Economic Affairs Committee
Tuesday 20th October 2026
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15:22
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
When we get into the process of planning it out? You can think about whether the budget or the the programs that they're being offered are essentially over or on a rolling period of 2 to 3 or maybe four years where they're getting the moneys from that. Our proposal in the first instance, in the spending review system we're currently in, is essentially to take the integrated settlements, which we know what that money is for the next 2 to 3 years. Replace that with an initial share of income tax. We think corporation tax, but we can get into that as well.
And that gives them certainty over that period. And if you give them a share of their income tax that's broadly comparable. They get certainty for the next 2 to 3 years. And then they can think about what happens after that. You ultimately are making judgments about whether your tax base is growing or not. And all I would say is, in nominal terms, if you look at the tax base of some of the MSAs that we've looked at in detail, they have all grown variation, but they've all grown over the last 10 to 20 years, nominal terms in terms of that.
So you get some confidence and some certainty. But year on year you're going to get vagaries. But that is also true in the way that MSAs and local government is currently funded.
And that gives them certainty over that period. And if you give them a share of their income tax that's broadly comparable. They get certainty for the next 2 to 3 years. And then they can think about what happens after that. You ultimately are making judgments about whether your tax base is growing or not. And all I would say is, in nominal terms, if you look at the tax base of some of the MSAs that we've looked at in detail, they have all grown variation, but they've all grown over the last 10 to 20 years, nominal terms in terms of that.
So you get some confidence and some certainty. But year on year you're going to get vagaries. But that is also true in the way that MSAs and local government is currently funded.
15:23
Lord Young of Cookham
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Lord Young of Cookham
But perhaps the other two might like to have a go at the supplementary. To what extent will you be able to distinguish the extra efforts that are local MSA may have made that increases its revenue from the overall performance of the economy, which has, I would argue, perhaps a bigger income tax than anything in an individual MSA might do. Who'd like to have a shot at that one?
15:24
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, I think I think it's a couple of bits to that. Firstly, it's worth, of course, recognising, and I would say this in my capacity as leader of Medway Council, there are lots of parts of England still without an MSA. I know that's a long term ambition. So there's a there's a question mark around how do we ensure that parity between those with and those without. And I think we'll probably get into some of that as we go through this afternoon. I think you posed an interesting point. You know, Manchester, we've talked about Manchester already once today, Manchester which is not a key cities member, its core cities.
But rightfully they've said time and time again they've had the fastest growing economy out of all of the major regions. But but it's an interesting counterpoint to go. That's great. How much of that is because of the national growth and people with far greater economic brains and mind will probably go, well, this bit is definitely down to a local decision. This bit is definitely not, and this bit might be. So I think I think it's reasonable to say there'll be some tests and challenges. I think, as we go through this to say actually, is it around the local GDP?
Is it around employment rates? Is it around tackling NEETs? Is it around quality of housing? Is it all of those things plus more probably. And again, you know, lots, lots of I'm a fan of a KPI. I think there are good thing, but the challenge will be that you could almost have an unlimited amount of KPIs to say is fiscal devolution better or worse for a community? It will be better, but how much better? I think it is difficult. I accept it is difficult to go. Here are the five things. If you've ticked those five boxes.
Therefore, this has made it better than if you hadn't had those five boxes or indeed if you'd taken five different decisions.
But rightfully they've said time and time again they've had the fastest growing economy out of all of the major regions. But but it's an interesting counterpoint to go. That's great. How much of that is because of the national growth and people with far greater economic brains and mind will probably go, well, this bit is definitely down to a local decision. This bit is definitely not, and this bit might be. So I think I think it's reasonable to say there'll be some tests and challenges. I think, as we go through this to say actually, is it around the local GDP?
Is it around employment rates? Is it around tackling NEETs? Is it around quality of housing? Is it all of those things plus more probably. And again, you know, lots, lots of I'm a fan of a KPI. I think there are good thing, but the challenge will be that you could almost have an unlimited amount of KPIs to say is fiscal devolution better or worse for a community? It will be better, but how much better? I think it is difficult. I accept it is difficult to go. Here are the five things. If you've ticked those five boxes.
Therefore, this has made it better than if you hadn't had those five boxes or indeed if you'd taken five different decisions.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Certainly, and I'd say a large not all of the 22 members. Some are within MSA. So Salford, the previous chair was from Salford, but the majority of key city members are not currently in MSAs. But they're big, important parts of the community, places like Bournemouth, places like Plymouth, you know, those are important parts of our countries economic regeneration as we move from a point of austerity, but also places where people visit. So actually, I suspect those council leaders, often unitary authorities, but not always. And that's another part of this conversation, certainly from a city's perspective, is to say, actually, every part of England should have access to those powers.
And I'm very happy if the default is if it's an MSA, it sits with the mayor. I think there's always a conversation about local government as well. Thank you.
And I'm very happy if the default is if it's an MSA, it sits with the mayor. I think there's always a conversation about local government as well. Thank you.
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15:27
Lord Prentis of Leeds
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Lord Prentis of Leeds
Hi, everybody. My question is about equalization mechanisms. And I understand the conviction that fiscal devolution may well boost economic growth. And as Andrew said, it's one of the interventions the. I also understand that if you're redesigning the fiscal system, others will be arguing that there's got to be an equalization mechanism. And it may well be for some of the reasons that you've already said, it may well be that they don't have the revenue raising powers that another authority will have. It may well be underperformance. It may well be the cost of providing public services. So equalization is an inherent part of the discussion when talking about fiscal devolution.
So my my question is very, very simple. So what sort of an equalization mechanism would you propose to assist those devolved authorities with only limited capacity to innovate or to promote growth?
So my my question is very, very simple. So what sort of an equalization mechanism would you propose to assist those devolved authorities with only limited capacity to innovate or to promote growth?
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
MSAs to varying degrees will have some ability. You need to design a system where they talk to each other and they work. And the kind of that that is something where they have a policy role, they have a kind of strategy role and, and as well as delivery and implementation. And the, there is a kind of need for some principles rather than, you know, the conversations I'm currently having with civil servants is, let's not try and produce a neat table that has. Here's a row. This is what the strategic authority tier do. Here's a row.
This is what the local authority. It's about principles and how that framework will work. How do you how do you build in subsidiarity into that decision making? How do you build in kind of accountability? How do you build in alignment of incentives? If you're in a situation where for any given place in the UK, if the community wants one thing for the economy, which is different from the local authority that wants another thing which is different from the mayor, who wants another thing which is different from national government that wants another, then that place is going to get stuck and not go anywhere.
And so how do you actually recognize that all four parts, all four tiers have an equal status, have an equal importance, have an equal kind of state and stake in in that decision? That's the system that we can design. It's not the system we currently have. But I think that is the sort of challenge that if we are going to rewire the state quotes and quotes, then actually, I think we need to really look at building into that thinking. What does this mean for delivery of health and care services? What does this mean for transport?
