Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 13th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Effingham (Con)]

My Lords, these amendments make fundamental changes to the process by which a person is able to access assistance with ending their life under the Bill. It is clear that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has put great care and thought into these proposals, drawing on her decades-long, extensive experience in medicine. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, put it so well when she said that “years of work” and thinking on how this will work have been done by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay.

Amendment 333 replaces the doctor’s assessment with the multidisciplinary panel process, bringing skills and knowledge from the health sector, the social work sector and the justice sector, including 10 years of minimum relevant experience. Our understanding is that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is seeking to strengthen the safeguards for people who are seeking an assisted death, which was also referenced by the noble Lord, Lord Harper.

We know from previous groups already debated, and indeed this very group, that many noble Lords are profoundly concerned about vulnerable individuals. On the basis of what appears prima facie to be a widespread sentiment in your Lordships’ House, may we ask whether the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, agrees that potentially more can be done to safeguard those vulnerable people and ensure that they are not pressured into seeking assistance under the Bill?

If the noble and learned Lord were to acknowledge these concerns and accept relevant amendments, will the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, please set out any assessment that the Government may have researched regarding the practical solutions required to implement the proposals of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay—points touched on by the noble Baroness, Lady Cass, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss? Will the Minister also give your Lordships’ House a sense of the Government’s view on the balance that they will need to strike between the risks of a vulnerable individual dying in a circumstance where their capacity, understanding or will might be in doubt versus the practicality of delivering an assisted dying service?

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Blake of Leeds) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for taking part in the debate so far today. As we know, this group of amendments focuses on two core subjects: first, adding a new multidisciplinary panel process into the Bill, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and secondly, amendments in relation to approved substances. This is a large group of amendments. As ever, my comments will be limited to amendments where the Government have major legal or technical workability concerns.

On the suite of amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, it is the Government’s view that, logically, these amendments stand or fall together, as they are a systemic change to the Bill. The amendments would introduce a new system of “assisted dying panels”, distinct from the existing assisted dying review panel in the Bill. These panels would receive and consider requests for assistance as part of the first declaration process, replacing the role of the co-ordinating doctor. The amendments would also introduce the concepts of “licensed assisted dying services”, “navigators for assisted dying”, and “designated” pharmacies. These are rightly policy choices and matters for the sponsor and for Parliament to decide on.

However, noble Lords may wish to note that it is the Government’s view that this package of amendments would lead to major technical, legal or operational workability concerns. The amendments introduce new concepts that would require significant further work to ensure that the policy intent was clearly understood and could work with the rest of the Bill.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

The point about the drugs and their control will surely have to be dealt with by the Government, whatever happens. What assessment have they made—surely they ought to make it in any circumstances—about how that should be done, what it would cost and how one can protect people from dangers which have happened? It seems to me that that is not a policy matter but a practical matter which we ought to understand from the Government.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I can only refer the noble Lord to previous comments that the details around these matters will be considered when progress is made. It is not appropriate for those matters of detail to be considered now. The noble Lord is shaking his head, but I think we are very clear about the responsibility of government at this moment in time, and it will be for my noble and learned friend to respond to the detail of policy as we go forward.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

If the Minister does not mind me saying so, this is a real problem. If we do not know—because only the Government can tell us—what the mechanism whereby drugs would be dealt with would be, how can we make decisions about this? We really need to know from the Government, under the present Bill, what in general the way in which they will deal with this is, otherwise we will have to put it into the Bill because we do not know. It really is important for the Government to help us.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I completely recognise the noble Lord’s strength of feeling, which he has expressed on many occasions. However, I just reaffirm that we would go through a process for determining the mechanism around the matters that he raises should the Bill progress, and that is a clear point from the Government in response to his—

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

I wonder whether my noble friend the Minister might be able to help me. I presume that the Government would look at the extensive literature that is available in medical and scientific journals on the action, tests and usage of these drugs in a number of sovereignties where they have been used successfully for assisted dying.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

