Cannabis: Medicinal Use

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

What I would say is that it is left up to the doctors, who are able to ask for it to be prescribed on the NHS. In some cases, that has clearly not been accepted and that is why people have to go privately, but the best way to solve this problem is for the industry to come forward and go through trials. The offer is open, the NIHR has money available, but for some reason the companies prefer to sell it unlicensed.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, is there not a way around this? It seems to me extraordinary that we cannot cut through this.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

In simple terms, I completely agree. There should be a way around this and I will take this back to the department. In fact, I was quite provocative when I was getting advice on this, but I have also been warned that I am conflicted on this issue, so I will try to push it as long as I am not seen as being in conflict. It is very difficult, but I want to do the right thing.

Covid-19: Charitably Funded Hospices

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I completely endorse my noble friend’s comments. Hospices are often the hubs for huge community efforts to raise money and to create volunteer support for those who are at the end of their lives. They are hugely valued in the healthcare system. The challenge that they face at the moment is recognised and we will meet our responsibilities to them.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]]

I am the vice-president of Hospiscare Exeter. I will follow on from what the noble Lord, Lord Howard, just said. Despite what the Minister has been saying to us, I wonder whether Her Majesty’s Government are sufficiently aware of the extent to which hospices relieve the NHS and social care of the need to look after many terminally ill people by looking after them at home. Hospices dramatically need more financial support to continue with this terribly important initiative.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I assure the noble and learned Baroness that we understand absolutely the contribution of hospices, the value for money that they represent, the role that they play in communities and the incredible sensitivity with which they handle end-of-life and palliative care. I pay tribute to the contribution made by the noble and learned Baroness to the Living Well Dying Well charity and to Hospiscare. It is the contribution of people such as the noble and learned Baroness to the hospice care movement that has made it such a powerful and sensitive supporter of people at their time of most urgent need.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 2nd September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I will raise two issues, the first being organ harvesting. I propose to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. Like other noble Lords, I am very concerned by the activities in China. There are other countries where organs, particularly kidneys, are also sold, and we should not be allowing them to be used in this country.

Secondly, I support the constitutional concerns of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, especially with regard to the proposed use of negative rather than affirmative procedures. I am also very concerned about the creating and adjusting of criminal offences by regulation and I would strongly support sunset clauses.

Access to Palliative Care and Treatment of Children Bill [HL]

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 2nd reading (Hansard)
Friday 7th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a vice-president of Hospiscare Exeter, mid and east Devon, which works successfully to keep terminally ill people at home, usually to the last week—often, they die at home. We are appealing for money to make this a 24-hour service; currently, it is daily and we hope to do it overnight. The ideal situation for our hospice is where most people die at home.

The hospice work is wonderful. I strongly support the Bill put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, except in one matter to which I shall come in a moment. This Bill has absolutely nothing to do with assisted suicide, despite the powerful speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. I put it on record yet again that I do not agree with either of them, and I strongly support the way in which the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, puts this matter forward. I belong to her cohort—I ought to say that because I do not think that the issue of assisted suicide is helpful in our discussions on this Bill.

I entirely support Clause 1 but I am concerned about Clause 2 and an issue that has not been raised, which I shall explain in a moment. Despite what the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has just said, mediation is an excellent idea. It works in family matters. These cases come before the family courts. I cannot see why we cannot try mediation. The Government might put a little money forward for a pilot scheme, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has recommended. I support what he said about that.

As a family judge and then President of the Family Division, I tried numerous, probably several hundred, cases in the years that I sat as a family judge. Those cases were sensitive and often tragic—in the two about which we have heard today, my heart goes out to the families concerned; I have to say to them that I lost a son aged 50 last year and, although he was adult, it was as painful as if he had been a child. For a son or daughter to be cut off as a baby or a young child must be absolutely appalling, and I really feel for them. But it is important when looking at this Bill to remember that the Children Act 1989 makes it the job of the judge trying a child case to regard the welfare and best interests of the child as paramount.

