Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Baroness Cumberlege Excerpts

Lords Hansard - part one & Committee stage
Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment. I start by thanking the campaigner, Julia Cooper, who the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, quoted earlier, for her extraordinary diligence and campaign and her 30,000-signature petition to Parliament. I also thank the excellent Pregnant Then Screwed charity and Stella Creasy MP for their briefings.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, has spoken eloquently on the need to add to the offence of voyeurism that of those breastfeeding. I echo her comments on the critical need to encourage mothers to breastfeed for as long as possible—hopefully for a minimum of six months. The truly long-term health benefits to babies are well evidenced, not least in the extra immune protection they are given, lasting for years. It is good that Clause 13(6) of the Equality Act 2010 currently protects breastfeeding women by saying that any business that displays less favourable treatment, or denies a woman access to goods or services, because she is breastfeeding can be in breach of the Act. This has been tested in the courts under the employment discrimination in McFarlane and another v easyJet Airline Company Limited, where the employer did not provide reasonable adjustments for new mothers who returned to work while still breastfeeding. However, there is no protection in itself of the act of breastfeeding, so it cannot be used to require the police or the courts to act to tackle the practice of taking photos or videos without consent.

I was pleased to be a member of the Liberal Democrat team supporting the Voyeurism (Offences) Act 2019, which created the criminal offence of up-skirting. Offenders now face up to two years in jail and being placed on the sex offenders register for taking a picture under a person’s clothing without them knowing, with the intention of viewing their genitals or buttocks. This law banned the degrading practice, with the intention of deterring perpetrators, better protecting victims and bringing more offenders to justice. As the law specifies the location in the body to which the Act applies as being below the waist, this legislation does not protect those who breastfeed from a similar intrusion. I remind your Lordships’ House that we did not need to wait for a Law Commission to decide whether that Act should go through.

Julia Cooper’s experience, outlined earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, is chilling. The 30,000 people who have signed her petition, and the evidence taken from Pregnant Then Screwed, show that this is not an isolated incident. Polling by YouGov in May this year shows that 75% of the public think that breastfeeding voyeurism should be banned. One new mother told Pregnant Then Screwed: “Just a few weeks ago, in my first time out with my new-born, feeding on a park bench, a man walks past, gets a camera out and, pretending to take a photo of something behind as he walks by, the camera tilts down on me. He caught me off guard so I didn’t say at the time, but I am now far more conscious of who is looking and would call them out. But we shouldn’t have to think like this.”

Why should we not follow the recommendation of Victoria Atkins MP, the Government proposal that the ongoing Law Commission review on taking, making and sharing intimate images without consent is the correct vehicle for legislation? This review is currently expected to report in the spring of 2022 and might make recommendations to expand the list of protections under voyeurism legislation, but even this is not guaranteed.

This simple amendment echoes the up-skirting legislation by seeking to amend the Sexual Offences Act 2003. It also uses the language of the 2019 Act and would require consent to photograph or record breastfeeding without prosecution, ensuring that women breastfeeding are given the same protection. If passed as part of this Bill, it would quickly—in legislative terms—give protection to women who breastfeed, without compromising the Law Commission review, which would have time to consider this change, if necessary, in more depth.

It is important to say that the amendment has the support of the National Childbirth Trust, the La Leche League and the Breastfeeding Network. Those of us in favour of the amendment are pleased that the Government think that it is unacceptable for breastfeeding voyeurism to take place. I thank the Minister for that, but will he say why, if the Government support the principle of the amendment, it would be acceptable to delay its implementation for years, which would be the result of taking the Law Commission route? Why not use the route of the up-skirting legislation, which did not have to wait for the Law Commission? I hope that the Minister will be able to support the amendment.

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

My Lords, with great alacrity, I support the amendment put forward so clearly by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. The noble Baroness, of course, has had a very distinguished career. We think of her as our first Lord Speaker in this House, but she also has a wide experience in health and other matters beyond. However, I just thought: “Breastfeeding? Why is she coming forward with an amendment on breastfeeding?” Then I understood that, when she was in the House of Commons, she was the first woman in Westminster to breastfeed. That must have taken a lot of courage and I congratulate her on that. Not only that, but, of course, as a Member of Parliament in the Commons, she also had the skills to manage the organisation of her constituency as well as a new baby. We know that new babies can be all-encompassing.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and I are fellow practitioners in breastfeeding. She has four sons and I have three sons. My aunt had six sons, and I thought that the writing was on the wall: three is plenty. I have to say that they have grown up and they are very nice young men. We, the practitioners of breastfeeding, know that breast is best. There is no argument about it: it is best for babies and best for mothers too. In fact, my husband said to me the other night: “It is best also for us, you know—the partners—because we don’t have to get up at two in the morning to feed the baby.” So he said there was a bonus there.

When I was a junior Minister in your Lordships’ House, I did my very best to promote designer food for babies. That is what we called it. We know that it improves the baby’s immune system, the respiratory system, the digestive system, the heart and circulation, the joints and muscles and much more. It is such an important start to life.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Baroness Cumberlege Excerpts

Friday 16th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

As I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, I am more than happy to talk about it. The example of the cancer specialist or the motor neurone disease specialist makes me instinctively, having considered it quite carefully, against the idea of any limit, but I am more than happy to discuss it.

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

My Lords, I listened with great care to what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said. The noble and learned Lord has been very helpful in saying that he will negotiate with people and talk further about this. Could he not think a little more widely, because there is real concern about the medical profession as a whole being involved in this? I am also concerned about the nursing profession and other clinical specialists who could be involved. As I read the Bill, it makes room for that.

