Manchester Terrorism Attack

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Wednesday 15th October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, it has been almost two weeks since Manchester was left reeling from yet another terrorist attack. The events of 2 October not only ended the lives of Adrian Daulby and Melvin Cravitz but left our entire Jewish community worrying about their safety. We are in an appalling situation now where we have to have armed police and security patrols outside synagogues and Jewish schools simply to ensure that British Jews can go about their daily lives safely. In the immediate aftermath of such an attack, such measures are, of course, necessary, but our places of worship and our community centres should be places of safety. No British citizen should have to live in perpetual fear simply because they are Jewish.

I have an observation to make. Whenever we speak in this House and elsewhere of terrorist attacks, atrocities and acts of extreme violence, we often offer our thoughts and prayers to the victims and their families. It has also become commonplace to repeat the refrain, “Never again”. We have said these words too many times; we hear them too often. We must move on from simply offering hollow words of condolence. Thoughts and prayers do not revive a grieving wife’s husband, do not prevent future attacks and do not save lives. These attacks happen again and again.

Beyond expressing our condolences, it is our duty as legislators to work together to tackle the evil that lay behind this attack. We must be clear that this terror attack and the rise of Islamic extremism and increasing antisemitism are inexplicably linked. This year has seen the second-highest number of antisemitic incidents ever recorded in this country. Hate-filled marches, ostensibly in the name of the pro-Palestine movement but frequently entering the territory of being anti-Jew, have filled our streets. For as long as we fail to tackle the growth of radical and violent Islamic extremism, both at home and abroad, attacks such as these are likely to continue. We must not shy away from calling this what it is—an extremist ideology linked to Islam—and we must ensure that we are always able to call out such an ideology.

Unfortunately, the Government’s working group on Islamophobia could serve to actively stifle free debate on the nature and prevalence of Islamic fundamentalism. This has been criticised by the National Secular Society, the Free Speech Union and the Network of Sikh Organisations, which is planning to bring a judicial review against the Government if the new definition goes ahead. So will the Minister implore his ministerial colleagues to drop these plans and ensure that free and open discussion about the dangers we face as a society from Islamic extremism is never curtailed?

I appreciate that this is a live legal investigation, and as such there is a limit on what the Minister can tell us. However, several questions arise from the particulars of these events. First, the attacker in question, Jihad al-Shamie, was a Syrian-born male who arrived in the United Kingdom as a child. He begged a woman to become his second wife, claiming that in Islam it is permissible for a man to have up to four wives, and then abused her mentally and sexually. At the time he carried out his attack, he was on bail for a rape he allegedly committed earlier this year. When he committed the Manchester attack, he called 999 and pledged allegiance to Islamic State. Despite all this, he was apparently not known to counterterror police. Does the Minister agree that more needs to be done to plug the gaps in the Government’s terrorism prevention programme? If so, are the Government looking into how they might do so?

Secondly, the Home Secretary, in her Statement, said she was looking to bring forward legislative changes to the Public Order Act 1986 to allow police forces to consider the cumulative impact of protest marches when deciding to impose those conditions. Indeed, we have seen the Government claim that they did not have sufficient powers to prevent the hate-filled marches across the country on the day after the 2 October attack in Manchester. However, Section 12 of the Public Order Act already permits senior police officers to place conditions on a public procession if it is held to cause intimidation to others. Is it the Government’s view that this existing test would not have been enough to place restrictions on those marches? Does the Minister think that the proposed new cumulative impact test will be sufficient? I look forward to his response.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, the appalling attack on the Manchester synagogue is a stark warning of the persistent threat of antisemitic hate and the urgent need to unify against those who seek to divide us. Attacks based on race or religion are totally unacceptable and this attack is a chilling testament to the rising tide of division in our society, which has left many in the Jewish community frightened even to go to their synagogue. Antisemitic hate, or hate in any form, has no place in Britain. We must never allow the heat of public debate to legitimise, excuse, encourage or embolden such cowardly acts of terrorism. Anyone who incites hatred, or spreads it, against any faith or background must be held accountable under the law.

