Hydrogen Production Revenue Support (Directions, Eligibility and Counterparty) Regulations 2023

Debate between Baroness Blake of Leeds and Lord Teverson

Monday 18th December 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My goodness. I was not expecting that announcement and have not been party to that information. I am sorry: I was not clear from the noble Lord’s comments whether he meant the end of this year. Perhaps he has secret information about when this Parliament might come to an end.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I meant this year.

Energy Bills Discount Scheme Regulations 2023

Debate between Baroness Blake of Leeds and Lord Teverson

Monday 22nd May 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, that is quite a long introduction, and I thank the Minister for it. I have to admit to him that I was looking around at the pictures, and thinking that it was interesting that Moses managed to base Judaeo-Christian law on 10 paragraphs, whereas here we have about 100 pages on energy. We will perhaps move on to that.

I wanted, while not trying to be disingenuous, to actually congratulate the Government on something in these particular instruments. In the instrument on heat suppliers, no. 455, on page 12, in paragraph 1E(6)(c), we actually have the court being able to apply a fine of up to £5,000 in terms of enforcement, which is how I read it. I thought, “bingo”: there is actually a way in which, when we go through all these pass-through regulations, we could actually have something which might appear like a civil on-the-spot fine, which is a way to deter or provide some jeopardy if these pass-through arrangements are not adhered to. But needless to say, in instrument no. 463, we are back to the 2% on the outstanding amount. I am not asking the Minister to go through that again, but I genuinely believe that there was a sensible solution in terms of enforcement and that sort of approach, which could have been used in the other SIs.

On the energy and trade-intensive industries, one of the sectors that is not there is agriculture. I know that the Minister has a very good relationship with Defra, but I wondered whether he could perhaps take back again the fact that the horticulture sector—poultry, I understand, as well—is equally energy intensive, yet that primary industry sector has been left out. I realise, clearly, that this SI cannot be amended to do that, but I show my regret in this context that the agricultural industry has been left out of that. Perhaps the Minister would like to offer an explanation of why.

There is a cap here, which I am not necessarily against, of £5.5 billion. Is it on a first come, first served basis, or are the Government completely assured that that limit will not be hit?

Lastly, my only other question is whether the Northern Ireland situation has been sorted out with the European Union, in terms of approval, which I understand is in process.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I also add my thanks to the Minister for his fulsome explanation of the regulations before us today. I think we are on record as saying that we were disappointed with the delay at the beginning, but I think we can now say that it seems as though the mechanisms are up and running, and delivering for the people who desperately need this support provided.

I do not want to go over all of the points that have been covered and raised, but I have a couple of questions, particularly with reference to the Energy Bills Discount Scheme (Non-Standard Cases) Regulations. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, raised the agricultural sector; that is one to consider. Could the Minister anticipate whether there will be other areas coming forward that are struggling and are not covered under this provision? As we know, this area is regarded as a relatively small part of the market. “Relatively” is a very broad definition, and I would like to know whether the Government actually know the precise size of this area as we go forward.

One area that we have raised on several occasions is the whole area of implications for vulnerable customers and the provision that is laid out for intermediaries to cover. We recognise that the Government are developing a guidance and communication strategy to ensure those intermediaries are aware of their obligations, and therefore pass on the support as required.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Blake of Leeds and Lord Teverson

Report stage
Monday 17th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, from these Benches I welcome particularly the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott. I will not detain the House except to say that it is quite clear that community schemes have not operated effectively for many years. I should declare that I am an insignificant shareholder in a local community scheme in my own home area, which was set up under the feed-in tariffs. The schemes as put forward are not a kind of feed-in tariff regime: they are really looking for stability of price and are not around subsidy. I just say to the Minister that the Government’s overall target is decarbonisation of the grid by 2035: let communities play a big part in that, because one thing that is really important here is that community schemes allow for communities, individuals, households, families and small businesses to participate in the decarbonisation of our economy and net zero. They can be a part of it and that is why these amendments are so important.

On the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, it is indeed very important that local authorities are involved and are movers in this area. All I can say is that I have to learn from him: he has the ear of the Government and the Minister far more than I do, and perhaps I could have some lessons afterwards about how to be successful in getting amendments into Bills.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. It will come as no surprise to Members of the House that I support all these amendments, particularly Amendment 94 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale. Going by my personal experience, not giving a broader role to local authorities is such a missed opportunity and I cannot understand why these amendments would not be supported, particularly since it is, in all honesty, such a mild request: better definition of local authorities’ role; and asking for guidance, which is a perpetual demand from local authorities, I have to say, in trying to move things forward. As we know, other key reports and reviews have recognised just how important it is to get local buy-in and to get local stakeholders involved.

