lord. I do not know from whom I am quoting, but the Joint Ministerial Committee is a “poor thing, but our own.” It has not worked very well, because it has not met very frequently. There has been no programme, its membership has varied, and it has not been a particularly effective arrangement so far. Hence, in my view, it is important that it should be put on to a statutory basis, in which case a report would be made to both Houses of Parliament and we would know where we stood. So far, we do not know.

The devolved Administrations never know when the current Joint Ministerial Committee will meet. It is important, for the sake of the union, to achieve a consensus where possible. In our discussion yesterday on another amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, it was obvious that there had been no discussion with the Welsh Assembly. I fear that the Minister’s reply to our debate was less than persuasive. There is an alternative arrangement that could have been used under Section 109 for an Order in Council that would result in a consensual as opposed to an imposed change. Hence, I very much support the amendment in the hope that there will be a change of heart in Westminster.

I fear that there is still a denial in the Westminster establishment that devolution has taken place at all. It has been there for a long time now and it is part of our establishment. Legislators, particularly those who draft Bills for the Government, should recognise that the devolved Administrations have been set up within the United Kingdom and are there to further the union. I would hope that if this amendment is accepted, it would strengthen the union and put the committee on a proper basis, and then there would be an expectation of regular, frequent meetings with serious and senior representation of the Westminster Government.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, for his words in support of this amendment, which has my name attached to it. I reiterate the words of my noble and learned friend Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, who has made it clear that we are seeking to persuade the Government to think again.

I want to respond to some of the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport. Our amendment is not prescriptive; it simply requires that if there is a forum, it should meet regularly, but it does not stipulate how often it should meet. Meeting means face-to-face discussion, and the forum is there to discuss the means of mitigating the impact on the constituent parts of the United Kingdom of the economic and security aspects envisaged in the future relationship. It is to avoid problems arising in the future.

We have already heard that negotiations with the EU are likely to result in agreements that have a very direct impact on many aspects of devolved competence. I would like to highlight just a few of these, some of which are very close to my heart.

The first is the capacity of Welsh universities to access EU research funds and collaborative projects in the future. Over the last 20 years, access to these funds, and to the networks they have generated, has proved critical to boosting the research capacity of Welsh higher education institutions, including medical research. Indeed, a finding from Cardiff University made headlines yesterday about new ways to manage cancers. We have been reliant on, and have built on, the funds we have accessed. The interaction between projects funded by research and development framework programmes and those funded by structural funds has been particularly important, as the Welsh Government have demonstrated in their publication on research and development after Brexit. Whether and how the UK, and therefore Wales, can access these funds will be determined by the negotiations with the EU.

The second aspect—whether there will be any reciprocal arrangements in future between the EU and the UK to access health services—is again a matter for the negotiations. I would support such arrangements, but it needs to be recognised that if such commitments are made by the UK Government, it is the Welsh NHS that will have to pick up the cost of treatment provided in Wales.

The third issue is procurement rules. Procurement is a devolved matter, and the Welsh Government are certainly interested in strengthening the way in which procurement can support, rather than undermine, local purchasing. But we know that the EU, as part of the insistence on maintaining a level playing field, will start from the position that its approach to procurement must continue even post Brexit. Wales needs to have a voice in the discussion within the UK negotiating team about any trade-off between flexibility on procurement and unfettered access to the EU market.

I could give many more examples: the future of state aid rules governing the assistance which the Welsh Government may give to Welsh businesses; access to European markets for Welsh agri-food products, such as lamb, beef and seafood; and whether or not Welsh students and pupils will have access to the Erasmus+ programme of student exchanges—to name but a few.

The key point is that the Welsh Government and the Senedd will be bound by the outcomes of the negotiations, which will begin in only a few weeks. We have already heard that Ministers of the Crown have the powers to force the devolved institutions to comply if they disagree with these outcomes. In these circumstances, it surely makes sense for the Government to start from the position where the default is to reach agreement with the devolved Administrations in the approach to negotiations. Otherwise, I fear that the result will be bitter and very prolonged conflict between the devolved institutions and the Government, which would seriously threaten the union itself.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I support the amendment and respectfully disagree with some of the sentiments expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. The Government can no longer afford the luxury of an underdeveloped and informal arrangement with the devolved Administrations. The proposed JMC needs to function properly and to meet regularly—ideally, frequently—to deal with the details of EU negotiations and future relationships with the EU.

