Armed Forces (Flexible Working) Bill [HL]

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 11th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I regret that I have come rather late to the Bill. I am also one of those who has never done any form of military service, so I speak as a genuine civilian. I have been listening with great interest to the argument and it does seem to me that there are great dangers in using the phrase “part-time”. I think it is a very clear case. I was particularly interested by the words of the noble Lord, Lord Condon. Will the Minister take into account what the police did when they did not use the phrase “part-time” but found other phraseology? If, in fact, there are legal reasons, as the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, pointed out—which I find difficult to understand—why “to take breaks” may not answer the case, it really is not beyond the ability of Ministry of Defence lawyers, I should have thought, to look at other phraseology, suitable for the police, that could be adapted to the armed services.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, before I comment on the amendment, I say at the outset that as I have reflected and listened to the debate I was very much struck by the point made right at the beginning by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce. His words convinced me that there is nothing in civilian life that compares to life in the services. We in this House and in the country must recognise that when you join the Armed Forces, it is not like joining Barclays or Tesco; you are joining an organisation in which you can put your life on the line to defend our country. We in this House and in the whole country, whenever we talk about defence, must remember that and remember that it is people we are talking about.

The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, when he moved his amendment on this matter in Grand Committee, raised his concerns about the term “part-time”, questioning, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, has said, whether it had,

“the potential for misunderstanding and for belittling the reputation of the Armed Forces”.

He therefore asked a very simple question:

“Could a better, less questionable word or phrase be used instead?”.—[Official Report, 12/9/17; col. GC 69.]


That is at the heart of this debate.

In Grand Committee I made it clear from these Benches that we are sympathetic to the noble and gallant Lord’s amendment, and that position remains unchanged. The men and women of our Armed Forces are truly exceptional. That is accepted around the world, and it is the duty of any Government to protect this reputation. However, terminology is all-important in these matters—a point I recall the Minister also making. Communication and language is complicated enough. Call me old fashioned, but I am sure that I am not alone in this House when I say that plain speaking is the best way to communicate.

In Committee we urged the Government to respond and come back at Report. In the interim, authors of various amendments in Grand Committee received very thoughtful, helpful letters from the Minister. While I accept that this is not the only concern behind the noble and gallant Lord’s amendment, I was pleased to see the Minister stress that the Bill could not be used by a future Administration to force an individual into part-time working. I hope that he will repeat that today.

Of one thing I am certain, and again I echo the words of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, in Grand Committee:

“First, let me confirm my acceptance in principle of flexible schemes which are viable, enjoy service support and do not detract from the operational 24/7 capability of the Armed Forces”.—[Official Report, 12/9/17; col. GC 69.]


We would certainly endorse that, but I am sure that I am not alone when I say that I do not want to jeopardise the opportunity to put the simple yet powerful aspiration that the noble and gallant Lord articulated so well into action. I hope that the Government will have a positive response to help us this afternoon.

Investigatory Powers Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Monday 12th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Swinfen (Con)]

My Lords, what if we were to leave out the last part of the amendment,

“against force or the threat of force”?

I wonder about cybersecurity—which is new to most of us. You do not need weapons to threaten a nation today: it can all be done in the ether. I think that this amendment might be a lot better if those last few words were deleted.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I have not spoken often on this Bill but felt impelled to say that what the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, have said is extremely good sense and the Government should follow it.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, given what has been said, I have little to add. I was born in Germany after the war, when it was so easy to define national security. It was about people coming over our border. Today, it is about our streets and about keeping people safe at home and abroad. I look forward to the noble Earl’s response. I do not think it is wise to try to define national security in the Bill, not simply because of the complications but because the definition changes. I know that it is a long time since I was born, but even over the next five years the definition will change again. We look forward to hearing the Government’s comments.

Investigatory Powers Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (LD)]

My Lords, after a good deal of thought, my conclusion is that I support the conclusions of the Joint Committee, not the amendments. I previously joined the noble Lord, Lord King, in trying to bring provisions such as this to the statute book rather more urgently. I agree with his comment that it is the most scrutinised Bill we have ever seen—certainly in my more than 30 years in one or other House of Parliament. It was published with three independent reports supporting it, one of which, David Anderson’s report, was extremely complete and considered every aspect of the proposed legislation. It comes to this House with more documents published by the Government, including some of the inner work of GCHQ, than we have ever seen before. It is a great tribute to GCHQ that it accepted the advice that many people outside its establishment gave to it that it should reveal more of what it is doing. I absolutely agree with what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Evans, who had great experience of these matters throughout his career until he entered your Lordships’ House.