What does it and. And each of those things, the balance between those four will look slightly different. You know,
This is what the local authority. It's about principles and how that framework will work. How do you how do you build in subsidiarity into that decision making? How do you build in kind of accountability? How do you build in alignment of incentives? If you're in a situation where for any given place in the UK, if the community wants one thing for the economy, which is different from the local authority that wants another thing which is different from the mayor, who wants another thing which is different from national government that wants another, then that place is going to get stuck and not go anywhere.
And so how do you actually recognize that all four parts, all four tiers have an equal status, have an equal importance, have an equal kind of state and stake in in that decision? That's the system that we can design. It's not the system we currently have. But I think that is the sort of challenge that if we are going to rewire the state quotes and quotes, then actually, I think we need to really look at building into that thinking. What does this mean for delivery of health and care services? What does this mean for transport?
What does it and. And each of those things, the balance between those four will look slightly different. You know,
15:48
15:48
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Clearly that reduces the capabilities of the other authorities. Indeed. But but equally the MSA is a kind of they're not some. dictatorial sort of organizations. Whether we've dropped the word combined authority from from the naming of them, but the governance of them are still made up. ultimately of a mayor with the leaders of the constituent authority councils. Those decisions then need to be passed through a majority. So there is a kind of there is still a kind of sense of the structure. And the system will look to, to, to design that. Equally, one of the things that we, we sort of call cities are very conscious of is, is kind of within the.
Eight constituent authorities that are. Eight English cities sit within our city councils are hugely.
Eight constituent authorities that are. Eight English cities sit within our city councils are hugely.
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Lord Razzall
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Lord Razzall
Are also part of the system that we can contribute. Yes. I mean, we should be clear, of course, that although it's easy to call them MSAs and merge and call them combined authorities. But the mayor for Teesside was very clear. The money should be given to him, not to his strategic authority. So, so I mean, I mean the there are two different levels of .
15:49
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Power there in addition to the others. I mean, I think there's a couple of bits. So so to, to use a wonderful cliche, the power should sit where it needs to sit. And I think certainly it's worth. recognising that where we are today from a local regional government kind of. structures is clearly, you know, we've mentioned the pause that the government is clear that it wants to move to everybody being a unitary authority. I support that as a principle. Key cities are certainly not opposed to that, but it's worth recognising today that actually in some of those.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
In both cases, I think would make sense. But we are where we are with that. So absolutely. recognising that. We talked about fiscal devolution earlier on, it's got to empower people, it's got to empower communities. And I think the Minister of State has been pretty clear on that, that devolution isn't just down to councils and mayors, it's down to backbench. councillors and communities. And I think pride in places is a really good example of a program that does exactly that. But it's also about recognising that it's not one size fits all. So what will work for a coastal.
community in the. southwest will be very different to a urban area in the northeast. And trying to have a system which is helping and supporting both those. communities in their wider. regions is tricky. It is tricky, which is why I think this conversation has probably taken longer .
community in the. southwest will be very different to a urban area in the northeast. And trying to have a system which is helping and supporting both those. communities in their wider. regions is tricky. It is tricky, which is why I think this conversation has probably taken longer .
15:51
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
MSAs rather than retaining with central government? So I think the I think there is a disadvantage in terms of potential. The interaction with business, I think, is the interesting one in terms of. particularly businesses that operate genuinely across the whole of the UK or, or globally. And how do you design a system where you don't get a kind of duplication of efforts or a duplication of.
15:52
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
There are times where you do there is sort of there is an equivalence in the kind of business environment to there is on strategic infrastructure. There are some things that are genuinely national. And I think, how do we how do we have a conversation where you can genuinely join together and streamline rather than have to, you know, work your way around every mayor and have and now, now, partly that is incumbent on us as local government and local government groups and mayoral groups to come together and to join, join those conversations together. So one of the reasons that core cities as an.
organisation exists is for me to have a conversation on behalf of 12 cities, as opposed to having to have 12 separate conversations. So I think they're kind of there are mitigations to that. But I think the kind of the risk of. duplication or kind of. proliferation of action is something .
organisation exists is for me to have a conversation on behalf of 12 cities, as opposed to having to have 12 separate conversations. So I think they're kind of there are mitigations to that. But I think the kind of the risk of. duplication or kind of. proliferation of action is something .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Power, I'm not sure I would introduce yet another tier of government. I think the only real. disadvantage is the risk of powers from local authorities going up. If devolution is supposed to be powers from Whitehall down to town halls, then you know, absolutely everyone's support. I, I found very few people who are not supportive of that. I found lots of council leaders who are. concerned about some powers which currently sit with them, going up to. Mayoralties and combined authority. So there isn't a huge examples of that. I think the planning area is probably the first one.
We're having that real kind of collective tension, and we'll work our way through that. But .
We're having that real kind of collective tension, and we'll work our way through that. But .
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15:54
Baroness Wheatcroft
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Baroness Wheatcroft
The major disadvantage. Yeah. Baroness Wheatcroft, thank you. To some extent you touched on this already, but I'd like to ask you about how you see the. tensions that you've already pointed to between mayoral strategic. authorities and other local authorities. How can those potentially get worse? And what would you like to see done to. ameliorate them? And I think, if I may, I'll start with you.
Vince. I mean, what's your. experience in Medway, where you have a county council?
Vince. I mean, what's your. experience in Medway, where you have a county council?
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I mean, actually the the region of Kent and Medway, 14 councils, one unitary, one county, 12 boroughs. You know, if you if you came to us 15 years ago, it would have been 13 conservative. councillors and one Labour council. Now we have one Reform Council, an independent council, Greens, Lib Dems, conservatives, Labour. So it's very politically diverse. But interestingly, on this issue of wanting us to be a combined authority and we're kind of not overly precious about exactly what form that is. Actually, there's been. unanimity the 14 of us have written on more than one occasion to more than one secretary of state over the last couple of years, with a very clear message to say, yes, we disagree on pretty much everything.
Some of us, and sometimes we even wear the same rosette. But on this issue, we're absolutely front and centre because we know for the. 1.9 million people that we collectively.
Some of us, and sometimes we even wear the same rosette. But on this issue, we're absolutely front and centre because we know for the. 1.9 million people that we collectively.
15:56
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
You know, we're losing out. You know, we're losing out to potentially Essex and Sussex as our nearby neighbours. London is a different thing. We're near London, as people will be aware. That is a different conversation. But but absolutely. And we see it now. So we had a. conversation with lots of arms length bodies came to Medway last week. It was great to welcome there. And we had the example that one of those organisations over the last ten years has put. £50 million into our area. Sorry, no. £5 million and. £50 million approximately into Salford, you know, so ten times as much.
Now, some of that will be for lots of different reasons, but some of that undoubtedly will be because Salford is within a very. successful mayoral authority. So I think we see the real time .