I recognise the trauma for families of going to the court and, I have to say, the great distress of many doctors who are faced with parents with whom they cannot agree. If it is necessary to go to the court, there is a problem for me with Clause 2(4), which says that “the court shall assume”—not the medical profession—

“unless the contrary is clearly established, that any medical treatment proposals put forward by any person holding parental responsibility for the child are in the child’s best interests.”

If I were sitting as a judge, I would feel that that constrained me from the utmost flexibility that I would need in deciding what, in my judgment, the best interests of the child were. That is what really worries me about this clause. I understand the motivation, but I wonder whether the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has really put her mind to how a judge would try such a case. “Clearly established” is a higher standard of proof than the first-past-the-post, more than 50%. It is not as high as a criminal requirement, but it would require a standard that would lead me, if I were sitting as a judge, to wonder whether I had the power to say that I did not really think that the parents had got it right.

It is very important to remember, as the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, was telling us, that some parents are desperate to keep alive their seriously ill child with the most appalling birth injuries or distortions—we have some like that; the doctors here will know what I am talking about. I have had endless cases of children with absolutely no chance of living beyond two whom the parents wished to keep, and the older children were left at home with somebody while the parents sat at the beside until the child died. These are very sad cases but if they have absolutely no chance of survival, it may be that the doctors have got it right, and that is where the judge has to come in. That would not be the point at which I would want parents to put forward a medical treatment proposal. If it is an individual matter, one would hope it would be cleared by mediation, but I am very concerned about cases where the court has to make the decision.

One also has to bear in mind that it is not just about the parents. There are teenage children with extraordinarily serious medical problems who ought to be heard. They are not covered in Clause 2(4). We really must bear in mind that children—including young children—are people, not packages, as I said when I did the Cleveland child abuse inquiry. They really have to be consulted, particularly if the parents’ proposal would put them through a great deal of pain and discomfort, in order to reach a stage where a successful outcome may be less than 50% likely. I have had teenage children say, “I don’t want it; let me die in peace”, but the parents say, “No, no, you must keep the child alive”. This is a problem on which the judge must decide, and Clause 2(4) must not inhibit their exercising their discretion as to what is in the best interests of the child as they see it. That is what worries me about this clause.

I would be very interested in discussing the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, with her. I am not sure I agree with it, but I did not really have the chance to consider it properly. At the moment, I have to say, I would like to see Clause 2(4) deleted in its entirety. Maybe before Committee, we can consider something that does not impede the absolute discretion of the judge to make what he or she thinks is the right decision. With that one reservation, I strongly support the Bill and hope that it goes forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

It has been seen that this duty would contradict the other legislation, as it stands, where it allows for autonomy for the CCGs. We have already expressed that we are happy to discuss this further with the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, to explain it. On the question regarding prescription medications, I was going on to explain—

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but, following on from an earlier question, would it be possible to have a more wide-ranging discussion and invite other people to attend, so that the NHS team, plus the Minister and the Department for Health and Social Care, could meet them to discuss this? Currently, I think the Government have got it wrong.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

Given that this discussion would be with the lead Minister for Social Care and the lawyers, I am very happy to make that commitment on their behalf. I am sure that we could drill down into the legal detail of exactly where the conflict occurs to understand that issue. Perhaps I might go on to explain some of the reasons why we think that some of the provisions have been overtaken in trying to improve palliative care, subsequent to the previous presentation of the Bill. That may be reassuring as well and might help in the debate. Would that be helpful? I will also explain the concerns on the requirement around prescriptions; that was my intent in progressing.

The issue around this representing an expansion of CCGs’ liability for the cost of medicines is that it would encompass the medicines needs of all privately funded hospice residents as well. As it is written, there is a concern. It arguably gives special treatment to one group of privately funded health service users over everybody else with some form of privately funded healthcare. This would require CCGs to fund the cost of drugs, which also risks CCGs choosing to stop funding beds through contracts. If that were to be an unintended consequence, it needs to be considered carefully. I am sure that there will be further debate on this.

