Education Committee

Tuesday 10th November 2026

(began 6 hours, 8 minutes ago)

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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Yeah, thank you so much. So I'm clearly here bringing that perspective of the staff. So it's interesting to hear some of the reflections. They're already and I would say that they're really, really diverse. So you're going to have members who are actually designing this tech and really involved in developing it. We've got members using it at work and embracing it, and we've got members with real concerns about what it means. And I think for me, this is quite exemplified by I'm being told by a Fe staff that it's different in different departments. So it's not even college to college where we're seeing different levels of adoption.

 We've got one department really embracing it and encouraging their staff to use it. And then we've got a department in the same college, like rejecting the same bit of tech. So I think we've got to be quite careful about like, how we talk about that in terms of those diverse ranges. And we're also hearing educators saying they're feeling like they're teaching themselves how to use this technology at the moment. And it's great to see Chris nodding along with me as well in terms of that, because I think it's good to have a shared understanding about that.

 And there's massively different levels of confidence in using the tech, and we've got staff telling us they're using their own money to access some of the tech as well. So we really do kind of need an urgent look at those things as well. I think the worst case scenario we've heard about is where humans are almost completely removed. So you've got AI being used to like develop a learning tool. The student is then using AI to respond to it. And then there's marking being done by AI as well. So you've just got computer to computer interaction.

I don't think that's anything any of us here would want to see. And I do want to pick up on the workload comments as well that that is not substantiated by evidence at the moment. We've got a workload survey coming out and workload is through the roof. So I think we and, you know, going up year on year. So I completely share that aspiration. We want to direct this tech so that it does help that very, very real problem. That's just not what staff are telling us at the moment in terms of their experiences of it.

 And we know staff are using it. So there is clearly an issue there because workload remains a real issue. And so I think our central concern and this is shared by other education unions as well, we've been working alongside them, is that we need to see a enhancing rather than an undermining the quality of education and the professional autonomy of educators, and really key that relationship between staff and students with whatever happens next that needs to be retained.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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So if I can not answer the question in two parts, one is the impact on the institutions. The other is how learners are benefiting from this. So we we've recently concluded, and I'll share with the committee a study that we've done with one of our partners, UFI Vojtech Trust, of our members on their adoption of, of AI. So it's obviously quite, quite timely. And I reflecting some of this, I think on operations on the back office operations, that's where they've made the furthest. So timetabling, scheduling, etc. next is teaching. So preparing teaching materials. Then they say learning comes next and last.

In terms of the impact, the positive impact is assessment for lots of the issues that have already been raised, which we've got some some numbers on as well. So that's, I think, the impact on institutions where they're, I think amongst my members are sort of cautious and growing optimism around their ability to use it very typically very sort of practical, outward facing organisation, sometimes quite small, looking to kind of see how they can shave a bit off hair, shave a bit off their improve a bit there. So naturally quite experimental and well supported, I've got to say, by the software providers, many of whom they've been partnering with for many years.

So lots of the AI innovation is going on in those partners as opposed to in the in the training organisations on learners. Just quickly, I think there are two types of learners who we're talking about. One is those who are doing the the AI and digital programmes. And I think this is a real beacon of success across the sector because apprenticeships in digital. Now, AI and cyber security are long established, often partnering very deeply with people like Microsoft and Oracle who provide significant educational resources. It's a real it's a it's something that we can be really, I think, quite confident of that.

 Apprenticeships in the digital space, including the modern AI and cyber security, are successful and mature. There's a separate question for what about those learners who are not on digital. How does it incorporate going into all of their learning? And I think the same. We find the same as has been hinted at already, which is that where teachers are unsure themselves, it's very hard for them to engage in teaching young people how to use AI if they don't know how to use it themselves.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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So I think that's really I think it's a really interesting question. In terms of T levels, we are seeing that the digital T levels are actually being updated to incorporate more AI. And they're also being consolidated, which I think is a good thing because it's about making sure that young people are very clear about the qualification they're taking and where it's going to lead them. So that's that's on the T level space in the V level space. I think what's interesting is that there is actually only going to be one digital V level. And you could argue that perhaps there needs to be more than one because it's such it's it's so wide in terms of the occupations and in terms of impact.

