Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Cumberlege and Lord Kamall

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Thursday 3rd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for those interventions. If they will allow me, I will come to answer them in my remarks.

We understand the concerns about how these powers will be used. It is in the interests of nobody, least of all the Secretary of State, to be making every decision in the system, and stakeholders will be encouraged to continue to resolve matters locally where possible. Duties for those responsible for reconfigurations to involve patients and consult the local authority will continue. Nevertheless, the Secretary of State is ultimately accountable for all changes to the health service. Therefore, it is entirely consistent with democratic principles that he or she should have the ability to intervene where it is deemed to be in the interests of the public.

We recognise that, in exercising these powers in this clause and schedule, it will be vital that the Secretary of State receives expert and clinical advice. That is why the Independent Reconfiguration Panel will continue to provide independent advice to the Secretary of State, allowing them to benefit from its many years of experience. This will mean that the Secretary of State will have independent advice that will include the views of both overview and scrutiny committees and patients, and the clinical case for change—

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

I thank my noble friend. On this clinical advice, he is aware of the enormous changes that were made to stroke services in London. In the reconfiguration that took place, many lives were saved. But when it came to east Kent, the reconfiguration request, which was to do with stroke services, sat on the Secretary of State’s desk for two years. I just wonder how many people died for that delay.

When I put forward an amendment in Committee, I said that a decision must be made within three months by the Secretary of State if it is before his view, on his desk. Delay costs lives. It is absolutely critical that decisions are made fast in these reconfigurations, because we will lose lives.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Indeed, sometimes it is absolutely critical that decisions are made quickly. Where there are concerns about the speed of those decisions, the Secretary of State may ultimately decide to intervene, subject to advice from the Independent Reconfiguration Panel, overview and scrutiny committees, and patients, and based on the clinical case, should he or she decide to exercise powers under this clause.

I understand the concerns raised in this House and have heard the arguments presented today and in Committee. However, I think it would help if I reminded noble Lords that the Secretary of State’s powers included in the Bill are to ensure accountability. The public rightly want to hold the Government to account for the health service, and these powers allow that to happen effectively. The other place acknowledged that approach and supported it—

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Cumberlege and Lord Kamall

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I have two points to make to the noble Lord. First, I have been advised that this is standard wording. Secondly, I have made the assurance at the Dispatch Box. It is here; it is on public record that the Government intend to bring forward regulations. On the timeframe, I will either write to noble Lords or arrange a follow-up meeting. I will make sure that there is some communication to bridge that gap.

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

My Lords, I thank everybody who has taken part in this debate, particularly my noble friend the Minister for the work he and his officials have done to bring this into the Government’s remit. That is so important, because I learned through the passage of the Medicines and Medical Devices Act that we could incorporate the patient safety commissioner and some of the other things we wanted to achieve only through government amendments. My heart leaped when I saw these amendments and I thank the Minister.

I still think these amendments could be improved and it is important that we get the word “shall” in, or “might” or whatever others have said, rather than “may”. I was looking at the Oxford English Dictionary. My father-in-law was the publisher to the Oxford University Press, so the dictionary is very close to my heart. The dictionary says that the verb “shall” relates to the right or sensible thing to do, whereas the verb “may” is defined as a possibility.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Cumberlege and Lord Kamall

Lords Hansard - Part 3 & Committee stage
Wednesday 26th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

My Lords, before the Minister goes on—just so I do not lose the thread here— could he tell us why the Independent Reconfiguration Panel has to go? What are the problems with it? Why do we have to move it off in order to bring in a politicised system with the Secretary of State making the decisions?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I must clarify here. I have said that we expect the Independent Reconfiguration Panel to continue to consider views. We are not getting rid of it.

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

So that presents a problem. What does the Secretary of State do, and what does the independent panel do? Is it a question of the scale of the change that is being proposed? Where are the boundaries?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The Secretary of State will be advised by the Independent Reconfiguration Panel, especially where there is a difficult decision that takes time, just as in the case of the Medway.

On Amendment 182, the Secretary of State’s decision-making process must already take into account the public law decision-making principles, all relevant information and his legal duties, including the public sector equality duty. The Secretary of State is also under several duties in the National Health Service Act 2006, including to promote a comprehensive health service and to support continuous improvement in services.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Cumberlege and Lord Kamall

Committee stage
Thursday 20th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Anyone else want to come in? Look, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions and friendly advice, however put. Actually, I appreciate their passive-aggressive demeanour, in that way. I know it is all well-intentioned and that noble Lords speak from experience of previously tried schemes. The main point here is how we make sure that primary care is better represented and not dominated by acute trusts. I do not think I am going to have the answers to convince noble Lords completely or even partly tonight. Therefore, this clearly needs more discussion and for me to go back to my department, but also, once again, us to have another discussion on these issues between now and Report.

