Disposable and Reusable Nappies
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts(3 years, 1 month ago)
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Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle
To ask His Majesty’s Government what action they plan to take following the publication of the DEFRA report Life Cycle Assessment of Disposable and Reusable Nappies in the UK 2023.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, in begging leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, I acknowledge support in work on this issue from the reusable nappy industry-linked Nappy Alliance.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)
My Lords, Defra’s assessment of disposable and reusable nappies concluded that no type of nappy clearly had better or worse environmental performance across its life cycle. We have no plans to take further policy action on nappies at this time. We hope that industry will use the report to continue to improve the environmental impact of nappies, and that it helps consumers make the best choice for them.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
I thank the Minister for his Answer, although I find it somewhat astonishing. I am not quite sure that he is looking at the same report I am, given that it shows that reusables are 25% lower for carbon emissions right now. If you have a green electricity supplier they are 93% better, and in terms of material outputs they are 98% better. This report clearly shows that if the Government want to deliver on their waste reduction, carbon emission and plastic pollution targets, as well as saving so many families money, they should work towards reusables.
Lord Benyon (Con)
I wish it was as simple as that. The noble Baroness is absolutely right with her figures on the global warming potential of reusable versus disposal nappies. However, reusable nappies have a higher environmental impact in 11 categories. These include terrestrial acidification, marine eutrophication—the noble Baroness shakes her head, but it is in the report—fresh water and marine ecotoxicity, an issue she has raised with me before, human carcinogenic toxicity, mineral resource scarcity and domestic water consumption. If you look at this in a one-sided way, as somebody once said, with every action there is an equal opposite reaction.
REACH (Amendment) Regulations 2023
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts(3 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Monks (Lab)
My Lords, I too have experience of dealing with REACH at the European level. When I was the general secretary of the European Trade Union Confederation, we worked with the British chemical industry, including the Chemical Industries Association—often against opposition from the powerful German chemical industry lobby, which was hostile to the whole concept of REACH. I was very pleased when we got it through; as my noble friend Lord Stansgate just outlined, it was not without considerable difficulty and this is an extremely complex area.
I will make two points today. First, I want to give a little tribute to the Chemical Industries Association, which I have found over the years to be as good a lobby group as any in the business world in terms of taking a broad view of issues, as well as looking after its members’ interests. That is important.
I am particularly concerned to ensure that in the extension that has been given, which I support, we continue to adhere to EU REACH, because we have nothing at the moment and the game plan is there. No doubt we will have some variations on it in due course, and I accept that, but in the meantime, in the absence of a British UK-EU arrangement, I hope that the Minister can ensure that the British industry follows the EU rules until they are replaced.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I rise to express significant green concern about this SI and the general direction of travel. We must look at the framework within which we are considering this. We have recently seen published peer-reviewed research showing that the world has exceeded the planetary boundary for novel entities. We have natural systems and, increasingly, human health systems, that cannot cope with the burden of novel entities. I usually talk about those as shorthand for pesticides, plastics and pharmaceuticals, but it is basically what is covered by the REACH directive.
There is now increasing scientific and public concern about the impact of these on environmental health and public health. PFAS forever chemicals are one example of an area that we are coming to understand in our understanding of biology. Most organisms on this planet are structurally holobionts, made up not just of their own entities but of bacteria, fungi and viruses. We are grasping the sheer complexity of life on this planet far more than we did 10 or 15 years ago, and the impact of these chemicals is increasingly understood—for example, the impact of chemical exposure creating antimicrobial resistance, a whole new area of research where there have been considerable advances in the last few years.
In that context, it is interesting to look at some figures. I pay tribute to CHEM Trust, which has provided me with a large amount of information on this issue, with significant expressions of concern. If we take the substances of very high concern, the UK has not added any hazardous chemicals to its list since we left the European Union, while 24 substances have been added to the EU’s list. Defra is considering just four out of 10 substances for the UK list which the EU added in 2021 but is yet to publish assessments on them. In the meantime, another five substances were added to the EU list in 2022 and nine since January this year. This is happening at a very significant pace, and we are falling further and further behind. There seems to be no interest. Can the Minister suggest how we might catch up with the EU in this specific area?
There are obvious public and environmental health issues here, but there are also issues for trade. If our companies are operating on our standards, they will increasingly be excluded from other markets. The Prime Minister has this week been speaking of the desire to be world-leading in innovation. When substances of very high concern are put on that list, there is a push on companies to look for alternatives—to innovate and find new ways of doing things. If we are not creating an environment in which that is likely to happen, then even in the Government’s own terms we are falling behind on the global stage of science and innovation.
Picking up on the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Monks, it is worth noting that the UK was one of the driving forces behind the creation of EU REACH and the restriction of chemicals regulations in 2007. Last night, I was at an Industry and Parliament Trust meeting, talking about trade. I heard there an expert in standards talking about how the UK has in recent decades been a leader in pushing the creation of ISO standards. However, it is our industry, our scientists and our NGOs that led that push towards higher standards. The Government must keep up, and support the drive in our industry, our NGOs and our scientists.
I shall pick up the points made by other noble Lords about the lack of regulatory capacity. The National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee have pointed to this lack, which is creating serious problems that are being identified on every side. Others have already spoken about the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which also highlights concerns about human health and the environment, and the HSE’s capacity. We are hearing the same messages from all angles.
In particular, the impact assessment says that the absence of data
“could lead to reduced regulatory oversight and regulatory delays”,
but suggests that it would not be significant because other sources of information can be drawn on. However, the publicly available information about registered substances in EU REACH does not include details on safety tests, uses and how the industry reached its conclusion on the hazards and risks of substances.
The time factor needs to be focused on, as does the fact that we know that today, at this moment, we are exposing everyone in Britain and every bit of the UK’s natural systems to harm from chemicals that we continue to release into the environment when we know we should not be doing so. That will keep piling the costs on. The slower we operate, the more costs there will be. Think of the pressure on our NHS and on one of the nature-depleted corners of this battered planet: if we act slowly, the costs will just keep mounting up. For example, I mentioned PFAS forever chemicals: once they are there, we cannot get rid of them. There is no going backwards if we allow their use to continue.
I have some very specific questions. Will the UK look towards mirroring, moving faster than and eventually matching the EU’s pace of action, particularly on the chemicals of most concern? The UK Government talk about whether a control is right for GB. Do the Government see lower standards as being in some way better for us? How can the Minister say that lower standards of chemical regulation and safety are better for us?
An issue on which I have done a great deal of work and have a great deal of concern is microplastics. The Committee will remember microbeads. Indeed, the Government acted a few years ago on microbeads, but many intentionally added microplastics are still not covered by that legislation, which the REACH work programme of 2022-23 indicated as one of its five priorities. However, it has not yet published an evidence review or initiated any restrictions. Can the Minister tell me when we are likely to see that evidence review on intentionally added microplastics? In the light of that question, I note that EU national experts recently voted to adopt restrictions at the REACH Committee. That is now going to the European Parliament and the European Council, so the EU has steps in progress on these microplastics. When will we?
