Health and Care Bill

Baroness Keeley Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 22nd November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Edward Argar]

I understand where my hon. Friend and Members from both sides of the House are coming from. This is the first major step forward in the reform of social care that we have seen in decades and must be seen as part of an overall package of changes.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

rose—

[Edward Argar]

I would like to make a little progress, if I may.

The reforms will make the existing means test far more generous. We are increasing the upper capital limit from £23,250 to £100,000, which will make masses of people with moderate assets eligible for some state support towards the cost of care earlier, and the lower capital limit will also increase, from £14,250 to £20,000. Below that level, people will contribute only from their income, fully protecting their savings and assets below £20,000.

Over recent days, people have compared our policy proposals to previous, abandoned and never-enacted proposals for reform. I am clear that our proposals will deliver the changes needed where others have failed and see a significant improvement on the system that is in place today.

[Barbara Keeley]

rose—

[Catherine West]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Edward Argar]

While the hon. Lady and I do not always agree on everything, she asks a perfectly a reasoned and measured question. I pay tribute to Andrew Dilnot’s work on his report. I just happen to think that, on this point, we diverged from what he proposed and we believe that what we are proposing is the right way forward. We have always intended for the cap to apply to what people personally contribute, rather than on the combination of their personal contribution and that of the state. It will mean that people with fewer chargeable assets meter towards the cap more slowly, because they are paying much less each week than people who are entirely self-funding. This amendment will make it simpler to understand the amount that will go towards the cap and make it fairer.

[Barbara Keeley]

rose—

[Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Edward Argar]

If the shadow Secretary of State will forgive me, the hon. Lady has attempted on a number of occasions to get in, so it is only fair that I give way to her.

[Barbara Keeley]

On the point the Minister is making about the Dilnot proposals and a comparison, let me tell him that the Alzheimer’s Society said that 15% of people with dementia in the north-west would reach the cap under the Government’s proposals, compared with 34% under Dilnot’s proposals. That is a massive amount, and those are the people, with their families, who are paying hundreds of thousands and pounds. That is the comparison.

[Edward Argar]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I do not think that she posed a question, but she made her point clearly, as she always does.

--- Later in debate ---

[Edward Argar]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, a member of the Health and Social Care Committee, for his intervention. He makes the point well that this is another step on the journey, but it is a journey that only this Government have actually got round to starting. Previous Governments have failed to make that progress. The previous Labour Government produced two Green Papers, one Royal Commission, and one spending review and nothing was done, so this Government are making significant progress.

[Barbara Keeley]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Justin Madders]

My hon. Friend must have sneaked a look at my speech, because I will say later that it is Robin Hood in reverse.

[Barbara Keeley]

The proposal is grossly unfair. I gave the example earlier that in our region, 15% of people with dementia will reach the cap, whereas 34% would have under the Dilnot proposals. The cap also does not protect working-age adults who are accessing social care, or people with a disability, but Sir Andrew Dilnot’s proposals would have done. It is the second major area in which the proposal is grossly unfair.

[Justin Madders]

Again, my hon. Friend must have read my speech because I will make that point later. The proposal shows that the Bill is not a plan to fix social care but a very thin attempt to change parts of the system. There are many other elements that clearly need dealing with.

In case Conservative Members need reminding, in the Prime Minister’s first speech on taking office, he promised to,

“fix the crisis in social care once and for all, with a clear plan that we have prepared”.

We are still to see that plan. What we have is a new tax and a broken promise.