As always, my noble friend raises an important point. I will go on to talk about the whole issue of substances, so if I do not address the points he raised, I will be happy to speak or write to him afterwards to make sure that he has had the clarification he requires.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I want to press the Minister a little for an answer, not necessarily this minute, on the point that my noble friend Lord Deben makes. It is perfectly proper for matters of genuine detail to be dealt with after Parliament has passed primary legislation; there are many pieces of legislation where we do that. However, there are quite a lot of issues which are not set out in the legislation—this is part of the concern that the Delegated Powers Committee set out—and they are not, by any stretch of the imagination, details. They are fundamentally important issues around, in this case, the substances. Can the Minister therefore take away the idea that if the Government cannot answer on some of these really big issues that are left not set out in the legislation, it will make it incredibly difficult, even for people who support the principle of the legislation, to support it in practice? It would be more helpful if, on these bigger issues, the Government could set out what their position is.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I just reinforce to the noble Lord that it would be completely wrong to pre-empt the decisions of Parliament—I am sure he is fully aware of that. I just want to give reassurance that, across all these issues, evidence would be considered in the usual way in considering the substances to be used should the Bill pass. I think I have been exceptionally clear on this, and we need to move forward.

Given the size of the group, I reaffirm that it would be impossible to address each amendment specifically, but the broad thematic workability concern is that the use of unclear and ambiguous language could result in unworkable duties and increased risk of legal challenge.

I turn to amendments tabled in relation to the regulation of approved substances and clinical trials. Many of these amendments are policy choices and are therefore a matter for the sponsor and for Parliament. However, noble Lords may wish to note that many of these amendments also introduce new concepts that would require significant work to ensure the policy intent is clearly understood and that they are coherent for the rest of the Bill. I draw noble Lords’ attention to a number of amendments where the Government have major workability concerns.

Amendments 701 and 713, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Hollins, relate to clinical trials for approved substances. First, these amendments could delay implementation of the Bill until a clinical trial or evidence-gathering study is completed, which could make implementation within the four-year timeframe difficult. Noble Lords may wish to be aware that these amendments could create workability concerns relating to the ethical and regulatory challenges for clinical trial processes for approved substances.

[Baroness O’Loan (CB)]

Does the Minister think it is ethical and right to administer drugs that have not been cleared through a normal process and to expedite their use? Surely we have to wait until the drugs have been properly tested.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I do not think it would be appropriate to comment on that level of detail at this point.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I hope that noble Lords can listen to what I have to say. The clinical trial processes for approved substances are, of course, an essential part as we move forward.

Amendment 703, also tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, would not be workable in its current form. It would require a clinical trial process that would delay implementation. The effect of the amendment is unpredictable as it is unclear whether the intention of proposed new paragraph (d) is to regulate the substances themselves, the approval process or the body responsible for oversight.

Amendments 704, 705, 698, 708 and 710 were tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. Amendments 704 and 705 seek to amend the powers under Clause 37. These amendments would limit Clause 37(4), so that regulations may apply only to substances that have received approval in the Human Medicines Regulations 2012—the HMRs. Those regulations provide for licensing, which is a marketing authorisation of medicinal products and not approval. This is a different legal concept. Additionally, if the amendment is read as requiring licensing under the HMRs specifically for assisted dying, this would be operationally complex to design and implement.

Amendment 698 would require any regulations made under Clause 37 to be consistent with the existing rules for medicine overseen by the MHRA and for controlled drugs overseen by the Home Office. We believe that this requirement, in practice, is unworkable. The substances that may be approved under Clause 27 will not necessarily be medicines licensed for this indication or controlled drugs. If a substance falls outside those regimes, it would be impossible to make regulations that are genuinely consistent with them. This amendment may therefore place requirements on the Secretary of State that cannot be met.

Amendment 708 would require that, for the Secretary of State to make provision by regulation to allow for the use of devices to enable assisted dying, such devices must have Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency approval. This approach does not align with how much the regulatory system for medical devices currently operates. Although the MHRA is responsible for regulating the UK medical devices market and requires such devices to be registered with the agency, it does not approve or license medical devices individually. Medical devices are placed on the market following conformity assessment under the UK Medical Devices Regulations 2002, usually carried out by independent approved bodies.

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[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

May I just clarify? I think that response was in response to my amendments to Clause 37 for the manufacture of these products. However, Amendment 552B is in respect of the limited number of designated pharmacies which were distributing these drugs. In Amendment 552, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, referred to three designated pharmacies. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, wanted those three pharmacies to be limited to dispensing and storing but not supplying. Mine was simply an amendment to that from the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, to say that they should be ordered in on a case-by-case basis; it was not an amendment to Clause 37 at this stage.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

Apologies; I thank the noble Baroness for her clarification on that point. I was mid-sentence, so forgive me if I repeat myself. Limiting the number of manufacturers based on prior prescriptions is operationally impractical and could risk supply shortages.

