Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Cumberlege and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Friday 7th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

I will certainly try to explain. The data come from the Oregon Health Authority’s own reports, which are written annually, based on the returns by the doctors. We know only the information that is given by the doctors; we do not know what goes on otherwise. If a doctor does not report it, it is not known. We also know from the Oregon health reports that three patients actually woke up again and did not go on to die.

The point is that you are giving a massive dose of barbiturates that is at least 20 times what you might use therapeutically to render someone unconscious but leave them alive; it is a huge dose. When someone is frail and very near death, they may well die rapidly from ingesting a small amount of an additional drug, but I would also point out that in its data the Oregon Health Authority says that the shortest time was one minute, and that is before any drug would be absorbed. I found that interesting because, in my own clinical experience, there are patients who, when the family says to them: “It’s okay, you can let go”, die within minutes of that statement being made. In other words, when they are given permission to die, they let go of the drive to stay alive. I wonder whether the figures in Oregon showing a very short time demonstrate that the person has signalled that now they are letting go, and that is it. I am worried by the prolonged figures, however, and I would point out that the median means that half the cases take longer than 25 minutes. That still seems to me to be quite a long time, but we will discuss complications later in the debate, not in relation to these amendments.

There is merit in not using the clinical team that is looking after the patient, whoever they are, but using an independent assessment by people who are properly trained in assessing capacity and who have the ability to ask questions about the family that the doctor who was looking after the patient may, for whatever reason, feel uncomfortable or inadequate about asking. They may not be adequately trained, because very few doctors are properly trained in assessing capacity. I also emphasise to the House the merit of having an independent person give the drugs.

My final point is that it is important to look at those jurisdictions that have changed the law regarding what happens if you do not have the kind of control that the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, have been trying to put in. We know from Belgium that 32% of its physician-assisted euthanasia—that is how its law is framed—now happens without the explicit request of the patient, and we know from Belgium’s own data that it estimates that 47% is not reported. So without having these kinds of controls, you develop a very leaky system. The thought of people’s lives being ended without their explicit request is something that I find horrifying.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

I return to the point raised by my noble friend Lord Jopling about 41 hours. Does the noble Baroness envisage that there would then have to be a turnover of the staff with that person because we do not want people to die alone? I am thinking of how nurses operate their shift systems. This would possibly mean that you would get different people unknown to the patient coming in to sit with them during the 41 hours. Normally, nurses will try to stay with their patient for as long as possible.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. She has made a very important point. You would be tying up healthcare staff for an extremely long time. Indeed, there would have to be a change of shift. That is important for whoever has been involved in whichever process. The court-appointed person could change shifts and be in attendance to make sure that there was no foul play. It is not adequate just to deliver the drugs because the patient might not take all of them, and then what happens to the residue? I know the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, has tried to address that. You need somebody there to make sure that people do not think, “This is going on too long. Why haven’t they died yet?”, and put a pillow over their head. If the patient is going to be one of the people who wakes up again—and the number is very small—it is worth noting that those who woke up again in Oregon did not go for a second attempt at physician-assisted suicide but continued living until such time as they died naturally of their disease. There is something much more important going on here, but it would be extremely dangerous not to have that court-appointed person or system provide for accompaniment.

Immigration Bill

Debate between Baroness Cumberlege and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Wednesday 12th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Meacher has introduced this group of amendments with great clarity. I have added my name to Amendment 62 and I will speak to Amendment 64. Other Peers who have added their name send their apologies for not speaking at this late hour. I do not want to add much more to what has been said about domestic abuse and female genital mutilation except to say that I have a major concern as to how this will actually work in practice unless these groups are exempt.

What happens if a girl comes into the country, her status is not established, and she has infected wounds? What happens to the girl who has been mutilated and has urinary and voiding difficulties or suffers chronic pain? What happens during pregnancy, when delivery can be incredibly complicated? If it is not properly managed, a woman may literally burst because scar tissue is not elastic. We recognise FGM as an absolutely awful form of abuse and it is shameful that there have not been prosecutions already. If we put these women into the charging category, we will almost reverse the message we have sent to society about this terrible act.

The other problem arises with domestic abuse. If a woman arrives at A&E with severe facial injuries including fractures to the bones of her face or her chest wall, they may be life-threatening. If her ribs have been stoved in, it may be a life-threatening injury such as a pneumothorax and treatment will have to begin straightaway. Emergency service personnel are going to be put into a terribly difficult position. Another problem is that, in the societies from which many of these women come, sadly they are not afforded the rights they have in our society, and they are not given the respect they deserve. I am fearful that there may be a tendency to blame the woman if attempts to stay fail because she is a burden on the man, thus making it more difficult for him to stay.

