Women’s Safety

Baroness Browning Excerpts

Wednesday 8th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I agree with almost everything that the noble Baroness has said. I am delighted to confirm that the Government will support the Protection from Sex-based Harassment in Public Bill, advanced by the right honourable Greg Clark, which would make public sexual harassment a specific offence. It provides that if someone commits an offence under the existing Section 4A of the Public Order Act 1986—that is, intentionally causing harassment, alarm or distress—and does so because of the victim’s sex then they could obtain a higher sentence of two years rather than six months.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

My Lords, what monitoring is undertaken by the Home Office of those who have been convicted of either sexual offences or domestic abuse who subsequently go on to change their names?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I know this issue has been raised in the House of Commons recently in a 10-minute rule Bill. It is certainly a matter that the Home Office has under review, and it may be something that we hear more about later.

Prostitution

Baroness Browning Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, it is fair to say that it is the oldest profession, so I suspect that we will never get rid of it entirely, which is of course regrettable. In terms of poverty, our strategy—with all the things that are being done at the moment to alleviate that—is fairly clear.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

Some 25 years ago, I co- chaired the Women’s National Commission as the government co-chair, in which over 100 women’s organisations were represented. As I am sure my noble friend the Minister knows, this is not a new problem, whatever the state of the economy. Among those over-100 women’s organisations, there was everything from Army wives to the English Collective of Prostitutes, so I feel that I have a little insight into some of their problems. One of the biggest difficulties for any Government wanting to make changes here—and I do support such changes—is finding the right premises, because, to put it bluntly, nobody wants one next door. If my noble friend is serious about making some progress on this, does he agree that the Government should address that problem?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right. However, this is an evolving problem, and there are a number of practices that take place now that would not have happened when she was involved in this subject herself, including online activities and so on. Again, I do not think that it is appropriate for me to comment on housing, but I understand where she is coming from on that subject.

Police: Appointments in PCC Offices

Baroness Browning Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord makes some very good points, but they are slightly above my pay grade, as I am sure he will appreciate. There are 39 PCCs across England and Wales, with three mayors exercising similar functions; the City of London Police has separate set of rules and regs. In the main and for the most part, most of those people are doing a superb job and are held accountable by the public who elect them.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

I advise my noble friend that I was the Minister who put police and crime commissioners on to the statute book in this House, opposed by all the Benches opposite at the time. I ask a question that has been asked previously in courts around the country: is this what Parliament intended? I do not think that Parliament ever did intend the current problem, clearly identified by my noble friend Lord Lexden, to occur, and I advise my noble friend the Minister to do all he can to ensure that a cross-party meeting takes place as soon as possible.

Investigatory Powers Bill

Baroness Browning Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Bill. The amount of scrutiny it has received has been such a help in producing the Bill before your Lordships tonight. I was pleased to have the opportunity to serve on the Joint Committee, which was so ably chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. I was particularly pleased—comment has been made about this tonight—by the way in which another place dealt with the Bill. One of my permanent gripes is that we in this Chamber often receive legislation which is imperfect not because nobody at the other end was interested in it but because the iniquitous guillotine fell and huge chunks of legislation passed totally unscrutinised from another place to this Chamber. I opposed this vigorously when it came in many years ago—as Members will remember—but lost. I feel that if we are about anything in this Chamber, we are about scrutiny, but that applies also to another place. So it was not just that they spent a lot of time on it but that they looked at every line. I hope that perhaps future Bills will emulate that procedure.

On the Joint Committee we had the opportunity for a visit to the Metropolitan Police intelligence bureau. One of the things that struck me was that although a lot of our conversation was about how the Bill would help with serious organised crime and terrorism, we saw things in practice there—the noble Lord, Lord Evans, just touched on this—such as how having quick and timely access to data can help in ways that had not occurred to me. For example, when the police are notified of somebody who has gone missing who is a potential suicide case, or when a child goes missing and there is concern about them, access to telephones—a lot of children walk around with telephones and electronic devices—to be able to find out in a timely way where they are and who they have called saves lives, apart from the bigger issues that the Bill concentrates on.

Of course, among the people who came before us to give evidence, we heard from the judges. I support the double lock; it is a very good move forward to reassure the public and politicians. It is one of those measures that is perhaps tucked in the pocket just in case, at some point, this country could not rely on its politicians. I believe that we can rely on our politicians but—who knows?—maybe one day we will not be able to.

