HMRC: Tax Returns

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Wednesday 10th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

No, and I would be very happy to look at any evidence that my noble friend has. My understanding is that, for more complex tax matters which require the intervention of an HMRC adviser, those tax returns are dealt with within about three months.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, someone I know made an application online for information 15 months ago and has not yet had a reply, so I am wondering what happens online.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Without further information about that case, it would obviously be very difficult for me to comment. If the noble and learned Baroness would like me to pass her friend’s information to HMRC, I would be very happy to do so.

Banking Hubs

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Monday 11th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with that in principle, and that is what the FCA set out in its consultation. If the assessment is that a community needs services, it will be beholden upon the designated firms—the banks—to put an alternative service in place before the last bank is closed, or alternative services will need to be put in place within three months if the existing service had somehow disappeared many months or years beforehand and an assessment was made that the community was lacking access to cash.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

Perhaps I may add to what other noble Lords said about the urgency of this. In the part of Devon where I live, it is a desert. In Fleet Street, there used to be two Barclays branches between the law courts and the Old Bailey and now—can you believe it?—there is none; and yet, another set of courts is about to be built. Can the noble Baroness inject some urgency into this?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is why the Government decided that it was time to legislate. We felt that the voluntary initiative was not coming along fast enough, and we legislated in the Financial Services and Markets Act in the summer. The FCA, the key independent regulator, has brought forward its consultation in short order.

Home Office: ODA-funded Support

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, that Act is only in the process of being brought into force but it is an important part of our approach to reducing the pressures of illegal migration, so that we can better address the needs of legitimate asylum claims in this country.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, following the previous question, how will the Act, when it is implemented, stop the boat people?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, by ending illegal entry as a route to claim asylum in the UK, we will change incentives for those who wish to enter the UK by that route, but it is not the only action that the Government are taking. We are working closely with law enforcement in France; we have a number of other initiatives upstream that are all aimed at tackling this problem, and we have seen that small boat arrivals to the UK are down by 20% this year.

Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I very often find myself in disagreement with the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, as she knows very well, but on this occasion I strongly support her powerful and very moving speech. We are talking about a disadvantaged section of the workforce. As the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, has just said, the wording of the regulations is a matter for the Government of the day, who could therefore keep regulations in such a way as to allow the maximum flexibility. However, I felt that he was not thinking about the single mother or the examples given by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, such as the woman who gets somebody to look after her child on Friday, then finds that she has not got the job on that day but has still had to pay for care. She is then expected to turn up on Saturday and cannot afford the care for the child or to go to work. She is therefore penalised the following week. That cannot be what the noble Lord thinks that we should be cautious about.

I absolutely recognise that in a time of austerity—a time when the GDP is at long last rising and we want the utmost flexibility in business—we should not generally be putting curbs on business. However, speaking as a woman, we have to look at this. As a mother and grandmother who had to play my job as a barrister, and then as a judge, against the care arrangements when the nanny did not come in or the au pair was sick, I just said, “What do I do? How do I get to court?”. I was very lucky—I was very privileged—but these women are not. To suggest that we should keep the flexibility at their expense is something that I feel very concerned about. I am speaking rather passionately about this because of what the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, said.

For goodness’ sake, the CBI, which cares about improving the GDP and having flexibility in business, supports some form of compensation. That is very significant support for what, to me, is a modest amendment. I hope that the House agrees.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I must confess that I find myself in a very difficult position. Your Lordships will know that I usually have views on things and people will know pretty clearly which side I am on. I find this one of the most difficult things to come to terms with because, for example, having some experience of employment in France I am perfectly clear that the unemployment rates there are very strongly affected by the stupidity of French employment laws. We in this country have had a much more open way of dealing with employment and, although we may think that zero-hours employment is not the ideal form of employment, it has certainly provided people who would otherwise not have a job with one.