I turn to Amendment 713A from the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. This amendment appears to seek to introduce a parallel approvals regime, but it does not specify how that should relate to the Secretary of State’s separate power.

[Baroness O’Loan (CB)]

I just want to ask the Minister about her response to the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor. She was, I think, saying to the Committee that limiting the places at which you can get the lethal drugs that will be required for death would inhibit the process. I say to her that there are situations in which the supply of medication is limited in exactly that way. Some years ago, I had toxoplasmosis, and the only place the drug could be administered then was Scotland. So it is possible; such systems exist now. I do not quite understand why drugs to treat toxoplasmosis have to be controlled, but the suggestion is that drugs that will kill people do not.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I would be happy to write to the noble Baronesses with clarification on that point; I thank them for their interventions.

As I was saying, Amendment 713A appears to introduce a parallel approvals regime, but it does not specify how that should relate to the Secretary of State’s separate power under Clause 27 to specify the list of approved substances. This could lead to operational uncertainty. Although the amendment could be delivered, establishing a dedicated regulatory pathway would likely require adjustments to the MHRA’s remit and internal processes.

I turn finally to Amendments 887A and 888A from the noble Lord, Lord Empey, which would amend Clause 57 by removing the reference to Northern Ireland. This would mean that regulations made under Clause 37 would not extend to or apply in Northern Ireland. As medicines regulations are UK-wide, should this amendment be accepted, it might create legislative divergence across the UK. This does not mean that assisted dying would be legalised in Northern Ireland.

As noble Lords will be aware, many of these amendments have not had technical drafting support from officials. If your Lordships support these amendments, the Government will need to revisit the drafting of amendments and the Bill as a whole to ensure that they are workable and coherent, both internally and with the wider statute book.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords who have participated in this debate. I will divide my responses thematically under four headings.

I turn first to the new scheme proposed by noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, in relation to how one deals with safeguarding here. The scheme would involve not having two doctors, then the panel, and then a doctor again at the point of administration; instead, the person who wants an assisted death would have to apply to a separate organisation, where a panel of up to seven people would consider their application. That panel would consider whether the safeguards are satisfied, as well as a number of other questions. If it were satisfied, it would give a provisional certificate of eligibility. The drugs could not then be delivered—I use that word without meaning “delivered to the person”—because an application for fast-track care and support would have to be made. If that application were granted, then—and only then—could the drugs be administered.

If there were doubt in the mind of the seven-person panel, the matter would be referred to the High Court. The provisions put forward by the noble Baroness do not specify what the role of the High Court is. The panel has to satisfy itself that a number of questions have been addressed, although those questions do not determine whether or not somebody is entitled to an assisted death. That is the proposal from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. The current proposal in the Bill is that the co-ordinating doctor has to satisfy themselves of seven or eight strict matters, and then the panel considers the case. The co-ordinating doctor then, satisfied that the conditions have been met, provides assistance to the person who wants to die.

Underlying the distinction between the two proposals is the wish of the noble Baroness that the whole process of assisted dying be kept completely separate from the care that is being given to the patient. I am sorry that neither the noble Baroness, Lady Cass, nor the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, is here, for they both highlighted that, under the scheme in the Bill, the people who will be going through the checks—the co-ordinating doctor and the independent doctor—will have to have opted in to specialist training. To some extent, they will be specialists themselves in assisted dying.

If one wants to give as much help as possible to the person who wants an assisted death, it must be better that the person providing the assistance can work within the team that is already providing care. It does not mean that they should be in any way pressing for a particular result. But, if we introduce assisted dying, and we want somebody to do the assessment and give the assistance, we are probably going to have ask somebody with some experience. We do not want to force the patient into an over-complex, entirely separate process.

I note that the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Birmingham, said that he wants the process kept separate from the NHS, but I am absolutely sure that he does not want the patient to embark on a very complex bureaucratic procedure. He has given reasons why he wants it kept separate from the NHS. As sponsor of the Bill, whether it is precisely separate or not is, for me, not the key question; the key question is whether, if a patient wants an assisted death, there is a practical and safe way of doing it that does not place an undue burden on them.