Amendment 64 is about people who are released from detention. Currently, people can receive treatment while they are being held in an immigration detention centre and the course of treatment will be ongoing when they leave, but this may not be the case in the future. The consequences will be particularly acute in the area of mental health. It is well documented that the experience of an immigration detention centre is damaging to the mental health of many detainees. Without ongoing support, those mental health problems will be exacerbated rather than ameliorated at the point of release. The problem we are faced with is where to set the boundary and how it will actually be implemented.

These are probing amendments, but when regulations come before the House we will not be able to amend them. We will be faced with either accepting or rejecting them. That is why we need to tease out these issues very carefully at this stage.

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 66A on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, who sadly has another commitment that she has to honour this evening. Successive Governments have very good track records in safeguarding the public’s health. When I was a Minister, I was deeply involved in the Health of the Nation strategy, which was lauded at the time by the World Health Organisation as a model for other countries to follow. Since then, through the Labour Government and now our present Government, we have concentrated on looking after the public’s health. Indeed, Ministers were saying only in November last year that nothing will be done to worsen public health. Two years ago, this Government extended free treatment regardless of immigration status to include treatment for HIV infection. As was said at the time:

“Reducing transmission will reduce the risk of new infections in the wider UK population and … reduce … NHS costs”.—[Official Report, 29/2/12; col. 1397.]

They have confirmed that treatment for communicable diseases and sexually transmitted infections will remain free to all.

These are really welcome and important commitments but we have to be very careful that this proud record is not undermined by what we are now doing. Many noble Lords, I know, have a crystal-clear understanding of the Bill, as the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has explained to us this evening, but I would like to clarify some issues. First, who is actually going to be affected by these charges? I look to my noble friend to provide the clarity that I seek.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Cumberlege and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Monday 19th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My noble friend Lady Emerton, in tabling this amendment, has come up with something very sophisticated and really rather clever. By requiring education, she will ensure that the next group has its standards driven up. People enter into a caring group and learn from others around them; the problem is that at the moment they are learning bad practice as well as, hopefully, learning good practice.

Making sure that these are assured training programmes is eminently sensible. Modern educational techniques using e-learning, DVDs and other ways of training mean that you do not have to take people away from the job and put them in college. They could be given provisional registration while they worked through some of these training programmes. Modern ways of teaching also allow you to train those with very low literacy skills. It is worth remembering that some of the very high-standard care assistants in the system providing care in people’s homes often have low levels of literacy, so they need to be taught using modern techniques. This will allow that to happen. As for tracking their attendance, with electronic records it becomes quite easy to monitor what they turned up for and how they performed and to assess them in the tasks that need to be undertaken.

This amendment seems to meet all the criticisms that the Government laid at the door of previous amendments. I hope that it will get a better reception than its predecessors.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

As a fellow of the Royal College of Nursing and the Royal College of Midwives, I very much regret that I have been unable to take part in the previous debates initiated by the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton. I regret that for many reasons, not least because I had the privilege of introducing the noble Baroness into your Lordships’ House, and what a good thing that was. The noble Baroness is a truly remarkable person. I am not at all surprised that she has crafted this very clever amendment, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, recognises that statutory regulation will not always prevent abuse. Indeed, the chief executive of the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence told your Lordships at a seminar that the regulator is never in the room when abuse occurs.

I understand that the noble Baroness is calling not for regulation but for a voluntary register assured by the CHRE. People will get admittance to the register provided they have attended an assured training programme. The training programme is to be mandatory for all new healthcare support workers from 1 April 2013. I understand that that is where the Government have something of a problem because of the numbers and costs involved, as the noble Lord, Lord Patel, said.

However, is it not right that good employers should pay the registration fee and have some element of discrimination in deciding who they recruit to a job? The question asked by the noble Lord, Lord MacKenzie, was very apt. My noble friend’s answer to it will be very interesting. If individual support workers have to pay the registration fee themselves, it could be seen as a tax on work for people mostly on the minimum wage, and there is an issue about that. It will probably increase the cost of employment, and this is a market in which retail, part-time working and motherhood compete, so we have to be careful.