This crime was not a political statement but an act of pure violence designed to spread fear and drive communities apart. Nevertheless, all of us, across all political parties, share a responsibility to seek consensus and reduce division when addressing issues that provoke strong passions. As a society, we are becoming more polarised with public debate, whether about events in the Middle East, immigration or indeed any other difficult subject, too frequently descending into hostility and suspicion. We all must reject the language and the policies of division and commit to trying to rebuild a sense of common purpose.

As we mourn the victims of this atrocity, we must also guard against overreaction. The temptation can be to reach for more powers and more controls, even at the expense of our fundamental freedoms. The Prime Minister’s pledge to review public order powers in the wake of Manchester is understandable, but I urge the Government to approach with caution, because incremental curbs on protest will not stop antisemitic hate, but a “drip, drip” approach to legislation risks us becoming a society where people of all backgrounds and beliefs no longer feel safe or free to express their views. That would, in my view, hand victory to those who want to divide us, because the restriction of protest rights will not defeat antisemitism but risks damaging our democracy.

The best way to respond to hate is to defend everyone’s right to live, worship and speak freely, within the law, while refusing to compromise our commitment to an open and plural democracy. We must learn from this tragedy, so I ask the Minister what action are the Government taking to work more closely with grass-roots faith leaders, not only through funding and policing but through genuine, community-led, early warning and education work with Jewish and interfaith groups to strengthen local resilience, encourage reporting and tackle radicalisation at its roots?

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the approach taken by His Majesty’s loyal Opposition and by colleagues from the Liberal Democrat Benches and for their condemnation of what is an evil act of antisemitic terrorism that targeted innocent worshippers on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar. It was carried out by a terrorist pledging his allegiance to the warped ideology of Islamism. Like both noble Lords who have spoken, I pay tribute to the two men who were killed that day: Melvin Cravitz and Adrian Daulby. Their bravery saved lives, their actions were commendable and the whole House should express our deepest sympathies, as my right honourable friend the Home Secretary did in her Statement, to their families and friends.

It is important that we recognise today the worshippers, staff and volunteers, but also the emergency services, which responded in a superlative way and in a very quick fashion. The police officers took difficult decisions in dangerous circumstances and arrived at the scene of this terrible terrorist incident with speed.

An attack on our Jewish community is an attack on the entire nation and, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, said, there is no ambiguity around who was responsible for this attack. The attack carried out by Jihad al-Shamie, a 35 year-old British citizen of Syrian descent, was instigated by the influence of extreme Islamist ideology, as evidenced by the 999 call that he made during the incident and his pledging of allegiance to the Islamic State.

Our immediate response to this issue has been several- fold. The noble Lord mentioned sympathy. That is important but it is not enough, as was mentioned. Our immediate priority has been to enhance security, particularly within synagogue locations. Additional support has been made available to more than 500 locations and, as all noble Lords in the House will know, there is a long-standing commitment to fund the Community Security Trust to the tune of £18 million per year.

It is no coincidence—I put this again in relation to the question of Islamophobia—that this month has also seen a suspected arson attack on a mosque in Peacehaven in East Sussex. From my perspective I want to be clear, as my right honourable friend the Home Secretary was in the Statement, that violence directed at any community, be they Jewish or Muslim, of all faiths or none, is an attack on the fabric of this country and should be condemned.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, asked about the proposals that my right honourable friend has announced in relation to Sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act 1986. The noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, also questioned whether that impacts upon freedom. That is a legitimate point to put and I accept that she has put it in good faith. The right to protest is a fundamental right in our society and it must be protected. But of the freedoms that we enjoy, none is more important than the right to live in peace and in safety. The Government have examined clearly the powers under Sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act and have come to the conclusion that while the right to protest is a fundamental freedom, it must be balanced against the right of the public to have their safety and security.

In the conversations that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has had with community leaders of all faiths, and with community leaders of no faith, she has concluded, with support from the police, that it is clear that a balance has not been struck. For that reason, my right honourable friend has confirmed that she is now examining amending Sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act 1986. Now, what does that mean? It means that the police will be able to take into account the cumulative impact of frequent protests. The police already have powers under Sections 12 and 14 of that Act to agree routes, times and a whole range of other conditions.