What are we really trying to achieve? I think that we are trying to achieve what we already do when we have the opportunity to do it. There is a clear analogy here with mobile telephony records. As the Crown Prosecution Service has said, in 95% of the serious cases that are tried—when there is a not guilty plea, in other words—in the Crown Courts, mobile telephony records and cell site analysis are used as an extraordinarily powerful tool contributing to the conviction of very serious criminals.

On this occasion, I am not going to bore your Lordships with anecdotes about cases that I and other noble Lords have been involved in, for the simple reason that there are far too many cases to describe from those anecdotes in which mobile telephony records have been used to good effect. What technique is used—or has been used up to this stage, until this Bill is enacted—for accessing mobile telephony and internet connection records? Where they are available, the police and other authorities try to obtain access to them; when they obtain access to them, they can track the activities of the people whom they suspect; and, when they can track those activities to good, evidential effect, they use them. The result of that is to be able to put extremely powerful evidence before the courts. All that we are trying to do in this Bill is to create a reliable system that is as uniform as possible so that this type of information can be used in all cases.

Underlying the criticism of this provision is some kind of mythology about the activities of the security services, GCHQ and the police. There seems to be a myth about that they are so bored, so inactive, so idle and so inert, and suffer from such excessive curiosity, that they have the time to look at the completely uninteresting, irrelevant internet records of any member of the public for something to do. That is an appalling suggestion, quite apart from the extremely strong discipline exerted—and I looked at this in some detail when I was Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation and subsequently—on members of those security services. There are some far more experienced than me in this House, sitting in this House today, but I am sure that those noble Lords and noble Baronesses would agree that, if people were so stupid as to use their time in the security services to look up our credit card accounts, for example, they would be in very serious disciplinary trouble. So let us put that canard aside.

Let us also remember that we are not comparing like with like when we talk about other countries. The Joint Committee came to the conclusion—and the Government have, rightly, come to the same conclusion—that the Danish experiment failed because it was different and did not use the most appropriate technology. It was unfortunate for the Danes—they did it before we decided to do it—but the fact is that the Danish experiment is irrelevant to this discussion. Let us not forget, too, the powers of investigators in other countries. We are setting down in this Bill controls of the security services and anybody else who wishes to obtain access to those records, which will be the best controls in the world. We are ahead of the rest of the world in these provisions.

Compare it with what juges d’instruction can do, for example, in France or Belgium. If any one of us is an accused in France or Belgium or any other country on the continent where they have that kind of system, not only will the juges d’instruction have access to those records in any event, and not only do they have powers to direct that they have disclosure of those records to themselves, but the subject will never have the faintest idea that that has been done. Although it is tempting to compare what we do in this country with a number of other countries, it is misleading because no two systems are the same.

I agree with the right reverend Prelate that this proposal has been examined. It has had as objective an examination as one could imagine. It is a matter of record that my noble friend Lord Strasburger, like it or not, agreed with the committee’s conclusion. History will say that he agreed with that conclusion because it is there in the committee’s report. It is now time that we move on, accept that this Bill contains an objective analysis and pass this important set of provisions which will help our authorities to catch the most serious criminals, including hundreds of paedophiles, as alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Evans.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I have not spoken at all on this Bill so far but I should like to make a practical point following what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and previous speakers have said. I speak as a former family judge who over the years has been very involved in safeguarding. One of the most important things is to be sure that the police—it is really the police that we are talking about, rather than the security services—have all the tools that they can possibly have to be able to convince a jury, on a prosecution, that a really serious crime has been committed. If this is going to catch even more paedophiles I endorse it, and I hope the House will agree with me.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, I shall be very brief. As has been said, the provisions of this Bill have been subject to considerable scrutiny. The heart of Amendment 156A is about the balance between privacy, security and safety. Inevitably there will be disagreements, which have been highlighted in this debate, about where an appropriate and proper balance lies.

On Amendment 147A, I have virtually no knowledge about the Advocate-General’s opinion, to which reference has been made. However, if we have that opinion, we would like to hear at some stage whether the Government think that it would have implications for any of the provisions and procedures in the Bill, were that opinion subsequently adopted.

Immigration Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I should say at the outset that the Home Secretary has been kind enough to suggest that I have a couple of meetings with her to discuss this issue. I also discussed it with the noble Lord, Lord Bates, on a number of occasions. Indeed, at the Home Secretary’s suggestion, I have also had discussions on the phone with Home Office staff, so the Government have gone out of their way to explain to me what they seek to do. If one ignores the purpose of my amendment, which concerns unaccompanied child refugees in Europe, then what the Government are doing is commendable. The amount of money being spent in the region is good. As regards the policy of taking 20,000 vulnerable people, it is a small number in relation to the scale of the problem but it goes in the right direction. In addition, we are a very generous donor. All that is on the plus side, and nobody would disagree with the comments in relation to families staying together, the best interests of children and children in Europe.