To be really concrete and scientific, and to focus on the importance of this for environmental and, potentially, human health, we—by which I mean scientists collectively: the human race—have identified the new disease of plasticosis. That was identified in one species of seabird, because we have looked for it in only one species of seabird. We are choking this planet with plastics and we have no idea what that is doing to us or to nature.
The Duke of Montrose (Con)
My Lords, I had the honour to serve on the EU Energy and Environment Sub-Committee when it considered Brexit and the trouble with EU REACH, in that it was not in the least transferable so it is totally dependent on grandfathering, unless there is a stream in which we allow people to apply for new chemicals. We obviously started from zero in our collection and we rely on manufacturers to submit the EU REACH approvals. Do we keep track of how extensive our REACH is, compared with the European one? As the previous speaker said, the EU is expanding its schemes. Do we have tighter regulations than the EU imposes at present?
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
Before the Minister sits down, may I briefly raise two points? He said that a difference in exposure patterns would help to explain the differences in regulation between the EU and the UK. I tried to imagine what those differences might be. Some parts of the EU have considerably more heavy industry. We were at a joint event this morning where we were told that both have large areas of factory farming. Thinking about what people actually consume in the EU and the UK, I cannot think of any significant differences between the two that there would be in the pattern of life in terms of consumption. Either now or perhaps in writing, would he consider explaining what those different exposures are?
Finally, I acknowledge that the Minister very much welcomed and is enthusiastic about the microplastics review. What timeframe are we looking at there? I realise that he might not be able to be precise, but will it be this year or next year?
Lord Benyon (Con)
The noble Baroness half answered her first question. An example is that river flow is often lower in England than in the EU. That is a factor, but I will certainly go back to the department and seek further answers on that and on her subsequent question on plastics. I will certainly write to her.
Land Use Commission
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts(3 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Benyon (Con)
The noble Lord identifies a strange social phenomenon which is going on, where people who can afford to live in villages are driving into towns to commute or work there, and they are passing people who cannot afford to live in the villages but who work on the farms or in the countryside around them. We have a very clear, determined policy to extend the exception site housing scheme and support local authorities, parish councils and those communities which want to grow organically. Providing affordable housing in rural areas is key.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there are some existing land uses that are simply too environmentally destructive, too carbon emitting, and have too little benefit for human and non-human animals, and that this needs to be addressed? Is that something the land use commission could address, or will the Government address it in other ways?
Lord Benyon (Con)
I am not entirely sure what the noble Baroness is talking about; she might have given me some examples. It is important that a land use framework gives land managers the ability to plan into the future, knowing what is predisposed from the land, where it is best to plant trees, where we will concentrate our desperate economic and environmental imperative of reversing the declines in species, and where we will produce food. We will have a real attempt at giving land managers the understanding they need to take their businesses forward in this new and changing world.
Direct Payments to Farmers (Reductions) (England) Regulations 2023
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Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, I declare my farming interests as set out in the register, being a farmer in receipt of payments. I shall speak from a grass-roots perspective and perhaps be a little more critical.
On 26 January this year, the Minister in the other place introduced the Government’s agricultural transition plan with the words:
“We will learn from the past”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/1/23; col. 1191.]
I regret that the Conservatives are slow to do so. The errors of the common agricultural policy will not absolve them of their mistakes, repeatedly made. That is not to say that I am not in favour of the new approach towards payments for environmental benefits; it is the poor way in which they are being introduced that I regret.
I regret that Conservatives still insist on basing environmental payments on the income-foregone model, long discredited since the start of Pillar 2 payments many years ago. I had thought that, under the new post-EU system, farmers were to be rewarded for the value of the benefits for the public good of enhancing the environment. Under the cross-compliance features of the CAP it made some sort of sense, but it makes no sense where schemes replace elements of agricultural production and payments go nowhere near the value of cropping, hence the poor uptake in many of the schemes under Countryside Stewardship.
I regret that the Conservative Government paid little attention during the passage of the Agriculture Act to calls that payments need to be worth while under new ELM schemes and that it would be foolish to reduce payments aggressively during the transition before there were meaningful ELM alternatives that could be understood and planned for in future farm business plans. This approach is not a way to build confidence. Conservatives tend to like to reduce, restrict and restrain rather than to undertake positive provisions for growing the market and providing inclusive initiatives.
Against the background of climate change, energy price rises and the war in Ukraine, food security and the lack of certain products on supermarket shelves have highlighted the reduction of support to, and confidence of, farmers. The disastrous trade deal with Australia and New Zealand, agreed by the discredited Liz Truss as Trade Secretary, is not welcomed.
The CAP was an agricultural policy, not an environmental one. Payments were made only to farmers. NGOs and environmental charities were envious that they did not qualify. The Government will say that the same budget of £2.5 billion is still being maintained, but it no longer goes only to farmers. No wonder the NGOs are enthusiastic in their praise. While the money is cut from BPS payments to farmers, can the Minister give the figure for the amount returned to farmers—as distinct from NGOs—from environmental land schemes? Is he able to break down that amount between farm types to clarify the effect of reductions to the uplands, perhaps the most stressed and vulnerable agricultural sector?
I will use another word beginning with R: could the Minister “refrain” from saying it is up to farmers to apply for the new schemes that were introduced in late January? The Minister’s department set itself the ambition of attracting all 80,000 farmers under the BPS to be involved in environmental land management schemes. The department would also need to include tenants, now able to take part under the Rock reforms. That would show the Government’s full commitment to have the countryside in a better state as we drive our ambition to achieve net zero by 2050. As a baseline, can the Minister say how many farmers—not NGOs—participated in schemes last year?
I urge the Minister to learn from the past and develop schemes that are simple and effective. Farmers do not want 100 pages of bureaucracy. Could communication be improved and directed at each qualifying farm in a determination to be inclusive and encouraging, as part of the 30 by 30 commitment? The ambition must be to include all the farms, with their farmers, in schemes at the end of the transition period that began in the Agriculture Act 2020.
Getting the wider 30% of land well-managed for biodiversity by 2030 is a huge challenge. I draw attention here to the fact that all farmers would want to be included, respond positively to challenges and can bring huge benefits across all types of land, in addition to those already protected under designated protections.
Paragraph 7.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that the Government intend the 2023 claim year to be the
“last year of the … Direct Payment scheme”.
In the new system for 2024, will the Government repeat the mistakes they committed previously, with a lack of timely detail, a lack of funding and the same philosophy of reduce, restrict and restrain? Perhaps the Minister can be encouraging this evening
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I find myself in the entirely familiar position of agreeing with everything said by the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, particularly her reflections on the stranglehold that supermarkets have over farmers’ lives in this country. However, I find myself in the unusual position of disagreeing with both the Liberal Democrats’ fatal amendment and the regret amendment from the Labour Benches. At base, that is because, if we were not to take the steps that this SI delivers, the shift away would see £770 million—as calculated by the RSPB—taken away from helping farmers to take action on climate change, reduce water pollution, plant trees and restore nature.
It is worth noting that, under the Environmental Improvement Plan, 90% of the funding for tree planting —to meet the target of 16.5% of England being covered by trees by 2050—depends on ELMS funding. Some 80% of progress on nitrogen, phosphorus and sediment pollution from agriculture depends on ELMS funding. Of course, that is not to say that there are not huge problems with where we are, as the right reverend Prelate, the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, and others pointed out. The Carbon Brief website has a useful interactive table that lists the 270 activities that farmers can undertake to earn payments, particularly from SFI and CS schemes; 39 of those 270 are still at the planning stage, yet the base payments are being cut away.