I was worried about the training of judges. Are these judges really going to get to grips with this subject, which is not something that they are dealing with every day? But I was reassured. I notice that my noble friend Lord Carlile of Berriew is not in his place at the moment, but I will draw to his attention that I said this. The judges reassured us that they would look at each warrant, case by case, and apply the rules of judicial review to give some reassurance on the way that they would approach their side of it.

It is also very important, perhaps more for the other end than for this end, that the Home Secretary can appear at the Dispatch Box and be questioned about individual warrants—something that a judge cannot be required to do. That is such an important part of our democratic process in this House.

Already mentioned is the way that technology moves and the way that our security services have to keep one step ahead all the time. However, there is another ingredient in the mix where our intelligence and security services need to feel that they are always one step ahead, and that is to do with political will. The intelligence and security services need to feel that, in these two Chambers, there is the political will to enable them to be able to access the sort of information and methodology that they need. As former Prime Minister Baroness Thatcher said, back in the 1980s, terrorists only have to be lucky once. It is against that backdrop that our security services need the support of this House to keep things well balanced. We must make sure that we give them every opportunity to keep us safe.

There are measures that have already been mentioned that we will need to look at. I know that my noble friend the Minister will be as forthcoming as he can be on the issues that have been raised about lawyers and journalists.

Finally, another area on which we took evidence in the Joint Committee, which has already been touched on, is the situation with the communications service providers. My noble friend Lady Harding spoke on behalf of what I regard as quite a large service provider. But we also took evidence from some of the smaller service providers, which expressed concern about the capital costs involved in this. So I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us in Committee. It would not be a satisfactory outcome if, when we were finished with the Bill, it was public knowledge that some small companies were not up to speed and up to the mark in terms of people who might use their services. That would leave a gaping hole in our security. Just think what would happen if we ensured that the larger communications service providers could meet the standards required under the legislation but, somehow, those who wish us harm could go elsewhere.

Psychoactive Substances Bill [HL]

Baroness Browning Excerpts

Tuesday 9th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. I begin by paying tribute to the work that Norman Baker did at the Home Office in this area. For a very short while, I had responsibility at the Home Office for this policy area, and I can sense the frustration of many Home Office Ministers faced with trying to catch up. That is how it feels—you are running to catch up with something that is for ever disappearing over the horizon: the technology used in the manufacture of these drugs, which stays just a few steps ahead of the law not just in this country but worldwide. As legislators, it is very difficult to know just what to do to feel that you have at least got ahead of it.

This is a very important area. The expert panel whose report Mr Baker accepted,

“indicated that ‘after years of stable and declining drug use, the emergence of NPS has been a “game changer’””.

That is just how it feels: a game changer. What can we do? The panel considered the existing legislative response, including the use of the temporary class drug orders that I took through this House—it seems only yesterday but it was quite some time ago—inadequate to keep up with the challenge before us.

I hate the term “legal highs”. I always hated it. It is dangerous. The composition of these drugs is many and varied. A high percentage of them contain substances that have already been criminalised, or that could be dangerous if consumed by humans or even animals. Many contain pharmaceutical drugs, which normally a doctor would prescribe, that have been obtained illegally on the black market. They are marketed in attractive packaging under attractive names, but even then there is no guarantee that if you buy a particular product one week, what is in it will be in it again the following week.

And in some of those packages will be killers. We have talked about numbers today—we always come down to statistics—but, as many other Home Office Ministers have done, I have spoken to parents who have lost children and young people through legal highs and, whether the figure is 50, 60 or 100, one is too many. I understand that the latest figures up to 2013—perhaps the Minister will correct me if I have got this wrong—were 60 in England and Wales and another 60 in Scotland, where the figures are aggregated separately. These figures are going up all the time, as is the use of these drugs. The problem is not just deaths, though of course they are the worst thing. We know from surveys done in Scotland that the use of these drugs can lead to psychotic states and unpredictable behaviours, attendance at A&E—I hope the Minister can reassure Members of the House who have raised this issue, but I understand that since the Irish system was put in place they have noticed a reduction in A&E attendances—sudden increase in body temperature and heart rate, coma, risk to internal organs, confusion leading to aggression and violence and intense comedowns that can cause users to feel suicidal. As the Minister in the Commons, the right honourable Mike Penning, has said, this is Russian roulette.