Now, some of that will be for lots of different reasons, but some of that undoubtedly will be because Salford is within a very. successful mayoral authority. So I think we see the real time .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Different different. organisations and the different levels. I've always said it's better to have a bad mayor than no mayor, and I've always believed that. I continue to believe that. The nature of politics is the fact that you have to deal with people of other political. persuasions to bring investment into your area. We do that now. You know, we've got a strong.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The mayoral. So there are there are definite tensions. There are there are tensions. There are sort of policy tensions, there's personality tensions, political tensions, and all of those things exist and will always exist. It's, you know, it's the nature of the beast. And to some extent, I think where where it's. successful is where there is a sort of mutual.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
A mutual respect, and a mutual dependence. between the local. authority leadership and the mayor and the mayoral strategic authority leadership, and a realization that, you know, there is a need. This is an ongoing conversation. This is an ongoing relationship, this sort of you need to get round the table. And even if you disagree on things, you know, you've got a meeting next week and you've got to have you've got to you've got to do it again. I think one of the things that is, is. materially different is if a leader of any of my 12 leader of a council of any of my 12 cities has an issue over a particular decision their mayor has made.
They know who their mayor is, and they can kind of phone them up and they will have they will be able to get a meeting that day if there is a particular issue, if the issue is something to do with how Jobcentre Plus is.
They know who their mayor is, and they can kind of phone them up and they will have they will be able to get a meeting that day if there is a particular issue, if the issue is something to do with how Jobcentre Plus is.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The ones that are kind of working most effectively or have worked most. effectively are the ones that sort of recognise that. relationship and they kind of know on a given issue, where is it that you want to kind of, you know, hold your ground, take a position? Where is it that you want to share between things? Where is it that you want to kind of stand behind your mayor and send the mayor into to bat on the issue? And I think I think it's .
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Baroness Wheatcroft
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Baroness Wheatcroft
Than the tension. Just be a product of the system. I think it's probably. Thank you very much, Andrew. What I'd like to ask you is to go back to a point that you you made really right at the beginning of the session about how. individuals were very confused about who was. responsible for what anyhow at the moment. And do you think that the the tensions might be.
ameliorated to some extent if there was .
ameliorated to some extent if there was .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Who's in charge and didn't get an answer for the best part of 40 years. Right. I mean, so there is something in that. And surprisingly, the public say, who's responsible for this? And the answer is, well, it's all very. complicated and we'll tell you, but it's, you know, here's a policy brief that you should read in your own time. So the advantage of the mayor is essentially to try and cut through some of that. And as I said to you, you know, we did I mean, this was a few years ago, but nevertheless, we asked the public in Greater Manchester, in Tees Valley, in the West Mids, etc., the places that had had had mayors for a while, you know, various numbers of questions about could they name their mayor?
Did they know what the mayor was responsible for to pick anyone at random? But let's pick the place where the prime minister was, the the former Metro mayor. 85% of the public knew they had a mayor could name him and could say 2 or 3 things that he was. He was leading on and responsible for. You know, this is not a slight. When we asked them could they name their local MP, they said no. And when we asked them if they could lead their their council leader, about 10% of them could do that. I make no judgment other than it tells us something about awareness and.
Did they know what the mayor was responsible for to pick anyone at random? But let's pick the place where the prime minister was, the the former Metro mayor. 85% of the public knew they had a mayor could name him and could say 2 or 3 things that he was. He was leading on and responsible for. You know, this is not a slight. When we asked them could they name their local MP, they said no. And when we asked them if they could lead their their council leader, about 10% of them could do that. I make no judgment other than it tells us something about awareness and.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Particularly for those mayors that are doing the job well. And that is comparable not just in Greater Manchester. The numbers were very similar, if not higher, in London and equally in the Tees Valley and elsewhere. So there is something about public. awareness and public. understanding of the. mayoral model. And if we can use that and fortify that with actually giving them. responsibilities that people think they have, even if they don't necessarily have them at the moment.
I think that strengthens all of this.
I think that strengthens all of this.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
A positive, because it will alienate quite a few people? Yeah, it introduces a new challenge for the mayors. Let me be let me say that. And I think it is noticeable. And again, I'm not speaking out of turn. It is. noticeable that several of the mayors, past and present, were. reluctant to take that and didn't advocate for that particular power precisely for the reasons that you've you've advocated in the sense they are trying.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
By discussion, etc. but there is also a recognition, and you see this in the way that the government is evolving the system, that the system is essentially evolving to. When those things reach an impasse, that the mayor has the executive. capability to make the decision doesn't mean it's the first they they go there first. They should probably think about them as last resort interventions. But that is where the system is going. And that essentially for the mayors outside of London, is essentially giving them some comparable executive. capabilities to the mayor in London calling being a perfect example, where the mayor.
essentially has the. responsibility and the capability to call in certain planning of a certain that fulfils a certain set of.
essentially has the. responsibility and the capability to call in certain planning of a certain that fulfils a certain set of.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Hasn't been done very much over the duration of the London mayor's been in existence hasn't really been done very much because it's the last resort. But I do think we have to think about, you know, those types of interventions. And if not, and I'll stop for no other reason, because the other conversations we've had, they are responsible for the strategic. decisions at that scale. The authorities are not. And also they're the only authority politician around the table that is directly elected at that scale. Their mandate comes from being being elected by the entirety of that place, not one ward or not even one council.
By the entirety of that place. There should be something in the system that. recognises that and allows the mayors to make.
By the entirety of that place. There should be something in the system that. recognises that and allows the mayors to make.
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Lord Carrington of Fulham
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Lord Carrington of Fulham
Thank you very much. That brings us on. Well, to Lord Carrington. Thank you. I want to bring us on to a continuing, I think, the discussion about democratic accountability in all this. I was very worried by the last lot of answers where you were saying that the mayor should have the power because he's elected or she's elected by a large electorate who. And therefore he failed to impose his or her views on that electorate. And I'll bring you to London . Since we've discussed London and I'm a London politician, I don't pretend to be a to have great knowledge about Manchester and so on, but the structure in London is one that actually isn't being replicated very often, where you have a lot of very powerful boroughs, which are historic boroughs and which are have a whatever the local politicians name recognition is, the borough has a lot of recognition of where people live.
They see themselves as living in Kensington, Chelsea, Westminster, Hammersmith, Fulham, Hackney or wherever . The mayor is elected across the whole of London, which in London is a very, very. Differentiated city. In other words, there are people who very strongly vote Labour, people who very strongly vote conservative, people indeed, who very strongly vote Liberal Democrat down in the South West and the increasingly Greens as well. Are you actually saying that the mayor and the new mayor's coming out in the strategic authorities should have the power to impose their partisan view on the local people, say the mayor of London, imposing his partisan view on a borough which is a different political colour to that of the mayor.
They see themselves as living in Kensington, Chelsea, Westminster, Hammersmith, Fulham, Hackney or wherever . The mayor is elected across the whole of London, which in London is a very, very. Differentiated city. In other words, there are people who very strongly vote Labour, people who very strongly vote conservative, people indeed, who very strongly vote Liberal Democrat down in the South West and the increasingly Greens as well. Are you actually saying that the mayor and the new mayor's coming out in the strategic authorities should have the power to impose their partisan view on the local people, say the mayor of London, imposing his partisan view on a borough which is a different political colour to that of the mayor.
