Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Committee stage
Wednesday 11th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, Clause (5)(1) states the following:

“The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision about the units of measurement that are used to express quantities (whether of goods or other things), including provision about … (a) how units of measurement must or may be calculated or determined … (b) how units of measurement must or may be referred to”.


Subsection (2) goes on to state:

“The Secretary of State may also by regulations make provision about … (a) the quantities in which goods must or may be marketed in the United Kingdom, and (b) the units of measurement that must or may be used to express such quantities”.


Subsection (4) states:

“‘unit of measurement’ means any unit of measurement, including measurement of length, area, volume, capacity, mass, weight, time, temperature or electrical current ... ‘goods’ means tangible items”,

and

“‘quantity’ means quantity expressed by number or a unit of measurement”.

Yet again we have a set of provisions that, while seemingly innocuous, give a relevant Secretary of State incredibly wide powers to do pretty much anything they like about pretty much anything they like.

Both the noble Lords opposite will shortly argue that the Government have no plans to replace the British pint as a standard measure for beer. They are both honourable and sincere, and I believe them, but this careless drafting confers the power on a Secretary of State to do exactly that. It is not difficult to imagine some point in the future when the office of the Secretary of State is held by a metric maniac or, perhaps worse, an interfering busybody who decides that they know what is better for the health of the nation than those who make up the population of the nation. Perhaps that does not entail a metric replacement for our pint, but something even worse—for example, an Aussie schooner. With apologies to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, this is an abomination of a vessel that is marginally too large for a sensible sherry, but far too small for a sensible beer.

My Amendment 81 seeks to make sure that this can never happen. It will make the pint safe. It will defend a beleaguered and endangered pub industry from more punishment, and it will guarantee a fundamental tenet of our history. A pint of beer is not a bloodless “tangible item”. It is a tangible institution. It is a link to our history and a part of our heritage. It was formally adopted as a measure for beer in 1824, but was probably used well before then—who knows, maybe even by Anglo-Saxon thanes, when they were on a session in their village hall, drinking what they then called beor and no doubt wondering what to do about the dastardly Vikings. I am reliably informed that they may even have had a word used to describe this community and that is—the spelling is tricky and the pronunciation is trickier—ge beorscipe.

I encourage the Government to accept this amendment on the pint’s formal 200th anniversary. It is straightforward and simple. If they do not, we will return to the subject on Report.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will be brief. The main point I wish to make initially is that the next time someone complains about your Lordships’ House not giving enough time to pass important legislation, I will reference this debate. However, given the attack that we have just had on the Australian schooner, I have to point out to the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, that it evolved organically from the community in 1930s Australia as an unofficial measure. It was a measure of change and of the grass roots making decisions for themselves.

The noble Lord may think that his amendment will save pubs in the UK. I point out to him that, in the first quarter of this year, about 80 pubs closed in England each month. That was a 56% increase on 2023. One of the things that has been suggested might be a saviour of pubs—the noble Lord might choke on his pint at this point—is that we live in a world of change, and sales of low or no alcohol beer have exploded in the past few years. It is very hard to take this amendment seriously.

Despite that, I agree with the noble Lord that there are problems with the Henry VIII nature of the Bill and the way that it allows the Government to do virtually anything. However, picking out one particular small point is not the best way to illustrate that.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Committee stage
Wednesday 20th November 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I say at once that I pay due regard to the Civil Service and the advice I receive, but these are the words of Ministers. There is a judgment here that you do not want to add legislation where you already have it. The point the noble Baroness makes is that the legislation is not being used effectively. The whole point of the Secretary of State for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs’s task force is to look at the progress we are making and to refocus in relation to the circular economy. I hope the noble Baroness will not think that this is a damp squib of an answer because we take what she says very seriously. Of course, we will be happy to meet her and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, to discuss this important matter further.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I reassure the noble Baroness that my fridge is more than 20 years old, and I have a very good mobile-phone repairer.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I guess the noble Lord has chosen his products well and been extraordinarily lucky. I am afraid some of my fridges have not lasted anything like so long.

Arrests and Prison Capacity

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness very much for her remarks, which I very much appreciate. Obviously, much of the debate around sentencing involved a Bill that we may or may not see—we probably will not—so I will talk a bit about what we have done on prison building. We have delivered the largest prison-building programme since the Victorian era, with 10,000 of the 20,000 additional places to be delivered by the end of 2025. We have already delivered about 5,900 of the 20,000 places. Last October, a series of measures was announced that will help to ease the pressure further. I mentioned the Sentencing Bill and we will also further the 20,000 portfolio. In October last year, we announced an investment of £30 million to acquire the land we need to build more prison places, and we are intent on delivering an additional 460 RDCs across the estate. There is a considerable amount of work going on. I accept of course that there are short-term capacity problems, but that is the point of having contingency planning.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to short-term capacity problems, but we have a long-term situation, extending over decades across many different Governments, of very high numbers of people in prison in the UK. The current rate of imprisonment in England and Wales is 146 people per 100,000 of population. By comparison, the Republic of Ireland, the Netherlands, Germany and the Nordic states all have a rate of imprisonment of less than 90 prisoners per 100,000 of population. Surely, the Government being forced to request chief constables to pause non-priority arrests and operations is a reflection of the fact that we have just kept shoving people into jail, without giving the jails the capacity to rehabilitate. That is causing damaging impacts on communities, prisoners’ families and prison workers, as well as on the prisoners, who will nearly all be released back into the community eventually. Is it not time to look again at the continual push to lock up more people, when, as the noble Baroness on the Lib Dem Benches said, there is so much evidence that that is not working?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Baroness raised some very interesting points, which I will address in a second. To be clear, we have not asked police chiefs to stop arresting people, as I have already said. On the impact on communities, I suspect that criminals roaming free probably has a lot more impact on local communities than having them inside. On the international comparisons, I am not sure how we achieve them or draw any meaningful conclusions from them. The fact is that we make our own laws, which is what we are elected to do. Perhaps it will be a Green Party policy that we should let criminals out—good luck.