This is what we are trying to deal with in this legislation. I hear from my noble friend Baroness Hollins, sat on my right, and from others around the House, concerns about some of the detail, but unless we can collectively agree to take this forward we will be left with a game of Russian roulette out on our streets, in the clubs and in the many social areas where many young people gather—the problem affects not just young people but it affects them in particular—and there is nothing worse for sullying a life chance than to take one of these drugs and get the wrong one.

I thought a very good point was made about how police officers are going to know whether or not the substance they are looking at is a legal high. I hope that as the Bill progresses, the Minister will reassure the House that this issue can be addressed in a way that gives the police the power to do the job they have to do without having to be involved in a lot of bureaucracy, and ensures that they know they are confident in what they are dealing with. We have to find solutions to these problems because, if we do not, we will have moved no further forward while all the time the technology and the wicked people out there are beating us all to it.

On a lighter note, I would like to make an aside. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and I have known each other for many years, although to my certain knowledge he has never given me any flowers. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, also raised the question, which was quite new to me, of someone giving you a bouquet of flowers and their aroma somehow sending you into—I do not know what. I have received many flowers in my lifetime and have always taken a rather Constance Spry approach to them, worrying about how to arrange them, but they have never made me swoon. I say to the Minister, though, that I hope the Bill is not going to include chocolate. I am being facetious about a serious subject, although I have to say to noble Lords around the Chamber—and I am afraid it is mainly the gentlemen—that if they think to make a woman swoon they should give her a bunch of flowers, they are all on the wrong track. Men have tried for centuries to find out what will make women swoon and are still nowhere near finding out.

I agree with what has been said today about the need to address drug and alcohol abuse. We still do not put enough resources into dealing with this, and we do not reach the ultimate conclusion that I feel is the way forward. Following their treatment, we often just leave people at that point, but they need to be moved on from treatment to recovery. That takes much longer and requires a lot more resources, and it sometimes requires various innovative approaches.

I say to my noble friend that although I realise that the substance of the Bill is ultimately not about that, we are talking about drugs—substances that are potentially addictive. I hope that the Government will not forget that when people become addicted—whether to these sorts of substances or others—there are solutions; but it is about having the will to press on and push people to the point where a difference is made to their lives.

Other matters have been raised, such as the medical research implications. I have to say that I have not read in the paperwork available to the House that medical research will be impaired, but I hope that as the Bill progresses my noble friend will be able to reassure us on that. None of us wants the Bill to be so broad that it impairs genuine, legitimate medical research, but because of the nature of these psychoactive drugs, it has to be broad. Once you start narrowing it down, you lose momentum in dealing with the problem. I hope that my noble friend will reassure the House on that as we go through.

I welcome the Bill. It may not be perfect but it deals with a very difficult problem, and I wish it Godspeed in its passage through this House. I am sure that my noble friend will steer it through with the judgment and wisdom he has shown during the passage of previous legislation.

Alcohol: Late Night Drinking

Baroness Browning Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I will certainly do my best to find the information, but it may not be easy to do so because it is a police matter rather than a Home Office matter. However, I will do all I can to find out if the information is available; I will inform the noble Lord, and I will place a copy in the Library.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that the excessive consumption of alcohol in the late night economy is often carried out by people who actually hold down quite responsible jobs in the daytime? I think that many people would be shocked at that. Will he continue to consider sobriety schemes? They would be a big disincentive to those people, who will have to explain to their employers why they have been required not to attend work because of their excessive alcohol consumption.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

It certainly has been the case that one of the by-products of excessive alcohol consumption is the cost to the British economy of absenteeism and the like. My noble friend makes a very good point.

Licensing Act 2003

Baroness Browning Excerpts

Wednesday 9th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord has taken a great interest in this subject. I have always valued his contributions and look forward to his contribution to the debates we are likely to have on this Bill. I am sure that these arguments will be presented when we have the opportunity. Meanwhile, I am grateful for his acknowledgment of the progress that the Government have made in this difficult area.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

Will my noble friend continue to liaise with the Department of Health to ensure that we reduce the number of people admitted to A&E departments who are clearly the worse for drink—often as a deliberate ploy, having had what they regard as a good night out? If we could tackle it from that end, perhaps we could help to move the culture change on even further.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Noble Lords will know that there have been a number of ideas on this issue. Chief Constable Adrian Lee from Northamptonshire suggested the idea of drunk tanks, which I had to read about to understand. This has generated some public debate; it is the sort of thing which clearly the Government will look at, because anything that can relieve the burden on hospitals must be a good thing.