One of the things that we are examining, and we will bring forward proposals in due course, is ensuring that if a number of protests commence and continue on conditions set by the police, but ultimately result in intimidation or fear in a particular community, the police will have powers under those proposals to look at whether they—not the Government but the police—wish to put additional conditions to secure the support of the community. Those are important and, with the Home Secretary amending the Public Order Act, we will bring forward proposals shortly to examine those particular issues.

It is important to tell the House that, in the days since the attack, we have stepped up our efforts to tackle antisemitism wherever it is found, challenging misinformation and hatred in schools and looking at what is happening in universities, particularly to protect students of the Jewish faith and to ensure that patients and staff in the National Health Service are supported.

Terrorism seeks to do one thing and that is to divide us. I do not intend, nor does my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, to allow terrorism to divide us. We have a strong level of support for the Jewish community as a whole. We want to ensure that people can live their faith, whatever that faith, in peace and security. It is simply not acceptable to have incidents of this nature.

We need to look again—this is one of the key points that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, made in his questions—at the individual who committed this terrorist act, murdering and attempting to murder individuals in the synagogue. That individual has no record of contact with authorities. For whatever reason, he has self-radicalised. There will be an investigation. I cannot go into further details, but police are continuing to investigate his background and further arrests have been made. Self-evidently, the security services need to look at where there are organised cells undertaking activity. We also need to look at the reasons for self-radicalisation and what it leads to, how it is formed and the processes that lead to it. It remains very difficult for an individual to be identified if they have had no contact on terrorist-related activity. This individual had contact with the police prior to the incident but not on a terrorist-related incident. The independent office of police complaints will investigate the police performance in the contact prior to the incident and will obviously investigate the circumstances of the fatality at the incident. It will produce a report, which I hope will colour our examination of some of those issues at a later date.

I hope that the Government as a whole will look at the issues that both noble Lords mentioned in their contributions. It is important that we maintain a balance. We must look at wherever citizens are threatened and give them support but I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, that the measures we are taking in the proposals outlined by my right honourable friend still protect the right to protest and freedom of speech but give additional support to those communities of whichever faith, or none, that find themselves under persistent pressure from a particular protest group causing fear in their home community area and religious establishment.

The measures that we have discussed today will be brought forward in short order, and the report on lessons learned will allow the Government to reflect on these matters. I simply say at the end of my contribution that the Government have to be eternally vigilant on these matters. There are continually people who wish to do harm to sections of the community, for political and ideological reasons. We have a strong security presence and security service to identify that where possible. But we need to look—this goes to the points that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, made—at what leads to radicalisation in individuals and at better measures to pick that up at an early stage, so that the interventions that we have in place as a Government are applied to individuals who, for whatever reason, find themselves warping their minds. In this case, eventually that hatred led to acts of terrorism that meant people going about their ordinary, day-to-day lives, on the holiest day of the year, faced murder, disruption and fear, and ongoing concern about radicalisation. I hope the House will bear with me on these matters. We will examine the lessons and bring forward proposals in due course.

Gaza Protests: Anti-terrorism Legislation

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Wednesday 10th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for the noble Earl’s support. We will do that and have done that, but there are several cases pending on which we are not able to comment. Therefore, I hope the public will accept and understand the reasons why that assessment has been made, but he is absolutely right in his comments .

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

I absolutely condemn any demonstrators who attack the police; they should face the full force of the law. However, I have no doubt that the current approach is unsustainable. It blurs the line between violent or subversive action and legitimate, peaceful protest. The front-line police officers are strictly following the letter of the law in the name of national security, but does the Minister honestly believe that mass arrests of clearly well-intentioned members of the public are proportionate, necessary and wise, or that they serve the public interest?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Again, I am in danger of repeating myself to the House, but I have to, because the situation is quite clear: there is a line in the sand drawn by legislation passed by this House in 2000 on what a proscription order test is. We have had advice on that proscription order test and have passed legislation in both Houses which proscribes the particular organisation. Proscribing it then bans certain activity, of which protest in support of that organisation is one, not protest against the proscription in the first place. If that line is crossed, it is then for the police to exercise their discretion, for the CPS to determine whether charges should be brought and for a court to determine the activity.