The Minister will be surprised to hear that I will pass a small bouquet in his direction: the Soil Association has just acknowledged that payments for organic farming are rising by an average of 25% via the Countryside Stewardship scheme, which is a recognition of the benefits of organic production. But, picking up the points about small farms, it is worth noting—perhaps the Minister can write to me about this—that in Wales they are looking to reduce the size of farms eligible for farm payments to three hectares, or, alternatively, to farming businesses that rely on 550 hours of labour per year. Will the Government look at helping those smaller producers, particularly in horticulture, and perhaps small-scale livestock producers, to do that?
But—I suspect the Minister knew there was a “but” coming—my reason for regretting the Labour regret amendment is, as the Minister identified, the fact that farmers and land managers in the UK now need certainty about the future for long-term plans. If you are going to plant trees or herbal leys, you need to know what is happening not just this year or next year but in the long term. Given where we are in the electoral cycle, the Labour regret amendment will deliver to farmers a degree of uncertainty about where they might be in two or three years, in terms of the schemes that the current Conservative Government introduced—
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
I honestly do not think that my regret amendment does that at all. We are trying to point out that the transition has not been straightforward and is not working properly for either the environment or farmers, and that the Government need to urgently re-evaluate their approach to the ongoing transition in order to get this to work for everybody.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
I thank the noble Baroness for the reassurance. I hope that farmers around the country will hear and feel that there is a degree of certainty, because that is what they need, as I said.
I will now get to the part where I criticise the Government. With these kinds of policies, we need a method of policy-making by consensus. In other countries, particularly those with proportional representation electoral systems, there is decision-making that is arrived at by consensus. It would have been better if this had been constructed in a more stable and secure way, in consultation with all parts of our political system, to deliver the certainty that farmers need. As has been said from all sides of your Lordships’ House, that is not the position that farmers are in today.
Lord Roborough (Con)
My Lords, I declare my interest as a farmer and landowner. Despite my position as a loser of financial support under the Government’s current policies, I am against these amendments.
Small farmers in this country, particularly upland farmers, are dependent on predictable government support to plan their businesses and to enable investment to achieve positive environmental outcomes. Many of those farmers are on a financial knife-edge, and these amendments would throw the plans for those embracing change into turmoil. I am familiar with the finances of typical upland farmers in my home county of Devon and their reliance on consistent and predictable government support. Changing that government support now is not helpful.
Food Price Inflation
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Lord Benyon (Con)
As the noble Baroness will know, we have extended free school meals to the largest group of children for decades, and we will continue to look at any other measures we can take. I draw her attention to the work that the Department of Health and Social Care has done for infants. It has increased Healthy Start food vouchers from £3.10 to £4.25, which is a significant increase, helping low-income families to buy basic food such as milk, fruit and vitamins, ensuring that families are not choosing between costs and healthy choices. There are many other areas where the Government can assist, such as advice on diet and nutrition that enables families to make the right choices for them.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, the Statement expresses great faith in the food supply chain, which I can see only as an expression of extreme complacency. It also reflects that domestic suppliers—that is, supermarkets—have kept prices low. Has that not been the source of recent supply problems? The Government have been suggesting that we should be eating more turnips. Of course, the majority of turnips that we consume are produced outside the UK. Does the Minister agree that we cannot keep relying on the soil, water and labour of others to feed ourselves, particularly for the fruit and vegetables which we need far more of?
Lord Benyon (Con)
Our food supply chain was tested as never before through the pandemic. The noble Baroness looks at me as if to say that that is not the case—it is the case. It was tested as never before and found to be secure. With one or two short-term exceptions, it kept us in this country able to have the food that we needed available to us. On costs of lines in supermarkets, Defra works with retailers on a weekly basis to see what direction they are taking to tackle the crisis in household incomes and to make sure that lower-priced products are available, and that those lines are continuing. We do not have a command and control economy that directs our retailers in what they can produce, but they have risen to the challenge, providing a great many lower-priced lines which will continue to be available for families such as this. I hope that will continue.
Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle ExcerptsWednesday 8th March 2023
(3 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady Hayman, and to speak to Amendments 126 and 130, which they have already so ably introduced and to which I have attached my name, both of which have the fullest and broadest possible range of support across parties and non-parties in your Lordships’ House. I essentially agree with everything the noble Baronesses said, although I would perhaps give the Government rather less praise for what I would say are the extremely limited measures on polluter pays they have so far delivered than the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, did.
First, on Amendment 126, Clause 15 has been described as the “Ministers can do whatever they like” part of the Bill. I note that the Peers for the Planet briefing, among others—I should declare my position on the advisory board of Peers for the Planet—says that the direction of travel of the Bill is deregulatory. We are hearing one set of rhetoric, but ultimately, what we are talking about is the law and what will be written into it. That is what will hold sway, not fine words we might hear about a desire for higher standards. It is important also to stress that both amendments deal with environmental issues, but these are also very acutely human health issues: look at the current parlous state of public health in the UK. We really cannot afford to be going backwards in any such areas.
Amendment 126 tries to address the fact that there are no non-regression clauses in the Bill. This is trying to bring in a non-regression clause in one area. I would like a non-regression clause to apply to every category, whatever a category is, that the Bill might identify, but I will stick with the things that are identified in these two amendments, at least as some kind of starting point. When we come to Amendment 130, it is clear—and we had long and hard fights in your Lordships’ House, as I recollect, in the Environment Act 2021—that we need non-regression clauses, and there is also the power to amend what we are now calling retained EU legislation, so it is there in primary legislation; the power already exists, with rules applying to it.
I am not a lawyer and I am not sure whether the lawyers present in the Committee can explain to me how we can have non-regression clauses applying to a set of regulations in one Bill while another Bill has no non-regression clauses. It depends which Bill you use as to whether regression or non-regression is going to apply. Let me guess which law the Government are likely to want to use. Let us have a guess, shall we?
I turn to Amendment 126, and I am seeking to add to rather than repeat what the other noble Baronesses have said. I want to focus on ensuring that we do not conflict with relevant international environmental agreements. I am actually not sure about that, with the way this is currently written—and indeed this is a fast-moving area. Of course, since this amendment was written, we have finally had, after 20 years of negotiation, very excitingly, the agreement on the high seas treaty. That is a real step forward. We also have a mandate for negotiating a UN treaty on plastic pollution. This is where a significant amount of environmental action is happening. We can surely have something in the Bill to say, “We will comply with the international agreements that we have signed up to”, and, indeed, in many cases that we claim to be, and in some cases are, leading.
It might be said that we do not need to do that, but if it is not a problem for the Government, why cannot we write it in anyway? Many noble Lords will have just picked up the Illegal Migration Bill, on the front of which is a statement from the Home Secretary:
“I am unable to make a statement that, in my view, the provisions … are compatible with the Convention rights, but the Government … wishes the House to proceed”.
I truly believe that we need a statement written into this Bill—perhaps every Bill—that we will comply with international obligations that we have signed up to.