 However, in terms of having a V level, it does mean that you can mix and match. So you could be doing perhaps some business qualifications as your other two V levels, and then you could do a digital V level, which I think does offer an opportunity. Because going back to what we've all been saying, it's not just about those young people who are taking going into a digital career. We're all going to need digital and AI. So I think that's one of the things we need to consider realistically. To go into the industry. You probably need to have level three and above.

 So you also need to look at those high technical pathways and at level four five and level six as well. But I think when we're looking at level two and below, again, it's very important that those AI and digital skills are incorporated. So I think it's something we've got to consider as we move forward. One of the key challenges that colleges always talk about in this space is the ability to move quickly enough. In terms of qualifications, we have quite a regulated landscape here. I'm not commenting on whether that on the sort of whether that's positive or negative, but the regulatory aspect means that sometimes by the time the qualification is on the table ready to deliver, there are new technologies that have come on board.

 So one of the things we need to consider is how we can speed up that process of getting qualifications on the table. And when you've got a lot of reform going on, that's quite challenging.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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So I think the exciting I think AI can really help in both of those. So for V levels and T levels, anything where the vast majority is in the classroom and creating the experiences out of the classroom is the challenge, which we know for things like work experience, it is then simulation becomes a really important part of, of this. Now, you know, we, we can bring the, you know, flight simulators have been around for decades and are a crucial part of pilot training. They've never been around for other occupations because they're just too expensive until now.

 So that bit, I think is really exciting where you want to say to a young person, actually, we're going to give you an experience, not it's not the experience, but some experience of what it's like to be on a building site, on a railway track, in a hospital ward. And these technologies exist at the moment. So a couple to call out one which well established in the college network, metaverse learning, which is providing simulations where people can move around different environments, get feedback on what they're doing, and so on. So you can imagine that being easily brought into pre 16 and another one that funded in part by our partner UFI Vojtech Trust, called body swaps, where you are able to kind of step in, literally step into the shoes of someone so you can give feedback to someone and then you literally swap and you are the person receiving your own feedback.

 So really bringing to life in an emotional way. Gosh, okay, I know how I should be giving feedback. Not like that. So it really brings that to life. And then on maths and English, there's an interesting thing here, I think going on. So again, a joint member Activate Learning Group who are using AI as a maths and English tutor for those who are at the border. The border, the borderline. And actually I think this might be an interesting one where we're taking a human out of the loop because actually one of the problems for English and maths, for people who are having to do resets, who've really struggled through school, is having yet another human being feeling like they're being judged by yet another human being.

 So taking the human out of the loop and allowing a literally a computer to be the person guiding you through what could otherwise be a really awkward interaction because you're so painfully aware of your shortcomings on English and maths might be a way of actually overcoming some of those, those barriers. So I think there's some really interesting opportunities there.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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Yeah. Thank you. I think this is really interesting because for me, there are two lenses to look at this. The first one is the curriculum content. So where the V level, T level English or maths, does the curriculum prepare the young person, the learner for the world in which digital technology, including AI, exists and how they use it within that curriculum? So yes, if it's a technical qualification or a vocational, they might be able to use some some augmented reality and simulation, but also in a in a business related qualification, learning how to use this technology to achieve outcomes within the curriculum.

 The second lens is the student experience. And for me, this is something we can often lose. So understanding how a student may engage with the technology, teaching them how to engage with it correctly, and most importantly, not losing the students who don't have access to the technology through digital equity. And one of the one of the biggest concerns I have around the evolution of digital and technology, including AI in education, is that the digital poverty gap widens to become a chasm, no longer a gap, because for me, there are four key pillars. One is the the use of digital technology in a full size Qwerty keyboard.