On Report, the noble Lords, Lord Turnberg and Lord MacKenzie of Culkein, referred to the history of state enrolled nurses. Unlike registered nurses, they were said to be used and abused. I remember that because I served with the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, on the United Kingdom Central Council for Nursing, Midwifery and Health Visiting where, over time, we phased out state enrolled nurses. They have been replaced to some extent by healthcare support workers, and we are facing almost the same issues again.

In the previous debate, my noble friend Lord Newton and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, were very kind to mention my role in nurse prescribing. I am delighted to see the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, in her place. I remember the day when we rejoiced in the fact that nurse prescribing had gone another step on the way. It took me 26 years to get that to happen—a very long time indeed—and we are not quite there yet. It seemed to me that nurse prescribing was extremely obvious. In the light of today’s debate on risk and risk registers, it probably would have been seen as a very high risk, but it has not proved to be so—but we are not there yet. I am very much hoping that, with the help of my noble friend Lord Henley and the Home Office, the last piece of this jigsaw will be put into place.

We started very small with nurse prescribing. We started with Bolton. The whole of Bolton took on nurse prescribing. In some parts of the country, the fight was enormous. GPs saw prescribing as their territory, and they did not want nurses to step into it. We managed to achieve it, and one of my real worries is that if we have support workers who, as the noble Baroness told us in the previous debate, are administering some very serious drugs, the work that I have done will be diminished because people will then think that nurse prescribing can be done by anybody with sufficient training, and that is dangerous. It is wrong for patients, and it is wrong for support workers who have perhaps been told that they have to administer these drugs.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Cumberlege and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Tuesday 6th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I have Amendment 165 in this group. It is designed to prevent anti-collaborative behaviour in the provision of healthcare services for the purposes of the NHS. Promoting collaboration and integration must be at least as powerful, if not more so, than preventing anti-competitive behaviour. We are well aware that no two patients are the same and, to date, all too often professional boundaries—whoever is the person providing the care—have created barriers. Those are very evident between primary and secondary care and can prevent a seamless patient experience.

This is not an amendment to prevent different providers coming together. Its aim is to ensure that whoever those providers are, whether they are NHS, whether they are from the voluntary sector or whether they are from social care, they must collaborate for the benefit of each individual patient. Therefore, the ways in which they will need to be able to collaborate will vary depending on the patients they are dealing with. Good care should treat the patient and their experience in the context of their life, social support relationships, cultural experience, gender and a range of other factors, and the services should support people to live productive, independent lives in their own homes for as long as possible. Patients, including older patients, must have access to specialist services, including in-patient, acute care when appropriate. Again, that will require collaboration between homecare services, in-patient services and step-down services to rehabilitate people in their homes. There will be a wide range of providers of all those services.

Population health needs and inequalities must be considered at the planning stage. Even doing that will require close collaboration between those doing the assessments. The tariff should reflect the complexity of clinical care and should encourage integration and collaboration between providers. The danger exists at the moment of a tariff structure that does not reflect clinical complexity but overcompensates for simple conditions and for those where there is a discrete episode of care, and does not recognise ongoing complexity. The tariff must work toward commissioning across the whole patient pathway. Information and data gathered around patients and clinical services should also reflect that. I hope that the amendment will make sure that the need for collaboration occurs at every level across providers, because at the end of the day Monitor will have the responsibility for licensing all providers.

The other reason for the amendment is that there will be times when competition and collaboration might appear not to be one and the same, and may indeed look to be in conflict. My concern is that unless there is a requirement for collaborative behaviour, it will be all too easy for the justification for commissioning to be based more on competition than on collaboration. In the balance of doubt, patients need to know that there is collaboration between their providers. There have been examples in social care and in the delivery of healthcare in care homes where integration could certainly have improved, for example, the unacceptable level of medication errors. Collaboration is going on among a variety of agents and stakeholders to develop practical solutions and an integrated approach to medication safety in care homes. Public health, too, requires the three arms of health improvement, health protection and healthcare delivery to work together, and will be very dependent on collaboration with other aspects of the NHS.

Perhaps I might take this opportunity briefly to correct a piece of information that I gave to the House in our previous debate and which turned out to be a little out of date—for which I apologise. It related to troops coming back from our theatres of war, where the provision of prosthetics has improved. This is an example of good collaboration between all agencies, which has been underpinned by the military covenant that the Government supported and instigated in legislation. The result has been an improvement in the care of those who are extremely vulnerable.