The proposal from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, is overengineered and much too separate from the care of the patient. It leaves out so many aspects. In particular, the drafting of her proposal does not indicate what her seven-person panel has to be satisfied of. The idea that seven people have to be satisfied is, in my respectful submission, much too onerous. Having two specialist doctors and a panel of three examining the case is, with respect, a much better proposal. I have thought very carefully about the noble Baroness’s proposal, but I have to say that the proposal in the Bill is so much better, so much more workable and so much more focused on the patient.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, the sheer number of amendments from noble Lords on all sides of the Committee that are seeking to prevent medical practitioners initiating a conversation about assisted dying with a patient demonstrates how strongly noble Lords feel about this issue. As a minimum, it is clear that many noble Lords do not feel that the Bill’s current drafting is sufficient. Although we have heard some counter-arguments during the debate, it is now incumbent on the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, to set out in some detail his reasons for allowing registered medical practitioners to initiate these discussions.

Following on from that, there was one particularly moving contribution to this debate: the speech from my noble friend Lady Monckton. The case she made from her own family perspective in support of my noble friend Lord Shinkwin’s Amendment 162—to prohibit the topic of assisted dying being raised with someone with Down syndrome or a learning disability—was one I found especially powerful. I hope that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, will acknowledge that this is a particularly sensitive aspect of the issue which needs to be addressed.

There are two additional issues I should like to pick up. I was particularly interested in the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, which requires a minimum 48-hour delay between diagnosis and any conversation about assisted dying. Given the shock that a patient will feel when receiving a diagnosis that could make them eligible under the Bill, it seems right and appropriate that they be given the space and time to process the news before facing the question of potentially ending their own life. Is the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, willing to consider how that degree of sensitivity might be incorporated into the Bill—or, failing that, into guidance—to ensure that patients who receive some of the worst news they will ever hear do not immediately feel the need to address a choice as momentous and emotive as whether they wish to end their own life?

Finally, the amendments in respect of persons aged under 18 are worthy of the noble and learned Lord’s careful consideration. The Bill is designed to create a legal right for those aged over 18, not for children, so surely it follows that its provisions should not be raised with children. I therefore hope the noble and learned Lord will carefully consider the protections for children that the Bill could usefully incorporate.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this very important debate. As usual, I will limit my comments to amendments on which the Government have major legal, technical or operational workability concerns.

To begin, key concepts in Amendment 149, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, are unclear. It will therefore be difficult to assess whether the duties have been discharged. For example, it is not clear who must co-ordinate and undertake the suggested multiagency assessment of support needs and who is responsible for ensuring that those needs are fully funded, so it may be impossible to demonstrate that these criteria have been met.

Amendment 152, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, seeks to prohibit registered medical practitioners or any other health professionals from raising the subject of provision of assistance under the Bill. If passed, this would be inconsistent with the discretion currently afforded to the registered medical practitioner in Clause 5(2), which makes it clear that a registered medical practitioner may exercise

“their professional judgement to decide if, and when, it is appropriate to discuss the matter”.

This amendment would therefore create conflicting duties and may lead to confusion about whether a registered medical practitioner can raise the issue of assisted dying.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

Briefly, as it is of no interest to other Members of the Committee, but it is surprising that, with all the legal advice offered to her, the noble Baroness has not noticed that there is a consequential amendment in my name in the same group—which I referred to—which deletes subsection (2), since I too have spotted that there is an inconsistency and I have dealt with it.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. It is still worth raising these matters in this context to avoid any confusion.

Amendment 162, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, would mean that a registered medical practitioner could not raise assisted dying with any person with a learning disability, including people with Down syndrome, unless they raise the subject themselves. This restriction would apply to all persons with a learning disability, including where the person has the capacity to make a decision to end their own life.

The purpose of Amendments 205, 207 and 207A, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Monckton and Lady Grey-Thompson, appears to be to prevent a healthcare professional raising the subject of the provision of assistance with a person who has a learning disability or autism, unless that person has a family member, independent person or guardian present. Under Amendment 207A, both a family member and an independent person would need to be present. These amendments do not draw any distinction between varying levels of individual need. As drafted, a registered medical practitioner would be required to establish in all cases that the person does not have autism or a learning disability before raising the subject of an assisted death, unless a family member or independent person is present.

