Public Services Committee
Wednesday 28th October 2026
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11:07
Lord Bradley
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Lord Bradley
Formally welcome you again and ask each of you to introduce yourselves, please, to the committee. I'm the chair of the committee. And then if each of you could give a sort of introduction to your perspective on where we're up to in legislative finance and supply and demand within the care system to introduce the session before we go into formal questions. Thank you very much. So who would like to start?
11:08
11:08
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
So good morning everyone. I'm Rachel Wardell, I'm the executive director for children, families and lifelong learning at Surrey County Council. And I'm here today representing the Association of Directors of Children's Services. So speaking on behalf of the sector. I suppose the few words that I would say about the current position of reforms is that, as you know, there's a huge package of reforms going through children's services at the moment. The Families First Partnership programme, which is really important , focus on children's social care and best start in life, and the package of reforms. So there's a huge amount of work currently underway in children's services.
The families first reforms need to be fully implemented by the end of March, so that progress is underway at the moment, and we're anticipating that that will have impact on the care sector, both in terms of the number of children who come into care and also potentially from the Children's Wellbeing in Schools bill, and the way that care is provided to those young people. But at the moment, I would say that there's a real challenge in the sector, and I hope we can explore that in this committee today.
The families first reforms need to be fully implemented by the end of March, so that progress is underway at the moment, and we're anticipating that that will have impact on the care sector, both in terms of the number of children who come into care and also potentially from the Children's Wellbeing in Schools bill, and the way that care is provided to those young people. But at the moment, I would say that there's a real challenge in the sector, and I hope we can explore that in this committee today.
11:09
11:09
Baroness Hollins
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Baroness Hollins
Should I go next? Okay. My name is Lucy Butler. I really am pleased to be here today. I'm the chief executive of Home and Future, which is the South East Regional Care Cooperative. There's 19 local authorities that are in the region of the South east. We have 15 signed up to the Regional Care cooperative, and we're working with 18 of those 19 local authorities to implement the fostering reforms. So from where are we in terms of the reforms? I can speak particularly to sufficiency and the work around that, probably less so on the wider things.
Before that, I was a director in the South East in two authorities. So I have that sort of background from a director's perspective. Just two caveats, I would say, about regional care comparatives. We were one of the pathfinders of South East with Greater Manchester. We are very new and we are dealing with a issue that has been around for 30 to 40 years, so we're not quick fixes. So just to say that, and secondly, you've just heard me say that we've got 15 of the 19 local authorities signed up to us. We're not mandatory. It's a choice whether local authorities join us or not.
And obviously we will be more powerful together. So so yeah, that's my intro.
Before that, I was a director in the South East in two authorities. So I have that sort of background from a director's perspective. Just two caveats, I would say, about regional care comparatives. We were one of the pathfinders of South East with Greater Manchester. We are very new and we are dealing with a issue that has been around for 30 to 40 years, so we're not quick fixes. So just to say that, and secondly, you've just heard me say that we've got 15 of the 19 local authorities signed up to us. We're not mandatory. It's a choice whether local authorities join us or not.
And obviously we will be more powerful together. So so yeah, that's my intro.
11:10
Lord Bradley
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Lord Bradley
Thank you. Lucy. Hello, I'm Geraldine Jackson, I'm deputy chair of the Children Young People's Committee at the LGA, and I'm here from the LGA. I am a I was a social worker for a long time ago, but I worked both in residential and in field work. But I then run Portsmouth Council for 15 years. So I've got both those bits of experience. I think the bits that I would want to highlight today is the financial pressure, which inevitably always happens and is. And people know about. But we're having to put in probably about an extra billion pounds a year across local authorities into children's social care.
And that's not funded centrally. I was with a council earlier this week. Their savings target that they have to hit is now over £100 million of of cuts this year. They need to find. I think the other things are the complexity of kids that we're looking after is growing more and more young people with complex needs in in mental health, substance abuse, exploitation, and the number of children we are looking after has fallen slightly last year, but overall it's growing. And that's a big problem. We have issues of unregistered homes and I'm sure we will come and talk about.
And I'm really pleased. Lucy is here from the care cooperatives, regional care cooperatives, because that councils have withdrawn from providing direct services over the last 25 years. And now we're having to probably go back into providing them. And we need to think about how that happens. And I think my last thing is, I think there's a real need for better coordination, particularly with the health service. We're getting the number of beds available for for children and adolescents with mental health, severe mental health problems has fallen enormously. And we're the we're the we're the, the end of the road with the buck stops with us and also with the criminal justice system.