If the Government want to maintain the union, which I believe they strongly do, they will need to treat the devolved Administrations with the respect that they deserve. Not least it is an issue of common sense. It is often not obvious to civil servants and Ministers here what impact their negotiations will have on the devolved Administrations. Very often it is simply a sin of omission: a failure to understand the full detail and significance of devolved powers and their impact on the countries concerned. That is understandable; after all, no one can be an expert in everything.

I have argued for years that the EU, as the origin of many rules and regulations and a source of funding, has taken the party-political edge off decisions it makes. As they are made on an EU-wide basis, they are not regarded as having party-political significance. Once that ends, I believe that the party politics will become quite vicious if we do not provide for proper channels of negotiation and discussion. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has laid out that issue very ably. She also talked about the impact on many aspects of life in Wales. She referred in some detail to universities. I declare an interest as chancellor of Cardiff University, but I am aware that it looks constantly and in detail at the impact of each negotiation on the life of that university, on research funding and on research partnerships with institutions in Europe.

There is also the impact on Wales of the proposed, and rather confused, arrangements for Northern Ireland. As that agreement works its way through—I point out to noble Lords that the Government seem to have no understanding of what it means—it is bound to have a strong impact on Wales. The Minister will know that I am not given to flights of nationalist fantasy, nor is there any sympathy on these Benches for independence, either in Scotland or in Wales. However, bearing in mind again the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, I urge the Government to be careful what they wish for. I am well aware that there are many, both at official and at ministerial level, who still regard devolution as a bit of nuisance, yet another hurdle to be overcome and an unnecessary level of complexity, but it is well established and in Scotland nationalist sympathies are very strong. They could grow stronger in Wales if this is not sorted neatly and effectively.

At the very least, officials and Ministers here often do not understand the full implications of the decisions they make. That is what is behind this attempt by the Government to write the devolved Administrations out of the picture. It is easier to ignore them than to pay them particular attention. I say to the Government that if they succeed in ignoring the devolved Administrations, they may well live to regret it.

Business of the House

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

That the Question be now put.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Finlay of Llandaff) (CB)]

I am instructed by order of the House to say that the Motion “That the Question be now put” is considered a most exceptional procedure and the House will not accept it save in circumstances where it is felt to be the only means of ensuring the proper conduct of the business of the House. Further, if a Member who seeks to move it persists in his intention, the practice of the House is that the Question on the Motion is put without debate. Does the noble Lord still wish to move the Motion?

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

Yes.

G7

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said, the Prime Minister has had good initial conversations with Chancellor Merkel, President Macron and others, he is seeing the Taoiseach next week, and he has been encouraged by the fact that there has been a willingness to talk about alternatives to the backstop. We are picking up the tempo of the discussions between our negotiators over the coming weeks so that we can drill down into the issue that has really prevented MPs supporting the withdrawal agreement. That is what we will be focusing on, because we are committed to trying to get a deal.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, following up the right reverend Prelate’s question about the education of girls, it is to be commended that 12 years of quality education was endorsed. Can the noble Baroness tell the House how much money has been committed by other nations and how much commitment there is to ensure that it is quality education that will actually meet the needs of these girls, including reproductive health teaching? Many of these countries have very high maternal mortality as well as child mortality rates, and they also have the problem of practices such as female genital mutilation, which has its high morbidity and mortality.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am very pleased that every delegation supported our campaign to give every girl in the world 12 years of quality education. Indeed, the Prime Minister also called on G7 countries to dedicate more of their aid budget to education, which currently stands at less than 2% of global humanitarian aid. It is obvious that, with more investment and support going in, all the very important issues that the noble Baroness raised can be properly addressed. I fear I will need to get more information on the details of the programmes we support and others: I will write to her, as I will on a couple of other issues.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, why speak in this debate at this hour? A decision has been taken and the other place has voted. As a revising Chamber, we are increasingly respected in the country as people become aware of the scrutiny of issues that occurs in this Chamber. Many of the complex issues that need to be focused on in negotiations must not be forgotten in a rush to sign us out of the European Union. Raising issues and tabling amendments to be debated is now probably the best way to lay the foundations to ensure that the deep concerns of many are addressed. It is the only way to bring together several of the different camps that exist in our country at present. Those writing to us have laid out the issues clearly, with detailed arguments.

