Public Accounts Committee
Monday 12th October 2026
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15:31
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Order, order! Welcome to the Public Accounts Committee on Monday the 12th of October 2026. Today marks the start of our farming week, where we are taking an unusual step of dedicating two separate evidence sessions to examine the resilience of UK's food supply to disruption, in order to highlight the significance of this issue. Disruptions to the food supply chain can have a significant impact on consumers, businesses and the government. Overall food availability has been maintained in the food UK supply chain during recent disruptions such as Covid 19, pandemic wars in Iran and Ukraine.
But the risks are increasing. So today's session is split between two panels, comprised of a cast of witnesses with a huge wealth of knowledge and experience working in this area. And then on Thursday, we will be hearing from senior government officials from the government's point of view on this issue this afternoon, we will be looking to hear from our witnesses on a variety of topics, including the government's ability to maintain our food supply, preparedness of the farming sector to major disruption, as well as the government's engagement with food retailers, manufacturers and farmers about food supply resilience.
So I'm now going to please do my usual and ask each of you to introduce yourselves very briefly and say what perhaps your history is on this subject. So starting on the left, Jim, would you like to introduce yourself, please?
But the risks are increasing. So today's session is split between two panels, comprised of a cast of witnesses with a huge wealth of knowledge and experience working in this area. And then on Thursday, we will be hearing from senior government officials from the government's point of view on this issue this afternoon, we will be looking to hear from our witnesses on a variety of topics, including the government's ability to maintain our food supply, preparedness of the farming sector to major disruption, as well as the government's engagement with food retailers, manufacturers and farmers about food supply resilience.
So I'm now going to please do my usual and ask each of you to introduce yourselves very briefly and say what perhaps your history is on this subject. So starting on the left, Jim, would you like to introduce yourself, please?
15:32
Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
15:33
15:33
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Know, I'm very grateful to be here. Chairman. My background, Agriculture College 1981, came out of their grain. Buyer wanted to get into farming, started farming in my own right in 1984, first harvest 85. And it sort of gone from there. And currently farm in the Cotswolds , 300 acres, 120 acres rented. And I'm next door to Mr. Clarkson, who you might also know in the Cotswolds.
15:33
15:35
15:35
Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
Well, thank you for the question, and thank you also for the excellent report from the Auditor General's team at the NEA, which I think sets a scene really well. Resilience is absolutely critical to retailers. Having a resilient supply chain is what we what we utterly require to be able to operate all around the UK. The vast majority of the food that we sell through retail is produced in the UK. There's too much of that that comes in as imports from overseas, and all of us as retailers have a priority to increase domestic production.
But clearly there are challenges for farmers also for manufacturers also for us. You know, we've been through a number of shocks through the years that the NEA report identifies very well from Covid, Ukraine, the Iran crisis this year, and the ensuing problems with fuel and fertiliser and diesel and so on. And I think what they show is that we have a remarkably resilient system, but that that system is, the NEA says, is reliant on the private sector to be able to co-ordinate itself and to be able to move at the right pace.
So we don't end up with, for example, a lack of availability in stores and empty shelves. That for us are a mark of serious failure. There are probably five groups of risks. I won't go into too much detail in this this answer, but climate, energy and water, cyber security regulation and government policy and the constant chopping and changing there and then the geopolitical and trade risks that we all face as well. But I think specifically, Mr.
Chairman, on your question about farmers, what's really abundantly clear to us is that farmers are struggling to get planning permission, struggling to be able to put, for example, above ground reservoirs, which would then be able to water field grade crops. And and every farmer I talk to says, we can't get the approvals from government quickly enough, or we're restricted from being able to put a reservoir in our in our land. At the same time, energy costs have gone up enormously.
And if you're in protected horticulture or in poultry, it's extremely difficult to fund those energy costs given where they are. Given that food is a critical national infrastructure industry, it is surprising that government has not taken any steps on energy to reduce costs for those particular industries, whereas it has for other industries around the place. So answering specifically on farmers, I think there are amongst the challenges for us as retailers, our tax cost has gone up by 20% in the last two years.
Since the 2024 budget, we now pay an effective tax rate of 73.5%. And the the the increase in costs is employment costs. It's business rates. It's the full range that come through the packaging costs as well. It's about £8 billion a year since the election. So if there's one thing that worries us about resilience, it's the huge costs that have been piled into the system since 2024. And to be fair, in the years before that as well. But it's been particularly pronounced recently, which limits our capacity to invest and the capacity of the system to be able to make money.
And ultimately, profit is a good thing. Profit in the food system is the only way we will create the investment and the conditions to grow and to change. Given all the circumstances that we face and those risks that we face. Thank you
But clearly there are challenges for farmers also for manufacturers also for us. You know, we've been through a number of shocks through the years that the NEA report identifies very well from Covid, Ukraine, the Iran crisis this year, and the ensuing problems with fuel and fertiliser and diesel and so on. And I think what they show is that we have a remarkably resilient system, but that that system is, the NEA says, is reliant on the private sector to be able to co-ordinate itself and to be able to move at the right pace.
So we don't end up with, for example, a lack of availability in stores and empty shelves. That for us are a mark of serious failure. There are probably five groups of risks. I won't go into too much detail in this this answer, but climate, energy and water, cyber security regulation and government policy and the constant chopping and changing there and then the geopolitical and trade risks that we all face as well. But I think specifically, Mr.
Chairman, on your question about farmers, what's really abundantly clear to us is that farmers are struggling to get planning permission, struggling to be able to put, for example, above ground reservoirs, which would then be able to water field grade crops. And and every farmer I talk to says, we can't get the approvals from government quickly enough, or we're restricted from being able to put a reservoir in our in our land. At the same time, energy costs have gone up enormously.
And if you're in protected horticulture or in poultry, it's extremely difficult to fund those energy costs given where they are. Given that food is a critical national infrastructure industry, it is surprising that government has not taken any steps on energy to reduce costs for those particular industries, whereas it has for other industries around the place. So answering specifically on farmers, I think there are amongst the challenges for us as retailers, our tax cost has gone up by 20% in the last two years.
Since the 2024 budget, we now pay an effective tax rate of 73.5%. And the the the increase in costs is employment costs. It's business rates. It's the full range that come through the packaging costs as well. It's about £8 billion a year since the election. So if there's one thing that worries us about resilience, it's the huge costs that have been piled into the system since 2024. And to be fair, in the years before that as well. But it's been particularly pronounced recently, which limits our capacity to invest and the capacity of the system to be able to make money.
