Levelling Up Rural Britain

Debate between Alex Norris and Matt Western

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Alex Norris]

The hon. Gentleman makes a strong case for the status quo, but frankly the status quo does not work.

Finally, we will put local people back in charge with a new community right to buy, giving communities the opportunity to take control of pubs, historic buildings and football clubs that come up for sale or fall into disrepair. At the moment, local groups have a right to bid for such assets but it is clear that that has not worked. We will augment that to ensure that communities can make the most of the new right by improving the community ownership fund to ensure that seed capital is available for communities to generate revenues so that they can invest in their town, village or city and ensure that the proceeds of growth benefit those who live there. These are meaningful interventions that will have a meaningful impact on our rural communities. This lies in stark contrast to the Government’s levelling-up plans, which are so inconsequential that Ministers will not even release the impact assessment.

Again, I appeal to Conservative Back Benchers, many of whom I know to be independent-minded people who believe in the importance of doing things right in this place. The impact assessment on the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill has been ready since July, but the Government will not release it. We have had all the Bill’s stages up to the end of Committee without the impact assessment. If we are serious about levelling-up rural Britain, let us have a conversation on the facts. My efforts to get the Minister to change his position on releasing the impact assessment have not worked. I ask Conservative Back Benchers to help, because we need a proper conversation on the facts.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech from what I have heard.

We are losing pubs and shops in our rural areas. We have a fantastic community shop in the village of Barford and a community pub in Norton Lindsey, and they bring their communities together. When I saw the title of this debate, I was concerned it was about the prospect of Barford being literally levelled for a quarry—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. That is a long intervention. The hon. Gentleman may have been here earlier in the debate, but he certainly has not been here since I came into the Chair at half-past 5, so he is rather naughty.

Draft Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling Products (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Debate between Alex Norris and Matt Western

Tuesday 3rd November 2020 General Committees

[Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Mundell, for the first time. As the Minister said, we discussed similar regulations yesterday, and we are heading for a third bout in our series tomorrow, which is proving so juicy that it will held in the main Chamber. So something for everyone.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

The rumble in the jungle.

[Alex Norris]

Quite. I made that joke yesterday.

[Matt Western]

If only I had been there.

[Alex Norris]

Exactly; that’s what all they all said. It is a challenge not to repeat the content, especially not my gags, although some points may bear repeating. The regulations were the subject of very good exchanges in the other place yesterday, which as well as covering the minutiae of the subject also addressed important points about general tobacco control. I may refer to those exchanges briefly, but first I should like to echo what my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), said 18 months ago when debating the 2019 regulations. She outlined how dangerous it was that so much planning was needed for a no-deal scenario, and yet there was so little clarity on a no deal at that point. She warned that with 18 months to go, it was far too close to the deadline not to know where we were going. Well, we are now 60 days away, and we still know very little more. That is concerning: the Government need to get the deal that was promised to the British people, otherwise there will be significant disruption.

As the Minister said, the 2020 regulations amend the 2019 regulations, and implement the Northern Ireland protocol of the withdrawal agreement to ensure that the UK meets its obligations on tobacco control policy under that agreement. They will ensure consistency between the requirements relating to tobacco products placed on the market before and after the end of the implementation period, change the fees payable by producers when reporting information about their products in order to account for such amendments in Northern Ireland and ensure that tobacco control legislation continues to work effectively at the end of the implementation period. To that end, I will not be forcing a Division on the SI, because we do not want to render the nation’s tobacco control policies ineffective. However, I want some reassurance on the Northern Ireland aspects and the smoke-free agenda generally.

As per the withdrawal agreement, Northern Ireland is obliged to rely on specific EU rules, but looking at the bigger picture, time is running out for the Government to implement the remaining elements of the protocol. Any update on when that is likely to happen would be helpful, because proper implementation is vital to the protection of the Good Friday agreement.