Passport e-Gates Network Outage

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 13th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Again, I am not particularly qualified to comment on Portugal’s internal systems and processes. Perhaps, since he lives there, the noble Viscount could bring his considerable diplomatic weight to bear and help us out a bit. Those discussions should be ongoing. It is, of course, our oldest alliance, so I am sure there is plenty of good will.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will return briefly to the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, about the new owners of the software provider having full provision for the ending of support for Windows 10. I do not think the Minister answered that, so perhaps he could write to us later about it.

There are broader questions raised by this incident about the robustness and resilience of critical official systems. I have a Written Question down at the moment about their robustness and resilience against the solar storms we are currently experiencing. I will park that to one side, except to note that, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said, external threats will lead to internal breakdowns. We have seen this again and again with the border gate systems. Do the Government have a list or register of the systems for which there has to be an alternative manual arrangement which can deliver at reasonable speed and in reasonable volumes? There is obviously a risk when we are digitising so many systems. Are the Government saying that there are some things for which there has to be a manual emergency system and that they are ensuring that provision?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I answered the noble Lord’s question in that I genuinely do not know, so I shall write. As far as I can tell, the noble Baroness’s question ranged from matters of diplomacy to matters of astronomy. It has certainly covered a wide area. She will not be surprised to know that I am not an expert on either. As to whether there is a list of systems where a manual resilience process needs to be maintained, I do not know. Of course, there are certainly lists of priorities which must be maintained at all costs to maintain national security, border integrity and so on. I do not have this to hand but I will investigate the manual side of things. If there is anything useful to say, I will come back on it.

Family Reunion Visas: Gaza

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Wednesday 24th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in responding to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, the Minister referred to the Government making decisions about special visa schemes on a crisis-by-crisis basis. What criteria do the Government apply in making those judgments? Perhaps the Minister can point me to where it is written down, so that we can all see how the Government are making them.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

It very much depends on the circumstances and other factors. For example, there were separate arrangements made after earthquakes in places like Turkey and Syria.

Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Consideration of Commons amendments
Monday 22nd April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his intervention. He put his points across extremely eloquently, and I agree with all of them.

I say gently to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, that the Bill does comply with international law. It is profoundly moral and patriotic to defend the integrity of our borders, and it is profoundly moral and patriotic to prevent the needless loss of life in the channel and to put the criminal gangs out of business.

I also ask the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, why the Green group is currently a solo act. Where is her partner?

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I have been asked a direct question. I am sure the House would have been delighted to hear from both of us this evening, but we made a choice to have one representative. If the House would like to hear and see more of us, we would welcome being invited to do that.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Speaking personally, I would rather hear a lot less, but there we are.

Rwanda is a safe country that has proven time and again its ability to offer asylum seekers a safe haven and a chance to build a new life. Rwanda has a strong history of providing protection to those who need it and currently hosts over 135,000 refugees and asylum seekers, who have found safety and sanctuary there. Binding provisions in the treaty place obligations on the Government of Rwanda to provide for those relocated under the partnership, and this is long overdue. I put on record my thanks to officials in the Government of Rwanda for all their efforts in delivering this partnership. I commend the Motion to the House.

Strikes (Minimum Service Levels: Border Security) Regulations 2023

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for all the contributions and will address the points that have been made. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has tabled a Motion to regret this statutory instrument because

“the draft Regulations contain policy detail that was not included in primary legislation contrary to the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee; and … given that the impact assessment acknowledges that some workers’ right to take industrial action will be affected or denied… they are too prohibitive”.

I do not agree. The 27th Report of Session 2022-23 of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, published on 2 March 2023, made two recommendations regarding what became the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act. The first was that

“the House may wish to press the Minister to provide an explanation of how the power to set minimum service levels … is likely to be exercised”,

and the second, as I have already said, is that

“the House may wish to press the Minister to provide an explanation of how the power to define ‘relevant services’ … is likely to be exercised”.

I respectfully submit that both those recommendations have now been addressed through the regulations themselves and in this debate.

I also respectfully disagree that the regulations are too prohibitive. The Government committed to introducing statutory minimum service levels on strike days in a range of sectors, including border security. That was to establish a fair balance between the ability to strike and enabling people to go about their daily lives. The ability for staff to take strike action is an integral part of industrial relations. However, the security of our borders is something that we cannot compromise on; that is why this measure is proportionate. We must also consider the disruption caused to, and the costs incurred by, passengers and businesses that expect the essential services they pay for to be there when needed.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked me about the consultation. We are grateful to all those who responded to it. As noted in our formal response, we received 69 online questionnaires and a further nine written responses, but we consider that those who responded have a reasonable expectation of confidentiality, which is why we have not identified them.

In the consultation we ran in the summer, we made it clear that we were considering applying these regulations to Border Force and other organisations. We invited respondents to identify any organisations they thought should be in scope. Following the consultation, we considered it important to include critical passport services in the regulations. Passport services required for the purposes of national security could include, for example, identifying stolen passports and forged documents. In practice, as I said in opening, we think that we would require around a dozen employees from the Passport Office to work on a strike day, if necessary.