Finally, I turn to the non-regression elements in both amendments and the paragraph in the famous letter about overall regulatory burden and what a “category” is. It might reasonably be thought that regulations applying to plastics are a category, so I will explore a practical example of what these amendments could stop. In the last week or so, some extremely disturbing research has come out on the impacts of microplastics; in particular, the newly identified disease of plasticosis. It has been found in the digestive tracts of flesh-footed shearwaters—that is only one seabird, but the experts tell us that there is no biological reason why what is happening to it is not happening to all of us as we ingest what research suggests is up to 5 grams of plastic a week, depending on your diet.
The disease has been given that name because it is like silicosis and asbestosis: it is an inorganic material causing irritation to biological tissues. This is really serious. A few days ago, the Times quoted Dr Luisa Campagnolo, an expert in histology and embryology, as telling the American Association for the Advancement of Science that
“we should not drink bottled water in plastic bottles.”
That is what someone who is looking at the damage being done to tissues is saying.
Let us imagine that the science gets stronger in the next year or two—we can see the direction in which it is heading—and we want to bring in an SI to end all use of plastic bottles for food materials and drinks. What could be the conceivable counteracting release of regulation to achieve a balance of no greater regulatory burden? What in the area of plastics would you have to abolish to balance that? These amendments attempt to deal with issues such as that.
Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)
My Lords, I support these two amendments and congratulate the noble Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady Hayman of Ullock, on the way in which they introduced them. It is slightly ironic that the Government have just published their Environmental Improvement Plan, yet we do not have any sentiment of improvement in this Bill. In fact, we have a distinct deregulatory flavour with this emphasis on not increasing burdens.
In a way, I will miss this Committee, because we have been getting these wonderful letters from Ministers over the last few days. I thank the hot and cold running supply of Ministers wheeled in for this Bill for their correspondence on the issues we have raised on the various days of Committee. I confess that today’s letter from the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, on the safeguards around Clause 15 did not leave me any the wiser on the definition of “alternative provision”, but perhaps most germane to these amendments was the letter of 28 February from the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, on the definition of “regulatory burden”. It left us all, as many noble Lords have said, confused about how not increasing the overall regulatory burden will be assessed—other than, as the Minister has just told us, that it will be up to Ministers to decide whether they are satisfied that the use of the power does not increase the overall regulatory burden in a subject area. I am sure that case law will have to prevail.
Lord Benyon (Con)
I never said that. I was the Minister who made the sewer that is being put in place happen. I know all about the urban waste water treatment directive, and it is a very good directive indeed. It is cleaning up a lot of rivers and will ensure that we have more investment such as we are seeing in the Thames. There may be cases where there has been poor implementation, and there may be cases where there has been very good European regulation which we want to see retained. There may be areas where we can see an improvement which reflects a local dynamic in our environment.
We cannot talk about this in a binary sense. There is some very good EU law which we want to see continue, there are some areas in which it is no longer necessary, and there are some areas in which with a few tweaks it can be improved. Among the proposed conditions in the amendment is a requirement to publish a statement setting out how such environmental standards have been met. Such conditions are already being met under the Environment Act 2021. The Act has established a robust legal framework to deliver environmental benefits and hold Governments, both now and in the future, to account in delivering them. Crucially, the Act also established the Office for Environmental Protection, an independent body to scrutinise government delivery and progress on environmental ambitions. In addition, we have a statutory duty, through the Environment Act, to report annually to Parliament on progress against the environment improvement plan and to undertake a significant improvement test every five years.
To reiterate the point on REACH, which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, raised, we recognise there may be concerns about the future of REACH regulation. That is why we have deliberately built protections into the provisions of the Environment Act. The Secretary of State must publish a statement to explain how any proposal is consistent with the basic aim and scope of REACH. There must be consultation before we can make any changes. We have also excluded more than 20 provisions to protect the fundamental principles of REACH, including the no dating, no market principle, using animal testing only as a last resort, and the public transparency of the system.
Finally, I want to clarify a response made to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, the last time I addressed the Committee on the Bill’s removal of interpretive effects. The removal of interpretive effects by the Bill refers to measures in Clauses 3 to 5 which repeal rights, powers and liabilities saved by Section 4 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. They abolish the principle of the supremacy of EU law and general principles of EU law as aids to interpretation of the UK statute book. Retained case law is not being sunsetted.
Further detail on interpretive effects was set out by the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, in his letter circulated before the Committee on 6 March. We will shortly publish a list for noble Lords, so they will have plenty of time and opportunity to review the regulations we intend to allow to expire at the end of the year and those we wish to retain.
The Government are committed to upholding the environmental protections. I hope I have reassured noble Lords, and I therefore ask them not to press these amendments.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
The Minister speaks for Defra and assures the Committee that the Government are entirely committed to progressing environmental standards and will follow international law. Why is there any problem putting a non-regression clause and an agreement to follow international law in the Bill if that is what the Government plan to do anyway? Further to that, can the Minister assure me 100% that before the next general election there will be no change of direction in the Government, change in Prime Minister or change in ministerial personnel?
Lord Benyon (Con)
I wish I could. I am very content with the current lot, and I hope they continue. I do not really understand the first point that the noble Baroness made. The Bill is quite explicit about where this stands in law. We want a proper regulatory regime underpinned by law; that is why we are having this debate.
Scotland: Bottle Deposit Return Scheme
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Lord Benyon (Con)
Yes, and we are having those discussions. We are also looking at other countries that run successful deposit return schemes to try to learn from their successes, just as we are learning from the failures of the Scottish system, and we want to ensure alignment across the United Kingdom. I am absolutely on the same page as the noble Baroness.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, the Minister said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, that not everything being painted here is an accurate picture, and he spoke about a so-called “rush”. These regulations were passed by the Scottish devolved Administration in September 2020; as I believe the Minister confirmed, discussions started with Westminster in 2021; it is now 2023. Biffa, the delivery body for Circularity Scotland, has spent £100 million and 500 jobs are being created. The very principle that this Government say they stand for, “polluter pays”, is being delivered. Does the Minister agree that, if the Government step in at this very late stage—if Westminster stops Scotland delivering what it has a right to do under devolved law—that will mean a collapse in business confidence and we will never see a bottle deposit scheme across these islands after Westminster steps into this business?
Lord Benyon (Con)
I think all of us will feel great sympathy for the noble Baroness in trying to defend what her party is doing as part of a coalition of abject failure. She talks about business; I can only quote what business says:
“Tens of thousands of businesses who produce, can, bottle, distribute, or sell alcoholic or soft drinks in Scotland now have less than a year to successfully adapt their operations, without the necessary knowledge or levers in place.”
It is not the principle of a deposit return scheme—I suspect some of us are old enough to remember the thruppenny bit—but how it is implemented. That, I am afraid to say, is right at the heart of the problem at Holyrood.