I turn to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, and signed by others. It is essential that we bring these elements together. What we are talking about, without repeating the technical issues that have been raised so powerfully today, is that we need to aim to have a framework that will support the growth of community and smaller-scale energy schemes and also provide regular reporting so that everyone knows how things are progressing. I have to say that all we are asking for is the following of an evidence-based approach. We can look at the success of other, related schemes in these areas that have been successfully led by local authorities. These include the rollout of electric vehicles, with local authorities leading by example in changing their fleets to electricity. District heating is another example where, when you have very strong local buy-in, the success moves forward. What we are asking for here is the ability to inform, shape and enable key aspects to deliver energy decarbonisation.

I believe very firmly in involving local stakeholders from the beginning; they are far more likely to come on board with schemes that might have aspects that they find work against their interests if they understand and are included in the bigger picture. Many people will make compromises when they understand the greater good, and the opportunity has been highlighted over the past year by the dramatic increase in energy prices and the risk of energy scarcity. I think the landscape has changed in this regard. Let us give confidence to local people and communities by developing the framework for the growth of communities and smaller-scale energy schemes. It is regrettable that more progress has not been made so far. The role of Ofgem in this, giving clear methodology and quality standards, is essential and will give the credibility that is needed, as the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, so eloquently pointed out.

Through the involvement of local communities, we are asking for a more effective and better targeted delivery of national priorities; and we all know that we need more determination to deliver on the ground. I hope we will see some movement in this area and can only echo other comments: if we fail to make progress, this is such wasted potential, and I hope we will hear some positive comments with regard to these amendments.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Blake of Leeds and Lord Teverson

Committee stage
Monday 16th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

Yes; the noble Lord, Lord Benyon, said that there were 1,200 pieces of legislation. I am therefore very concerned about how those standards will be produced and when. Perhaps the Minister could just give us an idea of those deadlines. I have a concern about enforcement generally but I am sure that the Minister will say, “They will be enforced.”

I have a further question in this area, which is around making sure in future that we have much better co-ordination on new developments and sharing infrastructure. I know this has come up in the Bill, but can the Minister assure us that this will be much better managed than in the past and that it will be a network rather than point to point? I again congratulate the Government on their agreement with the EU last month on the North Seas Energy Cooperation forum, which the UK has now joined. That makes complete sense to me. I will be interested to hear from the Minister what the next step on that co-operation is.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I start by thanking the Minister for his full explanation of the amendments in this group. I also thank all those who have contributed to the discussion so far and I very much look forward to the answers the Minister will give to the relevant questions that have been asked.

Obviously, the Government’s ambition of delivering up to 50 gigawatts of offshore wind by 2030, including up to five gigawatts of innovative floating offshore wind generation, is to be welcomed. However, as we have heard, this is a challenge in terms of delivery and obviously, it poses questions about the impact on the wildlife in the areas where these installations will go.

I understand that Denmark is well advanced in this respect, particularly on innovative floating offshore developments. Are we in dialogue with Denmark about its experience in this area? What has it learned, and does it have the same measures in place? It does not seem that we need to be setting this out if some of these challenges have already been met or understood, or indeed through implementation. I know that one of Denmark’s real concerns is moving the energy off the island and how that will be achieved, but also energy storage. Perhaps the Minister could enlighten us as to the thinking on putting in these installations and how we will get the maximum benefit from them without losing, as we have heard, some of the valuable energy delivered through the process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

One thing that the Minister did not mention, although I may have missed it, is the employees and staff of the NDA. What consultation has taken place as far as they are concerned?

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I have a few questions and, if it is not possible to answer them all, I shall accept a written response. It would appear that the Government are bringing forward legislation that breaks promises of previous Governments, going way back, in relation to nuclear workers’ pensions. The statutory pensions protections that Parliament previously legislated for were vital to the success of privatisation. Is it right for the Government to promise those protections to ensure that success, and then to rip them up that many years after the event? We would like some clarification as to whether the Minister believes that that is the case—and, if not, why not?