Professionalism is such an important element in the work of all those people who work in the NHS. Professionalism is indicated by the values, behaviour and relationships that underpin the trust that the public have in doctors, nurses and other clinicians. One reason why I am against the Bill is that I think it is so damaging to the medical and other professions. I have listened to my noble friend Lord McColl, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and others. The commitment of the people in that service is outstanding. We know that doctors are the most trusted of all the professions. The trust is there because we know the intention of those people in treating us. We know that they come committed to cure, to treat, to alleviate pain and to be compassionate. The Bill goes against that.

Does the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, not think that we could be a bit more imaginative? Building on the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, which was passed at the previous Committee sitting, could we not have a person appointed by the court to carry the drug, medicine, dose or poison—whatever you want to call it—and actually administer it? If a nurse or a doctor finds that the patient cannot quite administer it, because they are compassionate people, will they not help that person to do it? Are they not then in real danger of cutting across the whole tenet of the Bill?

Perhaps the noble and learned Lord will talk to some of the rest of us. I have tabled amendments to enable that to happen, but we will probably not get to them today. Will he not widen his vision of the Bill to see whether he can protect the medical, nursing and other professions by building on the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, to have a person appointed by the court?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

I could answer that, but the noble Baroness has tabled a later amendment. I am not at all unsympathetic to what she is saying—although I think that it is adequately dealt with by the Bill—but I do not think that it is appropriate to be taken into that debate when we are dealing with other amendments. I am sorry, but I do not think that that is an intervention to which I should appropriately respond, because other people have made contentions in the course of the debate. With respect, to hive off into the noble Baroness’s later amendment does not seem a sensible way to conduct our business. I am sorry.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Baroness Cumberlege Excerpts

Friday 18th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

My Lords, my interests are declared in the register. I am aware of my limitations. I am not a philosopher, a theologian or a humanist. What I do understand is the health service. As a GP’s daughter and someone engaged in the NHS, social services and charities, I have seen the services from many different angles. The people who work in the health service have to be practical, highly skilled and very busy. They are ready to make bold decisions and are always trying to do their best. We have a public who expect the health service to always get it right, and when it does not do so they frequently sue. We want things to be medicalised—bad behaviour, obesity, and alcoholism. We are squeamish about death, and this Bill seeks to provide a solution—a gagging draught of poison to sort that one out.

So what are the realities of this Bill? The hope that the GP, who has known us all our life, will spend three or four sessions counselling us about our expectations of life and death is pie in the sky. Most people are registered with a practice, often a large one, which is open five days a week for 10 hours. Any doctor may see us. The doctor of our choice may, allowing for holidays and training courses, be available for 25% of the hours in a year. With a list as long as your arm, time for long, philosophical chats and analysing medical uncertainties is really not on.

Granny and Grandpa have made their wishes known. They have signed papers. Then what happens? They say: “Well it’s best done in hospital isn’t it? After all they know best. We wouldn’t like it at home, it’s not nice”. It is realistic to expect that 80% of those being put to death will be in hospital. There will be a lovely ward with beautiful murals, piped music and easy access to the undertaker set apart from the main hospital whose business is caring and cure—and the budget is out of control. Wait for the great scandal. More legal doses are given at weekends when staff are short, tempers frayed and the drunks are rolling in, causing mayhem. Doctors are busy. They will sign death certificates en bloc for trusted colleagues. The doctor who questions will be sidelined. It was not meant to happen but it is practical. The same will happen with the high hopes of the Bill. We are not talking about a slippery slope. This is a glacier. Doctors are wary because they know the realities; try as they might they may get it wrong. We gave up executing murderers, in part because, on occasion, we got it wrong.

The NHS is magnificent but it loses notes and muddles patients’ names. Bits of paper saying “Please put me down” will end up in the wrong place with the wrong person. If we extrapolate the Dutch experience, we would expect up to 40,000 deaths per annum in seven or eight years’ time. Is this really the triumph we seek? Is this compassion? Is this humanity?

Most of us subscribe to our local hospices, a movement started by Dame Cecily Saunders that has inspired similar work in the rest of the NHS, led by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. It is they who show true humanity. They bring goodness to death, whereas this Bill brings only despair. In practical terms, would we prefer to die in the arms of one who cares for us, or be administered with venom by a licensed killer?

Assisted Suicide

Baroness Cumberlege Excerpts

Wednesday 5th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, for initiating this debate and for introducing it so competently. I will be brief.

As your Lordships are aware, the policy for prosecutors was published in 2010 in respect of cases of encouraging or assisting suicide. A year after it appeared, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, chaired a group calling itself the Commission on Assisted Dying. The then Director of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer QC, told the group:

“There is a residual discretion for all offences whether to prosecute or not”.

He went on to say:

“This is a particular version of it. But it’s not unique by any stretch of the imagination; it’s the way our law operates”.

That is helpful, as it puts this particular policy into perspective. It is sometimes presented to us as something unusual, but it is not. As with many other offences, encouraging or assisting suicide can cover a wide range of criminality, from malicious assistance for personal gain to reluctant assistance after much soul-searching and from wholly compassionate motives. It is impossible to make criminal laws that cater for every conceivable circumstance. That is why we need discretion.

The judgment of the Supreme Court in 2009 was that the DPP should publish a prosecution policy in respect of encouraging or assisting suicide. The draft policy was subjected to a four-month public consultation, to which the CPS received nearly 5,000 responses. The policy that appeared four years ago was not, therefore, put together overnight. It is the result of careful thought and open consultation.

I am not in favour of trying to fiddle with the policy. There is no serious evidence that the law on encouraging or assisting suicide is not working as it should. Thanks to the deterrent effect of the present law, the offence is a rare one, and the few cases that occur tend to be those at the compassionate end of the spectrum, where prosecution is unnecessary. In the words of the former DPP to the group of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, the law “works well in practice”. I agree with him.