Our commitment on conciliation is clear. To partially answer both noble Lords’ questions on Northern Ireland, there are issues in the background with Northern Ireland that we are working through. I will return to those subjects in writing.

The public rightly expect us to maintain a secure border—as I said, that is why this is proportionate— in balance with the ability of workers to strike. The Government believe that these new border security minimum service levels will do that. I hope noble Lords will join me in supporting these regulations, which I commend to the House.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I note that the Minister did not address my admittedly unanswerable question about the next Government. The news from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, might make us wonder when the next Government, or at least the next Prime Minister, might arrive. In light of the hour, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Legal Migration

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. Obviously, the universities and the education sector provide an enormous amount of good to the country in many ways, including, of course, in terms of soft power. As the noble Lord indicated, it is an export industry. We have reconfirmed our intention to attract the best and brightest. Our manifesto committed to establishing the graduate route. More than 100,000 people last year to September 2023 were issued visas for the graduate route. We have asked the Migration Advisory Committee to review this route to ensure that it is fit for purpose and prevent abuse, protecting the quality and integrity of UK higher education. However, as I said earlier, I note the noble Lord’s points and broadly agree.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, following on from the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, on the Government’s own figures they expect there to be 140,000 fewer people coming in through student routes. How much income is expected to be lost to UK universities overall from that? Have the Government made any assessment of the regional impacts of this? There are northern and Midlands cities for whom the universities are a very significant part of their economy, and students and their dependants coming in are a significant contributor to the life and economy of those cities. Have the Government got an idea of the total cost of the 140,000 cut in students and how that cost will be distributed regionally?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, the figures that I have are in terms of sponsored study to the year ending June 2022. There were actually more than 400,000 main applicants granted and 152,000 dependants were granted—so it is the dependants who will not be coming. In terms of dependants, about half of them are adults and only half of them actually work, so I suspect that the economic impact of their non-arrival will be very minimal.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for his questions. Of course, there is no barrier to recruiting people to the Church, as long as £38,700 is paid to them. I do not think that unreasonable, I am afraid. I appreciate that salaries may not be as high in the Church as he might like, never mind the rest of his colleagues, but that is the median salary, as I said earlier, and it is not unfair. As for recruiting to the health and care sectors, I think I answered that question earlier. Again, there are exemptions in place for those people and we obviously value their work and their service here. I do not know whether the family test has been applied. However, we also regard families as very important. If the lady whom the right reverend Prelate referenced is sending the bulk of her money home, one wonders exactly what the economic benefit is to this country as well. That is obviously an unfortunate state of affairs, but it is worth mentioning.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, just to follow up on a previous question, I am currently looking at reports of Home Office modelling that suggests that there are 140,000 fewer students arriving. Perhaps he will write to me about that figure, because it appears to be a Home Office figure.

I want to pick up on the point from the noble Lord, Lord German, about British people bringing foreign spouses and children into the UK. The Minister may be aware that in 2015, the Children’s Commissioner for England produced a report identifying up to 15,000 children who belonged to what were then called Skype families: children whom the Children’s Commissioner said were suffering from stress and anxiety by being separated from a parent by the rules brought in in 2012 that demanded a salary for the sponsoring partner of £18,600 for a partner and even more for children. There have long been complaints that there is no allowance made for the potential income of an incoming spouse, who may well be able to find a job and be a high earner; only the British resident can be counted to sponsor their spouse in.

We are now in a situation where the salaries of 60% to 70% of British workers would not be enough to sponsor a foreign spouse to come into the UK. I have been speaking to people affected by this, many of whom have found that even their MP does not understand the situation. Many people say, “You’re a Briton—of course you must be able to live in your own country with your spouse and your children must be able to come here”, yet 60% to 70% of British people will now be unable to live in their own country with a foreign spouse and will be separated from their children. Do the Government really think that is an acceptable state of affairs?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, as I have indicated, we estimate that only around 25% of dependants work when they come to the UK—half of the adult dependants; the other half are children.

I now have a marginally better answer for the right reverend Prelate on the family test. I can confirm that the policy is compliant under the Human Rights Act, which includes respect for family life.

Justification Decision (Scientific Age Imaging) Regulations 2023

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 27th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this interesting and insightful debate. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for her regret amendment, which I will obviously refute, because the introduction of scientific methods of age assessment is an innovative approach for the UK. It is entirely right that the Government take action to disincentivise individuals from deliberately misrepresenting their age in order to game the system, as well as to safeguard and promote the welfare of genuine children, who have a need to access children’s services. Scientific methods provide additional evidence and create a more consistent system, and there is nothing inhumane about those objectives. I hope that noble Lords will consider each regulation on its merits, and I will do my best to answer all the questions. If I miss any, I will endeavour to write.

The question of accuracy has come up. Determining the age of a young person is an inherently difficult task. The Home Office is aware that there is no current single age-assessment method, scientific or not, that can determine an individual’s age with precision. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord German, there is a risk of harm to both the age-disputed individual and to the public interest through misclassifying children as adults, or adults as children, which the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, referred to—I will come back to this. That is why the UK Government are taking steps to improve the robustness of the age-assessment process. Scientific age assessment will be completed alongside the current Merton-compliant age assessment, and the age-assessment process will remain a holistic assessment. The well-being of the individual will continue to be at the forefront. I am happy to say categorically to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, that scientific methods will not replace, but will be used alongside, Merton. The noble Lord, Lord Winston, asked me how accurate these methods are. For X-rays, I do not know—I will find out—but for teeth X-rays it is two years either side. I will come back to this in more detail in a second.