Whatever happens in terms of these regulations, and our exit from the EU, that must not slow down our journey towards smoking cessation. I live in and represent one of the most challenged communities on health inequalities in the UK, and half of our health inequality is smoking based. We could remove half of health inequalities at a stroke by achieving that smoke-free goal. To me, that is an absolute priority project for Government. If they want to talk about levelling up, smoke cessation is perhaps the best thing that could be done to achieve that. The Minister made an accurate, well-expressed point about the cross-party record on declining smoking rates in the past couple of decades, and we should all be proud of that. However, smoking still remains the biggest preventable cause of cancer and death. There is an awful human cost, as well as the treatment costs of £2.4 billion each year – cutting smoking represents a really big prize to us.

It was interesting to note the Cancer Research UK report, ‘Making Conversation Count’, which set out the health and economic benefits of improving smoking cessation support in UK general practice. It is worth a read, and I would be interested in the Minister’s reflections on it. Before I draw attention to couple of the report’s highlights, I want to make a broader point about smoking cessation.

Local authorities have been under exceptional financial challenges for a decade. We could have a big political conversation about the necessity or otherwise of that, but I am less interested in that today. What we know for sure, however, is that those challenges have led to a diminution in smoking cessation services. Those services are strongly evidence-backed, and save us money in the long run. It is the falsest of false economies that hard-pressed local authorities are having to make. That matters today, beyond the fact that in itself it is a bad thing, because as councils deal with the impact of covid—it is clear that the total cost to each and everyone of our local authorities will not be met by central Government and that that initial promise will not be met—they will have to make difficult decisions. I know that in Nottingham, and I suspect this will happen across the country, we will see in-year budgets. They are horrendous not least because to try to get a 12-month saving from a six-month budget means that councils have to cut twice as much. Councils can try to finesse reserves, but they are in short supply. I am very concerned, and I hope that the Department are keeping a watchful eye on the aggregate impact on smoking cessation services in this country. If we lose them, we will face significant challenges. I sense that I am in danger of my comments being ruled out of the scope of the regulations. Am I?

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Bolton) Regulations 2020

Debate between Alex Norris and Matt Western

Tuesday 29th September 2020 General Committees

[Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister and her colleague, the Minister for Health, the hon. Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar), together with my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) and I are in a sort of Monday-Tuesday rotation for these statutory instruments. The SIs are broadly similar, but each one is exceptionally important to the local communities that they affect. There may therefore be some repetition in my speech, as I dare say there was in the Minister’s. Nevertheless, it is important that we discuss these matters fully, and that is what I will seek to do.

I always start these debates with a homily about the nature of opposition in coronavirus times; we are always a bit in the Goldilocks hot seat. I think it was last Wednesday night that I was on Talk Radio getting beaten up because we were too supportive of the Government and the lockdown regulations. On Sunday, I was then on Sky News being beaten up for playing party politics with our opposition to some elements of the restrictive measures. Such is life.

I say that to show that we genuinely treat these things on their merits. We want the Government to succeed; we want to get out of this coronavirus era, however long it lasts. We want to get back to the football—frankly, it is not a night out if it finishes at 10 pm. We do want the Government to succeed, but there are times when our good will and support are stretched, especially when it seems that the Government are losing control of the virus.

Over the weekend, there was another foreseeable but not particularly well-managed situation around universities in policy terms, but there was also chaotic communication, with successive Ministers unable to say the same thing in succession. Similarly, even this morning Ministers on national media were unable to stand up the messages given out yesterday in the Chamber. That makes things really hard, as do the regulations before us.

I will say a lot of the things that I have said before. Debating regulations 19 days after they came into force is a fool’s errand and a waste of all our time, other than the fact that it is really important that we do debate them. We cannot change anything; we will not divide over them. Of course we cannot—the horse is multiple fields down by now.

We appreciate the need for efficient action, particularly at the beginning of a crisis, but it is absurd that this far into the crisis we have still not managed to debate one of these statutory instruments prior to its coming into force. When we do reach an opportunity to debate them, it is not even days but weeks or months later— 19 days in this case. That is a regular pattern that has been raised many times by Members of all parties and many times in the other place.

The rubber will perhaps hit the road on this discussion tomorrow, because Parliament is not here to rubber-stamp Government decisions. Executive decisions are not meant to be rubber-stamped by the legislature many weeks later, but, as I say, we are here and there is not much choice. We have a responsibility to make sure that the Government do the best by the country and that our constituents have maximum confidence in what is done. We must be able to demonstrate that we properly scrutinise the decisions that are being taken, but we cannot say that at the moment.