And ultimately, profit is a good thing. Profit in the food system is the only way we will create the investment and the conditions to grow and to change. Given all the circumstances that we face and those risks that we face. Thank you
15:38
15:38
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
say that it's interesting, isn't it, because it is so variable that there is a. The definition of a farmer is from is a food producer. But you can go from a chicken farm to a pig farm to a Lakeland sheep farmer, Scottish farmer, or in my sector, arable farming mainly, and that is, you know, more concentrated in southern England and things. And we've all had certain struggles in different ways. But in particular, if you're asking me our ability to maintain our food supply while keeping food affordable, the challenge right now is, as an arable farmer, I've had four of the five worst harvests since 2020, and 2026 is the smallest harvest of all since records.
They started keeping records in 1984, actually, when I when I started. So. And the frustration from a farming point of view is the small harvest is all down to climate change or climate events as you term it. And we've had it from flooding to then not being able to establish a good crop and then get to harvest. And this year, for example, it was like someone pressed a switch in the end of June and it just went out.
And they had this you thought was going to be a really good harvest, and you put the combine in and it's not there. So the challenge at the moment for farming in my area is actually what on earth is happening? How can I, how can I still grow food? Do I have to grow earlier crops or something to take advantage of the climate change that we've got? And I ought to just mention here, the Scottish farms have done really well this year because they didn't suffer that sort of extreme climate, and they've had a good year.
And this is the only dilemma I have talking on farming. It does vary where you are growing food in the country.
They started keeping records in 1984, actually, when I when I started. So. And the frustration from a farming point of view is the small harvest is all down to climate change or climate events as you term it. And we've had it from flooding to then not being able to establish a good crop and then get to harvest. And this year, for example, it was like someone pressed a switch in the end of June and it just went out.
And they had this you thought was going to be a really good harvest, and you put the combine in and it's not there. So the challenge at the moment for farming in my area is actually what on earth is happening? How can I, how can I still grow food? Do I have to grow earlier crops or something to take advantage of the climate change that we've got? And I ought to just mention here, the Scottish farms have done really well this year because they didn't suffer that sort of extreme climate, and they've had a good year.
And this is the only dilemma I have talking on farming. It does vary where you are growing food in the country.
15:40
15:40
15:40
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Oh yeah. So from a I agree with a lot of what Jim has said around kind of some of the, the, the sector has been incredibly resilient over the last 6 or 7 years. It's been through some exceptional shocks. I guess for our sector, we are very reliant on farming. And, you know, they produce the ingredients that goes into our products. And we're a customer. You know, we're a massive customer for domestically produced agricultural production.
And I think having talked about those shocks that have played out over the last 7 or 8 years, my concern would be, would we manage them the same over the next 7 or 8 years? And, and I kind of see that resilience around domestic production.
And I think having talked about those shocks that have played out over the last 7 or 8 years, my concern would be, would we manage them the same over the next 7 or 8 years? And, and I kind of see that resilience around domestic production.
15:50
Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
Ten they said Defra told the. Now that it's less confident about the ability of businesses in the. What concerns me and I. And I think it was quite instructive that the. Now in paragraph. Food supply chain to withstand withstand shocks without government intervention over the next 5 to 10 years. Well, frankly, the last thing we need is government intervention anyway. But I ask myself why they need to say that.
And the answer is they have created that situation. So we watch them increase taxes on employment. There are now taxes about to come in on this UK carbon border adjustment mechanism, which is going to put another tax on fertiliser. The the net zero agenda means energy is more expensive than in any other country in the world. They basically are doing absolutely everything in their power to dissuade people.
To your point, Harry, from planting crops. Now, I'm fortunate that I don't have any debt. But like you, when you drill your crops and your nitrogen, you're paying £700 a tonne for your wheat seeds. Expensive. You are effectively drilling your grain into the ground, knowing you're going to make a loss, and you're effectively speculating on two things. Number one, that the price is going to go up. And number two, that we're not going to get a catastrophic harvest like like we did this year and last year and the year before.
So I think in an overcrowded island, personally, we should be prioritising growing crops and feeding ourselves. And we and we account for a relatively low percentage of our food. But, you know, with rewilding and all of the other sort of schemes, I've stopped development on grade one arable land in my constituency in Great Yarmouth recently. I think the government's doing absolutely everything it can to score an own goal, and then wondering why it is that farmers are going bust, why the supply chain is falling apart.
And the answer is they have created that situation. So we watch them increase taxes on employment. There are now taxes about to come in on this UK carbon border adjustment mechanism, which is going to put another tax on fertiliser. The the net zero agenda means energy is more expensive than in any other country in the world. They basically are doing absolutely everything in their power to dissuade people.
To your point, Harry, from planting crops. Now, I'm fortunate that I don't have any debt. But like you, when you drill your crops and your nitrogen, you're paying £700 a tonne for your wheat seeds. Expensive. You are effectively drilling your grain into the ground, knowing you're going to make a loss, and you're effectively speculating on two things. Number one, that the price is going to go up. And number two, that we're not going to get a catastrophic harvest like like we did this year and last year and the year before.
So I think in an overcrowded island, personally, we should be prioritising growing crops and feeding ourselves. And we and we account for a relatively low percentage of our food. But, you know, with rewilding and all of the other sort of schemes, I've stopped development on grade one arable land in my constituency in Great Yarmouth recently. I think the government's doing absolutely everything it can to score an own goal, and then wondering why it is that farmers are going bust, why the supply chain is falling apart.
15:52
15:52
15:52
15:52
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Thank you for that. Yes. It's it's farming is a long term strategy. When when you go into it and food production is at the heart of farming, that's that's what we're here for. That's what the land is there for. And you, we enjoy doing it, but it's the risk element that has been introduced. I've farmed for, what is it, 40 years, but it's only got a bit weird in the last 5 or 6 years it wasn't quite as bad.
You had the occasional shock, but something has happened and I just dragged this out with me. When I started as a grain buyer, there was something called intervention. An intervention was an EU scheme, and it put a minimum price on the price of grain. And if I look here in 1984, five in November, I would pay the farm £117, 82 delivered for wheat. So that's about £110 X farm, something like that.
If I put that into the Bank of England calculator, that puts the price of wheat today at 360 to £400 per tonne, depending on which calculator you're in. And we were around £180 mark. Since it's come more widespread, widespread, known that we've had a very bad harvest in Europe. It has actually moved to the right side over £200, but it's a long way adrift of where inflation should take us. And I think that's what the challenge is.
Why hasn't that grain price? It's a global price not moved up with just inflation. And we have normally supply and demand sorts this out. But when you've got grain traders in Chicago or something, setting the price in the UK with this little patch and we've suffered bad climate and you get a good harvest in the southern hemisphere or something. But we somehow I don't know what we do, but we need to protect the farmers when this situation occurs, when we have a really bad harvest.
Europe is wrestling with this as well because it can't afford the agricultural budget as well. The only answer I have is actually something that Jim said one of the chicken farms I supply, I was asking him how he's getting on with grain prices going up, does that affect you? He says, oh no. My price I get for my chicken is linked with the supplier to the grain price. So as the grain price goes up, I actually get more because they know I'm paying more for the grain.