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Lord Carrington of Fulham
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Lord Carrington of Fulham
Actual decision we're talking about here is. So if we're talking particularly about let's talk about let's talk about housing. Because housing in London has always been the critical one since Herbert Morrison, in his famous quote about building conservatives out of London. Well, you know, you give a Labour mayor or indeed a conservative mayor, and the same criticism could be made of Westminster City Council. 30 years ago was attempting to gerrymander the vote by deciding where housing should be placed and what type of housing that should be over the decisions of the local .
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Lord Carrington of Fulham
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Lord Carrington of Fulham
Should have? So I've not I'm not arguing for that and haven't been. But I thought you were saying that mayors should be able to call in planning applications and be able to decide them. The mayor in London has just decided to close Oxford Street to traffic without making any provision for where the buses go elsewhere, against the wish of Westminster City Council. Is that a decision that the mayor should be able to take in that sort of circumstance? What I'm what I'm saying is that what power should the mayor have to be able to dictate in any any city to dictate against the political wishes of the .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The kind of where it is a decision that is genuinely, strategically. significant for beyond that. So Oxford Street being a good example, Oxford Street is not just a street in the middle of. Westminster City Council. It is a kind of, you know. service offered the entirety of London in terms of its retail offer. There are there are aspects where there is a strategic decision for a bigger geography than just the local council one. So there is an element of where there is , where it is something that firmly falls into a decision that genuinely affects the whole of the geography that the mayor sits atop.
I think there is a legitimacy for at least a role in and a decision that the bit I would emphasize, though, and it kind of plays to Andrew's last resort point is it isn't how a mayor should operate, because they will get stuck on every other decision if they throw their weight around, if they are imposing decisions against the views of individual councils on the few, the very few things that they do genuinely have that executive decision making power on everything else that is subject to them operating through a committee based system with their constituent authorities.
Admittedly, London is a different operating model to the ones that I represent. They will get stuck, they will not make any progress. And so the ability to do so does not mean the ability to, to, to act and to, and you should do so. I think there is, you know, there's nuance in what might be .
I think there is a legitimacy for at least a role in and a decision that the bit I would emphasize, though, and it kind of plays to Andrew's last resort point is it isn't how a mayor should operate, because they will get stuck on every other decision if they throw their weight around, if they are imposing decisions against the views of individual councils on the few, the very few things that they do genuinely have that executive decision making power on everything else that is subject to them operating through a committee based system with their constituent authorities.
Admittedly, London is a different operating model to the ones that I represent. They will get stuck, they will not make any progress. And so the ability to do so does not mean the ability to, to, to act and to, and you should do so. I think there is, you know, there's nuance in what might be .
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Lord Carrington of Fulham
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Lord Carrington of Fulham
Permissible versus what is actually advisable that I think is material in this. Okay. So just, just moving on, I've had my rant just moving on. Where the money goes. If it goes to the combined authority, to the strategic authority, and is allocated based on a consensual decision by that authority, that's one argument we've had put to us. That's the way it should work. We've had other arguments put to us, and I think you mentioned the mayor of of Lord Hutton Halton, saying that it should go to him in his area because that's where it'd be most effective and it should go to him.
You're saying that it should go to the strategic authority to be spent out of the strategic authority, not out of the mayor, with the mayor .
You're saying that it should go to the strategic authority to be spent out of the strategic authority, not out of the mayor, with the mayor .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Being able to be. overruled by the strategic authority. I think in the main, I think I would say that, yes, you should look for using the the thing that was established, which was the combined authority. Now strategic authority as the. principal enacted. But I think it it's one of those things that depends on what the money, which element of the money we're talking about. So something like the overnight visitor levy is a good. illustration of where that revenue will be raised within any strategic authority. Geography will not be even. So, if I think of the amount of visitors that come into the the core cities that I.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Smaller unitary authorities that surround the hinterland. We are comfortable with the money being collected and operated at a mayoral geography area, and and the kind of strategic authority being the. operator of the visitor levy. I think we as core cities have an argument and a discussion within our group, but not just with the mayor, but with our constituent authorities that surround the core city, which is if this funding is to be reinvested in improving the visitor economy, driving up visitors, driving up the.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
A disproportionate amount of the money that is not only raised in the core city should probably then be spent in the core city to improve the services to visitors. That is a sort of different discussion to a conversation about. improving transport access to actually that the kind of almost you might want the money to go. disproportionately away from this, the hub centre, if the the kind of the metro system is already built and where the money should be going on is extending it out to the towns and boroughs surrounding to bring more people in. So depending on what the issue is, the funding shouldn't.
necessarily equally just be pro-rata divide by six type model. But but should recognise what's the what's the objective? And I think having that consensus amongst the constituent authorities and the .
necessarily equally just be pro-rata divide by six type model. But but should recognise what's the what's the objective? And I think having that consensus amongst the constituent authorities and the .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Casting vote, and that is the model you think should be when when that legislation was passing last year, last year we had a debate about whether you needed to pro rata the population size of the authorities, because it's not all authorities have the same sort of scale of populations and therefore do. But I think we we accept that the reality. It plays to the the answer to the previous point, if you're in a situation where you're voting on every issue, something's gone wrong upstream. And I think that is the sort of our sense is you need to make this work.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The East Midlands Combined Authority has been operating with two Labour cities, two reform counties and a Labour mayor. The North East Mayoral Combined Authority has now a Lib Dem led green coalition in Newcastle. Reform around most of the rest of the place and a Labour mayor. These bodies aren't in the news at the moment because they're completely dysfunctional. They're kind of. The reality is that kind of. Once you're in the room, most people, depending on what they're wearing, have stood for local. council because they want to try and make their place better. And I think that kind of.
overriding drive and, and, and sort of. motivation for people wanting to become on the .
overriding drive and, and, and sort of. motivation for people wanting to become on the .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
A it's a collection of. And it's very difficult electorally to change cabals. Well, except the cabal, I wouldn't use that word is a mixture of people either elected as councillors or elected as councillors or as elected as mayors. It is not a kind of. It is a group of people who are fundamentally sitting in those jobs because of decisions by the electorate. And if the .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Balanced by responsibility? That was me that said that. And and that's let me put that in the context of the previous comment. So that was around exceptional financial support. So original exceptional financial support, kind of the first 3 or 4. Those were councils that made bad decisions. Yes. The electorate put them there. But the, the, the, the councils council leaders made bad financial. decisions and therefore government had to support them. But government were also supporting them with a very. punitive interest rate. PWB plus 1%. So so. therefore less the. electorate who yes, they put those people in power, but they didn't make the specific.
decisions are now having less resources available to their day to day services. And this has changed under the most recent government. But yeah, at that point, less money was available for local services because additional money was having to be paid to government through the exceptional financial support programme. So that's that's my context of it is ultimately in that case, electorates who are losing out .
decisions are now having less resources available to their day to day services. And this has changed under the most recent government. But yeah, at that point, less money was available for local services because additional money was having to be paid to government through the exceptional financial support programme. So that's that's my context of it is ultimately in that case, electorates who are losing out .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Will in fact suffer from those bad decisions. I think I think I think there is a there's a. genuine question about how where the backstop is. So, you know, do we want to be in a situation of Detroit where bad decisions were made and the sort of federal position was to step away completely from the city of Detroit and the people of Detroit struggling. I don't think we probably want to model our design of our system on. zero sense of backstop. But equally, you don't want a situation where there is literally no downside because as you say, that that undermines the the incentives.