On international comparators, to which my noble friend referred, the Home Office believes that the negative credibility inference in respect of someone’s claimed age is necessary, logical and proportionate where a person refuses to undergo a scientific age assessment without good reason. It is important to note that negative consequences, such as automatic assumptions, are applied with variations by a number of ECHR signatories, including the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic. The UK is an outlier as one of the very few European countries that do not currently employ scientific methods such as X-rays as part of age assessments.

On our plans for operationalisation, the Home Office wants to specify these methods as soon as possible to pave the way for the introduction of scientific age assessments. The increasing number of age-disputed young people presents safeguarding challenges and puts additional pressure on children’s services, which should be accessed only by genuine children. This is a new and complex process that the Government need to get right. The full plans for integrating scientific age assessments into the existing processes will be set out in good time, and full guidance and assessments will be provided. For now, the Home Office has welcomed the report from the Age Estimation Science Advisory Committee and is making clear steps to proceed with the recommendations and consider others.

Consent was raised by a number of noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton and Lady Lister, the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London. To address the concerns regarding consent, I assure all that no X-ray or MRI image can or will be taken without informed consent from the individual. The Home Office will ensure that the individual has capacity, fully understands the process and is communicated to in a child-friendly and clear way. Interpreters will be available to assist with understanding information, and documents will be translated into a language the individual understands. If the individual refuses to consent to a scientific age assessment, they will continue to proceed with the current Merton-compliant age assessment. Those who are clearly children will be identified as part of the initial age assessment and not included in the cohort for an age assessment.

It is the Home Office’s policy to refer individuals for an age assessment only when there is some doubt about their age—specifically, where that individual’s physical appearance and demeanour do not very strongly suggest that they are significantly over 18. This threshold is set purposefully high to ensure that individuals can be given the benefit of the doubt. As a result, only those whose ages are in genuine doubt would be referred for this scientific age assessment.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister has repeated a statement he made in his introduction about it being only the clear-cut cases. Can he explain how, in the year to August, in just one city—Leeds—30 children arrived, having been assessed as adults by the Home Office on initial arrival, and were immediately identified by people in Leeds as children? Will those children not face the potential of ionising radiation and other medical procedures as a result of this regulation?

Cybersecurity

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 3rd July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point, and one I inquired about this morning. There is a considerable exchange of information with our friends and allies and other interested countries across the world. It is perhaps worth pointing out that the Department of Justice in the States has just reissued guidelines for prosecutions only. Guidance and prosecutorial discretion are major features of the American way of doing it; we are going a slightly different route and seeking consensus, but of course we will consult.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister may be aware of reports out this morning that Barts Health NHS Trust has been hacked, potentially by a ransomware group of thieves—I suppose that is the right word—and that 7 terabytes of data may have been taken control of, which of course may well involve confidential personal medical data. Does the Minister agree that it is really important that the NHS workforce plan includes and considers the NHS’s IT needs and IT skill needs? Is that something the Minister is talking about with the health department?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I have not spoken about it directly with the health department, but I note from other debates that we have had in your Lordships’ House over the past few months that a skills shortage in the area of computers, data and whatnot is a problem across all economies, not just ours.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Report stage
Tuesday 27th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for speaking to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and my noble friend Lord Agnew of Oulton for his amendment. These amendments seek to add further parliamentary scrutiny on economic crime matters.

However, I have been clear throughout the previous debates on this topic that it is the Government’s view that there is already more than sufficient external scrutiny in the areas outlined by the noble Lords. These amendments are therefore duplicative, and if accepted would lead to agencies and government departments being caught in resource-intensive reporting requirements that would have no real benefit to parliamentarians, detracting from their core roles of tackling economic crime. I have noted what my noble friend has said, and the Government are of course more than committed to doing the things he suggests.

Amendment 128 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, would require the Government to issue a report on the performance of agencies and departments in tackling economic crime. I am aware of the strength of his feeling on the resourcing, performance and co-ordination of operational agencies. I hope that the sessions we have facilitated for him with Companies House and the Serious Fraud Office will have gone some way to reassuring him on this.

I can also reassure him and the House that the Government are ensuring that the response to economic crime has the necessary funding. The combination of 2021’s spending review settlement and private sector contributions through the new economic crime levy will provide funding of £400 million over the spending review period. The levy applies to the AML-regulated sector and will fund new or uplifted activity to tackle money laundering, starting from 2023-24.

In addition, a proportion of assets recovered under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 are already reinvested in economic crime capability. Under the asset recovery incentivisation scheme—ARIS—receipts paid into the Home Office are split 50:50 between central government and operational partners, based on their relative contribution to delivering receipts. In 2021-22 this resulted in £142 million being redistributed to POCA agencies. That should provide the necessary reassurance on resourcing and funding. Given what I hope to have shown is a significant amount of reporting, external scrutiny and indeed funding and resource, I ask the noble Baroness, on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, not to press Amendment 128.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I refer to a comment made by another Minister at the Dispatch Box that we will come back to economic crime and fraud again and again. I have no doubt about that. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 125.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Committee stage
Tuesday 9th May 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords, who have made some extremely thought-provoking points in this debate. I will do my best to address them all.

Scrutinising the activity of government is obviously a key function of Parliament, and of course the Government are entirely supportive of it. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Browne, that this particular part of the government machinery is always grateful for any help that is offered and will receive it in that spirit. However, the amendments in this group are unnecessary, as they are duplicative of existing reporting arrangements and scrutiny structures.