Amendment 200C, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, would mean that no person could raise the provision of assistance with those under the age of 18, whether online or otherwise. Amendment 209, tabled by my noble friend Lady Goudie, prohibits any adult with a duty of care or responsibility for a person under 18, including but not limited to guardians, social workers, educators or carers, from raising the subject of assisted dying “with such a person”. These amendments would be extremely difficult to enforce, due to their breadth and ambiguity. They may, for example, prohibit parents or guardians from discussing the broad issue of assisted dying with their children.

Finally, I bring to noble Lords’ attention that amendments discussed here, including Amendments 149, 162, 200C, 205, 207, 207A and 209, could give rise to legal challenge on ECHR grounds, in particular challenges brought under Articles 8, 10 and 14. These amendments would require reasonable and objective justification to comply with ECHR obligations.

I make no comment on the other amendments in this group. However, as noble Lords will be aware, the amendments have not had technical drafting support from officials. Therefore, further revision and corresponding amendments may be needed to provide consistent and coherent terminology throughout the Bill.

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, for the benefit of the Committee, I will let noble Lords know that when we have heard from my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton, I intend to bring the Committee to a conclusion. It would be wiser to wait to start the next group next week, rather than to get half way through it and have all the problems about who was or was not here, and so on. If colleagues are thinking ahead to the next group, it will not be called until next week.

Community Sentences (Justice and Home Affairs Committee Report)

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Friday 26th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Macdonald of River Glaven (CB)]

My Lords, I hope your Lordships will bear with me as I speak during the gap. I am aware that such contributions are meant to be kept short, so I will speak relatively briefly. I do not need to mention my interest, because it has already been referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford.

I congratulate the committee on its report, which is absolutely excellent: it is rigorous and well-argued, and a very good piece of work. For my part, I agree with its conclusions and recommendations. I thought the Ministry of Justice’s response was careful and constructive, and also a very good piece of work. That said, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that the Government ought now to treat this as a springboard, rather than the final word, and to build on that response, because there is progress that can be made.

I will make a couple of points. I was delighted when, on Wednesday—I cannot remember whether it was during questions on the Lord Chancellor’s Statement or during the King’s Speech debate—the Minister went out of his way to remark upon the great attachment to public service of those working within the probation service. I was delighted, because my experience running the CPS taught me that there is nothing more destructive to the morale of a workforce than to be constantly criticised and abused—in the press and, sometimes, even by members of the Government, as I am afraid we have seen in the past. This drains enthusiasm and demotivates; it sucks the lifeblood out of a workforce.

I was interested to hear what the Minister had to say in his remarkable maiden speech about his own business and the way he treats his employees. I hope the Government will take a similar approach. Of course, when things go wrong, they have to be investigated and put right, but it seems that we hear only when things wrong; we do not hear about the countless occasions when the men and women working in our public services get things right.

There are other pressures; it is not simply media and political pressure. As others have made clear, the probation service is badly understaffed and underfunded. There are too many relatively junior probation officers taking on cases which should be reserved for more senior, experienced people, who do not exist in the service. This will take a long time to put right. Recruiting 1,000 new probation officers is better than nothing, but they will be trainee probation officers, at the bottom. Programmes to try to tempt back into service more senior figures who have left in recent years will also be important.

If it will become the aim of this Government, as I very much hope it will, to try to reduce our prison population, the obvious place for them to start will be at the lower end, with those serving shorter sentences who have the highest reoffending rates—over 50% for adults released from serving sentences of 12 months or under. However, if these individuals are released without some form of supervision, the policy will soon discredit itself, and the Government could even be forced into a U-turn. An absolute corollary of reducing the prison population is to boost probation and rehabilitation services. The former cannot happen successfully without the latter.

We are told that there is not enough money, and that may be the case, but we could save some money from the £600,000 it takes to build each new prison cell, put less people in prison, and spend some of that money perhaps on intensive treatment, probation officers and other rehabilitation services. We have the balance of expenditure wrong.

