Mental Health Bill [HL]

Baroness Berridge Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th January 2025 Lords Chamber

I briefly mention Amendments 77 and 84 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, which propose the use of the mental health tribunal rather than the county court. My preference would still be the use of the Court of Protection as the correct venue; we certainly cannot have both. However, I do not want to anticipate what the noble Baroness is likely to say or, indeed, what the Minister will want to say in reply.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 77, 82 and 84 in this group. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Meston, for mentioning my amendments in advance. I am adding the other choice for His Majesty’s Government, which is the mental health tribunal, on the basis that the Court of Protection deals with the Mental Capacity Act and, obviously, at the moment, the mental health tribunal deals with claims under the Mental Health Act.

However, there are one or two points of clarification on the process on which it would be useful to hear from the Minister. As I understand it, for the county court to take an application to displace the nearest relative involves means-tested legal aid, whereas the mental health tribunal, I believe, has Legal Services Commission funding—I am talking in old money here—so it is non-means-tested. I am not aware of what the situation is with the Court of Protection. However, an important concern of people making these applications is whether their legal representation is funded. I expect they are in a situation similar to that outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Meston, when he spoke of getting one of these applications for the first time; for many people making these applications, it will be their first time not only making such an application but being in front of any kind of court or tribunal, and at a time of great distress with a relative detained under the Mental Health Act.

Given that the policy document disclosed last week references this process as the solution to certain situations, could the Minister please outline, either today or in a letter, how many county court applications there are, how long people wait for such applications and what the rate of success is? How many of those who go to the county court currently get legal aid?

Is the Minister satisfied that the county court can act swiftly enough to remove a nominated person who is a risk to the patient? An example given, I think either in the review or in the response to the White Paper, is that, if you have a coercive, controlling boyfriend of a 17 year-old girl as the nominated person, or someone who is suspected of having trafficked that young person to the UK, then time is of the essence for practitioners to have that person removed—on evidence, obviously—from having such powers as, for instance, to apply to discharge the patient from hospital.

At this stage, it might also be appropriate to ask the Minister what is meant in the policy document by the concept of “temporary” nominated persons? We had interim nominated persons in the review, but there is no concept that I have seen in the Bill of temporary nominated persons.

Finally, Amendment 82, although it may be in the wrong group, talks about parental responsibility. We have had other discussions in Committee about this, and I think it was in the review; we must make sure, at the very least, that appropriate people with parental responsibility have the relevant information. That is a baseline. Whether we go on to consultation or being able to apply to remove a nominated person, I would submit—and Amendment 82 outlines this—that they should have all the relevant information. I have exempted the person with residual parental responsibility under a special guardianship order. This reveals some of the complications of the Children Act. In this type of situation, the child has been removed to live with someone else; it is similar to a care order, in that the people with parental responsibility remain there, unless there is an adoption order. One has to be careful even about the rights to information, and who with parental responsibility receives that.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, if I may, I shall start with the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Meston. I agree with almost everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has said. I will talk first about which court it should be in. I agree entirely with what the noble Lord, Lord Meston, had said. Oddly, the county court was one of the only courts in which I did not sit, but I have never heard a circuit judge who was very keen on dealing with these particular applications.

Judges of the Family Division sit in the Court of Protection. As I would hope noble Lords would agree, they are somewhat expert in family law, and they do a great deal of mental care and medical cases. As president of the Family Division, I spent probably 50% of my time doing one sort of medical case or other, quite a lot of them mental health cases. The Court of Protection is probably the best court to deal with this. I do not feel very strongly against the mental health tribunal—I just do not think it would be quite as good. Legal aid is an issue, and I assume that it probably would not be automatic in the Court of Protection.

I turn to my Amendment 70. I entirely share what the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has just said. The law is that, until the age of 18, one is a child, regardless of the Gillick case, regardless of being 17 and very nearly grown up. Until a person is 18 they remain, technically, in law, a child. I am very concerned about a child of any age, living at home with parents, who has a mental health problem sufficiently serious to require attention and a nominated person, who is at odds with the parents or guardian and chooses somebody who is totally unsuitable. The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, pointed out that this could be someone who might be trafficking, or an unsuitable boyfriend.

The one group of people not included in new Section 30B(2) in Part 1 of Schedule 2 where it says that, to discharge a nominated person,

“An order under this section may be made on the application of…”

is anybody who has parental responsibility for the child. This means that when a child who is at odds with their parents goes into hospital, when those parents know the boyfriend and that he is unsuitable, those parents have no voice whatever in saying that he is not suitable to be a nominated person. Subject to the important points that the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has made, it seems that there are certain cases where, in what used to be called a custody order or a special guardianship, the parental responsibility of the natural parents is limited.