None of that at all stops anybody from walking into Parliament Square today, standing up and condemning the State of Israel, protesting in favour of Gaza and for a Palestinian state, or condemning this—or any other—Government about our actions in favour of or against Palestine and a Palestinian state.

However, the line has to be drawn, and it has been. I hope those individuals who support Palestine will say so in a way that meets the legal obligations of free protest, but does not support organisations which, as the noble Earl said, cause criminal damage, have destroyed businesses, have carried out three major attacks, have thrown fireworks and pyrotechnics, have assaulted people in those buildings and have several court cases ahead. When they come out, if convictions are pursued, they will again show that there is further evidence in support of the actions that the Government have taken.

Palestine Action Protests: Arrests

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The purpose of Parliament, both the House of Commons and this House, is to pass legislation. We have done that with overwhelming majorities in both Houses of Parliament in favour of the proscription order—and the proscription order is clear. However, I am also clear that we must not conflate terrorist activity with legitimate pro-Palestinian support. People are free to support Palestinian rights and sovereignty, and there are means to do it without being a member of or a supporter of Palestine Action. I cannot be clearer from this Dispatch Box.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, by handing overstretched and under-pressure police officers more power to decide whether a protest is in fact an arrestable offence in the heat of the moment, we risk creating an environment where almost every protest could be regarded as criminalised. Does the Minister accept that the recent ban, which has already led to many arrests of peaceful and even silent demonstrators, demonstrates how powers that are vague and too broad can be misapplied to unfairly target non-violent dissent?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I do not think I can be any clearer to the House. The proscription order was passed by an overwhelming majority in the House of Commons and in this House, and it is very clear. The police have a duty to enforce that proscription order. For the police, what that means is that they will potentially make arrests. It is then for the Crown Prosecution Service to consider whether charges are made, and it is then for decisions to be taken as to what happens to those charges. I am not responsible for police interaction on that matter because the police ultimately have to be independent of Ministers and government in making those decisions.

Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2025

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Thursday 3rd July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Noble Lords]

Front Bench!

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

Forgive me, my Lords; I think I was nodding off.

No matter how passionately any of us may feel about the unfolding tragedy in the Middle East, we all remain bound by the law. Activists cannot expect to waltz into a high security Ministry of Defence base and escape without consequences. The Liberal Democrats regard last month’s intrusion at RAF Brize Norton as totally unacceptable. The perpetrators should be prosecuted, taken through the courts and, if proven guilty, punished accordingly.

I grew up in Ireland, where terrorism was a very real and constant presence. Our newspapers were filled every day with what terrorists had done in the north—I lived in the south. It was just appalling: kneecapping, murder and bombing. That, to me, is the definition of “terrorism”. I believe that there is a big difference between that and criminal activity. I find anyone who commits violence to be absolutely abhorrent, but I see committing criminal acts and terrorist acts as very different things, and I do not believe that this particular act could be described as a terrorist act.

We are being invited not to prosecute criminal activity but to criminalise membership of an organisation. It is regrettable that Ministers put the three SIs together, because two of them are clearly well-proven, whereas the other one is, in my opinion, open to doubt. I want to be clear that we are definitely in favour of two of them, and we have no problem with that whatever. But it is not possible to say that, if a vote comes, we will vote for two of them and not for the other one.

When Parliament granted the Home Secretary the extraordinary power to ban organisations, it did so on the condition that such action be reserved for the most extreme circumstances when proportionality could be plainly demonstrated. It is our responsibility to question whether the use of these powers is fair, just and proportionate. That question of proportionality should be at the forefront of our minds today. I do not believe that the test of proportionality has been met. If this proscription proceeds, it will be the first time that a direct action group is outlawed primarily for damaging property. Although the Terrorism Act 2000 makes it clear that serious damage to property can meet the legal threshold for terrorism, questions about proportionality remain unanswered.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

Which of the three tests that the noble Lord outlined for something to qualify as an act of terrorism has not been met by this organisation in the example that I gave?

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

It is proportionality that I am concerned about. Proscription, as the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, rightly pointed out, would mean that merely expressing approval for Palestine Action, even via an ill-judged retweet, could carry a 14-year prison sentence. I was not particularly convinced by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, although he is a very long-standing friend, because if the CPS will not prosecute because it is clearly not the right thing to do, why is it there?