The other is access to a device. The third is access to the internet, and the fourth is access to a safe and secure premium large language model. We heard Mary reference that staff are potentially paying for access to AI systems. The risk here is firstly, that then is not controlled within the organisations, tenancy and environment. That data is going into the public domain potentially, and I don't believe young people are aware of those gaps. And if they can't afford the paid version, they're then using the free version. So the risk is what intellectual property, what data, what information are they sharing with that free version and how will they exposing themselves.

 So I think there are two lenses. The first is the curriculum content itself. The second is the student experience and digital equity and how we bridge that gap.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Yeah, thank you. I think the first thing in terms of the the changes to the curriculum and the government's agenda is just really recognising, I think this committee will be well aware of the system that that we have at the moment in further education. It's a system really under strain. As you know, I spoke about workload in my last question. Like it's a really, really big problem. So I think any kind of changes need to be managed extremely carefully, but really engaging with the educators so that they're kind of ready to embrace those and take those forward.

 I think that's the only way that that's going to really work. And it's interesting about this concept of bringing humans out of the loop, I think, in the future will be screaming to bring humans back into the loop, actually. So I think, again, I think it's about getting that balance and really working that through. And talking about digital equity, I found really interesting because it could flip the other way, right? Where we are having too much exposure to like machines for students. And then again, like parents and teachers will be looking again for the, the human experience being the really kind of gold stuff that's in the system.

 So I think we need to be a bit careful about how we talk about that, because we could accidentally kind of create a bit of a digital underclass where it's the people who are solely being treated by or being taught by machines, that that then becomes the problem in our system. So I think we need to be really careful about how we embrace that and take that forward. And clearly, my view is that the way you do that is that you work with the staff and you work with their unions to kind of really work out what's going on on the ground.

 And just putting those guardrails in place, I think is the really important thing for the next step.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Okay. So I think there are many things that will help in terms of young people who are currently Neet and probably outside of the remit of digital and AI. So let's focusing on the digital, the remit of digital and AI. I think for many young people, again, it's about some of those skills. It's about digital literacy. It's about critical thinking. It's about how to utilize the technology effectively. And as I've already said, I think those skills are important, not just if you're going to work in cyber security, but actually if you're going to work in the health sector.

 So I do think those things need to we need to bear those in mind. I think, on the other hand, we also need to bear in mind that some entry level roles may be changing. I'm not that's not going to be the case in certain sectors. For example, in hair and beauty, in catering and hospitality, you always have those entry roles because your, your service, well, your you're providing a service. But in some other sectors, I think those things are going to change. We've seen the difference, you know, the changes in retail, for example, with things moving online.

 So I think we need to be preparing young people. That's really important. We need to be preparing young people for the future. But actually I think we need to take a step back and look at what happens earlier on in the education system, so that we're actually preparing those young people for the future from much earlier by providing vocational and technical options, which would also include elements of AI and digital. And I'm pleased to see that in the Curriculum and assessment review, again, they are looking at the importance of those those literacies to support young people.

 But I think in terms of Neet, there will be some some positives, but there are also some challenges that we need to bear in mind, Ben.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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So I think in terms of the the slightly broader question, the role of technology in whether we move from 1 in 8 being Neet to 1 in 6, I think getting hold of social media is a real problem because those children, those young people who are most at risk of not engaging in the labour market, you know, if you look at the reasons why it's a lack of confidence, a lack of self belief, they are more likely to be, you know, hidden at home, staying at home, protecting themselves from the outside world. And social media becomes the thing that they they do.

 So I'd say how we handle social media is a very big part. I'm sure Alan Milburn will have something to say on that. I think the other thing to say, if we are if the Melbourne Review is going to be as I. And I imagine it might talk about much better outreach to to people who are stuck at home and don't know how to get out the quality of information and how they use that information down to who the basic we don't know who these NEETs are. We say there's nearly a million. There's not a list of a million people, nicely organised across local authorities, loads of them.

We don't know. It's a survey based figure. So actually getting hold of information, manipulating it and using that then to direct this very scarce resource back to an area where definitely the human should be in the loop, which is this outreach work. How do we equip those people to go and find young people with the right interventions at the right time, amplified by smart use of technology, I think is really important on the issue, on entry level roles, the way in which there are a finite and diminishing have been a diminishing number of entry level roles.