I sat in the Commons for quite a lot of the debate that took place there yesterday. I wish to quote the words of one of the noble Earl’s colleagues—Stephen Phillips, a Conservative Member of Parliament—who supported the Lords amendment and talked about children left in Europe:

“That is no comfort to the children who are already in Europe, who have fled from war and conflict that have torn apart their lives, and who need our help now”.

He refers to children in various parts of the continent and then says:

“Tonight they will sleep in fear, and tomorrow they will wake to the hopelessness to which their position exposes them. Today, in this House, we can do something. We cannot solve all their problems, remove all their troubles, or take from their consciousness the memory of the horrors that they have witnessed and endured, but we can do something”.—[Official Report, Commons, 25/4/16; col. 1212.]

That sums up what this is about.

The case for the original amendment—and the new one—is that it has immense cross-party support. The original amendment had figures put to it: 3,000 children out of what we then thought were 26,000 child refugees in Europe. We now learn that the figure is much higher and 95,000 has been quoted. All we are talking about is the British Government’s share. Britain should do something as a share of the total responsibility that has to be exercised. We have heard of the dangers: at least 10,000 of these children have disappeared. They are vulnerable and open to exploitation.

Since this House last discussed this amendment, I have been astonished at the amount of popular support there has been for it. I would not normally think that an issue to do with refugees and migrants would command such support. I cannot cope with the emails coming in from people I have never met or heard of who are saying that we should continue with this because it is the right policy. The British people are rising to the need for a humanitarian response. It is fine that we are doing good things in the region, but British people see that there is a problem for children exposed and vulnerable in various parts of Europe. They are not all safe. They may be in an EU country, but many of them are in dangerous circumstances. The fact that many have disappeared altogether is an indication of how alarming the position is.

I will not disguise the fact that last night’s outcome was disappointing. I felt very upset watching the result of the vote being announced in the Commons. The Government’s main argument seems to be that if we do anything for the children in Europe it will be a magnet for further ones to come. That was the thrust of the noble Earl’s comments just now. Yesterday afternoon, on the green outside, I was talking to a young 16 year-old Syrian man who had come here. We asked him about his family. He said they were all dead. He is not being lured by the attraction of an amendment passed here. He does not see it as a magnet. He came to save his life and get out of the most dreadful situation. He spent many months travelling to Calais before he got to Britain. He has a relative in Britain, so he should have been dealt with a long time ago. He had been in a desperate situation. I could not give any advice except to say “Learn English” and “I am glad you are here”. That refutes the magnet argument, as did Stephen Phillips MP and other Conservative MPs in what they said yesterday.

I do not want this debate to degenerate into an argument about financial privilege. There will be another day for that. However, the Government’s only argument, according to the Marshalled List, is:

“Because it would involve a charge on public funds, and the Commons do not offer any further Reason, trusting that this Reason may be deemed sufficient”.

That is, frankly, parliamentary baloney. I am glad that, in the Commons, Mr Speaker said that he was not happy about the use of financial privilege in this way and has referred the matter for more consideration. I do not want this to be about financial privilege. We are talking about vulnerable young people in Europe.

As a result of the debate in the Commons, the amendment before us today is different. Some of my critics might say that it was a bit softer. The wording is new and I hope it will be easier for the Government to think about and accept it. It drops the specific number, because the Government were resistant to that. It now says that the UK should,

“support a specified number of unaccompanied refugee children from other countries in Europe”,

and that:

“The number of children to be resettled … shall be determined by the Government in consultation with local authorities”.

In other words, I see a process where the Government will discuss with local authorities what resettlement of unaccompanied child refugees is manageable in their own areas. There will be a process of consultation, which should make it easier to move forward. I see a rolling programme and I see the Home Secretary having the power to determine the numbers and how fast the process can go. I do not think anything can be more reasonable than that. I have bent over backwards in the wording of this, with the help of a lot of other organisations, to find a form of words that surely the Government can accept.

Whatever the Government have said about doing stuff in the region, which is good, basically this will leave unaccompanied child refugees in a vulnerable position. They are liable to be lured into trafficking, possibly into prostitution. They are liable to come to all sorts of harm. None of us would want our own children to be subject to that sort of environment, with no hope of moving forward. It is an appalling situation. As a country with strong humanitarian traditions, we can do better. I beg to move.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I add my congratulations to the government contribution to dealing with children, albeit beyond Europe. They have put great resources towards it and I agree with much of what the Government are proposing. The Minister urged me to listen with very great care to what he had to say. He spoke about tackling the task in the way in which the Government choose to tackle it, but it seems to me that it can be tackled in several ways and there is nothing incompatible with dealing with the children from Syria—from across that water—and doing something about the children in Europe.