This Government are committed to ensuring that we improve end-of-life care and recognise many of the issues that have been raised. They published an end of life care choice commitment in 2016, which I know has been debated previously, in response to an independent review of choice, and it sets out what everyone should expect from their care and the actions taken to reduce variation, which has also been raised here. It also sought to make more personalised care a reality. Since its publication, NHS England, health system partners and stakeholders have worked through the national End of Life Care Programme Board to provide more data, more tools and more evidence, support and guidance to local areas to highlight unwarranted variation, to improve policy development and to provide better commissioning. The end-of-life care atlas of variation, published by Public Health England, highlights variation across a broad range of measures and indicators such as place of death, admissions, the proportion of patients and identification recorded on a GP register. This allows CCGs to be benchmarked across services against one another and to draw on advice, best practice and guidance to improve service quality. This is a significant improvement and promises to be helpful.

This has led to new investment to support the NHS long-term plan, with new actions to help drive further improvement in end-of-life care and support choice. They include accelerating the rollout of personal health budgets, with up to 200,000 people, including those with palliative care needs, benefiting by 2023-24 and rolling out of training to help staff identify, and provide care for, those in their last year of life. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, wanted some numbers on that. The latest available show that more than 600 doctors are qualified in palliative medicine—this is almost 200 more since 2010; there are 1,300 nurses and health visitors working in palliative medicine, which is over 300 more since 2010, and the people plan will have a holistic approach to how we can attract clinicians of all the different levels into the harder-to-recruit areas. We have discussed that a number of times over the Dispatch Box, so I shall not go into more detail now.

A number of Peers asked about funding. We are making £4.5 billion of new investment to fund expanded community multidisciplinary teams, providing targeted support to those identified as having the greatest risks and needs. That is important because the majority of palliative care is provided in the community, as the noble Baroness will know, and it is important that we make sure that GP and community care is properly funded. On the £25 million announced by the Prime Minister in August, this was provided to CCGs in October 2019. It has already been allocated to hospices. The 2019 manifesto set out a commitment to build and provide further support for this, which I hope reassures your Lordships. The reason that the money was provided for hospices and palliative care services was that, as was rightly said, hospices do not exist in all areas, so the intention is to make sure that we can drive down variation and improve services across the system.

In addition, we are upgrading NHS support to all care home residents with the enhanced health in care homes model rolled out across the whole country over the coming decade. We are also making end-of-life care one of the new quality improvement areas for the revised GP quality and outcomes framework to support early identification and personalised care planning. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, asked me specifically about those who wish to die at home. We know that most patients express a preference to die at home. Currently, around 47% of patients die in hospital. This has improved since 2007, when the figure was 56%, but it is important to note that there are occasions when admission to hospital may not be preventable because, as a situation progresses, some patients may want to be in hospital as death approaches because they feel safer at that point. In other cases, the family or care giver may not be able to cope at that point, but we are working hard to improve choice.

I turn to Clause 2, relating to the treatment of children, and the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, my noble friend Lord Ribeiro, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, my noble friend Lady Stroud and a number of others. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has set out proposals calling for mediation in the tragic cases where there is a disagreement in the giving or withdrawing of any form of medical treatment for a child with a life-limiting illness. Decisions around withdrawal of treatment are never easy and it is difficult for any of us to imagine the pain and suffering that families in such situations go through. At the heart of each of these difficult cases, as the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said, is the well-being of the child. That must remain everybody’s focus. It is important that we do all we can to ensure that families and medical experts communicate and, where possible, reach agreement on the best interests of the child. My deepest sympathies are of course with any family facing such a difficult decision and trying to navigate the challenges of our healthcare system in such a distressing moment.

Mediation can and does play a vital role in facilitating better communications and creating a space where voices on both sides of a dispute can be heard in a non-adversarial way, which is of course what we all want to achieve. It is certainly important that the legal framework is considered as part of this. The evidence shows that, unfortunately, it does not provide a solution in every dispute, particularly those most serious cases where there is a breakdown in communication or trust between the clinicians in the hospital and the parents, which may lead to animosity and lengthy court battles. It is incumbent on us all to do what we can to prevent these difficult and sad cases reaching court in the first place, which is extremely distressing for all parties—we have seen those cases.