As an employer who does not use this employment in any circumstance, I can honestly say that that is because I am privileged to run businesses which have been able to hold their head well above water during this depressing time. Businesses which have not been able to do that would not have been employing anybody if they could not have managed their way through recession in the way that they have done, through the use of employment practices of this kind. My concern is that this House should be very careful about making decisions that replace a form of employment with these disadvantages with no employment at all. I am sorry, but that is the issue. We are, I think, in danger if we say to ourselves, “This is what we would like to see, and we don’t see why we shouldn’t see it, and therefore we must see it”. I have a problem with that.

On the other hand, I accept very strongly that there is a difficulty for the single parent who has to make all sorts of arrangements in advance if they are to do a job at all. This Government have been absolutely right in trying to find ways in which we could encourage such women back to work. They do that not only because it contributes to society but because it also contributes to the women themselves. There is nothing as depressing as trying to live on a very small income and not being able to get out of that very closed-in situation. Those of us who have been lucky enough to bring up children in relative comfort and with two parents know how important it is for one or other of you—usually your wife—to hand the child to the other and say, “Look after it, I just have to have a moment”. That is the nature of bringing up children, and I have every sympathy with that.

I wonder, though, whether we should be careful and mindful of what the amendment says and whether the Minister will think on this: we do not want to do something that replaces less than good employment with no employment at all. The issue that the noble Baroness raised is very important. I am not sure that the amendment is right, but it is not an issue which we can just leave and let it go on. We really do have to see whether we can find proper evidence for a way of doing this that is not going to have the downside that I suggested. Is it possible for the Minister to give us some suggestions as to what she might do to meet the gravamen of the case in a way that does not have the downside that my noble friend Lord Stoneham has put forward? Is there a way in which we could get better evidence and find a more precise way of helping people, particularly the women concerned?

I think that it is very difficult for young people. But, in the end, young people are normally resilient enough to overcome those difficulties and I am not sure that I would risk anything to remove that. However, there is a specific case here for a specific group of people. I wonder whether the Minister can find a way through that, because otherwise I, along with my noble friend Lord Stoneham, think that the balance is just too dangerous for us to step over. But I would still like us to do better than that. Perhaps the Minister will find a way of helping me, for a rare time, find a clear answer to what seems a very difficult problem.

Medical Innovation Bill [HL]

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Friday 12th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I also remind noble Lords that, under the rules of the House, it is not permitted for noble Lords to speak after the Minister.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

But it is permitted for noble Lords to ask the Minister a question before she technically sits down. I should just like to reiterate what has already been said: it seems to me that making the register compulsory ought to be on the face of the Bill.

[Lord Saatchi]

I am going to put my notes to one side, probably to the horror of parliamentary counsel. On this amendment I find myself in complete agreement with every word that has been said by every Peer who has spoken on the subject. The reason is that it has been my fundamental position on the Bill from the beginning that, without a register that records both positive and negative results of innovation, it is very hard to explain to a man from Mars what the point of the Bill is. The Bill is designed to move science forward. If it does not do that, I can only say that I do not know quite what it does. That is its purpose.

I do not speak as an expert on the subject, but at least I can read. The standard text on the subject of science and scientific discovery was written by Professor Popper some years ago—noble Lords will all be familiar with it. In it, he describes the logic of scientific discovery as “reputation by application”. If no record is kept of a case in which a hypothesis has been refuted, then science will not advance in the way that the logic of scientific discovery requires. Therefore, it is, in the words of my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, absolutely essential that there is a register that records both the successful and the unsuccessful results of innovation. In that way, science will advance and the wonderful result will be, as is the purpose of the Bill, to speed up the discovery of cures for horrific diseases.

I also want to reflect on what my noble friend Lord Cormack said. It has been pointed out to me that the work on the Bill will really only start on the day it receives Royal Assent. My noble friend the Minister and the Department of Health will have to hold some kind of conference and undertake some kind of educational programme with the royal colleges in order to achieve the purpose of the Bill, which, as described by the Chief Medical Officer of the United Kingdom, is a culture change. It is designed to change the culture slightly towards innovation and to provide doctors with a relief from the fear of litigation that some doctors have. None of those things will be possible or logical without the register.