 It's really important that whatever system is, whatever recommendations Alan Milburn says, do not damage employers engagement with the apprenticeship system. Because what we've including for older apprentices, because this is the the slightly counterintuitive point, which is sometimes the best way to help someone who is Neet get into a job, is to help the person who's already in that job and train them up. So actually, this idea that somehow apprenticeships should only be for young people is misguided because actually it's people who are older who need to be pulled up, which then creates a vacancy at the entry level, into which then that young person can go.

And then the final thing I'd say is there are going to be huge opportunities in AI and digital, and particularly around cyber security, which is the corollary of any good deployment of AI. And as I say, there is we do have a real, you know, you know, our AI and digital apprenticeships are really strong in this country, and we should lean in behind that and help them to to really flourish.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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So I think building very much on what Ben's just said there for me, prevention is better than cure. And the power of digital in relation to the Melbourne report is. So we're working on this currently at my college. The fact is that we know that will drive young people to become not in employment, education or training. We were aware of them. And actually through school data, through our college data, we can identify those at greatest risk and proactively target trying to support those young people in the journey and stopping them from becoming disengaged in education.

 The earlier we do that, the better. So at the moment, one of the benefits of this technology is bringing is we're able to use live data rather than historic data, with the triggers contextualized to our organisation and our catchment. So Portsmouth is one of the highest risk areas for for potential needs. And we're trying to proactively intervene earlier to support learners, to stop them becoming disengaged and leaving the sector, and also through trend analysis of student cohorts, understanding students who arrive from a certain social economic position, a certain postcode with an average GCSE score doing a certain type of subject typically don't succeed or need more intervention.

 Through using that type of trend analysis of historic data, we can target the student earlier and intervene meaningfully earlier and allocate the resources directly to the right people at the right time. That's what we're working towards, and I think that's something where technology will excel, never mind the role of technology in terms of keeping them in education through practical use, is very different to identifying them before they become disengaged and trying to help re-engage them, trying to identify what the barriers are to their learning and help break them down. So they want to stay in education or employment or training.

 So I think absolutely, it's essential this technology should help guide the strategy rather than the operational changes to for each institution to target those young people.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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So I think the point around too much exposure to technology is absolutely a valid one. But having led a secondary school during the Covid pandemic, where the reaction was we had to fast track technology to people and then train them to use it in a way that was meaningful. What I can tell you is technology is here and it's prevalent in education. So the digital divide is one that really does risk it. Typically, the students that are excluded from education, employment and training are those who are from a lower socioeconomic background and typically don't have access to the technologies.

 So actually, to, to the point that it could create an undercurrent of a digital class. I agree that too much technology is wrong, but we can't govern at the moment, govern or regulate that. But what we can control is the fact that we know a lot of education is delivered online, whether that's through a platform, through a digital solution, like teams or Google for submitting homework. So if we don't give students that access and that literacy skills and that confidence, that's accessible and convenient. So for example, saying to young people, okay, well, you don't have internet at home.

So if you stay till 6:00 every night of the week, we'll help you at the school. Young people aren't going to these particularly young people aren't necessarily going to engage with that solution. So the risk is becoming perpetuated by the lack of technology availability and the lack of digital equity to the point if we then achieve digital equity, it's important that we don't go too far and we lose the things that inherently we crave as individuals, which is human contact. So I think there's a balance to be found. But the risk of digital inequity for me at the moment is far prevalent and far more dangerous than the risk of digital undercurrent of too much technology.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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Yeah, absolutely. And for me, I think it has to be operational level again based on the organization. So we built a our own large language model for staff and students that was multilingual by design. It was accessible by design, with voice to text and text to voice. It had a light and dark mode and colorblind mode. So we designed a tool to be accessible. But the tool was always designed to be support the teaching and learning in the classroom that it was there to support the teaching and learning, not replace it, that the young people still needed a to, for example, to support them in their role.