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

I am sorry but I cannot let that pass. Every day the police prosecute people for theft. The maximum sentence for theft was seven years—I am not sure whether it still is. Practically nobody gets seven years; most people get a non-custodial sentence. The assumption that everybody prosecuted will be locked up for years and years is a misleading premise for this debate.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

I am not trying to mislead anyone; the noble Lord knows better than that. If it can happen, I do not think it is right. It is as simple as that.

That brings me to the security breach. Barely three weeks after the Strategic Defence Review urged stronger protection for RAF logistics bases, an activist group breached the security at Brize Norton. Can the Minister say in winding up what consequences there have been for those in charge of security at the base? Was site security managed by the RAF or contracted out? Can he give the House a categorical assurance that whatever mistakes enabled this breach will not be repeated?

There is also the question of workability. Hundreds of thousands of our fellow citizens have marched peacefully for a ceasefire and an arms export ban on Israel, a position that opinion polls say now commands majority support. Since this position is shared by Palestine Action, a member of the public promoting these views could be interpreted under this law as supporting the group. I would welcome clarity from the Minister on this, as it has understandably left many concerned and a bit confused.

We should be concerned that, while we debate the order, innocent Palestinians continue to die in their hundreds. The Government’s principal diplomatic energy should be directed at securing a durable peace: a plan for Gaza which excludes Hamas, pressure on Prime Minister Netanyahu to halt the de facto annexation of the West Bank and, without further delay, formal recognition of a Palestinian state by the United Kingdom. That is the Liberal Democrat position. For the sake of our security, credibility and liberties, I ask the Minister to focus on pursuing these aims instead.

Police: Facial Recognition Technology

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

There has been some discussion of the algorithms and their use. There were discussions with South Wales Police in particular, who were dealing with that issue. Those discussions resulted in the National Physical Laboratory testing the algorithm used by South Wales Police, and it found no statistically significant difference in performance on either gender or race. However, it is for those very reasons that the Home Secretary wants to examine the legal framework and, for the reasons that my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti mentioned, to make sure that there is clarity and oversight, and that the plethora of organisations I mentioned at the start of this Question examine this in a way that makes for effective oversight and clarity for police forces.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, our concerns should extend beyond just facial recognition technology to the wide range of technologies coming down the track, some of which are very intrusive. Many are already being used by police forces in other countries. Will the Government consider appointing an independent regulator to establish clear guardrails around this new technology, so that any of the AI technology that the police want to use will be proportionate and necessary?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I understand the noble Baroness’s concerns, and I understand that people want to ensure that there is a legal framework for interpreting not just facial recognition but other such things. As I have mentioned, a plethora of organisations are looking at different aspects of regulation. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary is trying to look at that and to give clearer guidance on the use of what I still maintain is an effective tool. If this helps stop crime and identifies potential individuals through intelligence-led policing, then it is a good thing.

Police Service

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Wednesday 11th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord tempts me to examine issues that are potentially being addressed as part of our discussions on the police reform White Paper, which will be produced shortly. The White Paper is looking at governance and efficiency and how best we can promote resources, so that the ambition of the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, can be met during this Parliament. I cannot comment on those issues directly, but the noble Lord needs to reflect on the fact that in the police reform White Paper we will discuss a range of measures, of which governance and responsibilities will be one.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

The record number of recruits who joined the police under the Uplift programme, together with huge number of resignations, is putting real strain on experienced police, who are having to manage not just their own workload but the recruits. In the meantime, HMIC has reported that child sexual abuse cases are being dealt with by inexperienced officers, which is causing real problems and definitely contributing to 40% of cases not being managed properly and 40% of crimes still being unsolved. What are the Government going to do to persuade those really experienced officers to stay in the police force while it manages dealing with public safety under a less experienced police force?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is really important that we try to retain police officers in post. Of the people who left in the past 12 months, approximately one-third were those who had reached retirement age and were going anyway. The largest group—48% of those who left the force—were people who had been there under two years. So, contrary to public perception, we are finding that people are retiring—people do retire—but the difficulty is retaining those recruited into the police force.