On investor visas, I take my noble friend Lord Leigh’s points. If done in the right way, they are potentially an important engine of economic growth—that should be acknowledged. Of course, we should not forget that they were introduced by a Labour Government and maintained during the coalition years. However, on Amendment 102, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, and moved by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, I am aware that there are concerns about how the now-closed tier 1 investor route operated—in particular, that it was used by those relying on funds that had been illegitimately acquired and those who may have posed a wider risk to the UK’s national security.

It was because of those concerns that the Government committed in the first place to the review of the visas issued under the route between 2008 and 2015. As has been acknowledged, the Home Secretary made a Written Ministerial Statement on 12 January setting out the findings of that review. This included that the review had identified a minority of individuals connected to the tier 1 investor visa route who were potentially at high risk of having obtained wealth through corruption or other illicit financial activity or being engaged in serious and organised crime. The Statement of 12 January represents the Government’s substantive response to the commitment to undertake a review and publish its findings, including its findings in respect of economic crime.

Obviously, there was a delay; we are aware that considerable time elapsed between the commissioning of the review and the setting out of those findings. However, delay is regrettable but not unreasonable when issues of national security are at stake. Let me expand on that a little, if I may. It would have been preferable had the review been able to include more information about specific individuals but we have had to act sensibly and responsibly with regard to the UK’s national security; this includes striking the right balance between setting out the review’s broad findings and observing the constraints on disclosing sensitive details, which must be withheld, at the request of our operational partners, to protect our border and the vital work of our law enforcement agencies.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, raised the subject of party-political donations. Without getting into a slanging match on this subject, I think it is worth restating that UK electoral law already sets out a stringent regime of spending and donation controls that prioritise transparency and safeguard the integrity of our elections. All political parties recognise that third-party campaigners and candidates must record their election spending and report it to either the Electoral Commission or their local returning officer. This information is all publicly available. The measures in the Elections Act 2022 also updated the political finance regulatory framework by increasing transparency and fairness and strengthening the controls against ineligible foreign spending on electoral campaigning. That is a fairly comprehensive transparency regime concerning the funding of political parties.

The House has considered similar amendments to other legislation, most recently during the passage of the National Security Bill. As before, the Government’s view is that this amendment is not necessary. The Government have set out the key findings of the review of the operation of this route and have acted to close it. I therefore ask the noble Lord, Lord Fox, to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister suggested that it was the inability to identify individuals that meant that some aspects of the report could not be released. I think that everyone understands the retraction of names where necessary, but surely that would not prevent the release of absolute figures rather than a summary of the figures.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

As I said, it was also to do with the disclosure of sensitive details related to operational partners—the sorts of things that protect our border and the work of law enforcement agencies.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for tabling Amendment 104, to which I will now speak. The impact of fraud and economic crime affects the whole of our society. The cost of fraud to the UK runs into the billions and is assessed by the National Crime Agency to be the most common crime type in England and Wales. We take this threat type seriously and have delivered a strengthened approach to reduce its impact. Obviously, as I referenced, the fraud strategy is one part of that; I will come back to it in a moment. The NCA currently leads the national response to serious and organised crime, including economic crime. As predicted, the NCA’s director-general is accountable to the Home Secretary and, through the Home Secretary, to Parliament.

The agency already publishes an annual plan and an annual report. The annual plan sets out how it intends to exercise its functions in co-ordinating the operational response to serious and organised crime, having regard to the Home Secretary’s strategic priorities and the director-general’s operational priorities. The annual report details its performance over the previous financial year, including efforts to tackle economic crime. The NCA also reports annually on the impact of suspicious activity reports in tackling economic crime and, as I set out earlier in response to Amendments 93 and 95 in the previous group, in respect of UWOs. Given this current reporting and the potential for duplication, the Government do not believe that this amendment is required at this time, so I ask the noble Lord, Lord Fox, not to press it.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, for his Amendment 106B. Before I get into the amendment itself, let me say that I take the noble Lord’s points about the diversity of response to the sorts of crime that are being discussed. Of course, that partly reflects the diversity of the crimes being investigated, as he will be aware. The fact is that this is a fast-moving, rapidly evolving space; there is no doubt that the operational response to it reflects that particular set of circumstances.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for their amendments in this group. I also thank all noble Lords for speaking in this debate.

I turn first to Amendment 103, which was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, but spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Oates. If I may, I associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby: the noble Lord, Lord Oates, made an incredibly powerful and eloquent case in moving this amendment 103, which also spoken to by the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Wheatcroft. Ensuring that those who are responsible for the most egregious acts of corruption are held to account is obviously vital. There should be no tolerance towards those who steal from the public to satisfy personal greed. The Government wholeheartedly endorse the premise that this amendment seeks to advance. The international community can and must do more to deter and punish acts of corruption.

The Government are taking robust action to ensure that the UK leads by example. That is why, in March, we published the second public-private economic crime plan, to which I referred in our debate on the previous group of amendments, which outlines ambitious actions to prevent the UK’s open economy being exploited by criminals and corrupt actors. The Government are also developing a new UK anti-corruption strategy to build on the progress made by the previous strategy and outline a refreshed approach to tackling corruption and illicit finance both in the UK and internationally.

The recently published fraud strategy also sets out the Government’s commitment to raise the priority of fraud on the international stage. We will drive forward global action through developing stronger relationships with international partners, culminating in a global fraud summit chaired by the Home Secretary and held in the UK next year. The summit will bring together leaders from Governments, law enforcement and the private sector to announce the ambition to deliver a comprehensive and co-ordinated approach to tackling fraud over the next five years.