When I raised the matter last week, the Minister asked whether I would be willing to work seven days a week in order to scrutinise legislation. That made me think of an American revolutionary, Nathan Hale, who, just before he was executed for spying, said,

“I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country.”

I can probably bastardise that to say, “My only regret is that I have only seven days to give for my community.” Whatever the day, whatever the hour, if it is important enough for us to discuss and it means we can get upstream, I would be willing to meet—even on a Sunday. We are discussing regulations from 19 days ago and new ones were announced yesterday. If meeting on a Sunday is what it takes to discuss yesterday’s new regulations in a timely manner, I absolutely would be willing to do that.

Nevertheless, I recognise that last week we were talking about statutory instruments that were nine and a half weeks old, and the instrument we are discussing today is only two and a half weeks old. Perhaps the Minister can give us her thoughts on that, but I hope it demonstrates that we are catching up, in which case I recognise that and am grateful to the Minister and her team for it.

Similarly last week, the Minister mentioned that the statutory instruments were in accordance with the Coronavirus Act 2020. I do not dispute that that is the case with today’s instrument, but I gently say that that is not a particularly high bar. When the instruments are so badly out of date, the Act is weakened. Ahead of tomorrow’s discussions we will all have received emails. There is a lot of bad information out there about coronavirus. Some of the emails we get are perhaps less based in fact, but the emails we are getting at the moment about the Act are very well meant. They are evidence based, with serious discussions about civil liberties in the UK. Concern is growing because there is a sense that Parliament has not got a grip, which is very much the point that I am making this morning. Again, we will support the renewal of the Act tomorrow—what else could we do?—but we will seek to amend it to give a greater sense of transparency.

I know that there are other high profile suggestions centred on giving Parliament an automatic proactive say. I am attracted to that, but I have no confidence that it will be delivered, even if the Government are bounced into it. Yesterday the Secretary of State said,

“I strongly agree with the need for us in this House to have the appropriate level of scrutiny… The aim is to provide the House with the opportunity to scrutinise in advance through regular statements and debates, questioning the Government’s scientific advisers more regularly—that has already started—gaining access to local data”.—[Official Report, 28 September 2020; Vol. 681, c. 22.]

Even for the Secretary of State, that is a classic of the genre: suggesting agreement, but not actually agreeing; suggesting something new, but offering the status quo. I do not know if that will wash with Government Back Benchers—I would be amazed if it did—because that is what we have at the moment.

What we are talking about is significant restrictions on people’s liberties that are discussed in the past tense. I recognise that the Government have frequently made themselves available through statements, and Mr Speaker has facilitated urgent questions or general debates such as the one we had yesterday. However, it is not the chance to talk about coronavirus that has colleagues concerned, but the chance to discuss significant and important restrictions on people’s liberties, which we do not have at the moment.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes. As my hon. Friend said, we have debated the points in hindsight over many weeks now.

What is frustrating for the public and those of us representing the public is the fact that this legislation is being debated retrospectively. There is so much inconsistency and incoherence in so much of the Government policy, and that is the frustrating thing. That is why we need to get on the front foot and lay such legislation in advance.

[Alex Norris]

I agree with that. It is good for all of us—good for parliamentary democracy, but good for the Government too—to have the regulations and inconsistencies aired. We would hope that that is the way in which things will be improved. My hon. Friend’s point also reflects on the consistent and regular use of the negative procedure for these statutory instruments. Obviously, that is now very pertinent in the light of what we will discuss tomorrow—renewing the Act or not—but it is hard not to notice that the whole suite of Brexit-related legislation is wired in exactly the same way. The Government rely on these powers, and on secondary legislation approved via the negative procedure. Many of those who are opposing this method today and tomorrow have championed it for four years, so it is a little late to take it slowly. That is not Nathan Hale; it is Girls Aloud. We should have real concern that this is the nature of government in Britain for at least the next 12 to 18 months; decisions by the Executive are subsequently looked at by Parliament when it is a bit late. That should discomfort all of us.