The noble Baroness makes an extremely important point about needing to ensure that we use that experience seriously to bear down on crime. What I want is to retain individuals who are recruited—it is a costly exercise, recruiting people who then leave after two years—but we also want to manage expectations. Again, trailing the police reform White Paper, those issues are part of the Government’s potential future plans once the White Paper is produced.

Public Order Act 1986: Section 5

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Tuesday 10th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The act of standing and making a protest is a fair and open act. It will not be covered by Section 5 of the Public Order Act. If the noble Lord is referring, as he may be—and if he is not, I apologise—to the question of abortion clinics and abortion legislation, the Government have passed legislation on this matter. Silent protest is allowed, but not within a limit set by law. That is fair and appropriate for people who wish to protest, as well as for people who wish to access a service that this House and the House of Commons have passed as being legal.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

Given reports that recent protests have been largely peaceful, how will the Government ensure that the new powers to restrict protests near places of worship are not used to criminalise lawful dissent or acts deemed to be merely offensive? What guidance will be provided to police so they avoid subjective or arbitrary enforcement and to ensure that these powers are applied proportionately and transparently, to maintain public trust?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Baroness again raises measures that will come before this House in very short order in the Crime and Policing Bill. We are planning to introduce a new measure that gives protection to synagogues, mosques, churches and other places of worship from—and this is the key point—

“intimidating levels of disruption caused by protest activity”.

That is across the board, whatever the religion, whatever the faith. If somebody is undertaking intimidating levels of disruption, and that protest is an intimidatory, harassing protest, action will be taken. This House will have an opportunity to debate where that line is drawn when the Bill comes before the House. It is certainly a measure that I hope Members of the House recognise as being important; it is important that we protect religious organisations from disruption and harassment while, at the same time, ensuring that everybody has the right to protest.

Electric Cycles: Illegal Use on Roads

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Tuesday 10th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Viscount is absolutely right: delivery drivers are a potential area of hazard. This legislation will apply to them, but it is also incumbent on those companies that employ delivery drivers to take action in the event of individuals being found to have breached the legislation, who have perhaps secured points on their licence and will, in future, perhaps be subject to this legislation.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, given the challenges with identifying illegally modified e-bikes, and given the success of the mobile rolling road test benches used in the Netherlands that enable police quickly and accurately to determine whether e-bikes exceed legal power or speeds, will the Government consider looking at what is being done in the Netherlands and deciding whether that might be appropriate to use here? I think the Government will find that the success in the Netherlands is something that we really ought to replicate here.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I will certainly look at the position in the Netherlands and see what we can take from that. The measures that I mentioned will be before this House in very short order, when there will be an opportunity to examine and further debate them. It is also important to say that the police take very seriously the question of offenders on e-cycles that are modified and looked on as motorcycles. When appropriate, if they wish to, the police may even pursue an illegally modified e-cycle and employ tactical options to bring the vehicle to a stop. This is unacceptable anti-social behaviour, and the Government are taking it seriously and have put new legislation forward. For the very reasons mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, we want to ensure that the police up their performance in tackling this by making arrests and seizing bikes where they cross the threshold of illegality.

Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) (Amendment, Surrender and Compensation) (England and Wales) Order 2025

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Thursday 5th June 2025 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

My Lords, the order before us seeks to add ninja swords to the list of prohibited offensive weapons by amending the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988 to include them. I will briefly set out the context for why the Government have brought the order forward. The Government have already taken robust action to introduce a ban on zombie-style knives and zombie-style machetes, which came into force last September. We are also strengthening enforcement and prevention as part of the Government’s safer streets mission, and there will be further new measures before the House of Lords very shortly in the Crime and Policing Bill, which is currently going through the House of Commons.

This legislation to ban ninja swords was a government manifesto commitment last July and responds to tireless campaigning by the family of Ronan Kanda, who was just 16 when he was fatally stabbed by a ninja sword in 2022. We are taking this action in honour of Ronan’s memory, but also in recognition of the remarkable courage and determination shown by his loved ones, led by his mother, Pooja Kanda, alongside her daughter, Nikita Kanda, and other family members. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to their family. I cannot imagine what it is like to suffer such a terrible loss, yet, having suffered that loss, they have gone on to campaign for changes that will make our society safer. For that, they have my admiration and respect and, I hope, that of the whole Committee.