Increasingly, young people are being sent for us to look after, not into not being locked up in prison, which is probably right for them, but it produces an enormous problem for us. So I know in my council, we've had one kid that we've been looking after, I think, costing £25,000 a week. Now, that's not unusual and it's becoming more and more common. So I thought those some of the things would be interesting to talk through today. Thank you all. Those are very interesting opening remarks which we will dig down into through our through our questioning.
And and I'll start with, if you, Lucy, particularly, but all of you to contribute around the new sort of care cooperative model that you're developing. You've touched on some of the aspects of it that you think will be helpful. Could you elaborate a bit more on how it's being rolled out, what the funding arrangements are with local authorities, how it will tackle sufficiency of of supply in the system and the issue around boundaries that you are incorporating.
And that's not funded centrally. I was with a council earlier this week. Their savings target that they have to hit is now over £100 million of of cuts this year. They need to find. I think the other things are the complexity of kids that we're looking after is growing more and more young people with complex needs in in mental health, substance abuse, exploitation, and the number of children we are looking after has fallen slightly last year, but overall it's growing. And that's a big problem. We have issues of unregistered homes and I'm sure we will come and talk about.
And I'm really pleased. Lucy is here from the care cooperatives, regional care cooperatives, because that councils have withdrawn from providing direct services over the last 25 years. And now we're having to probably go back into providing them. And we need to think about how that happens. And I think my last thing is, I think there's a real need for better coordination, particularly with the health service. We're getting the number of beds available for for children and adolescents with mental health, severe mental health problems has fallen enormously. And we're the we're the we're the, the end of the road with the buck stops with us and also with the criminal justice system.
Increasingly, young people are being sent for us to look after, not into not being locked up in prison, which is probably right for them, but it produces an enormous problem for us. So I know in my council, we've had one kid that we've been looking after, I think, costing £25,000 a week. Now, that's not unusual and it's becoming more and more common. So I thought those some of the things would be interesting to talk through today. Thank you all. Those are very interesting opening remarks which we will dig down into through our through our questioning.
And and I'll start with, if you, Lucy, particularly, but all of you to contribute around the new sort of care cooperative model that you're developing. You've touched on some of the aspects of it that you think will be helpful. Could you elaborate a bit more on how it's being rolled out, what the funding arrangements are with local authorities, how it will tackle sufficiency of of supply in the system and the issue around boundaries that you are incorporating.
11:14
Baroness Hollins
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Baroness Hollins
There's a lot there. So you might have to sort of prompt me if I forget some of those things. But so as I said, we were one of the two pathfinders nationally, so ourselves in Greater Manchester and they were chosen, I think, for that because we're very different. So Greater Manchester is a combined authority , and they already had a relationship with those ten local authorities working together in the South East. There was no real history of local authorities working together. So I think one of the things that we were focused on is how do we best collaborate to get a better deal for children?
And so the things that we have been focused on, we've been looking at joint commission arrangements in the region. We have particularly been focused on working with partners, health partners in particular, and in the South East. We've got five Icbs to provide a collaboratives. So it's not a simple picture. And but we have established a memorandum of understanding with the Icbs and with the provider collaboratives to work together to get better homes for children. So there's a really strong ethos, although that hasn't been replicated nationally. I think we haven't seen that, you know, the kind of jointness together.
So that's something we're particularly interested in working on. So we're working with health colleagues and our local authority colleagues to look at pathways of support for children and joint pathways, integrated pathways, and also to look at joint provision. So that's one of the big things that we're looking at. We've also been supporting the introduction of end to end fostering in the region. And South East, as I said, is a really big region. So to do that effectively, we've been working regionally. So we're working with five subregions to because it's really important that we stay close to to local authorities into place, but also we are looking at how we can bring the advantages of working in a regional way to, to better kind of have conversations with providers, to have a bit more control, to have a bit more say and to do the do the things that work at a regional level.
So we would say that local authorities are really good at commissioning services for children, but there's some things that you need local authorities to come together to tackle, and they're usually the more difficult issues like working together with health, really supporting children with more complex needs. So that's where we think the power of regional care cooperatives come in. We've also been doing a lot of work around workforce of residential workforce in particular, because what we're hearing is that they might not have the skills that are needed to support children with multiple needs. So we're looking at how we enhance training and support for residential workers.