The Government have consistently invested in efforts to bring those responsible for corruption to justice. The international corruption unit in the National Crime Agency is a specialist capability that investigates corruption cases with UK links.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

On the summit, the problem with ideas such as that put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, about a transatlantic council or similar, is that it would be focused on global north countries. Can the Minister assure me that there will be full representation of global south countries at the summit he just outlined and that the UK will provide resources to ensure that some of the least developed countries, which are some of the biggest victims of this, are also able to participate in that summit?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I cannot provide that reassurance; I do not know who will be involved, but I will endeavour to find out and will write.

I shall return to where I was in my speech. In addition, the UK leads and hosts the International Anti-Corruption Coordination Centre—the IACCC—which brings together specialist law enforcement officers from multiple agencies around the world to tackle allegations of corruption. The IACCC has helped to secure convictions in high-profile money laundering cases, including in Malaysia and Angola. In 2022 alone, the IACCC identified more than £380 million of stolen and hidden assets.

I forgot to mention part of my previous paragraph. Since 2006, 30 people and companies have been convicted of corruption offences and more than £1.1 billion of stolen assets have been frozen, confiscated or returned to developing countries. That is in relation to the international corruption unit in the NCA.

Anti-social Behaviour Action Plan

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I take what the right reverend Prelate says very seriously. She raised very interesting points. She will appreciate that it is above my pay grade to commit to look at definitions and so on, but I will certainly take that back and make sure that discussions are advanced on the subject.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I declare my position as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. Paragraph 71 of the Anti-Social Behaviour Action Plan refers to the youth investment fund, which it says is

“investing over £300 million in … new and refurbished facilities”.

Can the Minister confirm a report this afternoon from Civil Society that said that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has, given the “challenging financial climate”, just given £31 million of what was previously a £380 million capital fund for this programme back to the Treasury? This programme was announced as a £500 million plan in 2019 by the then Chancellor, Sajid Javid. Can the Minister confirm that this is indeed a cut in the provision for this capital programme? Further, can the Minister comment on the fact that local authority spending on youth clubs in 2020-21 was £379 million—a 74% real cut over the previous decade? How will the Government be able to deliver on this plan without youth clubs, which are an important way of involving young people and children in communities, giving them a place to go and a route towards the future?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I can neither confirm nor deny the first part of the noble Baroness’s question because I have not seen the report, so I do not have detailed knowledge of the situation to which she refers. I go back to my answer in my initial remarks, which is that 1 million extra hours of youth services are planned under this programme. We will invest over £500 million to provide high-quality local youth services so that, by 2025, every young person will have access to regular clubs and activities, adventures away from home and opportunities to volunteer—the sort of life-enriching stuff that we would probably all take for granted. I hope they make the most of those opportunities.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, on a different subject, the Statement refers to cracking down on illegal drugs. This would seem to be entirely going against the advice of the National Police Chiefs’ Council, which in December was recommending the extension nationwide of its very successful schemes piloted in Durham and Thames Valley where, instead of prosecuting users of hard drugs such as heroin, cocaine and ecstasy, users were offered access to addiction services. At that time, when the Government were talking about being harsher on drug users, the Association of Directors of Public Health wrote to the Government to protest at the plan to criminalise the vulnerable and double down on a failed model. Has the war on drugs not clearly failed over decades? Why are the Government not taking advice from experts and the police on the direction of travel on how to deal with what is clearly a huge blight on the lives of individuals and on communities?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, it sounds to me as if the noble Baroness is asking whether we should decriminalise or go in that direction. We have no plans to do so. Our approach on drugs remains clear. We must prevent drug use in our community, support people through treatment and recovery and tackle the supply of illegal drugs. There is a substantial body of scientific and medical evidence to show that controlled drugs are harmful and can damage people’s mental and physical health and our wider communities. The decriminalisation of drugs in the UK would not eliminate the crime committed by the illicit trade, nor would it address the harms associated with drug dependence or the misery it can cause. Of course we take the plight of addicts seriously, and I do not think anything in this anti-social behaviour plan will make life harder for them. The point is to go after the anti-social behaviour; it is about the behaviour, not their plight.

Prostitution

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Tuesday 21st February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking in response to the report of the House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee on Prostitution (Third Report, Session 2016–17, HC 26); and in particular, the recommendations on (1) decriminalising soliciting; and (2) amending brothel-keeping laws to allow independent sex workers to operate together indoors for safety.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, following the committee’s report, the Government commissioned research on the prevalence and nature of sex work. This did not lend itself to clear recommendations on a new approach. We continue to engage with the police and others, with a focus on reducing the harm that can be associated with prostitution. We know there are links between brothels and organised criminal gangs and have no plans to amend legislation in this area.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I thank the Minister for his Answer. I note that the Independent reported in December that the National Police Chiefs’ Council’s lead on prostitution and sex work said he was working alongside the Government to reassess the brothel-keeping legislation particularly. His words were

“I don’t think that is helpful.”

This occurs, of course, in the context of the cost of living crisis. To quote a sex worker from Leeds:

“We’re in the middle of a cost of living crisis, and although sex work is legal there aren’t any regulations and safe places for people to work legally, and the wages haven’t gone up at all. Survivalist sex work is a massive issue”.