The “pull factor” has been a very popular phrase among government supporters. We are now told that there is a reduction of some 80% in the number of those coming across from Turkey to Greece. Thank goodness for that. That pull factor must have some less importance now. But what is of the utmost importance is that it says in the Children Act, as it has been said by government—it is said everywhere—that the welfare of children is of paramount concern. We know that across Europe but we also know that there are thousands and thousands of children in Europe who are not being properly cared for.

It is great that the UNHCR is doing what it is doing but Save the Children is concerned. It is now saying that a great many children are at risk. As the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, pointed out—and it was pointed out earlier—10,000 children have gone missing. Knowing what I do about human trafficking and modern slavery, I am sure some of those children are already being sexually exploited or exploited for forced labour. The longer we wait, the more children will be in danger of sexual and labour exploitation—and some will die.

Other European countries should play a part and pull their weight. That does not mean that we should not. As the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said, this country, with our humanitarian background, should be showing the way, and the fact that the Government are doing this wonderful work elsewhere does not mean they should take their eye off the ball and away from children in great danger in different parts of Europe. They may be homeless, sleeping rough or without enough food or accommodation; we hear the stories. Even if the pull factor is applying, even if there is a concern that children should be with their parents— of course—there is no shortage of children who are unaccompanied and alone and need help. My goodness me, should we not be doing something for some of them?

Tax Credits (Income Thresholds and Determination of Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Monday 26th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I think that that is a bit of an angels-on-pinheads defence, but I take the point that she makes.

I suspect that when the noble Earl, Lord Howe, took on the role of defence Minister, he did not think that his job would be defending all government policies across the House, as he is being asked to do today.

We have been asked to approve the Government’s tax credit order, and we are unable to do so. The reasons for that have been very carefully laid out. Our view is that these are pernicious regulations that do enormous damage. Overnight, at a sweep, they would dramatically cut the income of some of the poorest in society: those who are working hard and doing what the Government say is the “right thing”. About 3 million people will be affected by these cuts. Like many other noble Lords, I have had emails and letters from those who are likely to be affected: from nurses, teachers, cleaners and firefighters—people working hard, trying to raise a family. They are terrified by what lies before them; they do not know how they are going to cope. The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, echoed some of the emails that I have received when she talked about those who have disabilities being moved into work and finding it so much better for them.

When my noble friend Lady Hollis spoke to her amendment, the House was silent. We could have heard a pin drop as we listened to what these cuts will really mean and the impact that they will have on people across this country. I think that the House was shocked and upset by the information that she provided today. However, she also provided a way through.

The noble Lord, Lord Lawson, said that tax credits have increased to £30 billion. They have; that is part of their success. In almost equal measure, we have seen income support reduce as people went into work. Therefore, they were no longer on income support but were receiving tax credits—that was the success of the measure. Income support went down as people moved into work and received tax credits to reflect their circumstances and help them to work. We have always been told that the way out of poverty is work, and that is what those people on tax credits have done; they have moved into work.

It may be that some people cannot imagine what it is like to lose £25 or £30 a week from their income. For a lot of people out there, the loss of that £25 or £30 a week—in some cases much more—would be devastating. It would mean not putting in the money for heating this winter when it gets colder; it would mean not getting the kids new school shoes; it would mean making the kinds of choices that we should never place on families.

This is a highly contentious area, but it is the policy that is important. Having said that, there are conventional and constitutional issues, which noble Lords have raised, that have given some concern. It would, as we have heard, normally be expected for a measure of this nature and magnitude to be introduced by primary legislation. Thus, a government Bill would go through all the stages that such a Bill goes through and there would be the opportunity to debate it, put amendments to it and vote on those amendments. There would be opportunity to make revisions and to listen to the concerns that were raised. One has to wonder why the Government did not take that route. They could have applied financial privilege, which would have stopped all this, but they have chosen to deal with this measure through a statutory instrument.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness, but we did hear from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, that this came about as a result of the secondary legislation from the tax credits legislation introduced by her Government. As a result of which, this is a natural progression from that legislation. Therefore, perhaps the noble Baroness could explain why that was wrong.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I can certainly help. In 2002, the legislation that went through that allowed for amendments to tax credits legislation to be made by statutory instruments or delegated legislation was so that normal uprating, for example, could be applied. It was for minor changes and normal uprating. However, major policy changes would not normally be made by these kinds of regulations. Furthermore, as I said earlier in my intervention on the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, the legislation in 2002 was not itself subject to financial privilege. But now we have a Government saying that the secondary legislation that follows on from that should be subject to financial privilege. I hope that that addresses the concerns that the noble and learned Baroness has raised. I give way to the noble Baroness yet again.