I'm not suggesting we should get an intervention in a price or something, but quite a number of places. The food system is protected for these price shocks. We didn't know Putin was going to invade Ukraine, you know, and diesel prices going and what how how do you actually manage that as a government? I think is extremely hard, but it's the reality of what's actually happening in farming. Now the farmer is suffering these huge shocks, and he's got a contract to supply grain, and we've just got to get on with it.
And again, I'm coming back to the grain buyer. One of the things that I really annoys me about, if I can sell forward, if I wanted, I could today sell my 2027 harvest if I wanted, and I will receive a price and say, right, I can make a profit at that. But if I have another terrible harvest, like 25 and instead of having 500 tonnes, I've got 200 tonnes, I have to make up the difference.
As a farmer, that grain trader says, well, I want the other 300 tonnes and if I've had a really bad harvest, the price will be higher and it will cost me a lot of money. So it's it's not encouraging me to, to take advantage of a good price. So you wait until you harvest it and then you take your price then. And I it's just seems that is something the supply side could help farmers if we have these shocks from climate diesel fertiliser.
I've just I did actually work out. I have paid 34% more for my fertiliser this year than I did last year. And as Rupert Lowe was saying, I've bought it early because the government are introducing this carbon tax on it from the 1st of January. So I know it's going to go up after January, so I bought it early. That kills cash flow again. So I've paid everything up front. I haven't got I say I haven't got the answer, but there are these shocks.
How do we protect farmers? How do we keep them going through this rough time? Because we don't we can't say every summer is going to be like the one we just had. So you don't want to put someone in place that is just that's it. But I do think we need something when we've got these major shocks happening that aren't anything to do with farming. If we want, if we are going to get increasing concern about food security, because I'm not growing food in the high risk environment we've got at the moment, I'm going to minimise the amount of food I grow because I just can't afford it.
You had the occasional shock, but something has happened and I just dragged this out with me. When I started as a grain buyer, there was something called intervention. An intervention was an EU scheme, and it put a minimum price on the price of grain. And if I look here in 1984, five in November, I would pay the farm £117, 82 delivered for wheat. So that's about £110 X farm, something like that.
If I put that into the Bank of England calculator, that puts the price of wheat today at 360 to £400 per tonne, depending on which calculator you're in. And we were around £180 mark. Since it's come more widespread, widespread, known that we've had a very bad harvest in Europe. It has actually moved to the right side over £200, but it's a long way adrift of where inflation should take us. And I think that's what the challenge is.
Why hasn't that grain price? It's a global price not moved up with just inflation. And we have normally supply and demand sorts this out. But when you've got grain traders in Chicago or something, setting the price in the UK with this little patch and we've suffered bad climate and you get a good harvest in the southern hemisphere or something. But we somehow I don't know what we do, but we need to protect the farmers when this situation occurs, when we have a really bad harvest.
Europe is wrestling with this as well because it can't afford the agricultural budget as well. The only answer I have is actually something that Jim said one of the chicken farms I supply, I was asking him how he's getting on with grain prices going up, does that affect you? He says, oh no. My price I get for my chicken is linked with the supplier to the grain price. So as the grain price goes up, I actually get more because they know I'm paying more for the grain.
I'm not suggesting we should get an intervention in a price or something, but quite a number of places. The food system is protected for these price shocks. We didn't know Putin was going to invade Ukraine, you know, and diesel prices going and what how how do you actually manage that as a government? I think is extremely hard, but it's the reality of what's actually happening in farming. Now the farmer is suffering these huge shocks, and he's got a contract to supply grain, and we've just got to get on with it.
And again, I'm coming back to the grain buyer. One of the things that I really annoys me about, if I can sell forward, if I wanted, I could today sell my 2027 harvest if I wanted, and I will receive a price and say, right, I can make a profit at that. But if I have another terrible harvest, like 25 and instead of having 500 tonnes, I've got 200 tonnes, I have to make up the difference.
As a farmer, that grain trader says, well, I want the other 300 tonnes and if I've had a really bad harvest, the price will be higher and it will cost me a lot of money. So it's it's not encouraging me to, to take advantage of a good price. So you wait until you harvest it and then you take your price then. And I it's just seems that is something the supply side could help farmers if we have these shocks from climate diesel fertiliser.
I've just I did actually work out. I have paid 34% more for my fertiliser this year than I did last year. And as Rupert Lowe was saying, I've bought it early because the government are introducing this carbon tax on it from the 1st of January. So I know it's going to go up after January, so I bought it early. That kills cash flow again. So I've paid everything up front. I haven't got I say I haven't got the answer, but there are these shocks.
How do we protect farmers? How do we keep them going through this rough time? Because we don't we can't say every summer is going to be like the one we just had. So you don't want to put someone in place that is just that's it. But I do think we need something when we've got these major shocks happening that aren't anything to do with farming. If we want, if we are going to get increasing concern about food security, because I'm not growing food in the high risk environment we've got at the moment, I'm going to minimise the amount of food I grow because I just can't afford it.
15:57
15:57
Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
I did have a comment just in relation to the extra costs and to Defra's capability on that, if that's okay. Mr. chairman, Defra is an economic department , and Paul Kissack, the Permanent Secretary, has said this in the committee that it's an economic department. That's right. But I don't think it always behaves as an economic department or is viewed as such by other departments. And so when you do have a crisis or even when you don't, I'm not convinced that Defra is able to pull the levers across government for the food system in a way that a department such as the Treasury might be able to.
So there is something about how it goes about engaging across government that. £8 billion of extra costs annually, I mentioned about some of those come from the Treasury. Some of those come from DBT, some of them come from the Department for health. Some of them come from Defra itself. But even within the department, I'm not sure there's a view on cost overall. So when we say this is an extra 2 billion, the government's already whacking us with an extra six.
There isn't an ability to be able to arbitrate across government or to then prioritise what should happen and what the impact should be on the food system at different times. So very often it all comes in at once, as we've seen in the last two years, and that limits our ability as an industry across the board.
So there is something about how it goes about engaging across government that. £8 billion of extra costs annually, I mentioned about some of those come from the Treasury. Some of those come from DBT, some of them come from the Department for health. Some of them come from Defra itself. But even within the department, I'm not sure there's a view on cost overall. So when we say this is an extra 2 billion, the government's already whacking us with an extra six.
There isn't an ability to be able to arbitrate across government or to then prioritise what should happen and what the impact should be on the food system at different times. So very often it all comes in at once, as we've seen in the last two years, and that limits our ability as an industry across the board.