I remind your Lordships that Oxford University has offered to maintain the register. It regards it, as I do and as we all do, as an essential part of the Bill. Therefore, it is reassuring to hear from the Minister today that the Government are not saying that the register is something that they are going to review or consider, or that it is something that they regard as perhaps having a benefit. The Minister has said today, for all of us to hear, that the Government commit to the creation of a register that does exactly what Members of your Lordships’ House have said. I am satisfied by what my noble friend the Minister has said because she has said flat-out in Hansard that the Government intend this register to be created—by Oxford, NICE, the Government themselves or whomever—and that the Government intend to bring the relevant people together during the passage of the Bill through the House of Commons in order to resolve the question of how and by whom that register is going to be compiled. I have certainly heard the Minister say that the Government are committed to the register. That is very reassuring to me.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Friday 7th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, before we continue, may I refer noble Lords to the Companion, which suggests that, in debates where there are no formal time limits, contributions are kept to 15 minutes?

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I should like to continue on this subject of the law. I was in the Bland case in the Court of Appeal. As President of the Family Division, at one stage I tried nearly all the permanent vegetative state cases. On the assumption that this Bill is passed, it seems to me critical and essential that the court should have an input. I would prefer the version of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, but, speaking as a former judge, I would say that the version of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, would actually require the judge to take account of all the relevant factors. I would be astonished if the High Court did not wish to confirm that it is satisfied, and that is a high standard. The judge would have the power to require, for instance, a psychiatrist or other medical opinion, if the judge was not satisfied that the patient—we are talking about the rights of the patient—had the full capacity necessary to make this absolutely crucial decision.

As to how the case would be tried, it would likely go before a Family Division registrar. It would go before a High Court judge. In my day, I was able to try cases on the day that the problem came before the High Court and it was able to go to the Court of Appeal on the same day if it was sufficiently urgent. I would expect the President of the Family Division to treat all these cases with the utmost seriousness and would see it as crucial that they be heard as quickly as possible. It would be a matter for the Government of the day as to whether legal aid were given, but in a matter of this absolutely enormous importance as to whether somebody is entitled and has the capacity to make the decision that they wish to end their life, I would think it quite shocking if legal aid were not granted.

[Baroness Neuberger (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, to which I have put my name, and to add to that of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. I agree with almost everything that has been said but, if responsibility is given to the Family Division in some way or other, there might be reason for a ticket system, as happens in serious sex or murder cases. That way, the judges within the Family Division who are going to hear these cases very quickly will have had training in how to look at them and, where necessary, examine the medical evidence in detail. A ticket system and specific training for members of the Family Division in this area would be an improvement on simply saying that it was available to everybody. I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

I had intended to make a short observation but the intervention came from the opposite Front Bench, so I did not find it possible to speak. I rather go with the form of the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, subject to this. It is essential in the Bill that there should be a terminal illness. That is a very important issue which requires determination before the Bill operates. The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, as far as it goes, does not actually require—if I have understood it right, and I am subject to correction like everybody else—the judge to be satisfied that the patient is suffering from a terminal illness. I think that that is a part of the definition that requires to be taken into account.

For my part, I was rather expecting that the detail of the amendment would be settled before Report. In the mean time, what we are really considering is whether, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, said, there should be judicial intervention at all. On that point, I think that a very large proportion of the noble Lords here today are rather in favour of it. However, the precise detail of it is quite important. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that it is right that we should settle on the particular form of the amendment today.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

I very strongly support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. I actually think that the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has a great deal to commend it, and I would have said that to him. However, the point made by the noble and learned Lord is terribly important. Who is going to be the deciding factor on the terminal illness? I believe that this is an enormously important issue for Report—and I am at the moment assuming that the Government will give us time to have Report. I refer to what was said by the noble Lord on the Front Bench. This has got to a point of such importance that I really do not think that it should be addressed at this stage.