The Government are very supportive of the many excellent mediation schemes available, including those run by charities and the private sector, and we pay tribute to those who run them. We are not sure that legislation is the answer to making sure that they exist everywhere. They are thankfully rare cases, but none the less extremely tragic. We believe that the lack of statutory prescription so far means that mediation can be tailored specifically to meet the individual needs of families and their children, clinicians and hospitals, reflecting the unique circumstances of each case. We are working with NHS England and the Nuffield Council on Bioethics to look at the effectiveness of mediation and of clinical ethics committees in managing disagreements and at how this could be improved. At this time, there does not appear to be a strong call from experts in the field to make mediation or clinical ethics committees a mandatory requirement. My honourable friend the Minister of State for Care has agreed to attend the Nuffield Council on Bioethics round-table discussion on disagreements in the care of critically ill children. This will bring together high-level health policymakers aiming to agree a set of actions reflecting what NHS leaders should do and further support the creation of healthcare environments that foster good collaborative relationships between parents and healthcare staff.

We absolutely believe that healthcare professionals have a duty to act in the best interests of their patients. When doctors and families do not agree about the best interests of a child, as in the tragic cases we have seen in recent years, the courts can be asked to make an independent judgment on the best interests of the child. We are concerned about the issues raised and that legislating in the way set out in the Bill would create a presumption that, unless it is clearly established not to be the case, the views of the parents represent the child’s best interests. There may be instances where this is not necessarily the case. This would be a significant departure from the current situation, which requires the court to make no assumptions and to consider the child’s best interests with an open mind. Establishing a default presumption would override the court’s sole focus on the interests of the child.

In almost every case of dispute, families and clinicians are able to reach agreement. The rare occasions when cases end up in court are picked up and amplified by the media. They are heartbreaking, which is perhaps why they appear more common than they are. Legislating for those rare but difficult cases would not be appropriate at this time. Our efforts are best directed at ways to avoid them in the first instance. My honourable friend the Minister of State for Care would like to offer to meet the Gard family, or representatives of the Charlie Gard Foundation, to discuss how we can focus our efforts on this important area, if that would be welcomed.

To conclude, I would like to thank the noble Baroness for raising the important issues in the Bill and every noble Lord who has contributed to this significant debate. However, I must advise that the Government have expressed their reservations and will move to oppose.

Healthcare: Brain Tumours

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

We are working to deliver earlier diagnosis to improve survival of 75% of cancers by 2028. We are also working to improve the one-year survival rates of adults diagnosed since 2016 over the next 10 years. We are also making sure that we improve the commitment of the £40 million over the next five years. I hope that answers the noble Baroness’s question.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I am a vice-president of a hospice in Exeter which is raising money to provide 24-hour care at home. Does the Minister recognise how important it is for those in palliative care, particularly those with brain cancers, to be able to spend the rest of their lives—and die—at home?

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

The noble and learned Baroness is quite right that people should have a choice in end-of-life care. The long-term plan recognises that we need to improve that choice and the quality of discussions around it. That is at the heart of the drive to improve personal health budgets and help staff identify personalised care planning for end-of-life care. I hope that reassures the noble and learned Baroness that this is seen as a top priority in end-of-life care planning.

Social Workers: Recruitment and Retention

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Thursday 16th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

My noble friend is absolutely right that social workers do vital jobs and that it is an attractive career choice. More than 4,000 students enrol in social work courses every year, and we have introduced a fast-track graduate programme that has brought 2,000 more into the social work programme. However, it will work only if we retain those within the system, so we have developed some post-qualifying standards for social workers at key stages of their career to create a consistent, practice-based career progression. In particular, we have introduced the assessed year in the workforce to provide that key level of support in the first year, so that those who experience the shock of the caseload in their first year have the support that they need to remain in the profession and develop the key skills to be able to manage that workload.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, as a former family judge, I have worked very closely with social workers. Will the Minister consider the aspect of lack of respect and status? If they were given a better status, they would be much easier to recruit and retain.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

The noble and learned Baroness makes an excellent point. Social workers play a crucial role in our society and should have the respect and status they deserve. One way in which that can be achieved is through the increasing professional standards being brought into the service. As I have said, these include key reforms such as improving leadership and providing high-quality continuous professional development, through which we seek to improve the quality of social workers’ professional lives while raising standards and recognition for the profession.