Is it accurate to claim that these reforms would bring pension provision across the NDA group into line with wider public sector pensions? These pension schemes underwent much more radical reform long before my noble friend Lord Hutton’s review of public sector pensions. They have been closed to new entrants for many years. My noble friend recommended that public sector pension accrual should remain on a defined benefit basis, but pension provision across the NDA group is mostly on a defined contribution basis. I have it on good authority that there is an appetite from the trade unions to discuss these reforms with Ministers. Would the Minister be prepared to accept this course of action?

Several more questions are coming up, particularly on technical issues and questions about the proposed amendments. The amendments should allow for the implementation of the agreement between BEIS, the NDA and the recognised trade unions. There is a lot of detail about the proposed career average benefit structure in the heads of terms, but the proposed amendments are drafted in more general terms. Regulations are the proper place for the detail to be set out, but might the agreed accrual rate be an important enough term of the agreement to be in the Bill as well? The average member contribution rate of 8.2% is specified.

There are concerns about proposed new subsection 3(c) of the first proposed new clause that adds this chapter to Part 12, which provides for the increase of pensions in line with CPI, not RPI, for active and deferred pensioner members. However, it says that only increases for active and deferred members—that is, re-evaluation—cannot be capped. This opens the real possibility that the Government intend to bring forward regulations that provide for pension increases for at least some members, possibly members of the Magnox group, to be capped. This is contrary to the heads of terms, which explicitly states that pension increases will be in line with inflation as measured by CPI, with no reference to any cap. Would it be possible to propose an amendment so that we can look at ensuring that regulations cannot propose capped increases for any pensioners?

I will end by asking: how confident are the Government that they can identify people in and out of scope of future regulations, given that there is a fair degree of geographical mobility around the industry?

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Blake of Leeds and Lord Teverson

Committee stage
Monday 19th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 181 in my name, which follows on from what my noble friend Lady Randerson was talking about.

The whole area of smart appliances is really important. It is in fact where demand management starts to creep into this Bill; it is about the only place that it does. The popularity of their potential has, I think, been shown by National Grid’s call for people to offer to manage their energy usage over particular times in the winter; the Minister may give us the figures but I think that more than a million people have shown an interest in it. I would be interested to know where we are with that.

There is a risk here, however. We have seen it with smart meters. I will not go back to the smart meters argument but one barrier to rollout has been the fear of people sharing information. Clearly, data is core to smart technology; data is personal so there is the question of how that data will be used.

My Amendment 181 is really a probing amendment; it is not in the form that would finally go into a Bill. It seeks to understand how the Government are going to communicate what is a really important thrust in terms of demand management and the way we use dispersed energy systems in a smart grid. How are they going to explain and deliver the strategy outlined so that we do not have the consumer reaction that we have had in other areas, including smart meters—very much media-driven, I should add? I want to avoid that.

The other area on which I want to tackle the Minister is concerns Clause 187(3)(d). It is one sub-paragraph of just three lines about security of information—indeed, the whole area of security. This is a core, important area: we know that, wherever smart systems or information technology are involved, there are all sorts of threats regarding the use of personal information. There is also the threat of external hacking, with state actors or others going into these systems and making them unusable.

It is easy and right to say that personal and other data used with smart technologies are secure or otherwise protected, but who is actually going to do that? I am talking about security or communication software systems. I would like to know from the Minister who will be responsible for the protection and security of these systems. I believe that it is important from the bottom up in terms of personal information but also in terms of smart grids and external, less favourable people towards the United Kingdom intervening here. I am sure that the Government have this under control and consideration but it is a really important area. We need to understand that it is being taken seriously and that, whoever the person or authority, they are going to make sure that these particular three lines in Clause 187(3)(d) are delivered.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I will be brief, but I will continue the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on security. I do not have a sense of confidence when we are told that the Government are going to be responsible for these specific areas. Could we have some more detail from the Minister about how this will be put in place and regulated? As we have heard in this discussion, exposure to cyberthreats could be enhanced by the very nature of smart technology. Therefore, we need a great deal of reassurance that this is being dealt with appropriately, and we know who is ultimately responsible for that reassurance.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Blake of Leeds and Lord Teverson

Committee stage
Monday 12th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

Forgive me. I am looking at a slightly out-of-date document. Anyway, that is the area that I would be interested to understand from the Minister. We will come to other amendments another time.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I too welcome the return of the Bill. It is quite interesting to reflect back to the first and second days in Committee, when we were recording the hottest temperatures that we had ever experienced in this country and were making full use of that experience. We were also in the midst of the leadership contest and questioning the commitment of the candidates; we had no way of knowing, of course, that both of them would take their turn in No. 10 and have the ability to demonstrate their commitment.