Environmental Improvement Plan 2023
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts(3 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Benyon (Con)
The noble Baroness is absolutely right. It takes just a few millimetres of rain to fall on London for sewage outflows to start pushing sewage straight into the Thames. That is why, two decades ago, we were taken to court by the European Union for failure to comply with the urban wastewater treatment directive. That led to the investment of £1.4 billion in the sewer currently under construction. There are other storm overflows—or whatever they should be called; perhaps just “overflows”—where it takes a similarly small amount of rainfall to cause a problem. That is the low-hanging fruit that we want to see targeted, where we would see the quickest results from the £56 billion investment we will see made in our sewerage network—the largest since privatisation.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, in responding to the Front Benches, the Minister said that soil is absolutely fundamental to the Government’s environment plans. It is therefore a bit of a pity that the word “soil” does not appear anywhere in the Statement to the other place introducing the environmental improvement plans. None the less, I refer—as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, did—to the Government’s former promise and quote a Defra blog from 9 September 2021, which announced:
“Soil Health Action Plan to be launched”.
We are told that the soil health action plan has been rolled into this plan. There is, as the Minister said, a target of 40% of soils being in sustainable management by 2028. The only action I can see in the plan is to create a baseline map of soil health by 2028. Do the Government not plan to take any actual action on soil health until after that map has been created?
Lord Benyon (Con)
As the noble Baroness will know, the Government—whether Ministers or civil servants—do not save soil; farmers do. We want, first, to incentivise them to do the right thing where possible. Secondly, we want to mandate doing the right thing. In our 300-page document on improving and protecting soil—it is not possible to mention everything in it in a Statement—we say that we will
“monitor soil health as part of the Natural Capital and Ecosystem Assessment”
and
“on top of this Defra will … Establish a soil health indicator under the 25 Year Environment Plan Outcome Indicator Framework … Publish a baseline map of soil health for England by 2028 … Support farmers and land managers to establish their own soil health baseline, so they can best manage the health of their soil … Provide a methodology and tools to collect consistent information about the health of the soil under all land uses … Share current guidance and best practice with farmers and land managers to improve their knowledge and work with them on how to improve soil health.”
We will also prevent
“valuable soil resources from being sent to landfill”
and secure
“the integrity of future soil carbon codes”
so that we can unlock the trillions of dollars of ESG money sloshing about in investment in the City and other investment centres to make sure that we are focusing it on our natural environment. Soil health will be fundamental to that. We want to increase organic matter to make soil function as an ecosystem, so that it does not leach what we do not want to see going into our rivers, along with soil itself. Soil is finite natural capital and, after a heavy rain storm, you can often see plumes of soil going into our seas. We want to stop that happening.
Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle ExcerptsWednesday 1st February 2023
(3 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Benyon (Con)
In adding to the noble Baroness’s thanks to noble Lords, I forgot to mention my noble friend Lord Harlech, without whom chaos would have ensued.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, for her comment and want briefly to pick up one point from the Minister on Report. He gave the assurance
“that I will be open to any suggestions”
for
“a forum or fora for a wider conversation with the public”.—[Official Report, 25/1/23; col. 278.]
I hope the Minister will confirm that; I am hoping to outreach with him in the coming weeks to do that. The Minister did not refer to the fact that the Welsh and Scottish Governments have both rejected the legislative consent Motions for the Bill to apply to their countries. Can he provide any more information on where the Government are going forward with that?
Two things have happened since we finished Report. The European Patent Office has revoked an EU patent for heme proteins in plant-based meat alternatives, an issue which was also the subject of litigation in the US. In Committee, we talked a lot about patent issues. We did not go back to them on Report but that certainly raises lots of those issues from Committee. Finally, since our debate we have had a statement from the Advisory Committee on Novel Foods and Processes on so-called precision-bred organisms. Many people are reaching out to me to say that it does not resolve the issues of labelling and other regulatory issues, so I draw that response to the Minister’s attention.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
My Lords, this was at times a very complex and sometimes challenging Bill, particularly for a non-scientist such as myself; I think both the Minister and I were on a steep learning curve. I thank everybody who provided detailed information and support during the course of this Bill. It really was invaluable as we moved through its progress.
I also thank all noble Lords who took part in the debate. A lot of people spent a lot of time going into detail and depth on this, which was really important when you consider its nature. In particular, I would like to thank: my noble friends Lord Winston and Lady Jones of Whitchurch; the noble Lords, Lord Krebs, Lord Trees and Lord Cameron; the noble Baronesses, Lady Bakewell and Lady Parminter, with whom I worked closely, on the Opposition Benches; and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. There was a lot of very clear insight and knowledge that came through noble Lords’ contributions on this Bill, which is one of the reasons why this House is so good at improving legislation—I think this Bill really demonstrated that.
I would also like to thank the officials for their time and their patience with me and my many questions. It was very much appreciated from the Opposition Benches. Finally, I thank the Minister for his time and the constructive way he worked with those of us on the Opposition Benches. It is very much appreciated.
Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle ExcerptsWednesday 25th January 2023
(3 years, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Act 2023 View all Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 83-I Marshalled list for Report - (23 Jan 2023)
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is intended to remove animals from the scope of the Bill.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 1, I will speak also to Amendment 2 in my name and briefly comment on the other amendments in this group.
Many Peers will no doubt have received overnight the joint briefing on the Bill from Friends of the Earth England, Wales and Northern Ireland; the Landworkers’ Alliance; the Consortium for Labelling for the Environment, Animal Welfare, and Regenerative Farming —known as CLEAR; the Soil Association; GM Freeze; Organic Farmers and Growers; and the Organic Research Centre. The tone of that briefing reflects what I hear from academics and campaigners: they feel let down by your Lordships’ House. In Committee, we had a detailed, informed and productive debate on the contents of this Bill and the science behind it, and I single out the noble Lord, Lord Winston, for his rich and expert contributions and many amendments. Then they saw the list of amendments for Report, before I had tabled the amendments in my name, and it seemed as though all that debate and all the issues raised in Committee—not satisfactorily answered by the Government—had dissolved into a puff of smoke, or perhaps a puff of gene-edited pollen.
Many Members of your Lordships’ House attended a very informative online briefing on Friday and heard from an academic expert, Dr Michael Antoniou from King’s College London, about his concerns, and I think most noble Lords were copied into the subsequent detailed written exchanges that continued that debate. With that in mind, since Hansard does not yet allow footnotes in speeches, I put on the record two articles that I urge every noble Lord and civil servant who will be involved in this Bill and subsequent regulations to read and ponder: in Nature, on 12 January 2022, “Mutation bias reflects natural selection in Arabidopsis thaliana”; and, in Elementa: Science of the Anthropocene in March 2021, “Differentiated impacts of human interventions on nature: Scaling the conversation on regulation of gene technologies”.
In short, the first is a substantial debunking of the claim that the mutations occurring in nature are random. This is a subject of continuing scientific debate and a claim relied on heavily by the supporters of the Bill, but it is increasingly evidently incorrect. The second makes the point that even if you were to concede that similar detrimental changes take place through natural means, they are not transmitted around the world at the scale of our globalised industrial agricultural systems, which can spread mistakes before they are recognised. Your Lordships will note the date of those articles. The understanding of genetics and particularly epigenetics is changing fast and the Bill is stuck in the understandings of the 20th century.
All the amendments I have tabled, with one exception, offer a final chance: different routes by which your Lordships’ House could take a pause and allow reflection for the science and the understanding to catch up. I think it is telling that in the last few weeks I have had three major groups of scientists from different fields reach out to me to ask for advice on how they can get through to the Government—in the words of one, “to get the Government to understand our issues”.
