Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Merron

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I will come back to the noble Lord on that, and I thank him for asking the question.

I was about to refer to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler. I may not be doing so in quite the right place, so I hope she will forgive me, but I do not want to lose this point. She asked what engagement we have had with the Department for Education. Our officials have engaged with DfE officials on the development of the Bill, including on the interaction between the Bill and the Children Act, which I know is of quite a lot of interest to noble Lords. We have also discussed questions around the statutory test with both the DfE and the Ministry of Justice, given that competency tests apply in wider children’s settings than mental health. I hope that is helpful.

Amendment 136, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, would require the Government to hold a review of whether a statutory test of competence should be introduced into the Mental Health Act for under-16s within a year of the Bill being passed. While we recognise that there are competing views about Gillick competency, it is nevertheless the established framework for determining competency for children. To introduce a statutory test for under-16s only under the Mental Health Act is likely to risk undermining Gillick, which remains the accepted competence test for under-16s across all settings, including reproductive health and children’s social care, and the wider legislative framework on matters related to children.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

The trouble with Gillick is that it does not provide, for those who have to make the decision, how to do it.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I appreciate the point that the noble and learned Baroness has made. As I said, I know there are competing views about its application. I reiterate the observation that it is the current established framework, but I hear what she is saying about what she believes are the implications of that.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Actually, my feeling about the code of practice is something that I wanted to bring up, because it has come up quite a lot. The code of practice is statutory and aimed at practitioners, and it allows nuance and so on, but Gillick is in case law and it guides us throughout. The point I am trying to make is that if it is changed in respect of this Mental Health Bill then that has implications across the wider question of competency for younger people, and that is of great concern.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I apologise for interrupting the noble Baroness again, but the fact is—I speak as a former lawyer and judge who applied Gillick—it does not actually give guidance. All it says, as I understand it, is that under-16s have to be listened to. That is great, and I totally agree. What it does not do—but the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Meston, would—is set out the guidance that those who make the decisions need to have.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Obviously, I am listening closely to the noble and learned Baroness’s experience and feeling on the matter, and I will certainly be pleased to reflect on the points that she and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, have made.

If I continue, that may be of some assistance—we will see. It is of concern to me that the possible creation of two different tests will potentially cause further confusion and uncertainty on the ground. We are therefore not in a position to welcome a statutory test of competence in the Mental Health Act.

Before I continue to Amendment 147, I will come back to the good question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, about the legal status of clinical checklists. Because they are in the Bill, they are a statutory requirement for clinicians, to be followed in respect of all patients. I hope that will be useful.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Merron

Committee stage
Monday 20th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I too want to add, equally with great care, to this very interesting discussion. I am concerned about the police. I have not quite understood from the Minister her thoughts on a point that has been made twice now by the noble Lord, Lord Meston about everybody waiting for the police. Are the Government thinking of making it unnecessary for the police regularly to attend?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for their interventions. To the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss—how can I put this?—I say that the police should be there only when they are needed because they are the police. It is true—the point was made very well in the course of the debate introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady May—that it often goes beyond that. That is why “right care, right person” is something that colleagues are working on with police forces, as well as looking at the whole connection with health services. It is well understood.

I heard the comments of my noble friend, as well as those of the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, following on from the noble Lord, Lord Scriven. When the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, was speaking, the words that came into my head were “chicken and egg”, about legislation and skills. We looked at skills, but—these are not quite the right words—not at the expense of addressing the question of whether the law is in the right place. They are connected, but I refer the noble Lord to the points made earlier, by me and the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, about the response we have had from health and care professionals. It is about finding the right way. I take the point that there is a gap now. We do not want to make it worse, and we know that it is not acceptable.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Merron

Tuesday 14th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

To add to what the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, has said, I am having a problem understanding why the code is not statutory.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for their interventions, for which I am grateful. They give me the opportunity to say now what perhaps I should have said at the outset: I will of course reflect on all the points that are raised as we move forward. I will be honest and say that I am not sure that what I am about to say will do justice to the points that have been raised. Overall, the real concern is about making very complex legislation even more complex. We are wrestling with our attempt to update the Mental Health Act—we are not starting from scratch. That is the point I would like to like to move on to.

The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, raised a comparative point about the Mental Capacity Act and asked why, if that could include principles, it is not possible for the Mental Health Bill to. To extend what I have just said, it is because the Mental Capacity Act was structured around principles from the outset when it was drafted and did not have to meet the challenge that we are trying to debate today. As I said, we are currently looking at amending the existing Mental Health Act, which has not been designed or structured around statutory principles. In my language, I would say that we are starting from an entirely different place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am sure that the noble and learned Baroness’s yawn speaks for many.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I apologise.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

There is no need to apologise.

I am pleased to provide the reassurance that the proposed changes to the Section 3 detention criteria mean that it would no longer be possible to detain someone with a learning disability or an autistic person under Section 3, unless they have a psychiatric disorder. Additionally, the Act already requires a statement of rationale for detention and statutory forms. The registered medical practitioner will have to confirm that the patient meets the criteria for detention, including that they are suffering from a psychiatric disorder requiring hospital treatment and not just that the patient has a learning disability or is autistic. I hope that will be of reassurance to the noble Baroness.

For the reasons I have set out in respect of all the amendments—I thank noble Lords for them—I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw hers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I entirely understand what the Minister has just said, although I do not agree with her, but the point she made about other persons is not contained in the clause that I was complaining about.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble and learned Baroness for making that point, and I will gladly review this in the light of it.

To return to the specific amendments, they would ensure that the patient, the patient’s nominated person, the independent mental health advocate and the parent, guardian or other person with parental responsibility receive in all cases a copy of the report following a care and treatment review meeting—or a care (education) and treatment review meeting for children and young people. The current drafting of the Bill is intended to make clear that a copy of the review report must be provided to those who have a legal duty to have regard to the review recommendations, so that any recommendations are implemented as appropriate.

We recognise that there may be individual circumstances that mean it is appropriate for the report to be provided to other people, including the patient themselves. For children and young people, this report is most likely to be shared with a parent, guardian or other person with parental responsibility, but it is important that the legislation does not inadvertently create a legal requirement that must be complied with, which would not be appropriate for every person.

A longer list of people with whom the report must be shared, in every case, may increase the chance of an individual withdrawing the consent for a review to be held if they do not wish for some or all the people to see the report. There may also be circumstances in which the report should reasonably be shared with other people in addition to those set out in the amendments—for example, a family member who has been part of the review process with the patient’s consent but is not the patient’s nominated person or someone with parental responsibility.

We have tabled a government amendment to make it clear that the arrangements may include provision authorising or requiring a copy of the report to be given to other persons, so that the patient may also ask that a copy be provided to others or decide to provide it to others. Statutory guidance will help assist the responsible commissioner when exercising its functions, including when considering other persons who are to receive the report. We wish to allow flexibility for this, so that individual circumstances can be taken into account based on the needs of the patient and their wishes, rather than by providing a prescriptive list of people to whom the report is to be sent in every circumstance.