15:58
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah, I'll just very quickly add to that. I think there's kind of volatilities and costs that are out of government's control, wars, climate, you know, third countries putting tariffs on. Then there's things that are in control. So the cost of energy kind of regulatory regulations, such as the packaging regulations, which are kind of, again, they probably affect farmers less, but they hit the farmers customers, which means they're less able to invest in farming. So those things, and I think there's, there's a the external volatility, but there's a volatility in policy and the policy costs, which really do make business far more difficult.
And then I think all of that undermines the investment in the resilience.
And then I think all of that undermines the investment in the resilience.
15:59
15:59
Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
You mentioned planning on, you know, for solar panels. And, you know, planning is a major problem for farmers who want to diversify. But I mean, I guess my next major question is, I mean, the transition from EU subsidies to the sustainable farming incentive, which, as we know, has recently had this window that closed, which which I missed, which as did most farmers because they were drilling. I mean, Defra has been an absolute shambles in terms of administering grant payments.
They've been late. They've been a complete mess. I mean, really, it's led by somebody who effectively the Secretary of State for environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who has really very little knowledge of farming. He's not a farmer herself. I mean, do you really think that Defra is fit for purpose? And my question really is wouldn't, wouldn't wouldn't farmers be better with no government intervention at all, rather than all of this red tape which is effectively strangling the farming industry?
They've been late. They've been a complete mess. I mean, really, it's led by somebody who effectively the Secretary of State for environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who has really very little knowledge of farming. He's not a farmer herself. I mean, do you really think that Defra is fit for purpose? And my question really is wouldn't, wouldn't wouldn't farmers be better with no government intervention at all, rather than all of this red tape which is effectively strangling the farming industry?
16:00
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
We've seen what happens. The trouble is we are competing on a global stage, and an awful lot of the farmer we are competing against are also helped by governments, EU, America. And we're here. And you say, right, we'll go on the world market. Well, it's just shown in the last few years. We can't compete as growers in this crowded island on on wheat or growing grains. We were not there.
The thing that always gets me is the livestock sector. And that has had a big rise recently. People, the real protein has come back as an on trend thing. You know, the the vegan and the non-meat diets has didn't take off as they expected. Real meat is coming back. Real foods, pure foods, and the price of sheep and cattle has gone up recently. But that is much closer to the market.
The market for livestock is decided at local markets, the Skipton's, the Northampton market. It's not decided by this grain trader in Chicago who's just looking at trends and doesn't actually have a feel on the road. And it's just interesting. The livestock sector is doing okay at the moment.
The thing that always gets me is the livestock sector. And that has had a big rise recently. People, the real protein has come back as an on trend thing. You know, the the vegan and the non-meat diets has didn't take off as they expected. Real meat is coming back. Real foods, pure foods, and the price of sheep and cattle has gone up recently. But that is much closer to the market.
The market for livestock is decided at local markets, the Skipton's, the Northampton market. It's not decided by this grain trader in Chicago who's just looking at trends and doesn't actually have a feel on the road. And it's just interesting. The livestock sector is doing okay at the moment.
16:01
Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
It is, but we don't have to to your point, we don't have equivalence of quality. So we, you know, our welfare for our chickens or our our animals is much better than other peoples. So it's hardly surprising that we're undercut by certain export markets. I mean, the first thing government should do is create equivalence of quality. Otherwise you're not comparing like with like equivalent.
16:02
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
I would completely agree with that. And you know, we've seen that with eggs haven't we. We have a different standards. Livestock standards in this country are, I think second to none. We have the red tractor. We have all the linking back. So I think we're good at that. But I do think we're it's much more realistic market and it's easier control because it's all done locally. I think it's actually the processing.
The slaughterhouse side of it is getting tricky. But that's, that's another matter that that's the actual processing of the, the livestock will leave my farm and then actually get into the supermarket. There's quite a lot in between that, but genuinely that is a reasonably healthy sector, apart from it's slightly coming down the herd number because it's an awful lot of hours you have to dedicate. And trying to find good stockmen in this today is trickier because it's a 247 business looking after stock, and not everybody wants to.
Do that. Doesn't it? Yeah.
The slaughterhouse side of it is getting tricky. But that's, that's another matter that that's the actual processing of the, the livestock will leave my farm and then actually get into the supermarket. There's quite a lot in between that, but genuinely that is a reasonably healthy sector, apart from it's slightly coming down the herd number because it's an awful lot of hours you have to dedicate. And trying to find good stockmen in this today is trickier because it's a 247 business looking after stock, and not everybody wants to.
Do that. Doesn't it? Yeah.
16:03
Rachel Gilmour
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Rachel Gilmour
Thank you. I should say that as well as being the member of Parliament for Tiverton and Minehead, which is a very rural constituency with lots of wonderful farmers. I'm also co-chair of the farming Appg and quite reassured to hear a couple of things that you've said, not least because as co-chair of the Appg, we have just written to Defra to ask them to be more strategic and more cross-departmental in the way that they do approach matters.
And in my own right, I've written to the Nao asking them to look at Defra and make sure that food production and farming sits at the heart of their strategy, rather than on the peripheries. So I think in a way, you've answered my question, but I just been told I've got to ask it. I always do what I'm told, as everybody knows. So how prepared do you think the farming sector is for a major disruption, whether that be with fuel supplies, droughts, as we've seen over the summer, or indeed flooding as we are inevitably about to get this winter.
And Harry, you can go first.
And in my own right, I've written to the Nao asking them to look at Defra and make sure that food production and farming sits at the heart of their strategy, rather than on the peripheries. So I think in a way, you've answered my question, but I just been told I've got to ask it. I always do what I'm told, as everybody knows. So how prepared do you think the farming sector is for a major disruption, whether that be with fuel supplies, droughts, as we've seen over the summer, or indeed flooding as we are inevitably about to get this winter.
And Harry, you can go first.
16:04
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Well, I'm afraid I don't think we're prepared at all in my sector, in the arable side, we're not prepared. It's like I compare farms and friends who aren't farmers. It's like having a factory and you produce food, but you do it without a roof on your factory. And if if it suddenly rains at the wrong time or it doesn't rain or whatever, you're stuffed. You go through all the processes, you can do everything you can.
We've got the best equipment, we've done everything we can. But your output is determined by what happens with weather. And I just don't think people talk about reservoirs. There's no way you're going to create a reservoir and then spray your arable crops. The costs are huge. And the trouble is I'm I'm right up against it on cash flow. So I haven't actually got the money to invest to do it. It's a different matter when you're dealing with a pig farm, a poultry farm, a dairy, because that is a completely different business to the arable sector.
And they're the shocks they have to, from a livestock point of view, a welfare point of view. They do need to invest. They do need water. You know, I think water capture should just be everywhere on all farms. That sort of thing is where the grants system is in place and there is investment there. And but it should be more encouraged, should be we've got this climate change. What are we going to do about it? I think Defra should be on the front foot and leading because they, they, they're the ones who are handing out the money.
