Syria and the Middle East

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Monday 1st July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, for this very timely debate. We all seem to have heard different things in the Minister’s statement. I got the impression that the Government were intent on negotiations and that the idea was that there should be quiet diplomacy before any kind of action. If I have heard right, I would applaud that and am very grateful because that was what I was going to suggest at the end of my speech.

The most important consideration about intervention in the Middle East is whether it would help yet another “fundamentalist” group of religious people. In my experience—both as a teacher of Islamic law and of courses on the Middle East, and as someone born and raised in Iran—it is when religion rather than citizenship becomes the badge of identity that death, destruction and the complete misuse of faith become evident.

I do not recognise the presentation of these borderless countries in the Middle East where people do not know their identity and they wonder about modernity. I had the good fortune to be born and raised in Iran in the century when modernisation and secularism were very much part of people’s experience. Not only was I raised as a secular person, with my religion accepted, but so were my mother and grandfather. In our family there are at least three generations, going back to the very beginning of the century, of accepting secularism without undermining faith. I grew up as a Muslim and used to fast with my one non-secular grandmother, who was very religious, but at the same time I was sent to a Catholic school run by the sisters of St Vincent de Paul. I was then sent to a Protestant school in the UK and subsequently went to a secular university at York. At no time did I ever feel defensive about my religion or the lack of it. When I was growing up, our life was patterned by Islamic feast days and fast days but, at the same time, by the Persian new year, which dates back 6,000 years to the Zoroastrian era. Muslims, Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians—people of any religion and none—lived, worked and intermarried. They had no problems—so much so that I learnt a great deal about Christianity through my aunt’s sister, who is a nun in the UK and has headed a convent. It seems to me that celebrating diversity, at least in Iran, goes a very long way back.

I also fear that I will have to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, who I admire greatly. It seems to me that the Iran-Iraq war was not about religion but was very much about borders and fear of religion. That fear of religion is exactly what we are seeing right now in Egypt. Egyptians are beginning to realise what fundamentalism, or any “ism”, means. I would suggest that Islamism, as experienced in Saudi Arabia, Iran and elsewhere, and Zionism, as experienced in Israel and elsewhere, have nothing to do with the teachings of the holy books. They have everything to do with grasping an identity, misinterpreting the texts and imposing a climate of fear, including fear of the other—those who do not have our religion. I had no idea who was a Shia or a Sunni and I still do not among all the Muslims with whom I work, and work very effectively, in a country where—thank heaven—Muslim women can sit in the House of Lords and be Ministers. I would like to wish very much the same thing for much of the Middle East.

That is where any intervention on the part of the Government that would advantage any religious group—Sunni, Shia or whatever—is going to be highly counterproductive and would actually cause more damage than not intervening at all. It seems to me that much of the Middle East is waking up to the fear of Islam and of what it can do. That is why the Turks are in the streets and why the Egyptians are in the streets. There is a real uprising from among the people themselves. They do not need to be told and certainly do not need intervention that would help a particular religious group and give it any kind of advantage. The situation in the Middle East is tumultuous enough and things are going from bad to worse. The very last thing that we need as Middle Easterners is for any Government to help one group rather than another. Of course negotiations are difficult and of course it is not easy to be peacemakers but, in my experience, what the British are fantastically good at is quiet diplomacy. That is where they are sans pareil. There is no other group I know who can work so effectively under the radar.

The experience of Afghanistan shows that, after years of war, we finally have to sit down with the Taliban and talk to it at a time when it seems impossible. There is no such thing as impossible in diplomacy. What is needed is quiet undercurrents of help, assistance and conversations. Please do not arm yet another group of fundamentalists. That, I think, would be a mistake.

Gaza

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Tuesday 18th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I agree with the noble Lord that there is a very human story. Nothing is as clear as the top headlines, and of course there are fantastic stories of the two communities working together in the way that the noble Lord describes.

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, are the Government aware that abuse of human rights by one Government in the Middle East being disregarded and tacitly supported by the West makes other transgressions against human rights by other Middle Eastern countries the norm, and that therefore it is dangerous for the whole of the Middle East?

[Baroness Warsi]

I agree with the noble Baroness. The commitment to human rights must be the same for every member state. That is why the Human Rights Council has the concept of the universal periodic review, under which every state presents itself to other nations and is tested against its human rights record. We are concerned that Israel has not engaged with the universal periodic review. We see some signs of movement but we urge Israel to come back, like the other member states, and to engage with the UPR.

Iran

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I am not enough of a military expert to start making these decisions. I do not think that this is a matter for moral judgment; it will be based on any scenario that presents itself at the time, and it would be wrong for me or the Government to speculate at this stage.