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

My Lords, can I quickly intervene? Of course, it is absolutely right that one should learn from history. But looking to the future, I just wonder whether the Minister has heard about the movement there is by some foundation trusts to try to take over primary care. I just wonder what the implications of that would be for primary care, whether he and his officials have heard of that and whether they would like to discover what that would do to patient care.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank my noble friend; I was not aware of that. But at the end of the day, the result has to be the care that the patient receives. There will always be debates on how you can configure who should be involved at what level, but at the end of the day, it has to be the quality of the care the patient receives. To a wider point, we must also focus on prevention. We are seeing a lot of innovation in the primary sector; we are seeing GP services sometimes merge into primary care centres, taking on medical procedures that were previously considered the domain of hospitals. We have seen more blurring of the lines, and patients welcome that innovation in many cases.

What matters at the end of the day is the experience of the patient and making sure they have a decent service all the way through their life. It is one of the reasons we are talking about integration. In this country, care is literally from the cradle all the way to the grave, as we integrate social care more. That is why some of these discussions we have been having on social care and palliative care have been important. We are aware of that.

There are a couple more points I would like to make before I allow people to get in before the 5.30 pm deadline for getting a teacake. We support the idea that all areas should have an adequate number of GPs. That is why we launched the targeted enhanced recruitment scheme to attract doctors to train in locations that either have a history of under-recruitment or are currently finding it difficult recruiting. The scheme reflects the fact that trainees who are attracted to these areas usually stay on after training. Hundreds of doctors have trained in hard-to-recruit places since the scheme’s introduction, with 500 places available in 2021 and, we hope, 800 in 2022.

We also recognise that each community has different health needs, which emphasises the point noble Lords have made—that it is so important to hear the voice of primary care more loudly. We are taking steps to diversify the general practice workforce, such as by recruiting 26,000 more primary care staff. Making sure we have the correct mix of skills available in general practice is critical to delivering appropriate patient care across England.

One of the issues that we have to appreciate, though, is that as most GP practices are private partnerships and GPs are free to choose where they practise, a general medical practitioners equitable distribution board would have limited influence over the distribution of GPs across England, which is why we have to look at other ways to target those areas that are underserved. That is why it remains critical to continue encouraging trainees to train in hard-to-recruit areas and diversify the primary care workforce to support general practice in meeting the needs of its local community across England.

I have heard, once again, the mood of the Committee. That has become a familiar theme. I hope noble Lords will accept that I am open to further conversations in this area, particularly on how we hear the voices of all those in primary care, not just those of GPs but all of them, including those in ophthalmology, dental care and others. I hope that, in that spirit, noble Lords will feel it appropriate to withdraw or not move their amendments at this stage.

Health: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Debate between Baroness Cumberlege and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 12th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. The issues related to some of the guidelines concerning GET. There was a concern that these would be deleted. Some groups and stakeholders expressed the concern that, while some patients clearly found these damaging, others might find them helpful, or partly helpful—not as a cure in themselves but as part of their treatment. That is why NICE convened this roundtable to ensure that it hears a wide range of views. Hopefully, this can achieve some sort of consensus and help stakeholders to understand where others are coming from, so that some sort of agreement can be reached.

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

Those who have had the opportunity—and, indeed, the fortitude—to read the report First Do No Harm have been struck by the treatment of women, who have suffered greatly at the hands of a minority of members of the medical profession. Today, we have another example. Patients have been dismissed, ignored and not believed, and the majority of them are women. Can my noble friend give an assurance that women will be listened to and not treated in the way that many of us, men and women, have found appalling?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her question and for making time to meet with me in the early days of my job and give me the benefit of her experience, particularly on the issues she covered in the Cumberlege review. It is absolutely right that we praise our health service when it does well, but we should also be able to acknowledge when mistakes are made or when patients do not receive the kind of service we expect them to. It is important that my noble friend and others push me, as the Minister, and the Department of Health and Social Care to make sure that we are addressing the genuine needs of patients and that patients are not ignored. I pledge that I will be a champion of patients.