In December, the talk was of action.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

If you will let me. The talk in December was of action. Are the Government going to urgently look at this question, particularly in light of the cost of living crisis?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Baroness is quite right. The DCC and the Safeguarding Minister had an introductory conversation at the end of January in which they discussed all those issues. The Safeguarding Minister highlighted that the Government are not minded at present to seek to change the law, based partly on a lack of unequivocal evidence. On the cost of living crisis, we are obviously extremely concerned to hear of women who feel they have no other choice but to turn to sex for survival. We are committed to ensuring that no one finds themselves in this position.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse: Final Report

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Statement made in the other place says, in summary:

“Victims need to know … that they will be heard and protected.”


I will pick up a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sanderson, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who focused on the issues of the justice system. Abusers will of course seek out the most vulnerable: those who are the most excluded from society, including young people who may not be in education, employment or training; asylum-seeking children, as many noble Lords have identified; and those from particularly economically and socially disadvantaged communities. For them to be genuinely heard and to be able to talk to a sympathetic ear, resources will be needed in places such as schools and with their GPs and social workers—indeed, if one can imagine it, with immigration officers and border staff. Will the Minister acknowledge that there needs to be adequate resources in all those institutions where vulnerable children will encounter potentially responsible adults? The resources need to be there to enable those institutions to react appropriately.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Of course, I acknowledge that resources need to be adequate.

Food Insecurity in Developing Countries due to Blockade of Ukrainian Ports

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Thursday 21st July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Well, I have one sentence, to finish, about that transnational land ownership. In the Victorian-era British Empire, men who stood in this very Chamber forced Indian soldiers, abused into submission by the vicious repression after the Great Rebellion, to guard trains that were taking away desperately needed food from their wives and children, to be shipped to these shores—

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, that is a very long sentence.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Will we tolerate the same thing happening in the 21st century?

Refugees (Family Reunion) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

2nd reading
Friday 8th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, for raising this important and sensitive issue; I extend those thanks to her colleague, the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, who I know has also been very persistent on this subject.

I thank noble Lords for the thoughtful, and in many cases powerful and passionate, contributions we have heard today. I join the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, in singling out the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. I have not had the opportunity to say this from the Dispatch Box before, but I have long been an admirer of his—indeed, since before I came into this House. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger; I was moved by her points on a sense of abandonment. I will read the accounts to which she referred because I would like to know more about them.

Many noble Lords referenced integration assessments. These sit outside the Home Office; they are a separate departmental issue. I think they are probably for the Department for Education, although I would need to confirm that. I will, however, raise the subject with that department, and I commit to write; I cannot go further on that at this point.

I begin by reassuring noble Lords that we listen carefully to their contributions. Indeed, this Government fully support the principle of family unity and share their concerns for those families who have been separated by conflict or oppression. It is for precisely this reason that the Government already have a comprehensive framework for reuniting refugees with their families here in the UK. I remind noble Lords that this framework is set out in the Immigration Rules and our refugee family reunion policy.

The Government’s policy fully recognises that families can become fragmented because of the nature of conflict and persecution and the speed and manner in which those seeking protection are often forced to flee their own country; we have heard many such heartbreaking stories throughout this debate. The family reunion policy allows those recognised as refugees or granted humanitarian protection in the UK to sponsor their spouse or partner and children under the age of 18 to join them here if the family unit was formed before their refugee sponsor fled their country of origin. This has seen more than 41,000 individuals reunited with their refugee family members since 2015—a significant number that highlights the policy’s success as a safe and legal route for families to reunite in the UK.

I would point out that not only is there no fee to make a refugee family reunion application, but sponsors are also not required to meet any financial or maintenance requirements to be reunited. This is extended to ensure that the immediate family of refugees can reunite here in the UK, without unnecessary barriers. There are also existing rules in place for extended families of refugees in the UK to sponsor children where there are serious and compelling circumstances. Further, our policy is clear that refugees can sponsor adult-dependent relatives living overseas to join them where, due to circumstances such as age, illness or disability, that person requires long-term personal care that can be provided only by relatives here in the UK.

The Government recognise that some applicants do not meet the current rules. That is why the policy additionally makes it clear that there is discretion to grant leave, outside of the Immigration Rules, which caters for extended family members in exceptional circumstances: for example, young adult sons or daughters who are dependent on family here and living in dangerous situations.

As noble Lords will be aware, the Government completed their review of safe and legal routes last year and laid a report in Parliament on 22 July 2021 confirming that the UK wants to be bold and ambitious in the safe and legal routes it provides. On family reunion, we have further clarified in the Immigration Rules the range of scenarios in which exceptional circumstances may be engaged, so that our decision-makers have the right tools to make consistent decisions while applicants will have greater transparency on how applications will be assessed. The new Immigration Rules came into force on 28 June, as has been noted. Alongside them, we have also improved our guidance to provide clarity about the application process to make it easier for applicants to understand what is expected of them.

This Bill would allow for potentially tens of thousands of extended family members to be entitled to come here, with challenging implications for our local authorities and public services. Expanding the policy to extended family would absolutely have a significant impact on already stretched public resources. We need to ensure our limited resources are focused on helping the most vulnerable. Further, we are clear that significantly expanding our policy to enable children to sponsor family members goes against our safeguarding responsibilities. It is highly likely that this would create further incentives for more children to be encouraged, or even forced, to leave their family and risk extremely dangerous journeys to the UK in order to later sponsor relatives.