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, should there not be the same kind of sanctions against all countries who have nuclear weapons? Is it not the case that these sanctions hurt the poor in Iran while the elite are totally unaffected?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Baroness raises a very important point. When we look at sanctions, we are extremely aware of the need to have appropriate exemptions in place that cover humanitarian assistance, including medicines. It is important to remember that what we are concerned about is the development of nuclear weapons. We have concerns about the regime but not about the Iranian people. They are not the people we want to suffer as a result of these sanctions.

Iran

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

To answer my noble friend’s last question first, it has been the constant position of Her Majesty's Government that we would like Israel to come out fully and join the non-proliferation treaty if, as is widely alleged, it has nuclear weapons. We have not been given any firm facts on that, but it is an important aspect. As to Israeli action, that is constantly debated. Again, we have not been hesitant in making clear that action by Israel against Iran would lead to very dangerous developments. We take a very strong view that that is not the way forward and is at all costs to be avoided. That is the position vis-à-vis Israel.

My noble friend is absolutely right that one of Iran’s claimed excuses, shall we say, for pushing ahead—one of its reasons for defying IAEA resolutions and UN resolutions, as it has—is that it should have nuclear weapons because it says that Israel has a nuclear weapon. That reality must be faced. My noble friend is not entirely right in saying that Iran is not in defiance of resolutions; it is; it has broken resolutions in the past. I hope that I did not misinterpret what she said on that. This is the problem: we have a regime in Tehran that cannot be trusted and has been declaring that it was co-operating and collaborating with NPT and IAEA resolutions when it was not, as has been revealed by various alarming discoveries along the way.

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords—

[Lord Gilbert]

My Lords, should we not all calm down a little about this? The Iranians think that they have total justification for possessing nuclear weapons. For the life of me, I cannot see any case against their having a nuclear weapon. Who on earth are they going to use it against? If anyone says Israel, you cannot imagine a more suicidal act for a country to perform than to launch a nuclear weapon against Israel. That would mean the total incineration of Iran. We ought to realise that with the Iranians we are dealing with people who deal in braggadocio, who say things they do not mean that sound great on television for local consumption. We should calm down—let them get on with it and waste their money.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, has been trying to get in, and we can then come to the Conservative Benches.

[Baroness Afshar]

I declare an interest as someone who was born in Iran and still works very closely with Iranian academics. My worry is that in Iran views are very divided about nuclear weapons, but the moment there is a threat of sanctions and a threat against Iran, it is likely that even among those who are absolutely opposed—I work with the resistance movement—a great many would back the Government. The fear of Israel is very real, and the idea that there is one law for Israel and one for Iran is absolutely understood by Iranians. The idea that Britain will bring its Army or Navy will be seen as armed defence of Israel. That would undermine any negotiations on the table. It would be very much better if negotiations were conducted perhaps a bit more quietly and with less threat. As an academic, I know that we are suffering enormously because brilliant Iranian students who want to do postgraduate work in this country cannot do so. As someone who came to this country as a student I can tell you that sometimes we turn good.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Baroness speaks with a lot of experience and understanding in her analysis of the psychology of the Iranian policy-makers and the Iranian Government, which, as she rightly said, is a divided house in itself. All kinds of internal conflicts are going on inside Iran. As to the question of getting back to negotiation, that is something that we all want. The aim of this policy, as my right honourable friend in the other place has made clear this afternoon, is to bring Iran back to the negotiating table, and to do so in ways that will then lead to a sensible discussion of its nuclear programme and recognising its rights, if conducted properly and in accordance with NPT and IAEA resolutions and requirements, to have civil nuclear power. That is recognised, but negotiation there must be. Bringing Iran back to the table is the task. So far, doing that by saying, “Please come back”, and through the normal diplomatic niceties has proved totally inadequate. That is why we have come to the point when the pressure must be increased and the Iranians must be brought back to the table. Any suggestion that instead they will grow more violent and take action to close international waterways must be totally rejected and opposed.

Iran

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Tuesday 30th November 2010 Grand Committee

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Corbett, for putting this debate on the agenda, and I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, for the very sane statement that she made. In my three minutes, I shall make three points. First, you have to think what it feels like if you are Iranian and surrounded by nuclear powers, and in particular if your enemy is Israel, which has a proven track record of attacking Palestine, Lebanon and elsewhere. Iran from the 20th century onwards has a relatively clean record on attacks; it seems to be more sinned against than sinning.