[Lord Cormack]

What can possibly be lost by having further conversation and discussion? If the amendment is put to the vote and is carried, other amendments cannot then be discussed because a number of them will fall by the wayside. That is not going to assist our progress in having a full-ranging discussion. I would beg the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, not to press his amendment today so that discussions can take place. I make this suggestion, as I did in my speech, in a wholly constructive manner. I would beg of the noble Lord to heed that, because pre-empting other amendments is not the best way of taking this forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

I would like to add something to what the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, said. In case of permanent vegetative state, it is well known that a number of nurses are not prepared to work with those who are bringing the person’s life to an end. Therefore, it is necessary to place the patient in a permanent vegetative state from whom nutrition and hydration have been withdrawn with those who are prepared to look after that patient, who may sometimes live for a week. This is obviously a much shorter time, but if one takes 41 hours as a possibility, I suspect there will be nurses who will not be prepared to have anything to do with what is happening. That is another point that needs to be taken into account.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Richardson of Calow (CB)]

My Lords, on Amendment 65, on capacity, it is hard to imagine how anybody who has just been told that they have less than six months to live, and who is in such pain that they do not want to continue living, should have absolutely no impairment or disturbance of the mind. This must be part of the condition—but I am not convinced that it would necessarily cloud or impair their judgment. When a person gets close to death, it clarifies the mind rather than clouds it, and gives them much more of an incentive to make decisions that will affect them in a very real way.

On the sense of obligation or duty to others, at the risk of sounding too much like a Methodist minister, there used to be in our Methodist hymnbook a hymn which started:

“Rejoice for a brother deceased;

Our loss is his infinite gain”.

There are occasions when people, feeling not just a duty to others but a delight and a joy in leaving behind a mortal body in order to find a fullness of life—which some of us already experience—will want to do so at the moment of their death.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 66 and 84, since I understand that I cannot speak to Amendment 9. Before I do so, I have one point about Amendment 6 of the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney. I am not terribly happy about it. The written declaration in Amendment 5 of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, ought to be adequate. We have to bear in mind that we are talking about people, according to the wording of the Bill, who have either six months to live or, if the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, is right, three months to live. To expect a second declaration in addition to a first, when one would expect the first declaration to have been seriously considered before it was signed, is probably a step too far and would, in my view, probably be unjust to a patient.

On Amendment 66, I need to explain to the House why on earth I am producing another amendment on capacity. There are three reasons. One is that I am not happy with the word “commensurate”. This is a highly technical point, for which I apologise, but speaking as a lawyer the Mental Capacity Act 2005 talks about capacity. Nowhere, to my knowledge, is any word attached to “capacity” to explain it. One of the most important areas of capacity is the capacity to make a will. Perhaps it is not as important as the capacity to live or die, but it is certainly of great significance to lawyers and to those who witness a will. You should not use the word “commensurate” for a will, and neither should you use it for this matter we are now discussing. However, that is a technical point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tebbit]

Perhaps the noble and learned Baroness can help me with that question of capacity. There are some elements, such as depression, which come and go at various levels. A depressed person may sometimes have capacity and sometimes not. An alcoholic may not have capacity but, on the other hand, he may have it when he sobers up for a while. The same applies to a drug addict, who may or may not have capacity according to how much he has taken. I find that rather difficult to judge against the more permanent and unchanging stages of capacity and incapacity; for example, in a patient with Down’s syndrome, whose capacity would be limited but probably more or less unchanging, or somebody in the later stages of Parkinson’s disease, where that mental capacity was beginning to go but could only get worse. I am a little puzzled as to how one would make the decisions between those varying states.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

If I may be anecdotal, as other noble Lords have been, my mother died of multiple sclerosis in her early sixties. There was a point at which I, as a young lawyer, realised that she no longer had, in my view, the capacity to make decisions. However, that was at a very late stage of her illness.

