Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 8th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Noakes]

I accept what my noble friend says about his position, but I do not think it is the position of those who put forward the amendment.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, I want to draw to the attention of the House something which has not been mentioned so far in all these debates. I listened with great care when the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, introduced the amendment. She drew the attention of the House to subsection (7) of the amendment:

“Nothing in subsection (6) shall affect the duty of a relevant registrar to carry out any other duties and responsibilities of his employment”.

Registrars do not just officiate at weddings. They register births and deaths. If this amendment were passed, it would mean that for a generation we would continue to have acting as registrars people who could not bring themselves to extend the full respect and dignity to same-sex relationships that they do to others.

It may be the case that it is wrong to ask them to perform what is, in the end, not a religious ceremony in any way but a public ceremony. However, to me it is utterly intolerable that a gay person going to register the death of their partner in life should have to do so in the presence of somebody who cannot bring themselves to extend the respect to them that they would to anybody else.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I had not expected to speak in this debate, although I have listened throughout. My mind goes back to 1967, when a dear friend of mine—and a friend for more than 40 years afterwards—introduced a Bill in the other House to decriminalise same-sex acts. Leo Abse was denounced and vilified, he had human excrement pushed through his letterbox, and it was an intolerable time for him and his family.

I have too much respect and affection for Leo Abse to presume to say what his view would be today. I rather think he would support this Bill, but I know one thing. When he announced his retirement and spoke to a meeting of the Pontypool Constituency Labour Party, he said: “I have only one bit of advice for my successor. Tolerate everyone, tolerate everything, but do not tolerate the intolerant”. As I have witnessed this debate today, I have sensed a degree of intolerance. Wherever we stand on this issue, it is right and important that the majority tolerates the minority. I hope the House will recognise that as we bring this debate to a conclusion.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 17th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I am not so sure about that. Those who arranged the judicial calendar did have some regard to questions of that sort when there were a number of judges to be allocated.

I want to draw attention to the facts found in the Ladele case about certain local authorities. It was found practical, in some local authorities, to respect the conscientious objection of particular registrars. If it is possible to do that and still provide the service, it seems to me that the provisions of the European Convention on Human Rights apply in respect to religious belief. As I understand it, people’s religious beliefs are to be given effect except when they conflict with the rights and obligations of others. Where a local authority was able to make that kind of adjustment it was perfectly reasonable for it to do so, and that is what it did. I think this clause as proposed is intended to do that.

I agree that it may be wise to restrict it to those who are already registrars, as the changes to the law affect their situation. However, the idea that it should be ruled out altogether because you could object on other grounds strikes me as not a particularly attractive argument. I remember having a discussion about this very sort of thing with the noble Baronesses on the Front Bench when the Equality Act 2010 was a Bill. I did not get any further with them then than I am likely to now.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, I listened to this debate with great care. It is one of the most important we have had. It was very telling that the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, refused to consider the application to other groups of the principle that she invites us to accept. I thought that was very, very telling. Going back to the points I made earlier today, I defend the right of religious organisations not to like gay people, and to treat gay people differently. I defend their right to do that. I do not defend the right of individual public servants to determine the level of service given to a member of the public according to their private views.

I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Dear, talking about his earlier amendment, which had a similar effect. He talked about a situation in which public servants remove themselves and walk away. How would you feel, as a member of the public turning up for a service that you and everybody else are supposed to be allowed to have, if the person behind the desk walks away? How would you like that to happen to you on one of the most important days of your life? Would you like to have a really important ceremony in your family officiated by somebody who quite plainly does not like you?

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

Surely there is not likely to be any situation in which a couple go to a registrar who is seated at a desk and that registrar walks away from them. The position is clear. The authority would know in advance who is coming, and there would be no insult to the individual couple because a registrar there would have no objection in conscience. There is no way in which an individual couple could be injured in the way the noble Baroness describes.

[Lord Dear]

If I may respond, that situation is really an exercise of emotion rather than fact. The likelihood of a registrar suddenly seeing a gay couple in front of them and turning on his or her heel and walking away is so fanciful as to be almost ludicrous. I would expect to find that people signal their objection before the likelihood occurs. A registrar in this position would signal that, from a matter of conscience, they cannot conduct that marriage. They would make that known to whoever runs that office and somebody else would be in place. I certainly do not envisage—and I certainly would never support—a registrar turning on their heel on the wedding day, walking off and leaving the vestry or the registry office completely open. That is not within my frame of reference at all.

[Baroness Barker]

But you are left with the possibility. What happens in a rural area where there are not that many registrars and a lot of people of a particular religious belief who do not agree with this?

[Lord Dear]

With the greatest respect, we are trying to get to the facts in all these debates. If I may say so, the noble Baroness is painting a picture that is so unlikely to happen as to be almost irrelevant.

[Baroness Barker]

But which is none the less possible.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

I live in a rural area and I looked into this. In rural areas particularly, registrars work in teams. It is like a team ministry in the church: a number of registrars serve several different registry offices. That is certainly what happens in my area.

[Baroness Barker]

None the less, I return to the point: the noble Baroness wishes to put in legislation the potential for some of our citizens to be treated as second-class. That, I am afraid, is not acceptable. In this House we sit and debate whether legislation should be introduced partially, in stages or whatever; we decide what the law is, what is fair and what all our citizens have the right to expect. Why should this be different?

[Baroness O'Loan]

My Lords, can the noble Baroness explain what in this amendment makes her think that the scenario that she painted could happen? As I read the amendment, it is very clear in saying that there will be a registrar—if there is a registrar who does not wish to conduct the marriage, another registrar will be provided, but there will be a registrar. It would help if the noble Baroness could explain why she thinks that would not help.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barker]

Because the potential exists for that to happen. To go back to some recent examples, what if, prior to the implementation of this, a local authority could see this coming and proceeded to employ a lot of people who had an objection to performing this kind of ceremony? I just do not like that we are going to set down in law the fact that some of our citizens will be treated differently in the public space. I accept that they will be treated differently in the religious setting, but in terms of public services that is wrong.

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, it is clear from all these debates and amendments that the feelings on either side are incredibly deeply held. As a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, I can tell your Lordships that we were trying to put forward proposals that were proportionate, reasonable and—in my view; obviously I am not speaking on behalf of other members of the committee—sought to strike some kind of balance. The proposal that has been put forward is limited and reasonable.

I have been sent the same e-mail about the governing body of registrars, saying that there was not a problem, so I specifically asked Members of the other place if they had received representations. The Member for Bermondsey, Mr Simon Hughes, said he had received letters from individual registrars asking him to make some provision in the Bill. Obviously no member of the committee is going to put forward a proposal that is not based on some form of evidence, so there were those concerns.

Secondly, I have read many papers during my time on that committee but I recall reading that in Holland—one of the most liberal societies in continental Europe—they have made some provision for freedom of conscience among their registrars. So I ask my noble friend the Minister, when considering the proposal, to look at what Holland has done to try to balance these rights.