I would have hoped that the Government would see that, however much they want to empower children, including children under the age of 16, they cannot take away 100% the responsibilities of parents. Under Section 2 or 3 of the Children Act, parental responsibility is defined as having rights as well as responsibilities. I am really talking about the responsibility whereby parents may really want to be able to tell someone, “Look who my daughter is going out with”, but under the Bill they have no right do so, and as far as I am concerned that is utterly wrong.

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Moved by

[Baroness Berridge]

74: Schedule 2, page 73, line 21, at end insert—
“(3) Regardless of whether a person is appointed as a nominated person, if they have parental responsibility that person must be given appropriate and relevant information about care and treatment of a relevant patient.(4) Subsection (3) does not apply to persons with residual parental responsibility for the relevant patient when the patient is subject to a special guardianship order under section 14A of the Children Act 1989.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, along with another amendment in the name of Baroness Berridge, seeks to ensure that regardless of whether persons with parental responsibility are appointed as the nominated person, they should have access to the appropriate and relevant information about care and treatment of the relevant patient (unless a Special Guardianship Order has been made).

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 74 properly sits alongside Amendment 82 in the previous group, so I rise to speak predominantly to Amendments 75, 78 and 79A to 81. This group seeks to ensure that the expansion of choice and autonomy for children and young people under the Bill sits consistently with the child protection law of the Children Act, which I believe the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, was involved in creating.

This is not a new issue. The independent review way back in December 2018 stated:

“There needs to be careful consideration of how the powers and rights of the NP”—


the nominated person—

“will interact with other areas of the system, including care orders, guardianship and child arrangement orders, where the overlap with parental responsibility is particularly important”.

Parental responsibility has been dealt with in a series of amendments by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, so I will not address that. It is regrettable that over six and a half years later, we still have not sorted this matter and there is no draft code of practice for noble Lords to refer to.

However, I am grateful for the meetings the Minister has had with colleagues, and for the policy document disclosed last week, which made small steps. I hope the Minister can confirm that she has met the Minister for Children and Families and DfE officials regarding this matter, as they hold responsibility for the Children Act. I am also grateful that the Children’s Commissioner has now stated her concerns in this aspect, as well as for the excellent work of the Children and Young People’s Mental Health Coalition.

To avoid this being dry law, I will give two quick examples that illustrate the conflict remaining between the proposed reforms and the protections under the Children Act.

First, a 15 year-old child is Gillick competent but still does not quite understand why she has not had any contact with dad. However, there are days of evidence in the family court showing that dad is violent, controlling and coercive; a child arrangements order was made, giving him only what is called letterbox contact. The child appoints dad as the nominated person, and dad of course now has contact. Cannily—these people are canny—on the Thursday before a bank holiday weekend, he applies to have the child discharged. The 72 hours to bar this application pass by the locum’s staff, et cetera—we can all imagine the inquiry—and dad has now taken the child and disappeared. I leave it to the noble Lord, Lord Meston, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, to outline what mum, who has parental responsibility under this Bill, knows is going on. Children and young people should of course be given choice and autonomy—my amendments do not seek to undermine either that or Gillick competency—but surely we must consider circumscribing that when the family courts have, for child protection reasons, restricted the role of adults who should normally care for and love that child or young person.

I turn to the second scenario. A 17 year-old lacks the capacity to appoint so the AMHP is making the decision to appoint the nominated person. However, the 17 year-old is under a special guardship order—maybe they ran away from the special guardian—and was picked up by the police while trying to find dad, whose address they had on them. Dad still has parental responsibility, of course, so the AMHP contacts him and appoints him as the nominated person. Again, he applies for discharge. The child tries to return to the special guardian, who has no idea that the child is about to return home, so no one is there to receive them. The child leaves in distress and harms themselves.

The AMHP can be forgiven for thinking that child special guardianship orders end at 16 years old, as I cannot find them mentioned at all in the Bill. The same scenario would apply to a child in care as paragraph 9 of Schedule 2 to the Bill is blissfully unaware that 16 and 17 year-olds can be under a care order. The AMHP, according to the Bill, is under no duty to appoint the local authority for a 16 and 17 year-old under a care order or a special guardianship order in this scenario.