I should like noble Lords to think about why Iran is influential in the neighbourhood. It was dead against the Taliban and co-operated in the West to allow the Taliban to be arrested and sent over, so why the volte face? Iran tried very hard to have amicable negotiations with the West and failed. When you find that there is no jaw-jaw, you go for war-war, which actually helps the Government. If the Government were under threat, Iranians across the board would help them. What is more, we need to think of how the Iranians treated the flood of refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan who came to Iran. They were well treated, housed in open camps and afforded education. It so happens that I know, for example, that one of the very few women MPs in Afghanistan was educated in Iran. It is hardly surprising that Iran is influential. As a matter of fact, I might tell your Lordships that Iran is working with both sides. It is helping the Taliban, just in case it wins; it is also helping the Government. We have to ask: what would Britain do in such a circumstance?

I conclude on the question of human rights. I absolutely support the 65th resolution of the General Assembly abhorring the human rights situation in Iran. If there were a statement in the name of human rights, your Lordships would have international Iranian support. On the other hand, the Mujahedin-e Khalq did not have a presence among all those who were killed and died for the cause of democracy in Iran, while Camp Ashraf was used by the mujaheddin to torture its own people. There is a long tradition of suffering there, and it has nothing to do with Iran.

Diplomacy

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Thursday 11th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Hannay for placing this debate on the agenda. I have to declare an interest because I shall be speaking about Iran. I was born and raised in Iran and I worked there as a journalist. However, what I really remember from my past is the extraordinary influence that Britain had on Iranian politics during my childhood—so much so that I remember whenever anything happened to the soup, our cook would immediately say, “Poltiqueh inglissas”. It took me a while to understand that she meant, “It’s because of the politics of the English”. It seemed to have an influence right across our lives.

I suggest that the BBC in particular retains the kind of punch that it has had for a long time. In Iran at the moment, with many of our journalists languishing in prison, it is regarded as one of the most reliable sources of information there. I can tell your Lordships that the BBC has been listened to and watched by Iranians for ever. I remember, as a young student, giving an interview to the BBC and inadvertently admitting that I was helping behind the scenes of the local pantomime. I was suddenly hit by an avalanche of calls and letters from irate aunts and uncles telling me how I should not be mixing with thespians. They had all heard the programme, in which I had thought I was just having a chat in an interview.

I find that appearing on BBC television has exactly the same impact. Iranians watch it. The Iranian Vice-President is on record as admitting that he does not like BBC Persian Television, although he has watched it during a Cabinet meeting. Therefore, it seems to me that Britain is punching above its weight in the case of Iran. That is not surprising, particularly as BBC Persian Television is run by people who have been largely recruited in Iran, including many young journalists who have found the situation there impossible. Therefore, not only to avoid imprisonment but also to have a voice, they have come to work for the BBC, and I assure your Lordships that their voice is being heard loud and clear in Iran. It seems to me that, in response, the Iranians provide the BBC with an enormous amount of information.

Interactive connections exist with the BBC, and I understand that at some point eight videos per minute were sent to the BBC during times of crisis in Iran, when no one in Iran could broadcast them but the BBC could. It became a source of information for many news agencies around the world. That interactivity is feared by the Iranian Government but respected by Iranians, because they do not see the BBC as the voice of the British Government. Often, the BBC reports the unheard voices of Iranians, and many of us rely on the BBC reports because our e-mails are checked and we do not get phone calls that are not controlled. Therefore, it is crucial that the BBC retains its ability to broadcast to Iran. We know that the Government fear it by the number of jammings of BBC programmes that have occurred again and again.

Given this important impact, given that Britain needs all the friends it can possibly get in the Middle East in general and in Iran in particular, and given that the nuclear debate has been very counterproductive in its impact on the popular mind in Iran, the BBC—radio, bbcworldnews.com and television—is the most effective informal channel not only to influence Iranians but to convey Iranian views abroad. It is therefore a matter of great regret that, as I understand it, the Foreign Office has taken a 10 per cent cut in its budget but the BBC World Service is about to take a 16 per cent cut. Does the Minister consider that there is any room for reconsideration?

Immigration: Deportation of Iraqis

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The answer is that we monitor it as closely as we possible can. The noble Lord will appreciate that there are bound to be some limitations on the detailed monitoring and tracking of every individual, but through the UK Border Agency and its standard procedures we seek to track the situation as closely as possible.

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, is it not the case that in the absence of the close monitoring of returnees, the UNHCR is one of the few organisations that is sufficiently well connected to follow up where people go, particularly in Kurdistan which is highly divided on a tribal basis and where it is almost impossible for any foreign agency to have enough information unless it comes internally? The inability to follow what happens to individuals who are returned means that all kinds of blood feuds that might have been quietened during the person’s absence rekindle and begin again. We need to know that there is long-term security for people who have sought asylum in this country.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course we appreciate the very difficult history of Kurdistan and the rest of Iraq, but it is the judgment of the agency and of the independent courts that, at this time, the signs are that Kurdistan is coming together more, that it is a less unstable country, that there is evidence of growth, peace and development and that it is safe to return people who no longer need our protection and should not have been here in the first place.