I accept that this is disputed but, as an aside, we know that this is something a number of EU states have experienced, so it would achieve the opposite outcome to that desired by the Bill. Such an approach would open children up to a huge exploitation risk, which completely contradicts the hard work and commitment the Home Office has made in protecting children from modern slavery and exploitation. We refuse to play into the hands of criminal gangs, and therefore cannot extend this policy to allow child refugees to sponsor family members into the UK. Such a move would undoubtedly risk more children being encouraged, or even forced, to leave their families and risk hazardous, potentially life-threatening, journeys to the UK—potentially in the hands of criminal gangs.

I must also stress that while family unity is a key priority under this policy, your Lordships will appreciate that we have a range of aims further to this, including ensuring that we have reasonable control over immigration and that public services, such as schools and hospitals, are not placed under unreasonable pressure. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked how, in that case, we could square it with granting a million visas for higher-paying jobs. I would have thought that the clue is in the question: they are higher-paying jobs, so they impose less of a strain on public services, particularly social housing and what have you.

Article 8 of the ECHR, the right to respect for family and private life, is a qualified right. It is therefore the prerogative of a responsible Government to consider the economic well-being of the country and balance Article 8 with the interest of the public purse.

The Bill also proposes reinstating legal aid in family reunion cases. However, I remind noble Lords that legal aid for refugee family reunion may already be available under the exceptional case funding scheme, where failure to provide legal aid would mean a breach or a risk of breach of the individual’s human rights, subject to means and merits tests. In 2019 the Government amended the scope of legal aid so that separated migrant children are able to receive civil legal aid for applications by their family members and extended family members. This includes entry clearance, leave to enter or leave to remain in the UK, made under the Immigration Rules or outside the rules, on the basis of exceptional or compassionate and compelling circumstances.

Legal aid is paid for by taxpayers and, as noble Lords will understand, resources are not limitless. It is important that it is provided for those most in need, including those who seek protection. As I set out earlier—

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I thank the Minister for giving way. Can he say in how many cases such legal aid has been granted? If he cannot now, perhaps he could write.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I will have to write the noble Baroness. I am sorry, I do not know.

As I set out, the Government’s family reunion policy is designed to welcome the immediate family members of those recognised as needing protection in the UK, but we also provide protection to the most vulnerable direct from regions of conflict and instability. Sadly, global humanitarian need continues to grow, with over 100 million people around the world forced from their homes and around 27 million refugees. I reiterate the UK’s generous resettlement offers, which are an integral component of our response to this challenge, addressing the needs of some of the most vulnerable refugees. The UK provides safe and legal routes for tens of thousands of people to start new lives here, through the new global UK resettlement scheme, as well as the community sponsorship and mandate resettlement schemes.

As has been referred to by many noble Lords, in January, the Government launched the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, providing up to 20,000 women, children and others at risk with a safe and legal route to resettle in the UK. I need to make it absolutely clear, particularly in reference to the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, that no children are detained in hotels. We have sought to provide a comfortable and supportive environment for children while they await permanent placement.

In March, in response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, we launched the Ukraine family scheme and the Homes for Ukraine Scheme, both of which are uncapped and have allowed hundreds of thousands of individuals to seek sanctuary in the UK. I should point out how these schemes clearly demonstrate the commitment made by the Government’s new plan for immigration to strengthen our safe and legal routes to the UK for those in need of protection. The concessions put in place have been designed to address the very specific set of circumstances that have unfolded in Ukraine. These are time-limited and the honest answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, about what the difference is, is that it is Putin’s war.

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about the Dubs scheme, the Government did not shut it down; it was a one-off commitment that was completed. I cannot really argue with the numbers; I am not in a position to do that—it may well not have been the right number in the first place—but it was not shut down.

Ukraine: Visa Restrictions for Refugees

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 28th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid I do not have those statistics to hand. I will have to write to the noble Lord.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I want to follow on from the question of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, about Ukrainians who are settled here with elderly parents. I think there is a lack of clarity about this. There seems to be some provision if those parents need care, but of course a technical provision of needing care under some kind of medical provision is different from a confused older person who is extremely unsafe and just needs their family. Will people in that situation be allowed to come to the UK and stay in the UK? Will their families be able to go and pick them up from wherever they are in Europe and bring them here safely?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that question. I can only refer back to the answer I gave earlier on family concessions. My understanding is that those things will be dealt with under those rules.

Nationality and Borders Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Tuesday 1st February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I think that my noble friend might be speaking to the next group of amendments.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise to speak on behalf of my noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, who signed both Amendments 46 and 54, in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and others, about no recourse to public funds. The question has been clearly set out by the noble Baronesses, Lady Lister, and the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, added a great deal to this debate, which has been very rich thus far.

I must admit to a certain sense of déjà vu, in that we have had much the same cast as in debates on the Domestic Abuse Act, discussing much the same issues around the absolute horror of no recourse to public funds. We are talking about a particular group of people in that situation now, but I state loudly and clearly: no one who is here as part of UK society should have no recourse to public funds. That is inhumane, unjust and damaging to our society for some of the reasons that the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, just set out.

It is interesting that it is almost two years since Boris Johnson claimed not to know that this status existed—that he did not know that there was such a thing as no recourse to public funds. At that time, he promised to review the policy, but I understand that there has been no overall review of no recourse to public funds, although I would be very pleased if the Minister could tell me that I am wrong about that.

But I want to add one point, which goes back to the group that we discussed before the dinner break. The Minister tried to clearly draw a line between differentiation and discrimination. I think that no recourse to public funds is very clear cut and obvious: you either have access to money, as the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, said, if you are in work and need extra support to survive and feed yourself, or you do not. How can it be anything but discrimination if you do not have access to that money, despite being in exactly the same situation as the person beside you, doing the same job?