If the doctor is not satisfied because someone is a drug addict or has been an alcoholic or has, for instance, a high degree of anorexia as a young person and is saying that they want to die, those are points at which a doctor should be saying, “I’m not quite certain whether he or she has capacity”. That is why I suggest in my amendment that, unless they are satisfied, they should pass it on to someone who has the expertise, who would then, as a psychiatrist, look at whether the person actually has the capacity. Okay, we are talking about someone with three to six months to live but, if they do not have the capacity to make this incredibly important decision, they should not be allowed to do so. That is how I would see it, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit.

[Lord Winston]

I thank the noble and learned Baroness for giving way, but would she not agree that sometimes people who have capacity and say that they wish to die, as indeed my mother did, may then change their mind some months later, quite unexpectedly?

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

Yes, that seems to me to present one of the problems with the Bill.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, may I offer something at this stage? The ground has been well worked in the past and I have here some of the hearings that took place 10 years ago, when we discussed this matter. The whole question of the psychiatrist was raised then. Again and again, in discussing competence, it is the psychiatrist who seems to be claiming that someone lacks it. Making a judgment about people near to death is very difficult. Some 25% to 40% of patients at the time of diagnosis, and a similar percentage at other times on the cancer journey, suffer from depression or despair, but those conditions can be reversed. It depends on when you take the decision. Indeed, a neurologist suggested that in some conditions the whole issue of cognitive impairment must be taken note of. For example, patients to the lay person might appear relatively normal but could have severe cognitive impairment and therefore be unable to give informed decisions in such an area.

The training is not just for the people that these provisions have in mind. Once we move the debate, as we have consistently through this day, into the hands of experts, we are removing from ourselves the recognition that the experience of death and dying belongs as much to the non-experts as it does to the experts. With great timidity, I have stood up to speak at this moment, having heard in this morning’s debate from some of the leading lawyers and medical people in the land, and from people with a long experience of public life. I wonder whether it is true, for example, that a judge is, at the end of the day, the person in whom we can deposit all our confidence.

I remember the debates in my childhood that took place around the movement towards the abolition of capital punishment. You have a judge and a jury in that case, counsel for the defence and the prosecution, due process and forensic evidence—justifiable or not. You have the whole process of the law brought to bear on one case and one person, guilty or not guilty. The reason we went forward to abolish capital punishment was because of the possibility of an error of judgment—that with all that happening we might have got it wrong. As a simple lay person, I simply want to say that in this area it is infinitely more likely that we might get it wrong. It is for that reason that I stand against this Bill: because of the high possibility of getting it wrong, even when judges and the top medical people are involved.

My life sees me alongside dying people from first news to last rites and, indeed, beyond last rites—I have dealt with the people with whom one has to deal when they feel that they have not done everything that they might have done for mum. These are unhealed wounds that pastoral people have to deal with on and on, beyond the moment of death.

To think of the autonomy of the person as if that alone constitutes where this debate centres is, in my experience, utterly wrong. Consequently, when I saw the amendment that refers to,

“capacity to make the decision”,

I wondered whether the capacity we were talking about was that which pertained to the decision-makers rather than to the person dying. This is an immensely complicated area and it seems to me that we must question these rather forensic points that are being made about the capacity of this person, that person or the other person. Death and dying are individual in every case, and sometimes a friend can do more good than an expert.