And we are also looking at how we bring in the voice of children and young people into the work that we do. So really wanting to hear from children that have experience of tier four provision, that have experience of unregistered. We are really wanting to support local authorities to have the right homes for children at the right time. So and it's really interesting, I think sufficiency is a really complex issue. So people often say there's not enough there's not enough homes for children, but it's much more complex than that. And just a really simple example of that.
So we have 2000 and 220 children that are living outside the South East region, and we also have 1936 children outside of the South East that live in the region. So there's something for us to do to untangle that. It's just one example of how complex sufficiency is. How do we how do we kind of unpick that? And I think one of the really good things about regional care cooperatives is that it will be a national initiative. So going back to that statistic I just shared with you, most of the children from the South East live in London.
So we are doing a piece of work with London. And likewise, most of the children coming in to the south east are from London. So we're doing a piece of work with London to look at how we might work together. So, so you can see how bringing local authorities together and some of some of these issues can be tackled regionally. And some of these issues need to be tackled nationally. I hope that's answered your question and all of the things you asked me.
And so the things that we have been focused on, we've been looking at joint commission arrangements in the region. We have particularly been focused on working with partners, health partners in particular, and in the South East. We've got five Icbs to provide a collaboratives. So it's not a simple picture. And but we have established a memorandum of understanding with the Icbs and with the provider collaboratives to work together to get better homes for children. So there's a really strong ethos, although that hasn't been replicated nationally. I think we haven't seen that, you know, the kind of jointness together.
So that's something we're particularly interested in working on. So we're working with health colleagues and our local authority colleagues to look at pathways of support for children and joint pathways, integrated pathways, and also to look at joint provision. So that's one of the big things that we're looking at. We've also been supporting the introduction of end to end fostering in the region. And South East, as I said, is a really big region. So to do that effectively, we've been working regionally. So we're working with five subregions to because it's really important that we stay close to to local authorities into place, but also we are looking at how we can bring the advantages of working in a regional way to, to better kind of have conversations with providers, to have a bit more control, to have a bit more say and to do the do the things that work at a regional level.
So we would say that local authorities are really good at commissioning services for children, but there's some things that you need local authorities to come together to tackle, and they're usually the more difficult issues like working together with health, really supporting children with more complex needs. So that's where we think the power of regional care cooperatives come in. We've also been doing a lot of work around workforce of residential workforce in particular, because what we're hearing is that they might not have the skills that are needed to support children with multiple needs. So we're looking at how we enhance training and support for residential workers.
And we are also looking at how we bring in the voice of children and young people into the work that we do. So really wanting to hear from children that have experience of tier four provision, that have experience of unregistered. We are really wanting to support local authorities to have the right homes for children at the right time. So and it's really interesting, I think sufficiency is a really complex issue. So people often say there's not enough there's not enough homes for children, but it's much more complex than that. And just a really simple example of that.
So we have 2000 and 220 children that are living outside the South East region, and we also have 1936 children outside of the South East that live in the region. So there's something for us to do to untangle that. It's just one example of how complex sufficiency is. How do we how do we kind of unpick that? And I think one of the really good things about regional care cooperatives is that it will be a national initiative. So going back to that statistic I just shared with you, most of the children from the South East live in London.
So we are doing a piece of work with London. And likewise, most of the children coming in to the south east are from London. So we're doing a piece of work with London to look at how we might work together. So, so you can see how bringing local authorities together and some of some of these issues can be tackled regionally. And some of these issues need to be tackled nationally. I hope that's answered your question and all of the things you asked me.
11:18
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
I think I do, yes, and to sort of speak from the local authority perspective. So the first thing that I would say is, I think I agree very broadly with everything that Lucy has said about the advantages of regional care cooperatives and the the benefit, I suppose, of working at scale and also collaborating across boundaries. So when Lucy refers to children with most complex needs, they are quite low in number, but they are usually the children for whom it's most difficult to find a placement for whom we might be trying to find a placement in an emergency.
Quite often, what happens to these children, you know, is is a form of crisis, and therefore we're trying to plan for them and find placements for them in an emergency. That often is what leads to them being located outside of their home local authority. So some of the things that Lucy was describing arise out of the conditions. At the point at which a placing decision is made. And once you have successfully found a home for a child in which they are doing well, moving them purely for geographical reasons doesn't make sense. You want them to stay somewhere where they where they are looked after and where they're thriving.