They want it spent. Right. And we want food security. So I think Defra just get on the front step.
We've got the best equipment, we've done everything we can. But your output is determined by what happens with weather. And I just don't think people talk about reservoirs. There's no way you're going to create a reservoir and then spray your arable crops. The costs are huge. And the trouble is I'm I'm right up against it on cash flow. So I haven't actually got the money to invest to do it. It's a different matter when you're dealing with a pig farm, a poultry farm, a dairy, because that is a completely different business to the arable sector.
And they're the shocks they have to, from a livestock point of view, a welfare point of view. They do need to invest. They do need water. You know, I think water capture should just be everywhere on all farms. That sort of thing is where the grants system is in place and there is investment there. And but it should be more encouraged, should be we've got this climate change. What are we going to do about it? I think Defra should be on the front foot and leading because they, they, they're the ones who are handing out the money.
They want it spent. Right. And we want food security. So I think Defra just get on the front step.
16:05
Rachel Gilmour
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Rachel Gilmour
Well, food security is national security. What I always say about my farmers who I love is that actually it is the farmers who are on the front line when it comes to climate change. My farmers could tell you what was going to happen this summer. They could have told you that a few years ago, and they've adapted as best they can in terms of the grasses that they grow and things like that. So what disruptions over the past few years do you think has had the biggest impact on farmers, and have they adjusted or have they not?
16:06
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Well, you've got the outside shocks, Putin again, and Ukraine. So that was sudden energy shock. The odd bit about that, the breadbasket was Ukraine and Russia. So that got closed. So we did see prices improve. And 22 was a good year. There's me saying there's four worst years since 2020, 2022. If he hadn't sold the grain was a very good year. But we're living off that.
I don't I don't know what what they can do in my sector beyond what they're doing. Farmers know it. But what I'm doing is de-risking, looking at SFI, what I can do with that to boost fertility on the of the soil and things to build up water retention and so on. But it's such a long term, it doesn't cure when you get a sudden, you know, it just doesn't work. Farming to the sudden shocks for food security, I.
That's why we rely on imports at those moments. The thing is, this time we also had Europe having a really bad harvest. So it wasn't easy at all. And we've had the vegetable shocks when Morocco gets sudden storm as well. We are very exposed, I feel, to food security at the moment.
I don't I don't know what what they can do in my sector beyond what they're doing. Farmers know it. But what I'm doing is de-risking, looking at SFI, what I can do with that to boost fertility on the of the soil and things to build up water retention and so on. But it's such a long term, it doesn't cure when you get a sudden, you know, it just doesn't work. Farming to the sudden shocks for food security, I.
That's why we rely on imports at those moments. The thing is, this time we also had Europe having a really bad harvest. So it wasn't easy at all. And we've had the vegetable shocks when Morocco gets sudden storm as well. We are very exposed, I feel, to food security at the moment.
16:07
16:07
16:07
16:07
Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
I'd like, I'd like to talk a little bit, if we may, about international comparisons and with what you feel about what we can learn from other countries, about how they are approaching food supply resilience in terms of working with manufacturers and retailers. Very happy to to start on this one. I think most of Western Europe is in a similar place to us. So there's not a standout economy for me that is doing particularly well. I think Professor Lang, you're seeing later, has done quite a lot of research into this and will be very well placed to answer the question.
What I'd say is what the characteristics across those that are more resilient are, where they've planned together. So government and industry working together to horizon scan and to anticipate what might happen further down the line. Sometimes, like with Covid and Ukraine and Iran, that's extremely difficult to do, but it's easier to do when you have, for example, a trade change such as Brexit. You can anticipate in advance and change your purchasing and adapt your supply chains and so on.
The other part I'd mentioned is about local resilience and household resilience. The Cabinet Office is is rightly trying to help citizens prepare in case there is any significant shock going forward. But what I think we've seen through the work they've been talking about through the summer in the media and so on, is that really not that many people in Britain are prepared with water or tinned food for something that could go significantly wrong? So working at the local level with retailers to identify what could happen in the event of flooding or in the event of terrible weather in a particular region, but also working with households, I think will help boost our national resilience quite significantly.
If everyone remembers the trauma at the beginning of Covid. I think with supermarkets, you know, we kind of stepped up to meet that challenge and very much did. There was virtually no supply problem. There were perceptions of supply problems with eggs and toilet roll, but virtually no supply problem. And that's because the industry is resilient and adaptable without support from government. But I think the nature of the shocks that we're facing in the coming years, as we've seen in the last couple of years, mean that we've just got to all work together more closely to anticipate what's coming and build up supply.
Okay. That's really helpful. Thank you. Do either of the rest of the panel have anything they'd like to say on that?
What I'd say is what the characteristics across those that are more resilient are, where they've planned together. So government and industry working together to horizon scan and to anticipate what might happen further down the line. Sometimes, like with Covid and Ukraine and Iran, that's extremely difficult to do, but it's easier to do when you have, for example, a trade change such as Brexit. You can anticipate in advance and change your purchasing and adapt your supply chains and so on.
The other part I'd mentioned is about local resilience and household resilience. The Cabinet Office is is rightly trying to help citizens prepare in case there is any significant shock going forward. But what I think we've seen through the work they've been talking about through the summer in the media and so on, is that really not that many people in Britain are prepared with water or tinned food for something that could go significantly wrong? So working at the local level with retailers to identify what could happen in the event of flooding or in the event of terrible weather in a particular region, but also working with households, I think will help boost our national resilience quite significantly.
If everyone remembers the trauma at the beginning of Covid. I think with supermarkets, you know, we kind of stepped up to meet that challenge and very much did. There was virtually no supply problem. There were perceptions of supply problems with eggs and toilet roll, but virtually no supply problem. And that's because the industry is resilient and adaptable without support from government. But I think the nature of the shocks that we're facing in the coming years, as we've seen in the last couple of years, mean that we've just got to all work together more closely to anticipate what's coming and build up supply.
Okay. That's really helpful. Thank you. Do either of the rest of the panel have anything they'd like to say on that?
16:10
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I'd probably just add to that in terms of I mean, the Nao report referenced some of some of the activities in other countries. Probably worth looking at that and seeing what we can copy in terms of sort of critical infrastructure mapping, scenario planning around particular things that could play out and more government industry collaboration. I think in our experience, government have tended to engage us when a crisis starts, and actually there should be more work about preparing for future crises.
I mean, to be fair to Defra, I think they've started doing that. And there was a food preparedness meeting last week, which I attended, and that was bringing together business and government and, and kind of third sector organisations to kind of do some scenario planning. So I think they're taking that seriously. The permanent secretary was involved in the meeting. So I can see that that has gone up a much higher in terms of their priorities. So that's very welcome.
But I'd probably add that that is that is dealing with shocks. And I think what you need to also think about is the longer term resilience of the system.