So I think the kind of there is an interesting design question about where do you put the level of sort of local accountability and local responsibility for future. decisions in terms of taking increased .
So I think the kind of there is an interesting design question about where do you put the level of sort of local accountability and local responsibility for future. decisions in terms of taking increased .
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Lord Burns
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Lord Burns
Those kind of questions. Thank you very much, Lord Burns. Thank you, chairman. Government's plans for local government. reorganisation seem to have come to a halt. So what. happens now is my question. Is it possible to have a workable governance system for the whole country that people can understand? I mean, what I've been listening to this afternoon certainly leaves me in a position of having almost less understanding. I think of what I thought a different bodies here had in terms of both their powers and responsibilities. And, you know, I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that cities have an increasing part to play in economic performance, particularly on things like planning and.
transport systems. But what is the the what is the kind of local government system that is going to work best with that view, and with the position of the combined. authorities and the local mayors? Is there, do we need one model or can we let a thousand flowers bloom? What is the mechanism that is going to. Or the governance system that is going to give people a clearer idea of what the different. levels here are going to be doing? I mean, I understand the question of the people. Now, the point, not a question of the point, that there is greater.
identification about the mayors than there is about other aspects of of local government. But doesn't this simply mean they're going to be blamed for more and more things, and that it would be assumed that they have this power they will then wish to acquire if they're going to take the.
transport systems. But what is the the what is the kind of local government system that is going to work best with that view, and with the position of the combined. authorities and the local mayors? Is there, do we need one model or can we let a thousand flowers bloom? What is the mechanism that is going to. Or the governance system that is going to give people a clearer idea of what the different. levels here are going to be doing? I mean, I understand the question of the people. Now, the point, not a question of the point, that there is greater.
identification about the mayors than there is about other aspects of of local government. But doesn't this simply mean they're going to be blamed for more and more things, and that it would be assumed that they have this power they will then wish to acquire if they're going to take the.
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Lord Burns
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Lord Burns
They will then wish to acquire the the powers. How do we set up a system really, that is one which people are going to be able to understand throughout the country. I mean, it all seems, you know, like I can try, you know, let's see what will try a different a few different systems and. decide which one seems to be working best. But how long is that going to take to, to resolve itself? I mean, is it clearer wiring.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Diagram necessary at this point? If we're going to make this work? I I'd say a few things on this firstly. So I've only ever served on a unitary authority. I've only ever been on a unitary authority. So I've never had that situation where as a councillor , someone phoned me up and I've had to go. No, that's the other councillor. Yes, for your street. But on the other council, most of my.
colleagues have that experience in local government, certainly across England. So I think the government is right to say, actually we should move to.
colleagues have that experience in local government, certainly across England. So I think the government is right to say, actually we should move to.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Across England. Not a universally held view, I have to say. Some people, particularly more so in district and borough councils rather than county council, probably share that view. But I would say there is a consensus to say government has taken that view and most people would say that's sensible. Why is that important to this question? Because absolutely at the.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
And we saw the example when Kent and Medway went forward for seeking to become a devolution priority place. The response from government was, well, you can't have a governance structure where you've got two institutions. One of. 16% of the residents, aka Medway and the other one with 84% of the residents, aka Kent County Council. So. So I think that does two things. I think longer term, moving to everyone, being a unitary authority across England is the right the single tier of local government. I think we are in an interim phase, though the pause probably. amplifies that more.
And certainly, as I said earlier on, I think there are. examples where having the voice of district and borough.
And certainly, as I said earlier on, I think there are. examples where having the voice of district and borough.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think most people would go, that's not. unreasonable to be wanting to hear from them, not least in the kind of remit of growth, because some of those are the real economic drivers for their regions, say Exeter and Norwich being a couple of examples I'd certainly use there. So I, I think it is right that we go on that journey. It's difficult because we're trying to do almost as as a local government family, almost three different things at the same time, sort out the mess of English local government with its different tiers. I mean, we haven't even talked about town and parish councils today.
That's probably could be a whole separate evidence session on loads of different issues. But so district unitary. counties resolve that issue, resolve the issue of saying.
That's probably could be a whole separate evidence session on loads of different issues. But so district unitary. counties resolve that issue, resolve the issue of saying.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Is it right that. communities feel more empowered? I would say yes. Is there a mayoral system, the right system for that? I'd say it's the least worst option to quote other things in other places. No system is perfect, but trying to do both of those big. fundamental shifts is really difficult because absolutely. Then the third issue comes from we've had, and it's not a particularly partisan comment, but there are no council leaders going, I've got too much money. There are no council leaders saying that. There are plenty of us going. We're really struggling. Adult social care is an increasing issue.
Temporary accommodation is an increasing issue. So you're trying to sort out the day job creating new. council and think about something which sits strategically above that. That's a challenging set of. circumstances and the government's right to say we've got to move at pace. I agree with .
Temporary accommodation is an increasing issue. So you're trying to sort out the day job creating new. council and think about something which sits strategically above that. That's a challenging set of. circumstances and the government's right to say we've got to move at pace. I agree with .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Them, but that is challenging in itself to I would. absolutely recognise that. I think the for the eight English core city councils that I represent, only Nottingham were impacted by the change on local government. reorganisation compared to some of the other local government groups you've had in front of you, so I won't overly comment on that. I would note that we've just recently heard from the Scottish Government that they're talking about local government reorganisation in Scotland, and so for Edinburgh and Glasgow, that opens a debate that we hoped we were coming towards the the closure of in in an English context, I, I think the point I think we have an incredibly.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
System of. governance in, in England, UK, I would include in the same. There is an. opportunity in having a government and a Prime Minister who has put such. attention on this issue being something that they want to resolve that for the first time at least, it is in the top handful of priorities for the Prime Minister to make this better. I think what is incumbent on all of us acting within the system is to work with that impetus to be like, okay, well, what are the issues that we want to design out? How do we want how do we make this as easier and more understandable for the public?
How do we build in the kind of checks and balances and avoid kind of creating either.
How do we build in the kind of checks and balances and avoid kind of creating either.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
As we've already discussed. They can't make decisions rightly on strategic planning, strategic transport. You need the overlay in the same way as you get the overlay in London. You can't have those decisions made at the borough level. They're just, you know, they're strategic in nature, not not. individual decisions. So that model two tier MSA unitaries underneath makes perfect sense around our big urban areas. And this is contested. You identified this. Your various. witnesses will attest to that. I think there's an argument outside of the big urban areas too, which is what we made at the time to move towards a unitary system.