So there are lots of kind of complex moving parts. And the thing that we can do very well together as an arc, I think, is to commission specialist provision at greater scale than any one local authority would need. But that is responsive to those kinds of particular needs. We've all, I think, referred to mental health as being a big issue. There are no longer the inpatient places that they used to be. Those children probably are better off outside hospital, but they do need specialist provision that meets their needs, and they are often the most the children that we're the most worried about and the children who most need stability.
And they do also need to be close to home because their their existing networks, maybe their existing education, which I'm sure we'll come back to later in this session. Family members and friends are all important to them. And so having a solution that is regional and close is really important. But I think I would say, and I don't think Lucy would disagree, is that asks aren't the answer to everything, and we shouldn't try to get them to solve all of the challenges. So there are lots of things that local authorities definitely already do well. And certainly many local authorities now are growing their in-house capacity and capability.
And we should encourage that because the local connection is vital and wherever we can deliver something locally without needing to reach for that scale solution. That seems to me to be the most sensible and pragmatic way forward. And the RCS offer that additionality for those complex placements.
Quite often, what happens to these children, you know, is is a form of crisis, and therefore we're trying to plan for them and find placements for them in an emergency. That often is what leads to them being located outside of their home local authority. So some of the things that Lucy was describing arise out of the conditions. At the point at which a placing decision is made. And once you have successfully found a home for a child in which they are doing well, moving them purely for geographical reasons doesn't make sense. You want them to stay somewhere where they where they are looked after and where they're thriving.
So there are lots of kind of complex moving parts. And the thing that we can do very well together as an arc, I think, is to commission specialist provision at greater scale than any one local authority would need. But that is responsive to those kinds of particular needs. We've all, I think, referred to mental health as being a big issue. There are no longer the inpatient places that they used to be. Those children probably are better off outside hospital, but they do need specialist provision that meets their needs, and they are often the most the children that we're the most worried about and the children who most need stability.
And they do also need to be close to home because their their existing networks, maybe their existing education, which I'm sure we'll come back to later in this session. Family members and friends are all important to them. And so having a solution that is regional and close is really important. But I think I would say, and I don't think Lucy would disagree, is that asks aren't the answer to everything, and we shouldn't try to get them to solve all of the challenges. So there are lots of things that local authorities definitely already do well. And certainly many local authorities now are growing their in-house capacity and capability.
And we should encourage that because the local connection is vital and wherever we can deliver something locally without needing to reach for that scale solution. That seems to me to be the most sensible and pragmatic way forward. And the RCS offer that additionality for those complex placements.
11:21
11:21
11:21
Baroness Hollins
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Baroness Hollins
And, and I think there's, I mean, you might want to ask Rachel this as well. I think there's something about the confidence in RCS. We are very new and, you know, and the statutory duties all sit with the directors of children's services, as you know. So it's a bit of a leap of faith, I think, to give all of your commissioning budget. And, you know, in the in the southeast, it's something like £1.3 billion. So it's a huge amount of money. So I don't think that's going to happen quickly, but we are more of a strategic commissioning body to support the bits that local authorities are struggling to do by themselves.
And I think you asked me originally how we were funded, so I will answer that. I remembered that . So the local authorities fund us. So we have a funding formula and the local authorities fund is completely. And so in a sense, we're like a member organisation working on behalf of our local authorities.
And I think you asked me originally how we were funded, so I will answer that. I remembered that . So the local authorities fund us. So we have a funding formula and the local authorities fund is completely. And so in a sense, we're like a member organisation working on behalf of our local authorities.
11:22
Lord Bradley
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Lord Bradley
11:22
Baroness Hollins
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Baroness Hollins
Yes. So there's a further five RCS that have just been established in the last few months. So they're very new and they are doing the kind of groundwork that we did initially, which is kind of bringing together data, establishing relationships, having conversations with their local authorities about what their priorities are. So that doesn't cover the whole of the, of, of England. That covers, I think, 150 out of 100. No, I think it's two thirds. Sorry. Two thirds of local authorities are now covered. It's 100 out of 150. Yeah. But there are plans I think, to roll it out further.