I mean, to be fair to Defra, I think they've started doing that. And there was a food preparedness meeting last week, which I attended, and that was bringing together business and government and, and kind of third sector organisations to kind of do some scenario planning. So I think they're taking that seriously. The permanent secretary was involved in the meeting. So I can see that that has gone up a much higher in terms of their priorities. So that's very welcome.
But I'd probably add that that is that is dealing with shocks. And I think what you need to also think about is the longer term resilience of the system.
16:11
Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
Yes. I mean, that makes a high degree of sense, doesn't it really? I wonder, do you look at other sectors like energy and with envious eyes, thinking that the government is so much better at engaging with it? And if so, you know, what could it do? Two things I'd say one is about the industrial strategy. There are industries and the industrial strategy that are all hugely important that get benefits in, for example, the British Industrial Competitiveness Scheme to support their energy use.
The ceramics sector, for example. However, a critical national infrastructure sector such as food gets none of that support at all , and the outcome is less investment and higher prices for consumers. Now that's a choice. Government can keep making that choice if it wants and expect more of the same, or it could provide more support, and that would be particularly helpful. So given we're a critical national infrastructure sector, prioritise it through that. The other question I think, is, has the Department done enough thinking about what would happen, for example, if there were a nationwide shortage of diesel or of unleaded fuel, who gets priority? We saw that over a couple of years ago.
Defra rightly identified who did get priority and made a decent list in order, but I'm not convinced that we have that on, for example, diesel or on major energy shortages. If there were a cyber attack on the national grid, for example. So they need to prioritise a bit more to make sure we are reflected and respected as part of the the crucial industries this country absolutely relies on. Brilliant. Thank you very much indeed.
The ceramics sector, for example. However, a critical national infrastructure sector such as food gets none of that support at all , and the outcome is less investment and higher prices for consumers. Now that's a choice. Government can keep making that choice if it wants and expect more of the same, or it could provide more support, and that would be particularly helpful. So given we're a critical national infrastructure sector, prioritise it through that. The other question I think, is, has the Department done enough thinking about what would happen, for example, if there were a nationwide shortage of diesel or of unleaded fuel, who gets priority? We saw that over a couple of years ago.
Defra rightly identified who did get priority and made a decent list in order, but I'm not convinced that we have that on, for example, diesel or on major energy shortages. If there were a cyber attack on the national grid, for example. So they need to prioritise a bit more to make sure we are reflected and respected as part of the the crucial industries this country absolutely relies on. Brilliant. Thank you very much indeed.
16:12
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
And the only bit I'd add the two guys beside me are much more expert in this side, but I think it's worth just highlighting that devolution means the Scottish farmer has a very different scenario than the English farmer, and this I find strange. Wales are part just for the moment, but Scottish farmers still get the basic farm payment. They still get a payment per acre, so they are insulated when they have a bad harvest. When the.
The English farmer is on his own. If he hasn't, I'm sure we'll come on to SFI and what happened and trying to apply for it. But if you're not on the SFI and you're not receiving the. The single farm payment. No, no. Farmers in England are anymore. You are very exposed to the world price and catastrophe. The Scottish farm is insulated because he's getting his payment. I find it bizarre that as a country, we're not all joined up and, you know, have the same support.
And Defra is only actually in England.
The English farmer is on his own. If he hasn't, I'm sure we'll come on to SFI and what happened and trying to apply for it. But if you're not on the SFI and you're not receiving the. The single farm payment. No, no. Farmers in England are anymore. You are very exposed to the world price and catastrophe. The Scottish farm is insulated because he's getting his payment. I find it bizarre that as a country, we're not all joined up and, you know, have the same support.
And Defra is only actually in England.
16:13
16:13
16:14
Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
It's a very good question. I think what we what we face is a lot of negotiations with individual suppliers, and the retail tries to be as fair and equitable as it possibly can, take into account the needs of different suppliers as well. But then there are also areas where there are collectively agreed prices, which kind of scales up the impact for for farmers and for farms. There is a market forces question about how the industry changes over time to meet the fact that it's it's it's buyers are, you know, much bigger entities.
But ultimately, what retailers are trying to do is get the best price for customers at the end of the day. And part of that is to protect the viability of farming businesses and manufacturing businesses as well. So it's in our interests that we have a really healthy, vibrant farming sector. The market there, I think, would sort itself out into a different shape if that's where it needs to go.
But ultimately, what retailers are trying to do is get the best price for customers at the end of the day. And part of that is to protect the viability of farming businesses and manufacturing businesses as well. So it's in our interests that we have a really healthy, vibrant farming sector. The market there, I think, would sort itself out into a different shape if that's where it needs to go.
16:15
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
It's quite obvious looking at the advertising that some of your members want to support British farmers, others want to buy it as cheaply as they can around the world. So how do we get all of your members actually wanting to support their own domestic agriculture? Because that is in the long term, in the interest of food supply resilience.
16:15
Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
I wouldn't agree with the characterization. I think all of the 12 major supermarkets, including the online and frozen parts of that, will prioritise British farming. All of them talk about it. All of them have long term relationships with British farmers and and are working more and more closely with them. And as part of our increased focus on resilience, we're trying to increase that domestic production as well. But to be resilient, you also have to have a diverse supply chain to make sure that you don't end up with those empty shelves that are that hallmark of failure for a supermarket.
So we'll diversify as much as we can. But I mentioned Spain and North Africa and the weather issues that they've had in the last couple of years. If we as citizens want to go into a supermarket in December and get fresh fruit and vegetables that are not grown here, then we have to accept that they will come from overseas, and that that may very well come with a premium and prices will be higher. But we do have an expectation, I think, as citizens, that we will have that full choice throughout the year.
So that's why supermarkets will be a be as various as possible in the supply chain. But also I'd say that all 12 supermarkets are really clearly focused on supporting British farmers. And I think that's changed in the last few years. I think that's grown. And the importance of it has grown to them as well. And we'll see that. I think as domestic, the domestically produced part of our food chain increases as time goes on.
So we'll diversify as much as we can. But I mentioned Spain and North Africa and the weather issues that they've had in the last couple of years. If we as citizens want to go into a supermarket in December and get fresh fruit and vegetables that are not grown here, then we have to accept that they will come from overseas, and that that may very well come with a premium and prices will be higher. But we do have an expectation, I think, as citizens, that we will have that full choice throughout the year.
So that's why supermarkets will be a be as various as possible in the supply chain. But also I'd say that all 12 supermarkets are really clearly focused on supporting British farmers. And I think that's changed in the last few years. I think that's grown. And the importance of it has grown to them as well. And we'll see that. I think as domestic, the domestically produced part of our food chain increases as time goes on.