Alcohol: Minimum Pricing

Baroness Browning Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I reassure the noble Baroness that no decision has been made. Nothing I have said today should imply that a decision has been made. We are in the process of evaluating the consultation procedure. As I say, we have had a great number of responses. On an issue of this importance, it is only just that we seek to get it right, and that is the position of the Government.

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, having brought the licensing laws through this House in 2011, which at the time had support across the House because there was recognition that the abuse of alcohol that is outlined today is really a very serious problem, I ask my noble friend not to be deflected in any way from putting together a package of changes—it needs to be a package—that will address this problem. Having observed how this Question was introduced in another place earlier this morning, I very much regret the party-political slanging match that it turned into.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend is perfectly correct that this demands a serious discussion and debate. The Government’s proposals for the consultation are in the form of a package of different measures, all of which are designed to reduce the health impact of excessive alcohol consumption. My noble friend makes a very good point.

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Baroness Browning Excerpts

Monday 14th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rennard]

The Deputy Prime Minister’s statement on 6 August was clearly not off the cuff and noble Lords to my left should have been aware of what he was going to say in the event of other issues which took place.

If I might proceed with some of my arguments, I would also like to say that for some of these Benches, another argument is very important. In the long deliberations on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, we considered the relative effects on the power of the Executive and Parliament of reducing the number of MPs from 650 to 600. My party has always considered the need to reduce the number of MPs in the context of issues such as greater devolution and decentralisation, and the reform of your Lordships’ House. Not all my noble friends behind me will agree on some key aspects of Lords reform, but we all want to see an effective second Chamber able to hold a Government, of any party, to account. The failure to achieve—

[Baroness Browning]

I am concerned at this linkage between Lords reform and the measures that the noble Lord is now espousing. I took the effort over the weekend to read 22 Days in May, by our colleague David Laws, who was part of the negotiations. In the book, I found nothing in those negotiations that links Lords reform with boundary changes.

[Lord Rennard]

My Lords, the constitutional package that resulted from those 22 days—or however long it was—of deliberation clearly linked together many aspects of constitutional reform. If I may be allowed to develop my argument, I am suggesting that there is a clear link between the accountability of government to Parliament and the number of MPs. It is the view of my party that the failure to achieve any measure of reform at all here means that the hoped-for increased ability to hold the Executive to account will not happen. It may even decline as the Prime Minister prepares to make many more nominations to this House.

With the so-called payroll vote approaching half the membership of the government side of the House of Commons, the power of government to control Parliament is effectively increased. I believe that the opposite should be the case. This is, therefore, not the right time to reduce the ability of the House of Commons to hold the Executive to account by reducing its membership. There are no signs that the size of the Government’s so-called payroll vote will be reduced and coalition government probably makes it less likely. Many in my party take the view that the reduction in the number of MPs proposed in the current boundary review should not take place without reform that would strengthen the legitimacy of this House.

The media would make too much of two coalition parties going into two different Lobbies today. But in countries across Europe where coalition is much more the norm, this is not so unusual and people understand that different parties vote in different ways on some issues, while agreeing on packages of measures where they can find agreement on what they both consider to be in the national interest.

On the whole package of constitutional reform set out in the coalition agreement, it was not possible to deliver what was promised in that agreement and in the gracious Speech following the general election. So my noble friends to my left should not be surprised that we are where we are today. Noble Lords who have followed our many debates on electoral registration will know that my consistent aim—and that of my party—has been to improve the process of electoral registration so that we have a system fit for the purpose of conducting elections and reviewing boundaries as and when required. The question that now must be considered is what is the link between the boundary reviews and the process of electoral registration being considered in this Bill.

It seems to me that the issues of electoral registration and boundaries are inextricably linked. As my noble friend the former leader of the House, Lord Strathclyde, stated when the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill was debated,

“the boundary review will be based on the electoral register in force at the time of the review”.

He pointed out that all:

“Previous boundary reviews have used the electoral register”.

He also relied on the fact, which we now know to be incorrect, that,

“the registration rate in the UK is between 91 and 92 per cent”.—[Official Report, 26/1/11; col. 1040.]

If the Bill that we are currently considering is passed, we will soon have a very different electoral register—one that, according to the aims of all Ministers, should be both more accurate and more complete. It is right that we use the new registration system for the next review of boundaries.