We recognise that that is. debated and people have different views, and I fully respect their views. Our view was that the rest of England essentially should be unitary, and then there should be a. question and a genuine question to which the answer might be no. Is is there any added value from. introducing a strategic. authority to those unitaries as collections? And the genuine answer could be yes, and the genuine answer should also be no, and we should have done it that way round. And I think the government at the time should have been super clear on that.
They weren't. They went through a different model. They've done it the other way round in some respects, tried to deploy MSAs everywhere and then figure out local government reorganisation. So I think there is a merit to that because otherwise we're now in a position where we have the Cornwall scenario, where we've unitary Cornwall to be quite a large. geographical borough, and now we're asking them also to create and be created as a strategic authority.
I think that's slightly.
We recognise that that is. debated and people have different views, and I fully respect their views. Our view was that the rest of England essentially should be unitary, and then there should be a. question and a genuine question to which the answer might be no. Is is there any added value from. introducing a strategic. authority to those unitaries as collections? And the genuine answer could be yes, and the genuine answer should also be no, and we should have done it that way round. And I think the government at the time should have been super clear on that.
They weren't. They went through a different model. They've done it the other way round in some respects, tried to deploy MSAs everywhere and then figure out local government reorganisation. So I think there is a merit to that because otherwise we're now in a position where we have the Cornwall scenario, where we've unitary Cornwall to be quite a large. geographical borough, and now we're asking them also to create and be created as a strategic authority.
I think that's slightly.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
If I can be honest with the the committee, I think that is looking for, you know, looking you have something in your hand and you're looking for the answer and the thing in your hand is no longer applicable. So I think there is a merit to doing that. But I accept that it's. contested and others have different .
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Lord Newby
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Lord Newby
Lord Newby, did you want to I was just I was just going to pick up the Cornwall point in a way, because Cornwall is going to be a unitary and a strategic authority. Yes. And that has one great. advantage of simplicity. Everybody knows in Cornwall who's going to be in charge. And the question I've asked in a previous meeting in some in some other.
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Lord Carrington of Fulham
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Lord Carrington of Fulham
A mayor imposed on top of me? Why would it need to be both? Why not make a decision that if you choose. And this is a choice, if you. Unitary Hampshire. For argument's sake, I'm not making the argument for that. If you unitary Hampshire, that's it. And then essentially it gets the responsibilities and capabilities, etc., etc., that the strategic authorities have. Why would you add an additional label, which is largely meaningless of, of introducing it, also calling it a strategic authority. I don't understand the logic of calling the same place with the same geography and the same institution.
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Lord Newby
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Lord Newby
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think one of the things that, you know, there's many things that are unique about Cornwall, but I think the kind of most obvious thing, and I sort of talk not as call cities, quite obviously, but in my previous time in central government, the kind of Cornwall has only one neighbour and there is quite a. historical and strong argument as to why combining Cornwall and Devon together may or may not be a. successful route, either. administratively or politically. I think when you get into other parts of the country you. So Hampshire is a really interesting example.
If you're in the north of Hampshire in terms of where your where your pulls are and, and where your links are, you know, the M3 is, is very important to you, the kind of you are on commuter lines into and out of London. You have a different. economy to coastal Hampshire, which is very much built around the two big cities of of the coast is would you want a single decision making that was had no sense of. How do you balance those trade offs across a Southampton and Portsmouth, a Gosport with a kind of Basingstoke?
I don't know, I think so, I think there is. I think there's a sort of. One of the challenges is the economic geography of the UK is different from the political geography of the .
If you're in the north of Hampshire in terms of where your where your pulls are and, and where your links are, you know, the M3 is, is very important to you, the kind of you are on commuter lines into and out of London. You have a different. economy to coastal Hampshire, which is very much built around the two big cities of of the coast is would you want a single decision making that was had no sense of. How do you balance those trade offs across a Southampton and Portsmouth, a Gosport with a kind of Basingstoke?
I don't know, I think so, I think there is. I think there's a sort of. One of the challenges is the economic geography of the UK is different from the political geography of the .
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Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
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Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
Yeah, we need to move forward. So Baroness Woolf yes. Thank you. I'd like to come at some of these issues that we've been talking about from a slightly different angle, which is to do with whether or not authorities have capacity. And at the beginning of this inquiry, we heard from George Osborne that this was something where when they first moved into into this idea of having mayors and strategic authorities, there was a sense that a place had to be able to do it, that it had the capacity and that that it earned it. Now, most.
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Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
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Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
The idea has been that tax revenue sharing powers would go not just to those who had earned them, but to any mayoral authority. And I'd actually like to give another very. specific example, which is, you know, chicken feed, as they say, in terms of budgets, but it's actually quite interesting, which is that quite recently, the DWP announced that it was going to fund apprenticeship. brokerages in all strategic.
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Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
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Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
Is very correct. I just shaking my head, shaking my head with disappointment. I have to say that I this is actually. It is really a remarkable. But be, I think, quite, quite. indicative of what may be happening in government, which is that whenever you dream something up, you give it to the mayors. Now, I doubt if the amount of money available from apprenticeship brokerage is going to shift the views of Cornwall or Hampshire. But it is a very. But it's . But it it it does. imply a sort of a default mechanism because it's not as though they are the the obvious or necessary place to give it to.
I'm sorry to get technical, but I think you have to get quite technical. We've already got 39 places which are. delivering local skills improvement plans. If you look at if you look at Germany, where they do it through the chambers of commerce, there are 79, 80. So this is not something this is not like, you know, planning rail networks. And so I suppose it's a it's a, it's a different question really.
Do you feel that what I call the Osborne approach, the sense that you should. demonstrate some capacity to do.
I'm sorry to get technical, but I think you have to get quite technical. We've already got 39 places which are. delivering local skills improvement plans. If you look at if you look at Germany, where they do it through the chambers of commerce, there are 79, 80. So this is not something this is not like, you know, planning rail networks. And so I suppose it's a it's a, it's a different question really.
Do you feel that what I call the Osborne approach, the sense that you should. demonstrate some capacity to do.
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Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
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Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
Do you have any and, you know, we've talked about here and there about what should be at the strategic authority level in places where there is a double layer, how do you decide whether it should go to the to the strategic authority or to the mayor personally, if you follow, and how do you decide that it shouldn't that a that a lower layer might be the the might be more appropriate. Maybe I should start with you since you said you also .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
And I say this as a unitary authority leader who isn't part of a strategic authority combined authority, whatever the phrase is, this week, I have absolute frustration. And that's a really good practical example of that. Now, Kent and Medway, the region, we have a local skills improvement plan, but we don't have any money necessarily in the same way that other colleagues. around England will be receiving. So I think there are there are real practical examples as to why we need that pace to continue. I think the point around the Elgar. point and the pause is right, but ultimately, in my view, we've got to get on with this because otherwise you will end up with places losing out.