16:16
16:16
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. So three quick points. Many of our members work really closely with British farmers. They have long term contracts. They've had the same farm supplying them for decades. And the farmers will get a premium. And they'll work collectively to kind of ensure you get more sustainable farming. So you've got some really strong relationships in the sector. I think it's what we want is more domestic production because it's economical and it's the right business decision.
And I think some of the things we've talked about, about resilience and investment will drive that. And it's in our members interest and the industry's interests to have a resilient supply chain. And that is, you know, the last 4 or 5 years has really shown the consequences of not having a resilient supply chain. But that also means being able to source from overseas. And I think supply chain is most resilient when it's got multiple sources of supply.
So we I think there's a scenario where you have more domestic production because people are prepared to invest and it's the right business decision and there's a market for it. And I think that that is that is a very good outcome at the moment. I think we've all touched on it. The business environment , on top of the kind of climate and the geopolitics is making that very hard.
And I think some of the things we've talked about, about resilience and investment will drive that. And it's in our members interest and the industry's interests to have a resilient supply chain. And that is, you know, the last 4 or 5 years has really shown the consequences of not having a resilient supply chain. But that also means being able to source from overseas. And I think supply chain is most resilient when it's got multiple sources of supply.
So we I think there's a scenario where you have more domestic production because people are prepared to invest and it's the right business decision and there's a market for it. And I think that that is that is a very good outcome at the moment. I think we've all touched on it. The business environment , on top of the kind of climate and the geopolitics is making that very hard.
16:18
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
It's hard to say because you're not selling direct to the supermarket, and they're dealing in a volume that no one farmer can supply. And I think we've also got this problem in the UK that we we unfortunately consume a huge amount of processed food, and that processed food hides the source of the food because it's just a price commodity. And I think they do sell some supermarkets, extremely good British produce and it is a sale to a certain of their customers.
But there's an awful lot of customers driven on price, and I'm not sure if they are loyal. And the supermarket is about profit and if they're buying it cheaper, I, I would question how much they support British farmers. Some do, but it's it's not universal. And I think it's interesting. My, my dear neighbour, Mr. Clarkson, he only supplies British food in his shops and his restaurant. And it's just interesting.
He's struggled to get mustard or coffee. You can't have a coffee at Clarkson's Farm. There are some things we just can't produce in this country, so we're always. Supermarkets will provide food from everywhere in the world. We. British farmers can't supply it, but I wish. I wish they would support the British sector as much as they can, particularly on milk and things. But I think it's a struggle because they're they're under trying to make profit as well.
But there's an awful lot of customers driven on price, and I'm not sure if they are loyal. And the supermarket is about profit and if they're buying it cheaper, I, I would question how much they support British farmers. Some do, but it's it's not universal. And I think it's interesting. My, my dear neighbour, Mr. Clarkson, he only supplies British food in his shops and his restaurant. And it's just interesting.
He's struggled to get mustard or coffee. You can't have a coffee at Clarkson's Farm. There are some things we just can't produce in this country, so we're always. Supermarkets will provide food from everywhere in the world. We. British farmers can't supply it, but I wish. I wish they would support the British sector as much as they can, particularly on milk and things. But I think it's a struggle because they're they're under trying to make profit as well.
16:19
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Well, maybe come back to this, the diversity of processing and whether it's in this country or not, of course, a lot of our coffee that we buy in our supermarkets is roasted in Germany, not in the UK yet we drink huge quantities of it. So maybe we'll come on to the supply chain. But my deputy, my excellent deputy Clive Betts, wanted to have a comment.
16:20
16:20
Clive Betts
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Clive Betts
I interesting what Harry just said because I think that's right. You know, a lot of customers are going to look how much things cost in the current climate. Of course they are. But it would help if supermarkets were more upfront about where things came from, wouldn't it? I mean, yes, often there is. This is British and you see that, but it's very often unclear when things don't go to this country and where they do come from.
16:20
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Well, this has been a farmer annoyance for some time because it's where it's packaged is defines the country of origin, not actually where it was grown. And that is something that farmers have sort of really challenged in the past, because how can something that's just packaged in this country, but actually grown outside the country be classed as UK grown? That's just not right. But I think that is changing. I think people are aware of this, but I don't think the public are aware of it.
So yeah, that's that's what I'd like to see change. So then it was more emphasis on British food. And it really was British food, because I have to go through the audit of Red tractor and things. All British farmers do that. So it's traceability that all came about because of, you know, the salmonella and etc. they wanted traceability and mad cow disease. So now we have this in, we ought to have this all in place, this traceability, we should maximize it and show the quality of British food over a, you know, other countries that don't have any of that traceability.
So yeah, that's that's what I'd like to see change. So then it was more emphasis on British food. And it really was British food, because I have to go through the audit of Red tractor and things. All British farmers do that. So it's traceability that all came about because of, you know, the salmonella and etc. they wanted traceability and mad cow disease. So now we have this in, we ought to have this all in place, this traceability, we should maximize it and show the quality of British food over a, you know, other countries that don't have any of that traceability.
16:21
16:21
16:21
16:21
Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
Yes. And and part of that is about the assets that we have in the industry that goes from ports to the 131 food supply depots that are supplying the UK's food entirely to logistics hubs, to kind of everything throughout the the chain food manufacturing centers, for example, and the largest supermarkets. I'm not aware that any of these are protected assets and that in discussions about whether to be a crisis. And as to your colleague earlier, I'm not sure that there is a plan to make sure that those assets are registered and that are given the support that they need.
Our ask is that Defra steps up to work with Cabinet Office to make really clear what matters and what doesn't, and what support can be provided to give the department their credit. They have rightly stepped this up recently. They've got a very good team of officials looking at security and resilience, and hopefully that will head us in the right direction. But we're not there yet and not enough action has been taken.
Our ask is that Defra steps up to work with Cabinet Office to make really clear what matters and what doesn't, and what support can be provided to give the department their credit. They have rightly stepped this up recently. They've got a very good team of officials looking at security and resilience, and hopefully that will head us in the right direction. But we're not there yet and not enough action has been taken.
16:22
16:22
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So I think the things you so the food system is very big. It's very diverse. You don't need to capture all of it. I think what you need to look at is what are the critical bits of that? Can they if they're disrupted, how much impact does it have on food availability? How substitutable those elements are? You know, can someone else step into that production, whether a particular element falling over has a knock on impact on other bits, and also kind of just the scale of impact, whether on communities or geographic reach.
So if you, if you kind of look at those criteria, you can probably identify the key bits of the system that you need to kind of put on the database and monitor. And then you need to understand how resilient are those elements in particular types of shocks, like how easy is it for them to get fuel? How quickly can they get reconnected to the grid? Is their workforce able to travel into that premises or area to work? So it's kind of doing that sort of testing.
It's you wouldn't be able to do it on the whole system, but it's identifying the key nodes, which are critical to the functioning.