11:22
11:22
Lord Bradley
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Lord Bradley
Thank you. Just a quick couple of things. I think I used to work in the secure unit in a regional regionally provided place. And it was horrible being blunt where you lock kids in and they only exercise they had because of the place it was was in a yard, etc.. But I think regional care cooperatives are going to be enormously helpful, but not quick. I wouldn't I don't know. Where we go, but I'd have thought I wouldn't expect a huge amount of change within five years because they're going to have to get up and running, etc.
so don't expect things to happen too, too fast. I think we need to be absolutely clear about the scale of the problem. If we look between 2000 and 20 18 to 2022, the number of kids that we are looking after where we're spending more, more than £10,000 a week on a child rose from 120 to 1500 in a four year period, and it's gone up from there. So I think we've had one recently. We're spending £25,000 a week looking after a child. But I think the bit that's important is the regional care cooperatives can really help at the high end specialist end of the market.
I think we've got to be really careful about saying that the answer to everything, because, yes, it's really important when you're looking after a kid to try to make sure that you maintain links with family, with school, with friends, and moving people. Even 20 miles means that lots of those break down. And if you don't, the longer a kid is away from home, the more chance it is that that child will stay in care for a long time. So trying to work to keep those links of school and family going is best done at a local level.
Because we know at a local level what the connections are and how we can try to make sure we can keep those. So I think regional Kcop is enormously good for that for the for the the high end end of the market. I wouldn't want them to be able to solve the local stuff about fostering ordinary fostering and, and children's homes, places and things like that. And kinship care.
so don't expect things to happen too, too fast. I think we need to be absolutely clear about the scale of the problem. If we look between 2000 and 20 18 to 2022, the number of kids that we are looking after where we're spending more, more than £10,000 a week on a child rose from 120 to 1500 in a four year period, and it's gone up from there. So I think we've had one recently. We're spending £25,000 a week looking after a child. But I think the bit that's important is the regional care cooperatives can really help at the high end specialist end of the market.
I think we've got to be really careful about saying that the answer to everything, because, yes, it's really important when you're looking after a kid to try to make sure that you maintain links with family, with school, with friends, and moving people. Even 20 miles means that lots of those break down. And if you don't, the longer a kid is away from home, the more chance it is that that child will stay in care for a long time. So trying to work to keep those links of school and family going is best done at a local level.
Because we know at a local level what the connections are and how we can try to make sure we can keep those. So I think regional Kcop is enormously good for that for the for the the high end end of the market. I wouldn't want them to be able to solve the local stuff about fostering ordinary fostering and, and children's homes, places and things like that. And kinship care.
11:22
11:22
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Is it all right if I add something? It may be that your later questions will explore this further, but I wouldn't want to give the impression that when we're talking about place placements that cost £25,000 a week, that we're necessarily getting £25,000 a week value out of those placements. I wouldn't suggest that those necessarily better meet a child's needs than lower cost placements. So obviously children with complex needs, their placements are likely to be more expensive. They're likely to be more intensive, they will have specialist skills. But I don't think that we see value for money in those placements.
11:22
11:22
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
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Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
I just wondered, there are two things that come to me. One is for a tiny proportion of children, you will deliberately send them a long way away because the county lines or whatever. And I just wondered what percentage that might be if you could give us an idea of it. And secondly, when we talk about £25,000 a week, I mean, I did at one point work in an inpatient child and adolescent unit. I'm talking about 35 years ago, me as a nurse. But I don't think at today's value that would be any more expensive.
So I've got a kind of question. Do you think health are taking their responsibility seriously in terms of treatment? Because for some children, given the right treatment at the right time, it might be more costly then. But if you look over a five year period, it's cost effective.
So I've got a kind of question. Do you think health are taking their responsibility seriously in terms of treatment? Because for some children, given the right treatment at the right time, it might be more costly then. But if you look over a five year period, it's cost effective.
11:22
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
I can say a little bit. I'll take the health question first, I suppose, which is I mean, I do think health colleagues take their responsibilities very seriously, but I think they're chronically under-resourced. I think children's health funding takes second seat to adult health funding. And within that, mental health funding takes less. So they're not able, I think, to respond in the way that they would want to. But there are areas of conflict, and one obvious one is about children's behavioural issues, which may or may not be driven by a mental health condition and where if something is labelled as behavioural, it falls outside the purview of the health service to respond to it.
And we might have a very strong view that it is actually a mental health condition. So we do see that kind of conflict for sure.
And we might have a very strong view that it is actually a mental health condition. So we do see that kind of conflict for sure.
11:22
10:44
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
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Lord Faulkner of Worcester
Good morning. Thank you for coming to see us this morning. Very interesting answers so far. I'm sure there'll be lots more to come. I want to ask you about the market management measures contained in the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Act. Do you think it's likely to make any difference to the situation? The DfE reported that the children's social care