I hope that the House, and the Minister in particular, will see that there is a need to make sure that collaboration is driven forward between all providers, wherever they are and wherever they come from, so that the NHS and its principles can be underpinned for the benefit of patient outcomes.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I, too, tabled an amendment in this group. Before I speak to it, I will say that I very much support what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said. I was interested in an article in the BMJ that she, too, may have seen. It was a report by Nigel Hawkes on how competition works in healthcare and how it can stimulate the provision of better services. He went on to say:

“The report dismisses claims that competition makes integrated care impossible or that the opening of tendering a service to ‘any qualified provider’ amounts to privatisation of the NHS”,

and that,

“evidence suggests that competition with regulated prices”—

which is what we are proposing—

“can produce higher quality care at the same cost—and without leading to increasing inequity in access to care. Our message is that competition can help the NHS, but proceed with care”.

It is “proceed with care” that many of us want. Although I support the idea of competition, the National Health Service is not a free-for-all but a regulated market.

I think we need competition. Looking at the summary scores of the seven nations surveyed on health system performance, which have often been mentioned in earlier debates in this House, we do very well compared with other developed countries, but when it comes to patient-centred care, we come last—seventh. That is really why competition is necessary: to make the health service much more sensitive to the needs of patients.

I appreciate that noble Lords must label me the greatest bore on earth, but I am going to continue to bore because I am going to relate Monitor to the duties for patient and public involvement. This amendment introduces the same definition and scope of involvement for Monitor as Amendment 142, which I moved earlier on Report, on duties for NHS commissioners, including public and private providers.

On 16 February, I received a letter from my noble friend Lord Howe on patient and public involvement, and since then I have had some useful meetings with him. The context of this amendment is that patient and public involvement must be robust as we are moving towards a stronger, more plural market, which I support. Patient and public involvement is an even more indispensable component in a market where the consumer role is split between commissioners, who hold the money, and patients who consume the service. PPI must bridge this gap for the market to work well, as patient choice will never apply to some NHS services.

Given its pivotal role in the reformed NHS, it is vital that Monitor has a PPI duty that is consistent with that of the providers it is regulating. The Bristol Royal Infirmary public inquiry 11 years ago led to the statutory PPI duty and its report specifically mentioned regulators in the list of bodies that should have this duty, so Clause 61(7) is very welcome. However I do not feel that the wording of Clause 61 goes far enough to achieve the Bristol recommendation that regulators,

“must involve the public in their decision-making processes, as they affect the provision of healthcare by the NHS”.

On the broader PPI duty, my noble friend helpfully clarified at our meeting that statutory guidance will be used to describe what is reasonable in terms of PPI and that there will be consultation on its content. The intention, as I understand it, is that the guidance will require PPI in monitoring the impact of planning decisions or proposals to require the views of patient representatives and their carers. Perhaps my noble friend will confirm this. We also discussed the role of the NHS Commissioning Board in making sure that clinical commissioning groups enforce the model contract clauses on PPI against private providers. This is important as they do not have the statutory PPI duty that NHS providers have.

I think it is the Government’s intention to create a level playing field for patients and the public to influence private providers who are under contract to the NHS in the same way that they can influence NHS providers. Can my noble friend assure me that that is the case? That would be very helpful, particularly as providers may challenge statutory guidance as burdensome under the duty of autonomy in Clause 4 as amended.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Cumberlege and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Monday 14th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cumberlege]

Can I also ask the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about his amendment, in which he proposes setting up another very strong bureaucracy? It is a corporate body, known as a clinical senate; I presume, because it has a proper officer, that it will have a range of officials. It is suggested that it should revalidate doctors within the area, but I am wondering how that would work with the GMC and others. It will maintain a whole system of clinical governance within clinical commissioning groups and also authorise some of the clinical commissioning groups.

I can understand the noble Lord’s wish for some strategic leadership. I have been a regional chairman—and I have to say that our medical advisory groups were really excellent compared to those of south-east Thames. We had really good ones. But I am anxious about this matter. I sense that this is simply a probing amendment, because the membership of what the noble Lord proposes would be extremely bureaucratic. I understood that these were advisory boards, and that it was to try to get some of the clinical input from the acute centre into the commissioning groups so that they understood perhaps more clearly what they were commissioning in terms of acute services.

I very much look forward to what my noble friend is going to tell us as to how he sees this issue. But I must say to the most right reverend Primate—I think I have got that right—that if he can manage the Anglican Church he really could manage the National Health Service.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

I wonder whether this is one of the occasions where the organigram that we were discussing previously in Committee might be helpful. I would be grateful if the Minister could tell us in his summing up when we might expect to see that diagram.