Again, I would be interested in the Minister’s reflections on this situation. As I say, it would be hard to get in front of every single decision, but we should be trying to get in front of as many as possible. We would not want to bog down the process so that effective interventions happened in a less timely manner, but we could at least get away from introducing them 15 minutes before they are implemented. Again, that reflects a sense of chaos rather than order and organisation. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s views on that.

It goes without saying that the situation is now becoming more challenging. The regulations work, and our approach to tackling the virus works, for as long as people are willing to comply with them. In the beginning phases, people did incredible work and made personal sacrifices during lockdown. I fundamentally believe that that is a mark of the character of British people. That is the way in which people will continue to attack these challenging circumstances for as long as they have confidence in the measures that are being taken and they have a sense that other people—both their neighbours and at a national level—are complying too. Things like grouse shooting or Barnard Castle chip away at public opinion and make people think, “You know what? Forget about this. I’m just going to do it and see what happens.” That we cannot have, because our approach will fall apart.

Like the Government, the Opposition have said before that when infection rates rise, restrictions should increase. That is particularly pertinent in this case. We have all seen the significant and rapid rise in infection rates in Bolton, which is a concern for everybody, so of course these restrictions were necessary. There is an interesting nugget at regulation 3.1 that might be helpful for us: the closure of bars and restaurants at 10 o’clock. Of course, that is now our national reality. Again, we did not dispute this last week. We know that this is not something that has been built on SAGE advice or guidance; it is something that is not really based on evidence. I know the Government have relied on evidence from Antwerp in Belgium—that was certainly the line last Wednesday—which stretches credulity a bit, but Bolton might actually be a better example. I would be keen to know, because regulation 2.2 says that the reviews must be fortnightly and start on 24 September, which was last week. The Minister said that a review had already taken place, so it would be interesting to know what the impact of the closure at 10 o’clock was. Again, the picture that was painted by the Minister was one of younger people from diverse geographical parts of the borough, so it is probably fair to say that it is linked to the night-time economy. What has been the impact of the 10 o’clock closure? It might actually be the best evidence that we have for the national curfew.

Finally, I am really pleased hear that the local consultation was good in the case of Bolton, particularly given how rapidly things changed there. In relation to the new regulations announced for the north-east from the Dispatch Box last night—that is the right way to do it—given that we seem to have this conversation every time, it is hard not to be struck that the leader of Newcastle City Council,  Councillor Nick Forbes, said, “We have been having conversations, but this is the first we have heard of it.” I know him well and he is a very sensible, practical and not particularly dogmatic or partisan individual. I am glad to hear it is not the case in Bolton, but such a lack of consultation will not do for public confidence. Perhaps the Minister could reiterate that there is a genuine commitment to working in partnership and that local authorities will not find out about new regulations in the news rather than through conversations, even if the Government, of course, need the final say. Again, the Opposition do not intend to divide the Committee, but there are many elements that could be done better.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions on Gatherings) (North of England) Regulations 2020 Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions on Gatherings) (North of England) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions on Gatherings) (North of England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020 Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (North of England) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (North of England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Debate between Alex Norris and Matt Western

Monday 21st September 2020 General Committees

[Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Hollobone. I thank the Minister for her remarks and explanations of what the Government are seeking to do, as well as for her efforts over the past six months. It has been an awful lot of work for Ministers, and we are grateful; when we disagree, I hope that we disagree firmly but well.

It is a funny time to be in opposition. The clue is in the name: we oppose very many, if not most, of the things in the Government’s legislative agenda. We have significant concerns about some or all of them, so we seek to amend, we scrutinise, and in that way we hope to improve our parliamentary democracy. On any issue, it is very easy to engage in the narcissism of small differences, but in a pandemic that will not do. If the Government say, “There is a rule of six,” we could very easily say, “It should be a rule of five, or a rule of seven.” We could play that game all day—indeed, I was on the radio on Thursday, and people were saying just that. “You are too co-operative. The Opposition are too supportive of the restrictions being put on our freedoms.”

Similarly—obviously, this gained much more coverage—on Sunday morning, my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the Opposition reiterated that we support the Government on the restrictions being put in place. We think it is obvious that if the infection rate increases, restrictions have to increase as well, but there were some extraordinary comments on Twitter—this was just from our own side—about how easily we were rolling over. I should probably never look at the comments, but sometimes I cannot help it.