Although there have been relatively few fatal attacks involving ninja swords compared with other bladed weapons, there is no doubt that such swords can be lethal. Under Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, it is an offence to possess, import, manufacture, sell, hire, offer for sale or hire, expose, or possess for the purposes of sale or hire, a weapon specified in an order made under that section. Using the order-making powers in Section 141(2) of that Act, the Government now add ninja swords, through this order, to the list of prohibited offensive weapons to which Section 141 applies.

These weapons—ninja swords—are defined as a sword with a blade between 14 inches and 24 inches in length, with one straight cutting edge and a tanto-style point. The length the Government have chosen is in order to exclude knives and tools used for legitimate purposes, such as many kitchen knives and other types of knife. To be within the scope of the ban, the article will also have the features specified in paragraph 1A, namely that the sword will have a primary cutting edge, a secondary cutting edge and a blunt spine with either a tanto-style point or a reverse tanto-style point. These terms are further defined in detail in the legislation.

Although it is right that we take the strongest possible action to prevent violence and stop dangerous weapons getting into the wrong hands, we are not seeking to criminalise law-abiding citizens. We are confident that the definition of ninja swords does not include tools traditionally used in agriculture or other farming, gardening or outdoor activities. We have included in the legislation defences to cover a range of circumstances, including where the article in question is one of historical importance; is owned for a permitted activity, such as sports or legitimate martial arts practice; or is made by hand. Antiques are already exempted from the scope of Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, so the order before the Committee is very specific and tightly defined.

I have a couple of further points to make. Parts 3 and 4 of the order provide for a surrender and compensation scheme, through which owners of the weapons in scope of the order will be able to surrender them. The order has a territorial scope of England and Wales only, but I very much hope that the local devolved Governments in Northern Ireland and Scotland will take similar action to ensure that ninja swords are prohibited across the United Kingdom. To that effect, Home Office officials are in discussion with the Governments in Northern Ireland and Scotland, but, obviously, that is a matter for them.

To conclude, the risk of these dangerous swords being used for crime and violence is not one that we are prepared to tolerate. The manifesto commitment, endorsed last year in the July general election, commits the Government to halving knife crime in a decade as part of our wider safer streets mission. Banning ninja swords is an important step towards this and towards removing weapons from circulation. I commend the order to the Committee.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, we believe that this ban is proportionate and we support it. Sword-related deaths are rare but even one, such as the tragic loss of Ronan Kanda, is too many. I join the Minister in his admiration for the family and how they have behaved. However, for this ban to be truly effective, it must be robust and well implemented. I have a number of concerns; I would be grateful if the Minister could address them when he winds up.

First, if the people we most need to reach are not even aware of this ban or the surrender scheme, they are unlikely to have the desired impact. The Youth Endowment Fund says that this was a key failing of the previous scheme to ban zombie knives. Even some individuals working in this field were apparently unaware of the process. Clear and targeted communication is essential. Can the Minister outline how the Government will ensure that those who are the hardest to reach, who may not be easily identified or contacted, are made aware of these changes?

Secondly, I have a real concern that people surrendering zombie knives were asked to provide their personal details. Youth workers believe that this prevented many people coming forward, in particular those possessing weapons illegally, who already distrust the police completely. Will people be asked to provide their personal details this time?

Can the Minister clarify why the ban is limited to blades of up to 24 inches? Although most ninja swords are between 14 and 24 inches, knife enthusiasts are already bragging online that blades longer than 24 inches will remain legal. Was this intended to protect legitimate uses? From what the Minister said in his introduction, I assume that it was. If so, does the legitimate use exemption not already provide adequate protection? Is the Minister confident that criminals will not simply switch to longer blades to evade the law, which they seem to suggest online they would or should do?

I also want to ask about the exemption for fantasy swords. After the zombie knife ban, the BBC found that retailers were still selling them by claiming that they were for cosplay and could not cause harm unless modified. Is the Minister confident that this exemption will not create a similar loophole?