I was very interested in the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, during the King’s Speech debate on Wednesday. He is a distinguished former leader of the Liberal Democrats, and I think we can all agree—I am sure Liberal Democrats would—that he is a wise old bird. He made the point that it is important in this debate to keep lines of communication open with the top of the Government.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

Could I ask that the noble Lord makes his comments short, and brings them to a conclusion, please?

[Lord Macdonald of River Glaven (CB)]

I will come to a conclusion now.

I was simply going to say that I think that is absolutely right. I knew the new Prime Minister for 25 years at the Bar, first as a practitioner and thereafter when he succeeded me as Director of Public Prosecutions. I think his instincts would tend towards supporting generally the conclusions of this report. If that is right, those inclinations, combined with the Minister’s well-known desire to boost rehabilitation, could lead, at last, to some real reform in this area.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank everyone for the extraordinary debate that we have had on this issue today. I continue in the vein of looking for optimism in the outcomes of some of the discussions that we have had. I pay particular tribute to Members of this House who have joined Members of the other place in relentlessly pursuing this issue, to the extent that there is now a far greater understanding—not only in Parliament but in the wider country and the communities particularly affected—about the issue of SLAPPs, which perhaps a year or two ago was not understood at all.

To start by going back to the very basics, SLAPPs are, as we know, strategic lawsuits against public participation, abuses of the legal system, generally by the super-rich—and, it is important to remember, they are intended to harass, intimidate and financially and psychologically exhaust one’s opponent. I am not sure that that element has quite come through, although everyone is fully aware of it. We have talked today about this practice being embedded in the system and its close relationship to the scourge of economic crime. In other debates that we have had on the Bill so far, we have highlighted the real extent of economic crime facing this country. All of us have an obligation and commitment to come together to work out how we are going to deal with it.

As we have heard, the use of SLAPPs has been linked to Russian oligarchs. That is inevitable, given what has happened over the past year, particularly with regard to looking at ways to prevent journalists from reporting on their links to economic crime, with particular reference to the war in Ukraine. As we have seen, SLAPPs are not only used by those committing economic crime, but the amendments proposed here narrow the definition to those concerned with suppressing information on economic crime. The wider point which we need to take on board is about the serious concerns that SLAPPs are now being used to suppress democracy globally. It is important to put it as far as this.

I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, has had to go, but I would like to say to him that his attempt to reassure us on the numbers has not had that effect at all. It has been clearly stated that the small numbers that reach court highlight and emphasise the problem that we have.

I shall go on to ask the Minister to comment on the view coming from the other place that SLAPPs are under a separate jurisdiction and therefore should be under a separate Bill. We have heard some great arguments as to why we should look at these amendments seriously and incorporate them into this Bill.

I thank all noble Lords who have spoken to their amendments and clearly given us a full understanding of the purpose behind them and how they will contribute to the overall objective. From our position on these Benches, we look forward to engaging in full and detailed conversations as to how, as I suspect will be necessary, we present further amendments on Report. We support the principle of the Government bringing forward effective legislation and will continue to call out this issue wherever it occurs, whether on this estate or elsewhere, when anyone in a position of influence puts undue pressure on someone to make sure that important matters do not see the light of day.

I want to highlight some of the reasons why feelings are running so high. We need to understand and remember the severe power imbalance between the claimant and the defendant. In this context, journalists and media outlets are put at a disadvantage from the outset, as we have heard today. Defending a legal case can, as we know, be prohibitively expensive and a huge drain on resource. As we need to emphasise every time we speak about this, SLAPPs can create significant financial jeopardy for journalists and media outlets, with legal costs starting to accrue long before cases get anywhere near reaching court.

Putting ourselves in the place of those who have been subjected to this, I think that the process of defending a legal case in this sphere can feel like punishment: a fear of devastating financial impact, potential loss of savings, their homes, pensions and livelihoods if a case goes to court. The effort in putting a case together involves massive distraction from the work that people are trying to do. As others have said—it is a serious charge but one we should take seriously—this is having the impact of undermining the basis of democracy.

We have talked about how libel laws in the UK are weighted, but we also need to emphasise the issue of libel tourism. It remains an issue in the UK. The bar to bring a case here is problematically low, and the use of privacy and data protection laws is increasing. We need to consider that SLAPPs in the UK are often pursued against individuals rather than the organisation they work for, which undermines the resources available to mount an adequate defence.