The point I am building up to, however, is that the well of good will is not unlimited, because there is a real problem. Hon. Members will have read their papers, and will know that what we are discussing now is long after the fact. I do not think we would be popping anybody’s bubble or revealing what is behind the curtain, if I can mix my metaphors, to say that today is a bit of a fool’s errand. We are meeting weeks and weeks after these regulations were not only put in place, but changed. The first one we are discussing has since been amended on essentially four different occasions. There has to be a sense of reality about what we are doing, but hopefully also a recognition that, fundamentally, as an operation, this will not do. Are these very significant changes to happen on a very regular basis, only to be scrutinised in Parliament seven weeks later? I do not think so. It is not good for us as an Opposition, and it is also not good for the Government or for Government Back Benchers.

Of course, these regulations came into effect on 5 August. At that point, people living in the 15 local authority areas specified, as well as Blackburn—which was already under alternative restrictions—could no longer meet in groups of two or more households in a private dwelling, or in groups of more than 30 people outdoors. A variety of other conditions and exceptions was also in place. I recall this well: I was up in Manchester myself when it was announced, visiting my sister and her newborn baby, and I needed to beat a hasty retreat lest I had to stay there. I do not think my constituents would have been too impressed by that.

Again, we broadly support these measures and the intention behind them, because we all want to halt the spread of the virus, and we know that keeping people safe must be the No. 1 priority. However, we as an Opposition have to put on the record our concerns that it has taken seven weeks for us to get here. I talked to the Minister before we started, and I am sure that her colleagues have had a series of different versions of these delegated legislation Committees over the past few weeks.

Normally, we would put up my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), but we are giving him a bit of a rest. I think that is why they have sent me out to bat: some fresh legs with half an hour to go, to run around and put a few tackles in, which has never been something I have worried about doing.

This point needs to be reiterated. We are rightly talking about having control of this virus, but there is concern across the House and definitely among the population that we do not now have control of the virus, and are certainly losing it. A big part of that control has to be our understanding and scrutiny of the regulations, their quality, and their effectiveness.

Of course, we need to act efficiently. We would never support a situation where important and effective regulation that was needed could not be introduced in a timely manner, because we had not yet got to Committee Room 10 to deal with it. We know the pattern on which the regulations will be popping up—a statement from the Health Secretary has just finished and there will be one from the Prime Minister tomorrow—and I do not think it is beyond the realms of possibility that new regulations are coming. However, while we are talking about regulations from seven weeks ago, when will we reach the new ones? Will it take seven weeks? I do not think that that will be in our interest or anyone else’s. I hope that the Minister will address that point.

I know that the subject has been raised many times by Members on both sides of the House, and in the other place. We cannot be here just to rubber stamp what the Government propose. That stretches things too far. I believe that we are taking responsible paths, although I say that with the caveat that I state whenever I do any media work. When I open my emails, half of them say that I have been too hard on the Government and am not supporting the national effort; the other half say that the Opposition are too acquiescent. Who knows? Nevertheless, I do not think that anyone would think arriving late and rubber stamping a measure is in our interest or is what our constituents need from us.

Mr Speaker gets upset, as do we, that often we hear of important policy changes on a Friday or Sunday night, long before Parliament has the opportunity to hear them. Sometimes I talk about that to my friends who are non-political and they say, “Well, you know, you can’t be that person who’s worried about being told first.” I remember Gareth from “The Office”, who would always insist on having the news whispered in his ear just before the big team meeting so that he knew it first. That is not the point or what we are saying. We are saying that we have a parliamentary democracy for a reason. It is a very effective one and has been this way for a long time. We all treasure and love it. We must be among its greatest enthusiasts because we choose to come here every day. We cannot lose that, even in the most important circumstances. That is when it becomes all the more important.

However, we have had regulations coming into force only a quarter of an hour after they are available to read. Including the five before the Committee, there are 17 measures being debated this week, all of which are already in force. Other regulations have come into force before being revoked and never seen. There seems to be no opportunity during this period of time to debate them, and that will not work. We are hoping for some clarity and commitment from the Minister, and an assurance that the Government are actively seeking to get upstream of this blizzard of regulations.