 And I think the risk here at the moment is education's a bit of a precipice now, where recruiting staff to roles like Tas and Lsas is more challenging. And typically the entry requirements are lower, yet these people are the 1 to 1 support , helping young people with great need navigate a curriculum that potentially the LSA or to don't understand. Technology can play a role there in supporting it. But speaking to the point raised previously, the risk then is become this dependence on it. So there it's important that the organization, the institution and the individual have judgment.

 They get to know the young person, they get to regulate the use and the method of use. And this is where guardrails are so important. So the solution that I advocate for building your own is so that you can build in guardrails where it doesn't become overfamiliar, where it doesn't help you build a relationship. That's a physical bond to a technology that it remains precisely what technology should be an enabler, a facilitator, not a replacement for humanity. So I think this is where technology is a risk. Now it's it's making sure those guardrails are in place and that the human oversight remains in the loop at all times, so that we don't see young people being adversely affected by relationships with the technology or dependence on technology.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Yeah.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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And so I think there's some, some one of the areas which is most more advanced in terms of use of AI is around creating tailored teaching materials. So there's a solution called teacher matic, which a growing number of colleges and itps are using, which really helps teachers to, you know, late at night, it might be for, you know, I need I need some fresh air, you know, quiz quizlet cards to and it's 10:00 and I need them now and it will help them to do that. But it's also can be really useful for saying actually, I've got, you know, five of my students have needed particular extra help.

Can you remodel these these questions, this material so it suits them? Or can you just check that this is okay to, to work with them? So that is about, you know, in many cases, it's actually this is fine. And so they go into the morning confident that, you know, that it is going to work. So that technology, one of my members in Southampton, yuzu, is making extensive use of of that. There's another quite tedious admin bit of this, which I will, if I can write up the detail for the for the committee and send it afterwards, which is.

 There is money set aside by the Department for extra learner support, but claiming it is a real can be really painful and particularly for independent training providers who have to work interface with multiple local authorities in small numbers. And so a very, you know, far down the list of the local authority's priorities, they often don't get it. And so what happens is they tend not to ask for it, which means that resources set aside to help them to help send students is not making its way to the front line. So I'd like to submit a bit more information afterwards on that.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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So I think here it's really important that if you use a washing machine, don't know how to use a washing machine, you don't get very clean clothes. And it's exactly the same principle with this technology at the moment. Teacher workload can be adversely affected through trying to adopt AI. If there isn't differentiated training for the teacher and support and clear guidance on its appropriate use and the way it should be used. And I think that differentiate that differentiation doesn't exist in a lot of institutions, and partly to the point where previously that a lot of the the self deemed experts are there because they've they've tried, they've piloted or trialled the use of technology rather than they, they have a knowledge and understanding of it.

So I think I have seen positive impact on teacher workload, but that comes from significant engagement from the teachers in wanting to learn and develop and us as an institution, being clear with our teachers what they can use it for, how they can use it successfully. And having done a lot of the prep work in the background ourselves before giving that technology over. So I think here it's important to remember that if you put that in, you'll get bad out and AI perpetuates that. It just accelerates the process. So I think it's important to understand to the point made around Sen, if you can upload your lesson resource that you've written for your class and say, differentiate it for these five students with these needs, and you're clear in your prompt, you will get a very good output that will really help you.

But that comes down to your ability to understand the technology and what it does and how to use it. So I think it will have it does have and can reduce teacher workload, but it's about how we train the people to use it and the effectiveness of the system we give them.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Yeah. Thank you. I was very grateful for Ben, for raising our members working at 10:00 at night, preparing their lessons for the next day. That is far too normalized in our sector. And but it's very real. And I will challenge this notion that work, work. I don't think we've got the evidence yet that this is coming through the system. When you speak to teachers in Fe or educators in Fe, we've just done a workload survey as a union. It's going up every single year, and I don't think it's on the teachers either in terms of how well they're using the the technology or not.

I think it's there's far more to do in the system to support them, to kind of realize some of these gains that we've been talking about this morning. And, you know, I've heard that MPs offices are struggling from an influx of communication that's happening to our educators as well, where they're having far more to respond to because people are able to produce things at their fingertips. Likewise, I'm not sure we'll get there, but we had we wanted to talk about assessments, too, didn't we, in terms of how you're assessing work, and I think there's a lot of challenges that are coming down the track and they're already baked into the system.