Many noble Lords have spoken about economic issues, but a healthy, active nation is essential for a productive future. Health security requires ever closer, not more distant, collaboration with all those European agencies working in areas such as infection monitoring and control, antibiotic resistance, mapping environmental chemical toxins, hazardous waste, control of air pollution, climate change and food quality, all of which are underpinned by EU frameworks. Of course, there is also collaboration over terrorism and crime prevention. Safeguarding our health means working with the main relevant European agencies and with Europol.

I want to focus on the health and social care workforce, of whom 11%—around 160,000—are currently from the European Union. With many posts unfilled, we will not become self-sufficient, with suitably trained staff, for many years. Around 7% of doctors across the UK are European medical graduates. We are heavily reliant on them. At consultant level, our dependence is even greater. Overall, 14.6% of fully trained specialists, including a fifth of surgeons and almost a quarter of ophthalmologists, are European medical graduates. These are people with unique, highly specialised skills. If they are not there, people cannot be treated.

In general practice, the Government have promised 5,000 more GPs by 2021, but currently one in five GP trainee posts in England—that is 611—are currently unfilled. In the north-east, almost half of such posts are vacant. Recruiting GPs and introducing seven-day practice opening will not be possible without medical recruitment from overseas. The Secretary of State himself confirmed this in evidence to the Health Select Committee in January. This may seem a short-term problem, but it will take decades even for this workforce to be brought up to speed, if we try to be self-sufficient. We are dependent on our European colleagues. EU nationals working in health and social care must have residency rights in a way that continues to attract talent to the UK; we should not just say, “Well, if you are here, you now can stay”.

How can we turn these apparent difficulties into an arrangement of mutual benefit between ourselves and our EU partners? British doctors, scientists and other healthcare workers must be able to continue to go to the EU to train and to teach others. The benefits are two-way. For example, my own team helped set up palliative care training and advice services in many European countries. Advances in disease prevention and treatments need networks to facilitate high-quality research, clinical trials and patient access to innovative new technologies. Over the years we have been major beneficiaries of European research funding, particularly through framework funding grants. This is funding that we shall now have to find from elsewhere, while preserving the research collaborations, if we are not to fall behind. Such collaborations benefit both parties.

Our research strategy for the life sciences is part of our industrial strategy. Access to the world’s best talent must be centre stage. While we look to attract from across the globe, we must not lose those already living here. The question of reciprocity of residence is more than leave to remain; it should specify rights of domicile.

I recognise that the clock cannot be put back and that the Prime Minister has a very difficult job. There are no magic wands. I hope the Minister can reassure the country that the Government recognise the importance of ensuring our long-term health and personal security and that vibrant research is good for all. Those working in these core areas need to know that they are welcome to live here in the long term.

Air Pollution

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Tuesday 9th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, obviously when we are implementing change there are always times when there are issues. Certainly one of the important features is to keep traffic moving—slowly, but moving—because it is when you have stop-start that you have some of the most significant particle emission. In the previous Parliament an investment of £278 million was made available for cycling and walking initiatives. They are all about getting all of us to change some of our habits so that we improve the air quality in our cities and towns.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, have the Government costed the excess mortality and morbidity from atmospheric pollution in those areas that are exposed to high pollution? It is not only nitrous oxide but other diesel particulate matters that are causing a great deal of pulmonary damage—that is, lung damage.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that health is one of the key features of this. It is why Defra is working closely with the Department of Health and with Public Health England and its expert committee. I do not have before me the figures on the costs in terms of health and I will look at that, but it is one of the reasons why this Government and the previous one have committed to spend £2 billion on measures precisely to deal with the two problems with pollutants.