One of the themes running through all our discussions on the Bill is the reputational damage to London and, therefore, the country. London’s obvious position as a global hub for the super-rich has compounded the problem. We must make sure that clients cannot use threats of legal action to clean up their image and remove unfavourable information from the public domain. There has been insufficient recognition by the UK Government and official bodies of the connection between protecting media freedom and countering corruption.

Returning to the personal, I suggest that other factors include the psychological impact of intimidation and harassment on those subject to legal challenges. That has not been sufficiently recognised, and such things lead to a massive impact on mental health.

Will the amendments before us today tackle those issues? I think that is a subject for further discussion, but the main question that has been put repeatedly from across the Committee today is whether the Government are serious about measures to end these practices. We had some optimism in July last year when there seemed to be a commitment that legislative reform measures would come forward, but where are they? Are they being moved forward? Will the Government follow through by supporting the measures proposed in amendments to the Bill?

We have heard that this is a serious issue. It is urgent for so many reasons that we have discussed today. My last question for the Minister is: will the Government take this opportunity to act, recognising how urgent the situation is, and meet with us to discuss ways that we can move this important matter forward?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Bellamy) (Con)]

My Lords, I warmly thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate and who have spoken to me directly on this issue. I also thank noble Lords for the enormous amount of thought and consideration that has been put into this issue by those who have spoken. There is significant strength of feeling across the Committee on this important issue. I begin by providing an assurance that the Government share those concerns and that it is clear to the Government that we should take legislative action against SLAPPs. As the Government have set out, for many reasons that have been mentioned in this debate, we are firmly committed to legislating effectively, comprehensively and without undue delay on this issue.

Noble Lords will not necessarily be entirely happy when I say that we do not think this Bill is the correct vehicle for tackling this issue. There are essentially two reasons for that. One is that here we are dealing with economic crime. I take my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier’s technical point about the scope of the Bill, but the major issue here is that, even if we were to put in an amendment to this Bill, it would still be too narrow because we are not covering matters that are not economic crime, such as freedom of expression, political interference, national security and so forth. The Government’s preference would be to handle the entire landscape of SLAPPs in one place, and that is not this Bill.

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[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I eagerly anticipate it.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

Can I ask that we are all included in the correspondence?

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

Absolutely. I will write to everybody after this debate and try to elaborate a little on what I have said. I hope noble Lords understand that in terms of my boss, I recently had a change of personnel, and it takes a little while to allow the dust to settle, if I may put it like that.

The only other thing I would respectfully draw noble Lords’ attention to, and I fully accept there is a certain amount of controversy as to how big this problem is, is that the Solicitors Regulation Authority issued a warning notice on 28 November 2022, which led to that authority undertaking investigations in relation to SLAPP complaints, so we are not without a regulatory instrument to at least hold the line until we are able to legislate. That, as far as one can tell, has had a salutary effect on the practical consequences of SLAPPs. It is not the case that nothing has been done.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, it is with more than a little trepidation that I will speak on this group of amendments, with two noble and learned Lords sat behind me. In his opening observations, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, got the SLAPPs argument a bit back to front. My noble friend Lord Thomas worded the SLAPPs amendment in the way that he did so as not to include the non-economic crime aspects of SLAPPs. That was exactly to avoid the issue that I think the noble and learned Lord highlighted in saying that SLAPPs would drag other criminal definitions into the Bill. My noble friend’s careful wording was designed specifically to avoid that, but no matter.

More generally, there is a functionality in Schedule 9 which, if taken away, we will lose: the ability to put offences in and take them out using regulation. That is included in Clause 83 on page 165. If the noble and learned Lord is successful in his campaign, he needs to consider putting that back in, because in future we do not want to have to use primary legislation to achieve that objective. That is something to look at.

On the final amendment to Clause 183, Amendment 90 —with the names of the four riders of the apocalypse on it—again I take the noble and learned Lords’ points about client privilege. I have one question for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. If a solicitor is taken on and starts through their client privilege to find things that they do not like, I assume that they would be encouraged to walk away from that client. Not having been in that situation, I would like to understand what the professional advice is. Do they carry on and sit behind privilege or is a solicitor essentially encouraged to walk away from a client when they begin to uncover things through that privilege that they find to be illegal or immoral?