Economy: House Prices

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Thursday 3rd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, there is always a lag between planning permissions and housing starts. If we take the last two quarters for which I have figures, there were planning permissions for 52,534 houses in Q4 2013 and 32,000 starts. In Q1 2014 there were 43,000 permissions and 36,000 starts.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

Does the Minister think that anything should be done about the special position of London?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, clearly London is in a special position. The population of London rose, I believe, by 108,000 in the past year and this is going to require a significantly higher level of housebuilding. The mayor has plans to build 40,000 new homes a year in London—bearing in mind that in 2009 there were 14,000 new homes built in London. With the population increasing very rapidly there is clearly going to be a long period of stress in terms of housing in London.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Scotland of Asthal (Lab)]

My Lords, I support both amendments in this group, not least because guidance in this area is critical. Noble Lords will know that the previous Government produced stringent guidance. However, it is not just a question of producing guidance but of implementing and monitoring it to ensure that it is effective in raising standards and offering greater protection for the victims and survivors of this most pernicious form of abuse. What assessment has been carried out of the current guidance and of any implementation strategy that the Government are minded to put in place if this amendment is accepted, which I hope the noble Lord is about to tell us he energetically supports?

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of a forced marriage commission which is currently hearing evidence. An interesting aspect of that is that we went to visit the Karma Nirvana organisation just outside Leeds and the victims to whom we spoke were all very anxious that forced marriage should be criminalised. I have had my doubts about that. I took part, with the noble Lord, Lord Lester, in the original initiative on this issue, which led, I am very glad to say, to a government Bill being produced some years ago under the previous Government. I know that the noble Lord is very opposed to the criminalisation of forced marriage. However, there is no doubt that all the victims to whom members of the commission spoke considered that this was an essential next step, which I thought was very interesting.

I am very concerned about how the immigration authorities, or emigration authorities, can cope with this problem. I talked to an immigration official at Gatwick and asked him what he did about girls going out to Pakistan with their parents and those coming back, or a young man coming into this country, where a girl is waiting with her parents to welcome him as her intended husband. The official told me that he had spoken to these girls on many occasions. One such girl was waiting for an intended husband to come through the airport and the official took her aside and asked her whether she wanted to marry that man. She replied, “No, I do not”. When he asked her whether it was a forced marriage, she replied, “Yes, it is”. He said that he could stop the forced marriage by preventing the young man entering the country but that the girl would have to declare publicly that she was being forced into a marriage. The girl replied, “I cannot do so in front of my parents”. This is a major problem. We know that a lot of girls and some young men, many of whom are under 18, are being forced into marriage in Pakistan, Bangladesh and India and, indeed, other places. This is by no means only a Muslim problem. It is also a Sikh problem and occasionally a Jewish problem, but it is a problem across the world. One of the major problems in this regard I have been told about concerns disabled young people, particularly those with learning difficulties, as the parents think they are doing the young woman concerned a favour by marrying her off as she will be protected for the rest of her life. Nevertheless, she does not want the marriage and this is a very real problem.

I very much support Amendment 5, particularly because I think it is time that everyone, from the Government through to the Department for Education and schools in particular, should do as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, suggests and treat this as a child protection issue. If you force a girl or boy to marry under the age of 18, particularly under 16, when they do not want to marry, this is a very real child protection issue. However, another extremely worrying issue arises. These girls—it affects particularly the girls—are being married in other parts of the world with an Islamic ceremony. That ceremony is not registered overseas and it is not registered in this country. Therefore, the girl is not married according to English law. The husband can divorce her under Islamic law and she can obtain no redress in this country for herself. She does not have to be married to get financial help for her children but she gets no financial help whatever for herself because she is not married according to English law. Interestingly, there is a law that gives the second wife in a polygamous marriage some financial assistance.

I have not tabled an amendment in relation to forced marriages that are not considered valid marriages, but I hope that the Government will look at that as there is no shortage of women in this country and abroad who are not considered married according to English law although their marriage ceremonies are considered perfectly adequate in some communities. I particularly underline what the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said about child protection. I am not at all sure whether Amendments 5A and 6 are entirely necessary, although the Government should certainly look at them, but Amendment 5 is vital.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My noble friend Lady Berridge is not in her place at the moment, but I know, from a very short conversation I had with her yesterday, that her Amendment 11 is intended to address the second problem to which the noble and learned Baroness referred. When I first read it, I thought it was simply about annulment but she tells me that it is, in fact, about property.