Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Brinton

Committee stage
Thursday 23rd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I have Amendment 14 in this group, but just before I get to that, from these Benches, I support everything that the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, just said. Had we had a proper, usual style of Committee we would have debated this for much longer and perhaps even taken things to a vote, but we recognise that times are different.

I have tabled Amendment 14 because I had a bit of a debate with the Minister about the previous software, Capture. I am very grateful to him for the private meeting that we had, where we discussed my concerns in some more detail. I hope he will be able to give some more reassurance.

Because there is now an inquiry or an investigation into the Capture process, it obviously cannot be included within the Bill. However, should that inquiry discover that the same sort of faults happened, and the Post Office used the same sort of criminal investigation procedure, could the Minister please explain, hypothetically, what would happen to Capture? Would it require a similar Bill to remedy the position of those postmasters, should they be found to have been incorrectly charged and then convicted? This is important because although there are differences between Capture and Horizon the more that is revealed, the more there are some striking similarities, both in Fujitsu’s denial of glitches and bugs and in the way the Post Office investigation team prosecuted cases.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I remain extremely unhappy about this Bill and the way in which it has arisen, but I recognise the overwhelming importance of, at long last, doing justice to sub-postmasters. I assume that the evidence given to the Court of Appeal would have been similar to the evidence given to the original court. In those circumstances, it seems that the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, is absolutely right and they should not be treated differently.

Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Brinton

Committee stage
Wednesday 14th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, who introduced the amendments in this group. I have signed Amendments 18, 23 and 47, but, like him, I have considerable sympathy with the others. The amendments discussed on Monday focused much on the rule of law and how the Bill sits within that. This group changes the focus to look at the most vulnerable asylum seekers, defined in our Amendments 18, 23 and 47 as unaccompanied children, victims of human trafficking or victims of modern slavery, and says that, for the purposes of this Bill, Rwanda should not be regarded as a safe country.

Noble Lords who worked on the Illegal Migration Act last year will remember that, during that Bill, these were three groups of asylum seeker where there was considerable cross-party concern about the Bill reducing their rights under domestic law and ignoring them under international law. There are amendments to follow that will go into more detail on these cases. I will not speak in detail ahead of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, but Amendments 23 and 47 would set on the face of the Bill, in Clause 2, that these groups of people should always be considered separately and not just with everybody else or as a generic group.

The first group is unaccompanied child asylum seekers. We have had many debates in the last three of four years, in the Nationality and Borders Act and Illegal Migration Act, about difficulties in assessing the age of unaccompanied children. We will come back to that detail next week. It is important to note that, on 22 January, the Guardian reported that at least 1,300 child refugees are at risk after being classified as adults, with some placed in adult jails after the Home Office wrongly assessed their ages. Others were sent to adult hotels without the right support. The Refugee Council, Helen Bamber Foundation and Humans for Rights Network report, Forced Adulthood, says that these children are exposed to “significant” harm. It reported that age assessments can be as short as 10 minutes. The consequences for these young people, if they are children, are serious. They breach international law, as well as the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, to which this country is a signatory.

For victims of modern slavery and human trafficking —I will not go into the detail of the excellent introduction by my noble friend Lord Scriven—I share my noble friend’s concerns. I note that this Government appear to have a short memory. In the Modern Slavery Act 2015, promoted by the then Home Secretary Theresa May, an Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner was created to improve and better co-ordinate the response to modern slavery. It introduced a defence for victims of slavery and trafficking, placed a duty on the Secretary of State to produce stat guidance on victim identification and victims’ services, and enabled the Secretary of State to make regulations relating to the identification of and support for victims. That is why the simplistic processing proposed in this Bill is completely inappropriate and why the Government need to respond to these amendments, as well as those proposed by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in this group. We have a duty as a nation to take care of the most vulnerable asylum seekers.

I also support Amendment 75 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, which my noble friend Lady Smith of Newnham has supported. It is unconscionable for us not to recognise the very particular circumstances of those who have supported our troops in the most difficult circumstances.

This Government used to believe in supporting asylum seekers, particularly the most vulnerable, and had processes by which they could do so, but they clearly do not anymore. Can the Minister explain to your Lordships’ Committee why this U-turn has happened and on what basis it is appropriate to disregard the rules they created less than 10 years ago?

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 70, 73 and 85. I support the other amendments in this group. I declare an interest as co-chair of the parliamentary group on modern slavery and vice-chair of the Human Trafficking Foundation. The purpose of my amendments is to draw attention to the Modern Slavery Act 2015 and the plight of victims of modern slavery trafficked to the United Kingdom, to ensure greater transparency and to put in place appropriate structures of due diligence and accountability.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Brinton

Committee stage
Monday 6th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I support the three amendments, but I do not intend to speak on them. I just wanted to support and admire what the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, had said about the European Parliament. It was about time it was said.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I will add one very brief point as well—following on from my noble friend Lady Ludford when she introduced Amendment 68 and 69A—which is the background in the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which has been referred to consistently during the preceding three days of Committee. It makes the important point:

“The approach taken in the Bill gives rise to significant legal uncertainty … There is no certainty about the sunset provision itself because Ministers can extend it under the delegated power in clause 2.”