And sometimes that will be, you know, we've ended up in a position, I think, where perhaps some people somewhere have a broad assumption about, say, the south east of England. I can tell you I represent one of the wards with the highest levels of deprivation in the country. They need all the support they can get from central, from local. government and from a combined authority, if we had one. So I, I guess part of this is around those. relationships because it will be appropriate, particularly where you've got unitary authority, single tier. authorities across England. Eventually some of those things will be better delivered directly by the.
And sometimes that will be, you know, we've ended up in a position, I think, where perhaps some people somewhere have a broad assumption about, say, the south east of England. I can tell you I represent one of the wards with the highest levels of deprivation in the country. They need all the support they can get from central, from local. government and from a combined authority, if we had one. So I, I guess part of this is around those. relationships because it will be appropriate, particularly where you've got unitary authority, single tier. authorities across England. Eventually some of those things will be better delivered directly by the.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
And I think that's the model which certainly the current government would want to see more of. And I think you see that even when there are political differences of council leader, I think we certainly I've seen that across the country. So, yes, of course, if money is coming down to strategic authorities, that's frustrating for us who are not in the room. But also it's about, I think, trying to. ensure that you don't have a one size fits all that a project of that. nature may well be far more suitable to perhaps even not go to all of the unitary.
authorities in a morality. It may well be focused. If you've got an area of.
authorities in a morality. It may well be focused. If you've got an area of.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
An area where there is huge challenges around the issue of not in education, employment and training, you'd want to focus it on their and ideally the mayor, whoever they are and the council leader, whoever they are, who will be on the strategic authority will be having that real time conversation. Some of this is about. personalities and people as well. As others have said throughout the session today, we can't ever forget that politicians are human beings too, and they have those human relationships. And actually, if you fall out with each other, you can't do that for .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
You'd want that strategic. Again, it doesn't if you've got eight unitary authorities in that strategic authority, it doesn't mean that you get exactly the same across all eight. It may well be that there's different, different focuses. If it's young people, if it's coastal communities, if it's rural.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The voluntary sector, for example. Yeah. So to add to, I certainly think the principle of go local and then aggregate up rather than go the other direction I think works. So two two sort of observations on your question. Firstly on the kind of should some places get access and other places not how do we avoid that being a kind of administrative gatekeeping? So we had a. conversation across the 12 cities in core cities when the previous chancellor announced in March a city investment funds, which were looking to draw in financial transactions to improve city density and bring in private finance, six of the 12 cities of core cities got access to those funding, the other six two in England and four outside of England didn't for administrative constitutional reasons rather than economic reasons, there was not an argument as to why Bristol or Nottingham were were less.
economically able to attract the type of investment that a Liverpool or Newcastle were. So I think the kind of avoiding situations where you're creating kind of. administrative gatekeeping, I think, should be a principle of design that we need to do, do better at . on the kind of the sort of there's a, there's a kind of chicken and egg dimension on the question of. capability and resourcing. So the stat that I keep coming back to in this is back in.
economically able to attract the type of investment that a Liverpool or Newcastle were. So I think the kind of avoiding situations where you're creating kind of. administrative gatekeeping, I think, should be a principle of design that we need to do, do better at . on the kind of the sort of there's a, there's a kind of chicken and egg dimension on the question of. capability and resourcing. So the stat that I keep coming back to in this is back in.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
We have roughly the same amount of public. administrators working now as we did in the 2010 levels. It went down. It's gone back up again. Back in 2010, it was roughly. 52% worked in central government and 48% worked in local government. The last time these stats were collected, it's two thirds work in central government and one third work in local government. So over this sort of time period where we've been doing.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
We've had a mass. centralization of staffing. And I think one of the most encouraging things that the new government has said is to think about. transferring the staff resource. Now, that isn't necessarily the individuals. Some of those people would be the right people, but actually the headcount, the budgets, the the kind of I think you kind of having a situation where you sit there going, but I'm not sure that place has quite got the capability to do this thing. It was like, no, because you haven't given them the people. And actually, I think there is a real incentive and a real.
imperative to, to make sure that we are building. institutions that have the capability, have the resourcing, have the. skills to be able to do the things that we're expecting of them and to kind of we need to front load that rather than wait to hand them the powers and then three .
imperative to, to make sure that we are building. institutions that have the capability, have the resourcing, have the. skills to be able to do the things that we're expecting of them and to kind of we need to front load that rather than wait to hand them the powers and then three .
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Lord Reid of Cardowan
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Lord Reid of Cardowan
The local. government people. Are they ready for. devolution of this nature and the effect it might have on them? Do they have the. capabilities and the. personnel and the. expertise to deal with what's required? And finally, is there not a grave. danger that some of that. expertise and. capability will be sucked into the tactical.
headquarters .
headquarters .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Look, I think that the big challenge as we speak today is lots of local government. hardworking local government. officers were making life plans that were now. changed because of the poor. So I think at the moment I can't speak to every single local government officer, but I know speaking directly to some in Medway and across our.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
They're feeling a bit bruised at the moment because of that. So I hope that the rapid review is and I think one of the other things that I would always say about local government officers is they are resilient. They are resilient without a fault. They were some of the driving force behind getting us through a global pandemic. They have dealt with the kind of wide ranging implications for on communities of the last ten years since the Brexit vote, and that's been different in different parts of the country.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And some will see this as an absolute opportunity. Some will say, actually, I'd really love to go and work in the mayor's office or in, you know, the strategic. authorities headquarters. They'll see it as an opportunity for others. They'll be incredibly proud of what they're doing today. And their biggest fear might be that actually, will I keep doing that in five years time, or will that role go somewhere else? And the vast, vast majority of cases that will be no. You'll continue to be in the role you're carrying out. And of course, I say the bigger driver for most local government offices and the capacity generally will be around that transition from two tiers to single tier.
That again, it's not it's it's really nuanced because in some, you know, if I talk about my region, we have two directors of public health. If the government's initial plans go ahead as they were, we'll have four directors of public health, but we'll have we'll go from 14 chief. executives to four. So so all of that in the mix. Again, it goes back to my point earlier on. We're trying to do some really huge things all at the same time. But I've got confidence in the local government workforce. They are some of the best in this country.
They are. resilient and they will you know, they they will deal with the challenges that are put in front of them. And absolutely some of this, some of them will absolutely see this as an opportunity to progress .
That again, it's not it's it's really nuanced because in some, you know, if I talk about my region, we have two directors of public health. If the government's initial plans go ahead as they were, we'll have four directors of public health, but we'll have we'll go from 14 chief. executives to four. So so all of that in the mix. Again, it goes back to my point earlier on. We're trying to do some really huge things all at the same time. But I've got confidence in the local government workforce. They are some of the best in this country.
They are. resilient and they will you know, they they will deal with the challenges that are put in front of them. And absolutely some of this, some of them will absolutely see this as an opportunity to progress .