I would hate to take the job of Whip, held by my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington—I really would not want it—but I am sure the Opposition would be constructive about shifting the backlog if it meant that we could deal with regulations in something closer to real time. That would be better for everyone. However, this is not just about Parliament; it is a question of the cue we send out to the public. If they feel that the process is rushed or bypassed, there is a danger of undermining Parliament’s credibility.

People in the north are reasonable and intelligent—I am one of them. They are not daft and they know when things are being cooked up on the fly. I have heard that from friends and family. If they feel that measures are arbitrary, and that they have been made on the hoof, that undermines their confidence in whether they should stick to them or whether to say, “Just pop round, and no one will ever really know.” We know that in fighting the virus that will not do.

It is hard, as I mentioned a couple of minutes ago, not to reflect that we have just had a statement from the Health Secretary and there will be one from the Prime Minister tomorrow, and there was a chief advisers’ press conference this morning. We would never say no to hearing more information and certainly not to having more opportunities to talk about it, but it is hard to explain to a lay person what process of swift, clear and effective decision-making those things reflect.

Compliance is key to our success in getting out from under the virus and making the measures work. That is why we need to scrutinise them and have our say on them. As I have said, we do not propose to divide the Committee, but that does not mean we do not want greater understanding of some of the Government’s ideas. Certainly, as we get into discussion of curfews or hospitality closing times, we want to understand precisely the science behind such things.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. My colleague is making an important point. I hope Members will forgive me for repeating something that has come up at many similar Committee sittings. We represent communities to whom we are answerable, who want to know what is going on—why such measures are being passed, and why the policies are being imposed on communities. It is very difficult to explain what is happening when we have not had scrutiny or access to Ministers. Explanations should be upstream of any regulations being made, as my hon. Friend said. Back Benchers across the House are crying out for that. There should be a strategy that explains why the measures might be required in future. Strategic thinking needs to take place in advance, in anticipation of the circumstances. Does my hon. Friend agree?

[Alex Norris]

Yes, I do. Again, that is necessary for public confidence. We have supported the Government throughout. As infection rates decrease, we can open up more things and do more things. As infection rates rise, there will be greater restrictions. It would be better to understand what greater restrictions mean earlier in the process. Instead, it feels as though we are always running to catch up.

I am in danger of being much more negative than I usually am, but I have the chance to extol some virtues and talk about the benefits that we have today. We at least have hindsight at our disposal. We do not often get reviews of legislation this quickly after it has come into force, but today we have that. On 5 August, the seven-day case average in the north-west region, which is a good cipher for the area we are talking about, was just under 250. On 2 September, with the most recent of the four amendments, the seven-day case average was 486, and last week the rolling day average peaked at 1,200 on Wednesday.

It is therefore clear that although the regulations might have been effective, they are not entirely sufficient. That makes the case for greater restrictions. People need to understand that, even though it is frustrating. Certainly in the communities where freedoms have been curtailed, no doubt willingly, to beat the virus and protect each other, they need to understand the picture, what has happened subsequently and why we need to go further. We have a duty as an Opposition to point out that that was undermined by slowness in the early stages regarding personal protective equipment; lockdown itself; social care and more; the lack of scrutiny, as I mentioned; and particularly now, as we reflect on this here in Parliament, the shambles that is test and trace.

Short of a wonder vaccine, which will be gladly received when it comes, test and trace is our most critical weapon to get out from underneath this, but at the moment it is not happening. It is not working in a timely manner to properly find those who have coronavirus and to isolate them. That is why we are seeing the virus spread. Will the Minister update us on the progress towards getting a system that meets what the Prime Minister said in June about a 24-hour turnaround in response, because that is what it will take?

Can we hear a little more about what was briefed over the weekend? I am a man of the world—I understand that things get briefed to the Sunday newspapers. Since the beginning of the pandemic, we have been calling for a recognition that if those who are being asking to self-isolate are offered only statutory sick pay that pushes them into poverty, that will be an incentive not to comply with the regulations. That is not a good thing, but it is entirely human. The £500 figure was briefed over the weekend. Will the Minister tell us more about that?