Nurses: Tuition Fees

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I shall certainly write to my noble friend, and indeed all noble Lords, about the proportion of the write-off. Let us remember, however, why the student loans system exists. It exists because those people who earn enough over the course of their working lives end up paying more than those who do not. Therefore, if somebody has gone into nursing but has then gone on to work in another profession, earning more money and being able to pay it off, it is equitable that they pay it off. That was the policy of the Labour Government, and it has been adopted by the Conservative Government precisely on the point of equity. It is only right that the loan is written off for those who have not earned enough but, for those who have earned enough, that they pay it off.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, will the Government reconsider the issue of bursaries?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I obviously have not been clear enough; I thought that I had. The answer to that is that we are not considering that at the moment.

Nursing and Midwifery: Student Applications

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness makes an important point about attrition. It is one of the reasons that, within the new package of support, there is extra support for living expenses, both for mature students, who feature particularly in the case of nursing, and in cases of hardship.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, has the Minister seen the fifth annual State of Maternity Services Report from the Royal College of Midwives—I attended its launch this morning—in which there are very careful data about the fact that too many midwives are aged over 50, a considerable number are over 60 and there are not sufficient to take their places? The Government should worry about this.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am grateful to the noble and learned Baroness for bringing up that issue. I have not seen the report, but I shall certainly look at it. It is true that, across the public sector, there is an issue with an ageing workforce. To some extent, that will be addressed by the fact that we will all be working until we are older. The Government will also be introducing increases to the number of training places, which was a critical reason for moving from a bursary to a fee-based system. The bursary system involved a cap; we are now able to release that cap and bring more numbers through in the training.

Mental Health: Children’s Services

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Thursday 19th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I do not think that anybody disagrees with the scale of the problem that we are dealing with, but I do not believe—and the Government do not believe—that having an NHS in which politicians can direct pots of money is the right approach. These are clinical decisions that need to be made locally. It is not true to say that there is no pressure going on—that is what NHS England is for, to make sure that CCGs are committing not just on mental health but on other health issues to spend the money and meet the targets that they are committed to meeting.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

Does the Minister accept that to start looking at mental health issues in secondary school is too late? There is no doubt a shortage in terms of looking at it at primary school level, but it is extremely important. The earlier that children are looked at for their problems, the better.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble and learned Baroness may know that over the past five years I have been setting up primary free schools, with an explicit focus on developing character, well-being and resilience in young people, so I could not agree with her more—it has to start early. Indeed, it does not have to start in primary; it must start in early years and, of course, it must start with parenting and giving parents the skills that they need to teach resilience in their children.

NHS: Unsafe Hospital Discharges

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

The noble Baroness is right. Most well-run hospitals will have integrated discharge teams comprising people who work in the community, social care workers and people who work in the hospital. However, the fact is that over the last 20 years, with the benefit of hindsight, too much resource has gone into acute hospitals and not enough into primary care and community care. You cannot wish into being lots of district nurses overnight. There are some parts of the country—I will pick on Northumbria and Salford, for example—where serious integration is now going on, with hospitals also managing adult social care, GPs and community care.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

May I pick the Minister up on one point? He said that there were one or two examples, but my understanding is that this is right across the country.

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

The noble and learned Baroness is right, up to a point. I said one or two because the PSHO report focuses on nine individual cases. In so far as they are representative of behaviour across the country, they are important, but I want to put on record that the vast majority of hospitals the vast majority of the time are getting their discharge procedures right and are doing an outstanding job.