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Lord Reid of Cardowan
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Lord Reid of Cardowan
Further, because there'll be new and different opportunities that aren't there now. Thank you. It doesn't. actually answer the question. I mean, I admire what you say about the infantry and they're always resilient and they're always can do. But the question is, is the. expertise and. capability that exists in local government. liable . , given the devolution.
plans to be sucked into? I mean, given the. statistics we heard earlier that, you know, the centre has been growing like topsy, whereas there's been a. reduction in the whole of the.
plans to be sucked into? I mean, given the. statistics we heard earlier that, you know, the centre has been growing like topsy, whereas there's been a. reduction in the whole of the.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Local. authorities vis a vis the others. I say one final point on this, because it is it's it's we have the workforce today. They're dealing with two tiers of local government. Lots of these things are not in place currently. The world will change over the next three, four, five years. We will shrink the number of councils. There will be less councils in England than there are today just because of the nature of.
So there will be some additional. capacity in the system. At the same.
So there will be some additional. capacity in the system. At the same.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Some new roles will be created in strategic authorities. Now, I couldn't tell you whether those numbers will match perfectly or not. Probably not, because that's life. But I suspect we'll see some capacity in the local government. family at the same time that more is needed at the strategic authority level. But but it won't be. It won't .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Be perfect because things are never perfect. So so the thing I would add is the kind of the wiring bit is really important. Like in many ways, the thing that we need to spend the most time doing is some proper. organisational design work, and to work out what capability we're talking about. Where does it need to sit? Do we have it? Does it exist in the system? If not, how are we going to build it? How are we going to recruit it? How are we going to train it? And I think that sort of that work is really.
essential to get this right, because I think the risk is without doing that work. collectively between local authorities, strategic authorities and central government, we will be in a situation where we are seeing staff leaving one authority to go and work, to leave, leave city council, to go and work in the combined authority for them. Quite beneficial because they've probably negotiated a decent pay premium in making that move.
essential to get this right, because I think the risk is without doing that work. collectively between local authorities, strategic authorities and central government, we will be in a situation where we are seeing staff leaving one authority to go and work, to leave, leave city council, to go and work in the combined authority for them. Quite beneficial because they've probably negotiated a decent pay premium in making that move.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
The state cabinet statement to look at all the different policy areas there, particularly in the public services space, particularly in the education space, you know, what structures need to be in place, what teams need to be in place to deliver this. And, and really think through that, that work. I think it's really important that we do it and do it clear headedly because otherwise we'll be in a situation where it will just be sort of. transferring chairs around. I think the other thing I would say in support of Councillor Maples, sort of there is a you know, there is a risk of focusing on the change rather than the stock in terms of when we talk about local government.
So if I think of my city.
So if I think of my city.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
We have tens of thousands of staff who work for eight English councils. We have sort of budget operating budgets in the billions still. Yes, things have been very challenging in local authorities and the direction of travel for local government over the last ten, 15 years has been doing more with less squeezed. But there is still a.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Of people with great capability. We had city leaders on Friday in Sheffield, in Gleadless Valley, just talking with the community, and it just staff who've worked for Sheffield City Council for years, who know that place, who know that patch. Even when some of the programs have stopped on regeneration and renewal, these people are still doing the work. They're still doing the engagement. So I think I think I wouldn't. underestimate there is still a.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
About public services and things, about more devolution powers, come, come down. I agree with that. I would only add two thoughts. It's just the logic of the of where we're going essentially. Imagine forward ten years and we've done some of what if, not all of what is in the rewiring, the the state document, which is expansive. Central government will be materially smaller. The DFT ought to be. materially smaller as a. department relative to what it is today. because much more of what the DFT currently does, which is essentially man mark every MSA in the country, every local government in the country, and basically everyone else will be materially smaller because that work will be done by the MSAs.
It won't need it to be done by DFT. And if the DFT is the same size in ten years time as it is today, and the MSAs have got all the transport. responsibilities that they are going to get, then we've definitely failed. We should be very clear about that. And that is that's across the board in terms of central government. departments should be really thinking. And they are I know they are thinking materially about literally the numbers of people who currently work for government and will need to either to move literally to move into MSAs or, you know, those posts will be redeployed.
And I think that's a systems approach that we should take rather than a local government MSAs approach. My other observation would be we have a bunch of.
It won't need it to be done by DFT. And if the DFT is the same size in ten years time as it is today, and the MSAs have got all the transport. responsibilities that they are going to get, then we've definitely failed. We should be very clear about that. And that is that's across the board in terms of central government. departments should be really thinking. And they are I know they are thinking materially about literally the numbers of people who currently work for government and will need to either to move literally to move into MSAs or, you know, those posts will be redeployed.
And I think that's a systems approach that we should take rather than a local government MSAs approach. My other observation would be we have a bunch of.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And how it's better. deployed into places to deliver what different places want. So there's capacity across the board in the system. It's not only in the. MSAs and in the local government, where you have to think about how you shuffle it around. There's a broader. question about how we. redeploy and. reuse the capacity that is. definitely within the system, but .
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16:56
Baroness Alexander of Cleveden
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Baroness Alexander of Cleveden
In England. And, you know, we approach this, as we've discussed today, against a backdrop of, you know, literally. generations of. politicians who wish they'd done more to fix the regional divides in the UK. Against the backdrop, as we've heard of asking Whitehall to pass power out. So the question is, what is the. measure on fiscal. devolution that you want to see in our. report that gives us, as a nation, the best. chance of. delivering on those regional divides and doing it in such a way that builds consensus, because political consensus across generations is going to matter.
What's the what's the one thing in fiscal devolution that helps. deliver .
What's the what's the one thing in fiscal devolution that helps. deliver .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Of the tax base stays local is generated and stays local. You want to get that towards. 10% and 15%. That would still leave us as an outlier, but nevertheless, it would be less of an unbelievable outlier than we currently are. And if we do some of what the government is proposing, plus do some of the things that we're proposing, you will get into that bracket. So think go from.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Ideally to 15. I would say we need to be. clarifying what fiscal devolution is. I think if you put ten of us in a room, you'll get 12 different answers. I would say. absolutely co-produce that with local government in particular. That's critically important. And I think also make sure that we don't forget around. modernising council tax, because I think for us, actually, that's a big chunk of .
fiscal devolution,
fiscal devolution,
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Thank you. I would say the budget next week is a stepping stone, not the answer. On fiscal devolution. I think some of the things we've talked about shares of income tax, business rates are positive moves forward. But I think there's a huge foot place where we can go further thinking about actual true evolution. You know, we haven't talked at all about the future of motoring taxes. That is something that at the moment, the kind of levies on people, both nationally and locally, are incredibly complicated, depending on where you're parking versus who you're registering your car with.
Actually, there are multiple different examples where we can think about where's the incidence of the tax? How do we avoid overtaxing? How do we avoid being in a situation where we're designing that sensibly? I think that is this is the thing that was most attractive in what Rachel Reeves said when she announced this was it's a road map. And I think the sense of a journey on this will not be answered by what we get next week. It will .
Actually, there are multiple different examples where we can think about where's the incidence of the tax? How do we avoid overtaxing? How do we avoid being in a situation where we're designing that sensibly? I think that is this is the thing that was most attractive in what Rachel Reeves said when she announced this was it's a road map. And I think the sense of a journey on this will not be answered by what we get next week. It will .
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