I think workload is through the roof. It's going up. It's going up almost as quickly as the use of AI is. So we don't have that correlation between AI bringing workload down. And I think it urgently needs looking at. And these guardrails urgently need putting in place.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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Yeah. So I think it's really important that we understand the application for me is not to create the lesson plan. It's the lesson plan still created by the teacher, but the differentiation for the individual needs of the other students to be able to create six variations of the same lesson. That's a strength that can come from AI. I personally don't believe, although AI can play a big role in marking an assessment, I am concerned that it it shouldn't play that role because you learn your students more through marking than you do through anything else often.

 So that that for me is a concern. And we don't want a dystopian world where AI produces the answer and AI marks the answer, and the humans don't ever interact. So I think there's a challenge there. But I do think every every digital revolution sees us lose some skills. So it's about which skills do we prioritize as a sector and how do we find that balance to keep the ones we want? So we're planning lessons is a skill we want to keep. Then we plan the original lesson and we can use technology to help us differentiate it.

 So it's about understanding that. And to Mary's point around workload, there is no consistent approach to the adoption of AI or the training or the platform. So you won't see a universal decline in workload. What I can tell you is in institutions where I think it's being adopted, well, we are starting to see signs of workload decreasing. So I don't think you can take a one size fits all approach here.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Okay.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Thank you. Yes.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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To.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Yeah, yeah.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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So look, I was fortunate enough to support the the Chiltern Learning Trust in producing the materials for the DfE. And what's crystal clear. The sector technologically is in a very damaged state. We've all got different systems, different infrastructures, different approaches. The windows refresh recently caused uproar within the sector because people hadn't maintained their estate for the last ten years, and then they want to adopt a technology like AI. Most people were looking to the DfE guidelines to give them definitive black and white. This is what you can do. This is the platform you should use and this is how you should use it.

 The DfE aren't in a position to give that because of the fragmented nature, people that are leading institutions, and I count myself one of those are not experts in this information. In this sector. They have to really dedicate themselves to upskilling and learning to be able to make meaningful guidance. There are colleges up and down the country who will be putting intellectual property into the free versions of ChatGPT. That will be creating GDPR breaches by inadvertently uploading a classroom lesson list to AI, asking it to give some attendance targets. These mistakes will be happening. They will be happening at operational levels, and leaders.

 Governors won't be aware. And I've I've done I've supported schools and colleges up and down the country where I've had to flag. You cannot do that. Most don't have a meaningful AI policy. Even if the policy is. Do not use it because actually at the moment, staff don't know what they can and can't do if the policy isn't clear. So I want to be really transparent.

I think the governance of this is the biggest risk to the education sector.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Briefed.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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So
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Some sort of.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Would be .
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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A societal .
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None Portrait Speaker 14
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Entirely .
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Their .
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Specific and patchy.
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Those .
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None Portrait Speaker 11
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There's still.
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None Portrait Speaker 14
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I .
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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In higher education.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Reaches students,
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None Portrait Speaker 10
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UK.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Powered research .
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Relative to .
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Set .
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None Portrait Speaker 15
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Teacher .
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Or .
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Value .
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None Portrait Speaker 15
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Factors .
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None Portrait Speaker 13
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Have the .
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None Portrait Speaker 10
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This space as .
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Real .
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None Portrait Speaker 15
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Thank you, chair. Thank .
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None Portrait Speaker 16
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You very much.
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None Portrait Speaker 15
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And .
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None Portrait Speaker 14
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Necessarily going .
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None Portrait Speaker 15
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If we're assessing .
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Here, how .
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In how .
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None Portrait Speaker 15
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That assessment is .
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Find .
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None Portrait Speaker 10
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Which if it .
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Wasn't your work is .
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None Portrait Speaker 15
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Subjects .
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Rather than some.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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That sort of sits .
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Proper .
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