The solution to the second scenario is in Amendments 79A and 80A; I am grateful that the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, has added her name to the latter. Where any person under the age of 18 is being detained—that is about one-third of young people—the AMHP is given a list of people who must be the nominated person, not just those with parental responsibility and the local authority in relation to care orders, as in the Bill and as outlined in the policy document.

Dominic Marley, the co-chair of the AMHP Leads Network, has written to me. He says that he

“fully supports the amendment … In its current form, the Bill conflicts with other legislation affecting children, such as the Children Act 1989. The Bill fails to consider the various orders relating to parental responsibility as outlined in the Children Act 1989”.

He goes on to say:

“This is a deeply concerning omission and is likely to give rise to confusion and uncertainty in practice. We believe the amendments you have tabled will provide clarity in this regard, clarity which should be provided by primary legislation”.


My final point on this second scenario is that the Minister’s policy document states that, for under-16s who lack competence, as in this scenario, the AMHP will appoint the special guardian as the temporary nominated person. Can the Minister explain why the Bill says that the AMHP must choose the local authority if there is a care order in place, but not if there is a special guardian? I repeat the point made in the previous day in Committee: the mental health code cannot create a “must” unless it is included in the Bill or secondary legislation.

The solution to my first scenario is more difficult, and I accept that it is less likely to occur in practice. Most of the one-third of young people who are detained under the Act will lack capacity by the time they are detained but, if we want to maintain as much of a child’s or young person’s choice and autonomy when they have capacity, we must act when they have capacity. Amendments 75, 78, 80 and 81 disqualify certain people, such as the no-contact parent under a child arrangements order or the residual person with parental responsibility when a special guardianship order has been made. The amendments also mandate certain people who have to be chosen, such as special guardians.

I accept that that is a very clunky way of doing it. Another option is for His Majesty’s Government to forbid certain people rather than mandating anyone. Another option would be to give the job of disqualifying people to the family court by amending the Children Act. Therefore, the court, on making a care order, a child arrangements order, or a special guardianship order—for which it often hears evidence—would name certain people as being disqualified from acting as a nominated person.

So I hope the Minister can clarify her policy document, as it includes the child-in-care scenario where the nominated person is a parent—usually where the child resides—who has their parental responsibility limited. It states that the witness—the person involved in the process—

“would assess the appointment of such an individual as unsuitable due to the potential risks to the child and therefore prevent this”.

Is that mandatory language? If it is, why not use “must” and put it in the Bill? Are the Government actually giving the AMHP, the young person or that witness the ability to go behind the care order of the family court? If the Mental Health Act code says that the witness just has to document that, if it is “should” rather than “must”, do we really want to enable that?

The policy document then immediately says:

“We will set out in the Code of Practice considerations for the witness to make beyond those set out in legislation”—


I am not sure that makes sense—

“including how to make these judgements”.

That now seems to be truly discretionary language. I again outline the three categories from the code: “must”, “should” and “may”. Which one is this? If this is “should” then, as I say, the child can go behind the family court order as long as the witness writes down the reasons. I expect the Minister to be very clear in her response, if we are undermining the authority of the family court.

Amendment 79 is a quick clarification of whether the child or AMHP can appoint more than one person as the nominated person. Amendment 85 adds the grounds of

“not acting in the best interests”

so that the AMHP can remove the nominated person—for instance, if they discover that they have trafficked the child to the UK. That is not just for children and young people but for all patients.

I return to the risks to children and young people in both the scenarios I have outlined. These are not triggered by the AMHPs, and they will not be triggered by poor training, a lack of resources or levels of staffing—nor triggered by those who the family court said could pose a risk to the child or young person. These would be triggered by how His Majesty’s Government currently propose to change the law. In the worst-case, but sadly foreseeable, scenario where a child dies at the hands of a nominated person who had already been known to be a risk, as outlined by the family court, I expect that the Chief Coroner would need informing of your Lordships’ debate. Otherwise, professional and other staff might take all the blame. Also, would the Secretary of State for Education in fact still be able to do a serious case review of the death of that child, or would she not be conflicted? A dangerous person got access to a child because the nominated person process was a backdoor to the Children Act. So can the Minister outline whether the nominated persons part of the Act will be enforced before the consultation on the code of practice she is so often relying on?

Finally, I quote from the policy document again:

“We appreciate that there are complications inherent in the complexity of modern family structures, (e.g. separated parents) in addition to the existing system around children’s legislation (e.g. special guardianships, child arrangement orders). These are not complications which have been created by the Nominated Person policy and they exist in the context of Nearest Relative as well”.