We are really pleased to see the return of the Bill. We were concerned that there would be changes and, as we said on the first two days in Committee, there are some measures in this Bill that are urgent and that we need to get a move on with in order to address the challenges that we face in this space.

I do not have an enormous amount to add to the Minister’s very full comments. I just seek clarification. When I see an amendment on consultation, I am always slightly concerned to know who exactly would come into the sphere of consultation and make sure that it is as full as it could be. The issues around making sure that the fund remains sufficient are very practical and necessary. With that plea for clarification on consultation, I am happy to leave it there.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Blake of Leeds and Lord Teverson

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I add my welcome to my noble friend Lady Liddell and I am certain that my noble friend Lord Foulkes will be thinking of organising a party to celebrate her return to Westminster.

I cannot add to the comments she made on her amendment. I completely support what she said. I feel that there is a bit of déjà vu here and that we are going over ground we covered in our first session on Monday, but I think it is really important that we emphasise again, through the amendments that my noble friend Lord Lennie and I have put down, how important it is that we have clarity in all aspects of the Bill. I want to emphasise again the need to ensure that all aspects are future-proofed, thereby giving all parties the confidence that matters of probity, security and appropriate appointments are always taken into account in key positions. It is unfortunate that we need to emphasise this aspect, but I think experience will tell us that it is a very necessary part of all the processes that we bring in place.

To recap briefly, in Amendment 42 we would like to insert the phrase “fit and proper”. As we have said before, this is not the first time this has been used—it was used in the National Security and Investment Bill. Through this amendment we make sure that it is the responsibility of the Secretary of State personally to deem the individual as fit and proper.

Amendment 44 specifically refers to the need for the hydrogen counterparty to be

“a fit and proper person”.

The aim is to make sure that responsibility is very clearly accounted to the Secretary of State.

The explanatory statement for Amendment 64 says:

“If the Secretary of State needs to find a new counterparty, this amendment requires that they must ensure they are a fit and proper person, as with previous amendments in our names”.


I do not think that at this point in the state of affairs we can emphasise enough just how important it is to have accountability, clarity and the ability to have straight- forward lines of communication.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I did not like to address the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness before she had addressed them herself. I welcome the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell; I think it adds clarity. I absolutely agree with the amendment that the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, has just gone through. I think “fit and proper” is used many times throughout certainly financial services secondary legislation, and when it comes to hydrogen production it seems to me that this is something that is really key. I look forward to the Minister arguing that people in this position should not be fit and proper people, and I pass over to him.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Blake of Leeds and Lord Teverson

Committee stage
Monday 5th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I asked specifically that all these amendments be grouped together because they have one aim: to make sure that there is a coherence between policy measures and the net zero pathway that is the Government’s own aim. Of course, the Government have undertaken to produce a government strategy and policy statement and the Bill requires a statement focusing on CCUS to be produced as well. However, our contention is that there is no current requirement for policy and infrastructure planning processes to be based on a consistent set of assumptions about the future. That means, in practice, that two projects could get a green light despite being justified by incompatible visions of system need, ensuring that one would ultimately be left stranded. Of course, that does not lead to confidence in this area. So there could be incompatible visions.

For instance, hydrogen electrification visions of the future involve very different supporting infrastructure, and a lack of coherence could create expensive infrastructure which, at the end of the day, is unusable or redundant. The strategy provides an opportunity to set out the latest set of assumptions, projections and decision methodology and I am sure that is what the Government want to do to underpin their policy, to which other processes should align. What we are really trying to do in these amendments is to make sure, practically, that the actions that arise from the Bill are coherent and tie in with the policy statements of the Government. It seems absolutely straightforward to me: it is that missing link, if you like, that pushes together intent in these various areas and makes sure that the strategy is coherent in its delivery. It is as simple as that and I hope the Government and the Minister will look favourably on that approach. I beg to move.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I do not have an enormous amount to add to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I highlight again the significance of linking strategy and policy: that is crucial. We will discuss in future debates the issues around the role of the ISOP and its independence, and, particularly in the context of this afternoon’s debate, look at long-term thinking, making sure that we get all the checks and balances in place. We are in a very fast-moving environment and need to make sure that we are absolutely on top of all the changes that are taking place. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, highlighted the risk of lack of coherence: we need to make sure that everything is nailed down, line by line, and I am sure we will have further discussion on these areas as we go through different aspects of the Bill. I look forward to the Minister’s conclusions on this group of amendments.