In considering the scope of the Bill, I too have great respect for the advice that we receive in this House and I note that it is for the House itself to decide on the basis of conflicting advice. However, I also have long experience of electoral registration and administration issues. I need hardly point out that elections simply cannot be conducted without a process to determine constituency boundaries and that this amendment is about the timing of that process. It is an integral part of the process by which boundaries are revised and why the amendment is highly relevant.

I thought long and hard about the Clerk’s advice and alternative legal opinions. It seems to me that even if electoral registration and boundaries were not considered to be connected, this Bill could not be considered to have only one or two simple purposes— the basis of the view that the amendment may be out of scope. It is clear to many of us that the Bill is about more than one or two things, since it actually covers at least eight areas: first, individual registration; secondly, the timetable for elections; thirdly, polling stations and district reviews; fourthly, the performance of returning officers; fifthly, emblems to be used on ballot papers; sixthly, the right of police and community support officers to enter polling stations; seventhly, alterations to the postal vote regime; and eighthly—and relevantly—repeal of existing powers for a centralised, national electoral register.

This means that the Bill is open to this amendment and, with good reason, we on these Benches support it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dobbs]

That is a very interesting question.

Noble Lords will remember that it was to do with the legal aid order, and I am sure that they will remember his words. He said that although the noble Lord, Lord Bach, kept alleging that a commitment had been made, “It was not made”. That is a direct quote. I found that pretty stirring stuff. It certainly stirred me; I went in search of the evidence to back up the claim that constituency boundaries are linked to Lords reform. We have heard so much about that and, after all, that is the reason why we are here today. I went first, and naively, to the words of the Deputy Prime Minister. I am sorry; is my noble friend trying to intervene?

[Baroness Browning]

Yes. A section of David Laws’s book is relevant to what my noble friend has just said. In the negotiations that he attended, he reports,

“‘So what I am suggesting is this,’ said Danny”—

that is, Danny Alexander, who is now a Minister.

“‘We will support your proposals on redrawing the constituency boundaries to make voting fairer. But in return, we want your support for a referendum on a reformed first-past-the-post system’”.

It is very clear what the deal was.

Scrap Metal Dealers Bill

Baroness Browning Excerpts

Friday 30th November 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Baroness Browning]

That the Bill be read a second time.

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, I am pleased to present the Second Reading of the Scrap Metal Dealers Bill to your Lordships’ House as a result of its successful passage through another place, where my honourable friend Richard Ottaway MP chose to reform the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 when he drew second place in the Private Members’ ballot. Metal theft and its illegal disposal have increased in recent years in line with world market prices for a range of metals commonly used in cabling, buildings and street furniture, among other things. Copper, aluminium, brass and lead are all widely used but so too, due to rising prices, are rare earths found in smartphones, computers and wind turbines. Thieves are quick to diversify their activities.

For too long, the disruption caused by the theft of metals has had a damaging impact on thousands of people and businesses. According to Network Rail, a cable theft in Crewe in October last year caused huge problems on the west coast main line as far as Preston and Liverpool, with 67 trains cancelled and 944 delayed as a result of that one incident. In Woking in June last year, 56 trains were cancelled and 43 part-cancelled when cable theft resulted in passengers alighting on to the tracks, causing extra delay and putting lives at risk. In Bermondsey in September last year, the theft of 65 metres of cable caused massive delays to services from London Bridge, with 146 trains cancelled and 840 delayed.

The Energy Networks Association reports an average of 20 attacks a day on its systems. The removal of BT cables from a small village can affect everyone: the till in the village shop, people working at home from computers and elderly people living alone with safety pendants who are suddenly left without a lifeline.

The cost to the economy is estimated by the Association of Chief Police Officers to cost £770 million a year, but the damage goes further than this. The theft of metal plaques from war memorials and graves causes great anguish to the loved ones. I saw only last week that a memorial bench on a cliff-top walk I take regularly had had the small brass plate removed. It was a couple of ounces at most, but the removal would be a distressing experience for the loved ones who placed it there.

Then there is the removal of lead from the roofs of churches. Many experience the theft several times over, with consequential difficulty in getting reinsurance. When I was a Minister at the Home Office in 2011, I was seized of the need to change the 1964 Act, as it was clearly inadequate. Among those making the case for change was the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London, who is in his place today. I am looking forward to his contribution.