There is another debate to be had at the beginning of the next sitting, where we talk about failure to prevent. It is quite clear that the point raised here cuts into the failure to prevent debate. I encourage both noble and learned Lords to be present for that because their point here is absolutely relevant to the failure to prevent debate, and we have to have those two debates almost together. I hope that they will be able to make time on Thursday to join in that debate.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I do not have an enormous amount to add but I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for his comments and for the full explanation of the amendments before us in this group.

I will add a concern about the removal of the schedule naming the offences. Perhaps we will need to have a better understanding of why that would be an advantage, but I remain to be convinced on that point. On Amendment 90, I do not have much to add to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, which lead to a need for greater clarification before we can move on from this.

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

Once again, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. I will first take Amendments 81 to 84, tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton.

Whereas our lengthy debate earlier in the day was directed at expanding the Bill, this is directed at narrowing it. It may not be a total surprise if I say that the Government are not very happy about proposals to narrow the scope of the Bill. As was said, these amendments arise, apparently, with the support of the Law Society and the Bar Council. The Government met the Law Society and the Bar Council on a number of occasions and the question of the definition of economic crime was gone into in some detail, and one is a little surprised to see that this matter is being persisted in.

The list of the offences in Schedule 9 is very close to the list of offences in the Crime and Courts Act 2013, which applies to deferred prosecutions in various cases, which are often relevant in financial matters, and, although not exactly the same, they are based on that definition.

The other introductory comment that I would, if I may, make is that, while the overwhelming bulk of the legal profession upholds the highest standards, much of this Bill would have been unnecessary were that true of all legal professionals. It is against that background that the Government are reluctant to run the risk of introducing loopholes into the Bill by reducing the scope of Schedule 9.

The first point to note is that the definition of economic crime in Clause 180 and Schedule 9 applies right across the Bill and includes the information-sharing measures in Clauses 175 and 176. Those measures, for example, entitle bank A, when it receives from bank B a large sum of money, to ask bank B whether it is a proper transaction, so there is information-sharing between financial institutions. Clause 176 enables a financial institution to notify a platform, for example, that it has concerns about particular transactions or clients. These are pretty essential powers in the Bill, and the definition of economic crime applies to those powers as well. In the Government’s view, it would not be desirable to have two definitions of economic crime across the Bill as a whole.

The definition applies to other legal services measures in Part 5 of the Bill, which amend the Solicitors Regulation Authority fining limit and information provisions. So for consistency and ease of understanding, the Government’s position is that it is sensible to have a single definition of economic crime through the Bill, and not reduce that definition at this stage. Just to make an illustration, there was some suggestion that introducing the word “theft” would go a bit too far. It may in a certain situation be quite difficult to say whether something was fraud or theft—it might well be both—but it is not the sort of argument that the Government feel that one should get into. Having worked with the Law Society of England and Wales and the Bar Council on these matters, the Government have clarified in the Explanatory Notes which offences are likely to be most relevant to the financial sector. They have not excluded them, but they have indicated that fraud, money laundering, terrorist financing, bribery, and any offences under regulations made in relation to money laundering are likely to be the ones that the profession should concern itself with most in practice. But it is important that regulators should not be unduly constrained in the ambit of the definition of economic crime in this Bill.

I can reassure noble Lords that all the existing safeguards that apply to regulators under public law principles, including what is proportionate and fair, continue to apply. Section 3 of the Legal Services Act provides that the Legal Services Board must have regard to the principles of transparency, accountability, proportionate action and consistency and target only those cases where action is required. The new objective in relation to economic crime fits within that framework. One is to an extent tilting at windmills here to try to reduce the scope of this major piece of legislation designed to tackle the very serious problems that noble Lords have now debated at length. On that basis, I shall ask the noble Lord in due course to withdraw his Amendment 81 and not press his other amendments.

I turn to Amendment 90, which affects the regulatory objective. The essential aspect of the amendment is that the objective is too wide and that we should spell out that it is all subject to legal professional privilege. Those are the essential points that were made.

I will take the point about legal professional privilege first. The Government entirely accept and agree with the noble and learned Lord that legal professional privilege is a fundamental principle of English law. It protects the confidentiality of communication between a lawyer and client in terms of legal advice, and ensures complete fairness in legal proceedings in terms of litigation privilege, for example. However, the Government are not able to accept the amendment for the following reasons.