Furthermore, the legislation is narrowly drawn. The Home Office itself acknowledges that it may simply shift demand to other types of swords. It is unclear whether most swords used in recent homicides would even be covered by these new rules. What mechanism will be in place to review the effectiveness of this ban after it comes into force?

Finally, this law will make a difference only if it is enforced. The Clayman review suggests that the police currently lack the training, expertise and resources to police this effectively. Can the Minister provide information on how enforcement will be strengthened and what steps are being taken to improve police capability?

I would be grateful if the Minister would address these issues when he winds up.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I join the Minister’s expressions of gratefulness towards the family of Ronan Kanda for the way that they have taken forward this campaign. I also thank the Minister and his Home Office team for the really careful way that the order has been drafted. They have considered thoroughly the representations made by members of the antique trade, collectors, historical re-enactment groups and martial art practitioners, when the easiest thing would have been to have a blanket ban on every straight-bladed sword. This would have criminalised people involved in land management, antique collecting, living history and sporting activities. I am therefore very grateful for the care and trouble that the Home Office team have taken.

I am confident that this definition is precise and specific to just these swords, but it is complex in nature and needs to be accompanied by illustrated guidance notes, as was done with zombie knives. A great deal of very well-informed amateur effort is available to help the Home Office compile these notes. Perhaps, given the enthusiasm in some bits of this Government for AI and the progress that they are making, we could equip each constable with an app on their phone that, based on the detailed knowledge that can be provided, the illustrations and other details, would enable instant identification—at least in principle—for police officers, who would not have to receive deep, separate training. Maybe there is something that we can do here to improve enforcement. There is so much complexity in this area that the idea that we are going to train constables in how to recognise whether a knife is within or without this legislation is not practical, but there are ways in which it can be done.

I am delighted that the Government have recognised the importance of historical items by including defences that are identically worded to those in previous legislation. The role of amateur collectors and people who are interested in preserving our history is really important at a time when museums are strapped for cash and resources. That being recognised and supported is enormously appreciated.

I hope that we will—well, I am sure that we will—have an opportunity when the Crime and Policing Bill comes through the House to consider extending this defence consistently across the entire area of historical weapons. There is a set of inconsistencies at the moment, particularly around World War II items, such as the sort of stuff that the SOE used—I declare an interest as someone who is descended from the political head of the SOE. It is really important that this aspect of our history is preserved. There will be an opportunity with that Bill—not, as I say, to extend the idea of the legislation but to extend its ambit—to make sure that what has been done in this order can be extended to weapons of historical significance generally.

Pensioners: Shoplifting

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Thursday 15th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I should declare an interest in that I am a member of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, and have been since 1979. I am fully in contact with the members of that union, who do a great job in supporting shop staff and shop presence. What staff should not face is attacks from individuals when they uphold the law on cigarette sales, alcohol sales or other sales. In fact, I moved an amendment some years ago to ensure that protection was in place. It was defeated by the then Conservative Government. I am very proud to say that I shall be moving the same Motion in the Crime and Policing Bill and that it will be passed by my colleagues.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, retailers often choose not to involve police when pensioners are caught shoplifting. Will the Minister discuss this issue with the College of Policing to ensure there is a consistent and fair approach to all offenders; balancing compassion for those who are in genuine hardship with the need for deterrence and public confidence in the justice system?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Under the last Government, the National Police Chiefs’ Council produced a retail crime action plan, which is now around two years old. It includes a range of measures on how we can reduce shop theft across the board, but also looking at specific sectors. We have backed that up with a £7 million fund this year to support action on shop theft in town centres in particular.

I accept that there are a range of reasons why individuals undertake shop theft. Some are in criminal gangs, some are fuelling addiction problems, and some, as my noble friend mentioned, do so for reasons to do with poverty. We need to address all those issues but, ultimately, we should have no tolerance of shop theft as a whole, because it costs society, costs us as individuals, and is a crime that is seen as being victimless when it certainly is not. By all means, let us look at the individual circumstances, but our advice to police forces is to focus on this as a serious issue, for growth in the economy and for the impact on our society as a whole.