Yes, of course the current situation is complex, but this view in the policy document is not shared by the independent review, by the response to His Majesty’s Government’s White Paper—where these concerns were also raised—or by the Joint Committee, civil society or the Children’s Commissioner. The Minister is alone in this view. I know that, in your Lordships’ House, we are not entitled to see legal advice that His Majesty’s Government obtain, but I hope the Minister can assure the Committee that Treasury counsel with specialisms in the Children Act and mental health have been asked to give an opinion.

The child protections that the Children Act has upheld for decades are so vital. I hope we will come back to this on Report, when I hope the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care and the Secretary of State for Education will lay the necessary government amendments. I beg to move.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 80A, to which my name has been added.

I did not intervene in the first group but I share the general view expressed, which is relevant to this group of amendments, that not enough thought has been given to the interaction between the Mental Health Bill and other key legislation, particularly the Children Act 1989. That concerns me, because that is where really key and important child protection sits. That is a general concern I have.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, like the noble Earl, Lord Howe, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, for introducing an appropriately wide range of scenarios, questions and testing. That is important for the Committee but also for our ongoing work. As the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, said, to describe this area as complex is to use too small a word, and I think we are all wrestling with that to get it in the right place. I know that noble Lords are aware that the work is ongoing, and I thank them for their engagement and interest in this issue. As I said previously, I very much understand the need for a robust process to keep children and young people safe and ensure that only appropriate individuals can take on the role of nominated person, while giving children and young people that right to choose.

I will respond collectively to the amendments put forward in this group. As I set out earlier, we agree that in the vast majority of cases there is an expectation that a parent or whoever has parental responsibility would take on this role, and that would include consideration of special guardians and child arrangement orders. We also agree that, where parental responsibility has been removed due to care proceedings, in the vast majority of cases it is unlikely to be appropriate for such a person to take up this role. My reference to this being a complicated area—

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Perhaps the noble Baroness will let me make a bit of progress.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I think I need to clarify a point of law—I am looking to the noble Lord, Lord Meston. In care proceedings, is parental responsibility removed? I do not believe it is; it remains with the parents. That is very important.

[Lord Meston (CB)]

It certainly is not removed.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

We need to be considering that as one of the scenarios and I would certainly be very glad to give the noble Baroness and noble Lords a more considered response to the very important point that has just been raised.

Under this policy, an approved mental health professional would terminate their appointment if the nominated person is not acting in line with the patient’s interests. I really wish to emphasise this.

For all these reasons and the responses I have given, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken and for the considered nature of the response and the clarification regarding the special guardianship. However, as we have outlined, other people remain having parental responsibility and it seems that under the Bill, as it is only one person, it could be that the residual person still has parental responsibility. It could just be that person under the Bill and not, in that situation, who is appointed.

I am concerned, not only by the outline at the beginning in relation to parental responsibility being removed. I just feel that there is a lack of understanding—with all due respect to the Minister’s diligence, thoroughness and engagement with colleagues—about the depth of the issue that we have here. She mentioned “would” appoint. That seems something that can be under the Mental Health Act code—“would” seems to be that as long as you document your reasons for that, you can move. It seems that from the situation I have outlined, in which the 16 or 17 year-old has been removed from the dad’s care because he has been shown to be, and proven by the family court to be, a danger, he could be appointed as the nominated person. Then we are relying on a speedy process in the county court—which we are not sure we always get legal aid for—to remove him. I am concerned by phrases such as “more flexibility for 16 and 17 year-olds”. Does that include the 16 and 17 year-olds who are under special guardianship or where there is a care order?

It seems that there is a conflict, based on what the co-leader of the AMHPs is saying, what the review has said and what the response says. We have a conflict between two pieces of legislation that we must continue to grapple with. On phrases such as “working with the DfE”, I asked specifically whether there had been a meeting with the Minister for Children and Families. The responsibility for a serious case review sits with that department. If we are to some extent right, this risk to children will manifest itself in an imperfect system. Obviously, there are professionals and clinicians, but we all know of cases that have gone wrong and ended up in inquiries.

I remain concerned by the lack of clarification on legal advice. Legally, in some ways this is fascinating—but it is not fascinating because it involves child protection. I welcome the engagement and I am sure that we will meet again in regard to this, but the severity of the risks that we are exposing, and allowing young people and AMHPs to go behind findings of fact in the family courts made under the Children Act is an incredibly serious issue. I hope that the Minister will be furnished with that kind of geeky legal advice, because for the children’s sake we need that.

However, I am grateful for the manner of her engagement and of course beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 74 withdrawn.