There is further evidence for that and I will comment further in the next group on government Amendments 3, 5, 6, 9 and 10. These are amendments to foundational elements of the Bill. This is not mere tidying up—crossing the “t”s and the odd dotting of the “i”s. It is reminiscent of the mess we encountered in Committee on the Procurement Bill and the now gutted and apparently defunct Schools Bill. But here we are at the final stage, the last detailed consideration of the Bill, and the Government are still trying to play around with what it is actually all about.
As I said, my amendments—apart from Amendment 12, which is somewhat different—focus on giving us the chance to go slower, to pause, to look at this somewhat differently. In Committee and in the other place, there was much debate about whether animals should be included in the Bill—to draw a parallel, something that, as far as I am aware, is not even being considered in the yet to be settled debate on gene editing in the European Union. It is an issue of great interest to farmers, growers and food manufacturers in the UK—those who are still managing to export there even after Brexit. Noble Lords will see from the briefings that organic growers and farmers in the UK are very concerned about the Bill.
Amendment 27 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Parminter, and the noble Lord, Lord Winston—and its associated amendments that make up the rest of this group—sets out a very fast timetable of 2026 for farm animals and 2028 for other animals. The best I can say about it is that it is better than nothing. Should it be put to a vote I will support it, but that is still a very short timetable in view of the time it takes for science to get from the lab bench to the peer-reviewed publication, let alone the time it takes to then reach government understanding.
Amendment 1 excludes animals and Amendment 2 in my name would exclude animals and plants not used for food production. We are told again and again by the Government that they want this Bill for food security—they want to be able to produce food—even though it looks a lot like a Bill designed for and by the multinational-dominated biotech sector. But if it is for food, why allow companion animals—or, indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Winston, said in Committee, and the Minister admitted, the gene editing of great apes, the species whose closeness to us has been highlighted only this week by research showing we have an embedded understanding of their gestural language?
So, what I have done with my Amendments 1 and 2 is offer the House a final chance to deliver the changes to the Bill that many were expecting. It is not my intention at this point to call a vote on either, unless the House should signal that it does want to reflect, pause and at least proceed more slowly on a major change in our relationship with the natural world—in the natural world—as human animals in an immensely complex system that has developed over hundreds of millions of years.
Lord Benyon (Con)
I understand the point that my noble friend is making. I cited Bos taurus as perhaps the greatest priority in our minds, but I have also mentioned the benefits that would accrue if we could tackle conditions such as PRRS in pigs. He is right that there are other genuses across farm animal species that we must consider.
As I said, we also intend to produce guidance on the animal marketing authorisation process outlined in the Bill. That will include guidance on the evidence that regulations will require to be submitted alongside the animal welfare declaration by the breeder and, if necessary, more specific guidance relevant to particular species. Through that consideration of evidence and clear guidance, we will ensure that the regulatory system works effectively for different species of animals. I hope that the Government’s intended approach, our commitment to phase the introduction of animals under this legislation and the words that I have said from this Dispatch Box are clear and reassuring for noble Lords. I ask noble Lords to consider not pressing their amendments.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his answer. I thank everyone who has participated in, as he said, this fascinating, detailed and high-quality debate.
I will start with the small bombshell that the Minister that just dropped. We appear to have had a new outline for the way in which the Bill is to be implemented presented to us at the final stage of Report on the Floor of the House—and, as the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, pointed out, with some very unclear elements where we suddenly appear to be covering half the cattle but not the other half. I question whether this is the way in which we should be making legislation.
I want to raise a point on something the Minister said which has not been raised before: why is aquaculture here? As the noble Lord, Lord Winston, said, the reality of land animals is that at least you can keep control of them and muster them fairly well. If we include aquaculture in the early stages, we have to realise that once you release something into the sea, as we know from farmed salmon, there will of course be escapes. We have not had a chance to debate all the things the Minister just said.
I want to go back to first principles. I return to the immensely powerful and important speech by the noble Lord, Lord Winston. As he said, he has 40 years’ experience of working with genes. He is your Lordships’ House’s absolute expert. The noble Lord said that we are embarking on a massive experiment with potential global repercussions, but we do not understand what we are doing. Before I go further, I want to put those words to the Minister. My understanding is that the precautionary principle is part of government policy. How does this Bill fit with that principle?
Lord Benyon (Con)
Let me address some of the points that the noble Baroness has made. The Government have always said that our priority for the rollout of this technology will be plants, then animals. I have added to that the reassurance, in frequent meetings that I have held with noble Lords before today, that we can phase that part of it as well. So I do not consider that to be a bombshell.
ACRE, the body that advises the Government on releases into the environment, has recommended that precision-bred organisms pose no greater risk than their traditionally-bred counterparts. Its advice is supported by the Royal Society, the Royal Society of Biology and the Roslin Institute. As for food and feed, consumer safety will be ensured through a case-by-case assessment by the FSA to ensure that products are safe for consumption.
So I hope the noble Baroness feels that his is not a bombshell, that clear processes are involved and that we have been, in every way, precautionary about how we do this. I put it to her that surely it is being precautionary to tackle some of the problems we face. The greatest challenge ever for humanity is to adapt to climate change and to produce food in a way that a modern society, a civilised society, wants—to make sure we address issues such as animal welfare. That is the opportunity of this Bill.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
I thank the Minister for his answer. I will pick up that point about animal welfare, and indeed pick up the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, about pigs in the US that have been gene-engineered—or, rather, gene-disrupted— to make them resistant to porcine reproductive and respiratory syndrome.
This is a case of knocking out one gene in these pigs. We know that any given strain of a virus mutates at a rapid rate—we only need to look at Covid-19. Where we have pigs held in the kind of crowded, dangerous conditions in which we know pigs are held in the US, the virus will mutate very quickly. We have been through this many times. We had it with resistance to pesticides: we got rid of a single disease with one gene and then, of course, it goes. This is the way that biology works, as the noble Lord, Lord Winston, said. We hold those pigs in the kind of crowded, dangerous conditions where PRRS is a concern. Let us remember that this genetic change is only against that one disease. When swine flu arrives, there is nothing in those pigs that will protect them against it, or prevent it becoming a zoonosis and crossing the species barrier into humans. Yet we continue those farming practices.
I pick up the point from the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, who said that this is the only way we will feed the world and the only way to get more production. That is what we were saying in the 20th century. The discussion on Friday that I referred is only a preprint, but it reflects the direction of the new biology. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said that there is a centre of gravity, but we also know there are tipping points. The new biology acknowledges that a wheat plant and every other complex organism is a holobiont; it operates as a complex of what we think of as the plant, bacteria and fungi that work together. The preprint showed that when a wheat crop is dealing with drought, the epigenetic changes—the kind of changes that the noble Lord, Lord Winston, was talking about, where the plant adapts to circumstances and has its genes expressed in different ways—were happening overwhelmingly in the bacteria and fungi. It is not the genetics of the wheat plant at all. I do not accept that this is the way to feed the world, without tackling the issues of poverty, inequality, food waste and feeding perfectly good food to animals. We need good management of soils and crop diversity—that is how we feed the world.