The point about these two amendments is that they set out a framework including, at the end, a very high bar that both Houses of Parliament must agree the same recommendation to go back to the Minister, which would then ensure that the Minister acted on it. It is not just for debate in Parliament, as usually happens with secondary legislation; it is making sure that there is the evidence about the background—which other noble Lords have spoken about—but then both Houses must approve the same recommendations.

I echo the questions that other noble Lords have asked. I hope that the Minister can explain to us why this safety net, as set out by the various stages in these amendments, would not be enough to reassure Ministers that we are helping them to do the job they need to do in this extremely complex matter.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Brinton

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage
Wednesday 17th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, picking up on what the Minister said about rehabilitation, this is a probing amendment; I have no intention of taking it further. However, there are a very considerable number of people who arrived in prison with drink and drug addiction. All too many of them pick up addiction—perhaps not drink but drug addiction—in prison. The trouble is that, when they leave prison, they almost certainly will not have had very much, if any, help. There are a few systems—but very few—and they are almost certain to reoffend because, once you are addicted to drugs or to drink, you are going to reoffend because you need the money.

There is a cycle of offences by vulnerable people who have taken up drink and drugs who may be committing drug offences but are equally likely to be committing offences of burglary, theft and other similar crimes. So I am suggesting that the Government put in place at least one residential unit as a pilot project. I know Governments like pilot projects; the great problem is to get them beyond the pilot. In this case, I would like them to get to first base, to a pilot project where a drug or drink addict—generally a repeat offender—should be sent to that residential unit as a probation order, with a requirement to stay there. If they do not want to go or do not stay the course, of course they have a sentence of imprisonment and go back to prison.

It really might help a considerable number of people. With any luck, it might reduce some of the prison population. So, although the up-front cost of such a residential unit would no doubt be expensive, I suspect it would become cost-effective in the long term. I am not certain that this is really appropriate for primary legislation, but I have put it here to nudge the Government into trying to do something. I beg to move.

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I support the probing Amendment 242 from the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. As the Minister referred to “juvenile” earlier, I remind the Committee of his views on heavy drinking: that it can be either a civilising force or the bane of civilisation. In society today, particularly in those who offend, it might be the latter.

The Liberal Democrats have long believed that the best treatment for drug and alcohol addiction is to treat it as a health emergency for the individual and society. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, outlined, there are already interventions in prison for those with addictions, whether drug or alcohol. But many are talking therapies, many of which, as a result of the pandemic, remain on the phone or on Zoom, and it is certainly true that we are hearing that offenders are finding that less effective.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, is right: a custodial sentence is the right time to think about dedicating time and energy to a residential rehabilitation course, where there are no distractions or problems of cancellation or changes of prison where you cannot continue with the same course. The NHS Integrated Substance Misuse Treatment Service in Prisons in England report, published in 2018, says:

“The purpose of health care in prison, including care for drug and alcohol problems, is to provide an excellent, safe and effective service to all prisoners equivalent to that of the community—whether the aim is stabilisation, crisis intervention or recovery from dependence.”


The guiding principles are “Recovery”, “Reducing harm”, “Reducing deaths in custody” and “Reducing reoffending”.

Recovery is key, but the reality is that the numbers are not good. The last report from the Ministry of Justice Alcohol and Drug Treatment in Secure Settings: 2018 to 2019, shows that the current arrangements have mixed results. It reports that of 53,000

“adults in alcohol and drug treatment in prisons and secure settings”

in that year, around 65% started treatment and just under 60%

“left treatment in secure settings.”

The report says that only just over a quarter of those who were discharged after completing their sentence were free of dependence. The figures for young people receiving treatment, principally for alcohol and cannabis problems, are not dissimilar. Of those young people who left secure settings in 2018, under 30% completed their treatment successfully.

Continuity of care between treatment services is absolutely vital, and the proportion of adults successfully starting community treatment within three weeks of release was only a third. The intensity and focus of residential courses for people addicted to drugs and alcohol already has a higher success rate, and if attended near the start of their sentence could well mean that they have a real opportunity to learn to live with recovery.

Public Health England’s evidence review of drug treatment, published in 2015, says:

“The costs to society are significant. Latest estimates by the Home Office”,


in 2013,

“suggest that the cost of illicit drug use in the UK is £10.7bn”.

Of those costs, NHS costs are 1%, enforcement costs 10% and drug-related crime costs 54%. Public Health England’s review notes that, in all, around 50,000 people received drug treatment in prison in 2015-16. Nearly one-third had also received drug treatment in the community. The numbers are stuck. They are not improving.

The review makes two key points: waiting times to access a course and active steps taken to prevent a drop-out are significant in achieving a good outcome. This amendment proposes a mechanism that would not only prove beneficial to the offenders attending it, with a higher rate of success than the range of other interventions currently used, but would serve society and significantly reduce the costs of drug-fuelled crime.