At this point I should mention the work that has gone into mitigating the damage caused by metal theft. New technologies to mark metal cables, smart water and alternative materials to be used on roofs have all been adopted wherever possible. The combined efforts of the national metal theft task force, supported by the police, the industry and the Government, have been brought to bear to try to frustrate and stop the criminals. This work needs to continue, but weak regulation needs changing as it currently favours the criminal over the legitimate trade.

The Bill before us today will enable a more robust licensing scheme by repealing the 1964 Act. It will be replaced with legislation which will require an application for a licence which the local authority can turn down or revoke. Local authorities will have the power to turn down unsuitable applicants. There will be a more rigorous identification scheme at the point of sale. Sellers will have to provide recordable personal identification; there have been too many sales transacted by Minnie Mouse and D Duck. There will be new powers for the police and local authorities to enter and inspect sites. A central register will be created of all licensed dealers, which will be held by the Environment Agency. The definition of a scrap metal dealer will be widened to include motor salvage operators. The offence of buying metal with cash will be extended to itinerant metal collectors.

I know from previous debates in your Lordships’ House that cash transactions for the purchase of scrap metal have been a contributory factor that has compounded the rise in illegal sales of metal, and I am pleased that this has been addressed in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, due to a clause tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, who is in his place. I pay tribute to the hard work he has done on the proposed reforms before the House today.

It is encouraging that the Bill has received support from so many people across the political divide and among organisations that wish to see an end to illegal trading, not least the legitimate trade which is the target of metal thieves, losing some 15,000 tonnes of metal a year from its sites. The director-general of the British Metals Recycling Association told me this week,

“The association is in complete support of the steps being taken to replace the out-dated and ineffective Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964. Urgent regulatory reform is necessary to bear down on metal theft, give the authorities robust and enforceable powers to tackle illegal operators and deliver a much improved environment in which the legitimate metal recycling trade—the largest and most successful recycling sector in the UK—can operate. We endorse the Bill unreservedly”.

Metal theft is not petty crime. There is evidence that it is part of organised crime. It causes significant economic damage and personal distress, and too many criminals—those who steal and those who receive—have got away with it for too long. We now have the opportunity to support the legal trade and tighten the law on the illegal trade. My honourable friend’s Bill has the support of the Government, and I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken time to attend today’s Second Reading. I look forward to the contributions from the House. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend the Minister for rounding off the debate. It has been encouraging to hear so many contributions that clearly all travel in the same direction to bring about legislation that will put an end to this illegal trade. I am grateful, too, to the opposition Front Bench for its support for the Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, has worked hard on this. Given his persistence, I hope that he can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Even if not, I hope he will enjoy bathing in the rosy glow that my noble friend Lady Hamwee bestowed on him today. Of course, I thank her, too, for her contribution. As always, my noble friend had done her homework with attention to detail. She reminded us of the parts of the Bill that we need to focus on. If the Bill comes forward in Committee, I hope that we will be able to satisfy any concerns that she has.

As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London described the sheer scale of the damage to churches around the country, the word “plunder” came to mind. I do not know why but it did. It seems to be on that scale. It is quite horrifying that church communities have had to deal with that scale of illegal action. It has not just damaged the fabric of churches but also caused such damage to the hearts and souls of those who care for and look after these wonderful buildings.

My noble friend Lord Henley brought his support from experience in two ministries—Defra and the Home Office. I am enormously grateful for his contribution and for the fact that he carried the baton through the Home Office. As many noble Lords will know, however obvious the need for legislation and whatever Government are in power, it is not simply a matter of sitting down and saying, “Hey, I have a good idea: we really ought to do this as there is a problem here”. You have to battle and fight for change in all Governments. I thank my noble friend for the part he played.

I do not want to get too involved with my noble friend Lord Greaves in the Yorkshire/Lancashire thing but nor do I want him to be too disappointed. If the Bill is passed eventually, I do not think that it will solve the pending “War of the Roses”, which I sense is coming up over the hill. That might be for another piece of legislation. He explained the way in which gully grates are stolen; we have gone today from some of our most famous buildings down to gully grates. That just shows the scale to which these people will go to steal things that are not theirs for cash.

There is such an interest across the whole country in the heritage and buildings that are so important us. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, reminded us that that value is beyond market prices. That message went through many of the contributions we have had today. I am very grateful to everyone who has taken part today. I commend the Bill to the House.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.