I feel a sense of despair at this point; I have no alternative but to withdraw my amendment with great reluctance. I really hope that your Lordships’ House has listened, particularly to the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Winston, and that the Government listen to this as we go forward from here.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, having spoken a great deal on the last group, I will be extremely brief now. What we have is the Government still trying to define what the Bill is about at this incredibly late stage. We have been through Committee, Report and the other stages in the other place and here, and here we are still trying to find the wording. Neither the science nor the law is stable enough for this to become an Act and we have just seen a very useful demonstration in this short debate of how this is very likely to be a field day for lawyers, so the lawyers in your Lordships’ House can get ready.
Lord Benyon (Con)
My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, for his continuing help in trying to get this right. I hope the eyes of not too many noble Lords glazed over. I had to get on the record, about what is undoubtedly a very technical piece of legislation, what we were seeking to do by the changes that we were putting in.
The noble Lord makes a very good point about “modern biotechnology” as a term. I am at great pains not to throw in new definitions that could one day come back to bite us, but “modern technology” is widely recognised to cover a specific set of technologies for regulatory purposes. In particular, it is used in the UN’s Cartagena Protocol on Biosafety. The definition of modern biotechnology can be updated—to be probably even more modern technology—subject to the affirmative procedure under powers in the Bill if required.
I hope that the government amendments, which aim to clarify which kinds of genetic features are permissible in a precision-bred organism and the techniques by which they may be introduced, will provide assurance to the noble Lord not to press his amendments. I hope that noble Lords are confident in accepting these government amendments.
“(iv) the details of the gene editing event, and the record of the whole genome sequence of the qualifying organism, are recorded in a publicly available register established by regulations,”
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 12, I will speak also to Amendment 13 in my name. This is an adaptation and development of the work done by the noble Lord, Lord Winston, in Committee—he is not currently in his place; I hope he will be back in a second—when he put forward the idea of a register. This is my attempt to write that register into the Bill, to establish full transparency and traceability around gene editing.
The drafting is my own, although I thank the Table Office for its help. I will not claim that this is the perfect way to set this in the legislation, but in this legislation it absolutely should be, for the sake of transparency and traceability. We are giving commercial companies the right to mess around with the basis of life on earth. Showing their working and allowing the knowledge to be available to others is a small price to pay.
The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and I had a detailed debate in Committee about whether it is possible to identify gene-edited organisms; some aspects of that debate remain in dispute, but we heard on Friday’s call that, should the nature of the gene-editing event be recorded, as Amendment 12 calls for, there is absolutely no doubt that any gene-edited organism can be identified.
This amendment goes further in calling for the record of the whole-genome sequence of the qualifying organism to be recorded. For the House’s information, I think it is worth going a little further into that, and into an explanation of why the regulations should be covered by the affirmative procedure.
Whole-genome sequencing can accurately identify the full spectrum of unintended mutations at both off-target and on-target editing sites, including the inadvertent insertion of foreign DNA. Given what we heard from the Minister in the last group, I am not sure how we can be sure than an organism is legal if we do not have this. Multiple-reference genomes derived from the whole-genome sequencing of major crop plants are available already in the public domain. That has yielded important information about the unintended effects of gene editing on the genome. For example, in a study on gene-edited rice using CRISPR-Cas, whole-genome sequencing was used to investigate unintended mutations arising from several aspects of the gene-editing procedure. The procedure, which taken as a whole includes tissue culture and Agrobacterium-mediated cell transformation, resulted in several times more unintended mutations than were found in rice propagated through natural pollination. If you do not do the whole-genome sequencing, you simply cannot know that to be the case.
We are sometimes told that this is too complicated, difficult and expensive. We have been talking about how fast this field is moving, and one recent innovation is what is known as long-read DNA sequencing. Unlike many things in this area, its meaning is pretty clear-cut from its self-description. It provides a continuous sequence that reads up to 1.5 million DNA base units and would provide unequivocal understanding of the placement of long stretches of repeat sequences, which some of the older methods that break up the DNA strand do not do so easily. Several companies offer a long-read genome sequencing service, making this technology readily available.
I did not write this into the Bill, and it is another reason why I put in the affirmative procedure, but this register could also include requirements for molecular compositional profiling methods: gene expression-profiling transcriptomics, protein-profiling proteomics and small biochemical molecule-profiling metabolomics—let us call them “omics”. These are now used by thousands of research groups around the world to gain a more comprehensive and deeper insight, not just into the genome but into how an organism functions. It is crucial to understanding the health and disease implications of the genome to see how that genome plays out in the proteins in the cells.
A 2016 research paper published in the extremely prestigious journal Nature used a multi-omics approach to demonstrate that a glyphosate-tolerant GM maize was not substantially equivalent to its non-GM relative. The large-scale protein and metabolite alterations that were detected were unintended consequences of the GM transformation process, with potential downstream health consequences for the consumer in terms of the introduction of toxins and allergens.
I see that the noble Lord, Lord Winston, is here and I refer Members of your Lordships’ House to his speech in this area and our discussion in Committee. To know what is going on is scientifically and practically essential. That is why I have tabled these amendments. I do not intend to move to a vote, but this is a matter that the Government should commit to. It is interesting that in our discussion on Friday with all the experts one of them said to me, “Yes, there is a public register. At least that’s how it’s going to work”. I do not know whether the Minister can explain this, but my understanding is that there is nothing in the legislation that provides for a public register. If I am wrong, I am happy to be corrected. However, these people are proponents of the Bill and this procedure, and they believe that there will be a public register. If that is what the experts are trusting in and want to be able to use—it is a public resource—and if it is not already there, the Government certainly should introduce it. I beg to move.
Lord Krebs (CB)
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for introducing the amendment because it gives me a chance to say two things quickly. One, which she alluded to, is our discussion in Committee about detectability by analytical methods. I asked Wendy Harwood from the John Innes Centre to give me an exact form of words about that, which I shall repeat with her permission. It confirms, in a way, what the noble Baroness has just been saying. Wendy Harwood said:
“If you had details of the exact edit made, then you could detect”
the PBO by polymerase chain reaction,
“followed by sequencing of the PCR product. If you were just presented with a plant, and no audit trail and asked whether it was genome edited, you could not determine whether it was or not.”
One therefore needs an audit trail in order to be able to tell. She continued:
“If exactly the same change had been made by precision breeding as had been made by traditional breeding, and you tested by looking for that precise change, then you would not be able to tell which was which. Again an audit trail would be required. You might however have a case where both PB and traditional breeding had made changes to the same gene, giving the same trait, but these changes were not identical at the DNA level, in this case you could tell the difference.”
That emphasises that if one is serious about knowing which products on the shelves are produced by PB, there needs to be an audit trail.