I have three final points. We have not had much of a debate on the merits of these specific restrictions because the horse is three fields down by now, but it would be interesting to hear the Minister’s view on where we are currently and where she feels we will be next week, in a month’s time and in three months’ time. We want a sense of what the journey is, even if that journey means things are getting more challenging. Okay, that will mean greater restrictions, but what sorts of restrictions and when? It would be good for Parliament and for everybody to know that.

I am sure this is close to your heart, Mr Hollobone, as someone with a long history in local government, but will the Minister tell us a little more about local authority engagement? She said in her contribution that that has always been good. That is not always the picture that we get from local councils in respect of whether conversations have happened and whether the announcement reflects them. Can we hear what process is being used to engage with council leaders?

Finally, regulation 4 of the first set of regulations requires a review at least once every 14 days, so there must have been three since they came into effect. I wonder why the results of the reviews have not been made public, and whether they could be more routinely in future. That would give us something better to debate when evaluating their effectiveness.

I will draw to a conclusion there; I have made my point on timeliness and I hope the Minister can address it.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Alex Norris and Matt Western

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 3rd sitting: House of Commons
Wednesday 10th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Norris]

I will not labour the point, but the Government must act not just transparently, but transparently, publicly and proactively. That is something we would be really keen on.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

On a point of clarification, at what point does the MHRA intervene? At what point is the threshold—that is perhaps a better way of putting it—at which a recall is demanded? Depending on the product, at what point is that necessary and who bears the cost? I am not sure whether that should be covered by the clause, or whether it is simply within the remit of the MHRA.

[Alex Norris]

That is interesting, and if the Minister wants to intervene to address that point, I will take an intervention. Otherwise, my best guess is that it would be covered by the regs and, presumably, subject to consultation. However, I hope the Government have a clear trigger point, so that we are all clear and transparent about what will happen.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Alex Norris and Matt Western

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Monday 8th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Norris]

I beg to move amendment 15, in clause 12, page 7, line 27, at end insert—

“(d) the environmental sustainability of medical devices.”

This amendment obliges the Secretary of State to pay regard to the environmental impact of medical devices.

This is the “climate in all policies” amendment. We are in the middle of a global pandemic—an extraordinary time that we will all remember for the rest of our lives —but we are also in the middle of a climate emergency. Obviously, that was uppermost in all our thoughts a few months ago, and it must not fall down the order of priorities, because a similar existential threat exists as existed six months ago and it behoves us to act on it.

Amendment 15 is the first one relating to medical devices. To the principle that applies throughout the Bill of safety, availability and attractiveness, I think it would be suitable to add environmental sustainability, given that the types of materials used to create these devices could be finite resources. There could be opportunities for things to be reusable where they might at the moment be single use. I thought it important to probe this to see what the Government are doing, and could be doing, to ensure a medical devices market that promotes sustainability where that is responsible.

After tabling the amendment, I had a couple of emails from people making very fair points about things that could not be reusable. Of course, that applies to very many things in medicine; it is a very basic principle. I am very mindful of that. It is why the explanatory statement says “pay regard”. However, I think that the two things are compatible. There will be contexts where things that are currently single use do not have to be single use. I think that we should be seeking to promote that. There will be contexts where the market and the industry should be under pressure not to use finite resources, but to use all the considerable innovation to find other solutions. I feel that if Governments do not drive that in shaping the market, nobody else will. There should be pressure for, or at least interest in, buying British, for a variety of reasons. As well as being good for jobs and our local economies, that would be very good for reducing travel miles and therefore for sustainability. We have to decarbonise every industry we possibly can, so that applies to this industry also.

This is a basic principle that I seek in every policy—even though it might be a bit boring to hear me go on about it. We have to say, “But what about the climate? What about climate change?”. I think that this is the point in the Bill at which to do that. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s views on it, but also to hear what the vision is for shaping this market so that it is as sustainable as it can be.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point about sustainability, and of course linked to that is durability—the durability of the materials used in devices, particularly if a device is actually put into the human body. Of course, the durability is down to not just the effectiveness of the device or implant, but the cost to the health service of any subsequent revisions that may be needed, and so on. That is a significant cost, and therefore my hon. Friend is making an important point.