On whether whole-genome sequencing is of value, one angle is that so much mutation in the genome is going on all the time that it is hard to know what one’s reference material would be. The Royal Society produced in its evidence to the Defra consultation a calculation that in a hectare of wheat there would be at least one mutation for every base pair in the wheat genome. There are 10 billion base pairs in a wheat genome. In a one-hectare field of wheat, there would be a mutation somewhere in every one of those base pairs. So the difficulty with using whole-genome sequencing is what one makes of the information one gets. There will be huge variation and one does not quite know what the value of the information is.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
I think we have agreement that some parts of the genome are functionally relevant and have a particular functional significance. We perhaps have points of disagreement about how relatively protected some of those may be from natural mutations. There are lots of mutations that happen naturally in areas that may be beneficial to the plant but only in certain parts of the genome and with certain sorts of functional effects. The parts of the genome that are particularly crucial to the function of the organism are the structural, basic ones, where there are far fewer natural effects. If you read the complete list of the genome, you are going to look at certain bits to see which changes are significant, which ones may be deleterious and which ones are less significant. Does the noble Lord agree?
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his answer, and everyone who contributed to this debate. Once again, the noble Lord, Lord Winston, gave us the expert nailing of the issues. I thank particularly the noble Baronesses, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville and Lady Hayman of Ullock, for stressing the importance of transparency, both for scientific and public confidence reasons.
The Minister went over some of the same ground that the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and I circulated back and forth on in terms of saying “Oh, there are lots of mutations” is not a reason not to do whole-genome sequencing. What we see are the mutations that are of greater importance in particular areas of the genome, et cetera, so the claim that “Oh, there are lots of mutations, so it doesn’t matter” does not scientifically stack up.
We are in a situation of regulations. The Minister said that the regulations will specify that the release notices contain “relevant and necessary” information. I think it is already clear that the detail of what “relevant and necessary” actually means is going to be crucial. We all know the problem with regulation and the way in which we are given it on a take it or leave it basis. Again, I feel great reluctance: I feel that we really should have whole-genome sequencing, and indeed broader omics testing. But I see no option at the present moment but to withdraw the amendment, with great reluctance.
“(2) This section comes into force on the day on which this Act is passed.(3) The rest of this Act comes into force on such day as regulations may appoint.(4) Regulations under this section may not be made until the Secretary of State has laid a Priority Setting Partnership Report before both Houses of Parliament.(5) The Priority Setting Partnership Report shall be drafted by a Priority Setting Partnership established and funded by the Secretary of State, and include a response from the Secretary of State.(6) The Priority Setting Partnership shall—(a) identify evidence uncertainties in relation to precision breeding which cannot be answered by existing research,(b) produce a list of research priorities in relation to precision breeding, and(c) make comments on this Act in relation to issues identified in respect of paragraphs (a) and (b).(7) The Priority Setting Partnership shall have a membership comprising—(a) scientists and academics with expertise in the field of genetics, agriculture, and ecology,(b) lay members of the public,(c) representatives of animal welfare organisations, and(d) other interested parties.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require a report to be published identifying gaps in scientific evidence relating to precision breeding before the Act can come into force.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I am aware of the time but I have attempted, through this amendment, to find a creative new way of tackling some of the issues that have come up in the Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, said quite some time ago, early on, that we have to reassure the public. The noble Lord, Lord Trees, said in the last debate that it is essential to take the public with us. The Minister said that it is essential to build confidence. This amendment seeks a positive way forward. For anyone still worrying about their dinner break, I am not intending to put this to a vote, for the avoidance of doubt, but I want to suggest a way forward for what has clearly been a very difficult Bill with a lot of issues that remain of great concern in your Lordships’ House and more broadly.
On the first group, I spoke about the number of people whom I know are watching the debate at this very moment and feeling very disappointed about what has happened—or rather, not happened. I also refer back to what I said at the start about the scientists who were coming to me saying, “How do we get our knowledge through to the Government? We feel we are just not being heard”, and these are experts in a range of different fields. This is a creative suggestion. I might have included the word “consultation” but, as we have heard in debates on various amendments today, the Government did consult the public and stakeholders and then entirely ignored what they said. It might be said with some justice that what result you will get depends on how you ask the question. Indeed, I think the Minister at some stage referred to a survey saying, “If we can get drought-proof wheat with gene editing, should we go ahead with it?” If you phrase the question that way, you will get a positive result; however, that is not listening to the academic—a proponent of the technology—who said to me this week, “You cannot drought-proof wheat with one genetic change. That is a fact.”
What I am suggesting here is a process of deliberative democracy. This is something that has really taken hold in government departments—not, that I know of, in Defra, but in others—and indeed across the world. Some of the classic examples of deliberative democracy are in Ireland, on equal marriage and on abortion, where the public, when allowed a chance to deliberate and carefully consider the issues, showed themselves to be significantly in front of the politicians. We have seen climate assemblies in the UK— that may have been under Defra; I am not sure what department they were under. We have seen a very effective climate assembly in France. Lots of local government organisations have been having climate assemblies. It is a way of getting people together and getting themselves informed, both the general public and stakeholders.
I borrowed the term “priority setting partnerships” from an organisation called the James Lind Alliance; I did not ask first. I have spoken to people who have been involved in this process, and it is of particular relevance here because it has been used in a significant number of cases to look at how to set priorities and make decisions about ways forward in healthcare. It brings together clinicians, patients and carers in those healthcare settings. My Amendment 28 is a commencement amendment, but I am not going to push it on that basis. My constructive suggestion to the Minister is that, to find a way forward among many of the issues that have really not been resolved in your Lordships’ House, and have not been resolved among scientists, the Government should seek a deliberative process looking at how the regulations are constructed for the Bill. That process could actually get public involvement and engagement, because I guarantee him that there will be a great deal of public concern and public anger about where we have got to today, and public resistance to the products.
That issue is particularly going to arise around whether gene-edited products will be labelled. I could very easily have tabled amendments on this; lots of people asked me to. We debated it extensively in Committee, but I could not see a different way forward and I did not simply want to revisit the Committee debate. However, if we are going to talk to the public about labelling and about what is happening to their food, we know how deep the public’s concern is about food safety, the nature of their food and the way it is produced. I do not need to list all the scandals and the concerns, including genuine health concerns, that have arisen in recent years. This is an area of public concern, so I am suggesting that on regulations, issues such as labelling and many of the things that remain unresolved, the Government should bring together scientists, government officials, experts and the public and seek a way forward that works.
While I remain gravely concerned, for all the reasons I have set out previously about the Bill and what it could unleash, I think there is a very significant chance that this will go nowhere, both because of the legal tangles and the public resistance. If the Government want to find a constructive way forward, I have set out here a way in which they could co-create a model with the public and the experts. That is my genuinely constructive suggestion, and I beg to move.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)
My Lords, if Amendment 28 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments 29 and 30 for reasons of pre-emption.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
I thank the Minister for his answer. I will certainly look to take up his offer in the final section of his response. I also thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville and Lady Hayman of Ullock, for acknowledging the reasons why I brought forward the amendment and the continuing issues around the Bill, that, I think, the Minister also acknowledged to some degree.
I make one comment on the Minister’s reliance on ACRE, which has an extremely narrow scientific focus that lacks the sociological and ecological approaches that would give the Government a much broader view. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and I were playing with metaphors around centres of gravity and shifting balance. ACRE reflects one part of the scientific community and views, but not perhaps the more, dare I say, modern and newer forms of biology, which are not represented in its membership.
However, we are where we are, and I feel the next debates pressing in on us. We have had a good debate today. I do not think we have got to where we need to go, but I do not think we are finished on this issue by any means. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.