So if you, if you kind of look at those criteria, you can probably identify the key bits of the system that you need to kind of put on the database and monitor. And then you need to understand how resilient are those elements in particular types of shocks, like how easy is it for them to get fuel? How quickly can they get reconnected to the grid? Is their workforce able to travel into that premises or area to work? So it's kind of doing that sort of testing.
It's you wouldn't be able to do it on the whole system, but it's identifying the key nodes, which are critical to the functioning.
16:23
16:24
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
There's definitely an uptick. Like I said, there was a meeting last week, and I think that is the beginning of this work to really kind of look at the system. So I would take that as a real positive. I think previously that hasn't been done because the system has been seen as quite dispersed and large and kind of, you know, there's no single point of failure. I think with Energy Grid, it's probably different.
There are probably certain elements which could kind of knock out the grid. And I think that is probably that assumption needs to be tested.
There are probably certain elements which could kind of knock out the grid. And I think that is probably that assumption needs to be tested.
16:24
16:24
Matt Turmaine
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Matt Turmaine
I would , I would answer no. And I'll give you an example. During the Iran crisis, at the very beginning, we could all see what was happening to petrol prices in particular , and diesel prices, but also then we could forecast what would happen to fertiliser and so on. And the impact then on food price inflation and Food and Drink Federation and IGD came out with a very high number for food price inflation that hasn't yet come to pass, but we would expect a very significant number to unwind towards the middle of next year or so.
We pulled together at the BRC, a group of retailers. We invited Defra officials to come and join that group. We put the issues on the table and all of the actions that government could take to help support our industry. I don't think any of those actions were taken, and week after week we'd have meetings with officials that we convened where we'd go through that list of actions, and there would be no progress against any of them. If government was prepared to mitigate this shock, it would have been ready to a convene that itself.
But B then to take the actions that were necessary to protect consumers. . Is
We pulled together at the BRC, a group of retailers. We invited Defra officials to come and join that group. We put the issues on the table and all of the actions that government could take to help support our industry. I don't think any of those actions were taken, and week after week we'd have meetings with officials that we convened where we'd go through that list of actions, and there would be no progress against any of them. If government was prepared to mitigate this shock, it would have been ready to a convene that itself.
But B then to take the actions that were necessary to protect consumers. . Is
16:25
16:25
16:25
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I would I would probably kind of add to Jim's. Similarly, we had conversations around some of the things to take price, you know, take the pressure off prices. And we probably the only thing we've seen implemented was some tariff reductions. But those tariff reductions were often some of them were on things that are competing with domestic production. So the overall impact on inflation was probably limited. But there was also a negative impact on businesses who produce food here.
16:26
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
I think this CNI mapping and registering is very important. And just to get it on the record, the NFU have produced a very useful list of which they say they should include abattoirs rendering, dairy processing, milk collection, hatcheries, feed mills, fertiliser, carbon dioxide supply, veterinary laboratories, medicine, coleslaw, wholesale markets, horticultural pack houses, key ports and distribution routes. I think that is actually something they should be clearly mapping. I see lots of nods from our witnesses, so obviously you all agree.
Rachel, please.
Rachel, please.
16:26
Rachel Gilmour
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Rachel Gilmour
So Rupert has briefly touched on this, and it's certainly something that's been an issue for myself and I know other members of the committee. So the government's land use framework. It set out its approach to balancing the different demands on our land. So how effective do you think it is or it might be in terms of food production, so that getting the balance right between food production and other land uses.
16:27
Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
I'm not I think the market will decide they can produce a report like that, but I really think the market will decide. And what is land use for? It's for the community. You know, we want to be producing whatever the community needs. And this debate, like on solar farms, I find a really interesting one because you the predictors I've seen by 2035, it could take 70,000 hectares out of production.
At the moment, the 6.1 million hectares in production. So it's not a massive impact. People feel very strongly about it because it's the wrong use of land. I would challenge it and say, well, it's we need power. We're going to increasingly use power. It's not a bad use of land. And, and it's a 25 year. It's not forever. You know, I'm wondering, should I be planting trees because we're going really serious on net zero.
Perhaps it's a more environmentally friendly way of building houses. In 100 years time, we might all be using wood. So trying to do a framework, a government trying to do framework. I think the market decides on this one. So I'm, I'm not one that says that's the right thing for government to decide. We don't know. And
At the moment, the 6.1 million hectares in production. So it's not a massive impact. People feel very strongly about it because it's the wrong use of land. I would challenge it and say, well, it's we need power. We're going to increasingly use power. It's not a bad use of land. And, and it's a 25 year. It's not forever. You know, I'm wondering, should I be planting trees because we're going really serious on net zero.
Perhaps it's a more environmentally friendly way of building houses. In 100 years time, we might all be using wood. So trying to do a framework, a government trying to do framework. I think the market decides on this one. So I'm, I'm not one that says that's the right thing for government to decide. We don't know. And
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Rachel Gilmour
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Rachel Gilmour
I don't mind solar farms going on very poor grade agricultural land. What I do object to is solar farms going on very good agricultural land. And I know enough about agriculture to walk a field and say to that farmer, you are able to grow this because this is premium land. And yet the solar investor has had a surveyor go in there who's his surveyor. That said, actually it's really poor agriculture, agricultural lands.
And I think there has to be a mechanism where we can identify independently what land ought to be used for horticulture and agriculture and what land we could free up to put, for example, those ghastly solar farms on, if you have to.
And I think there has to be a mechanism where we can identify independently what land ought to be used for horticulture and agriculture and what land we could free up to put, for example, those ghastly solar farms on, if you have to.
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Chris Kane
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Chris Kane
Yeah, I have I again, I should declare an interest. I did look at putting solar on the farm in about 20 1112, and it was very interesting because it's all about the grid connection that drives where the solar goes and you're seeing it going on very good land in Lincolnshire, purely because we had coal generation of electricity in that area. So there's very easy grid connection. And if you do put it in those areas of poor ground, well, quite often they're not very populated as we see in Scotland.
So it doesn't actually get the climate. It's it's a it's another debate. We're going off a slight tangent, but I think land should be used in a way that is what the community needs. It's it's either supplying food. It can be landscaping tourist areas. It could be solar because we're going to need more power. So I have a more open
So it doesn't actually get the climate. It's it's a it's another debate. We're going off a slight tangent, but I think land should be used in a way that is what the community needs. It's it's either supplying food. It can be landscaping tourist areas. It could be solar because we're going to need more power. So I have a more open
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Rehabilitation. Yes. We don't. Just to challenge what you've just said a bit. Yes. Estimate the loss of land farmed averaged 26,000 hectares a year since 2000. That's more than 500,000 hectares in two decades. That's quite a high percentage of what , your 6.1 million hectares in this country, I think. Do you not think we do need to just be . Watching
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
carefully how much land we're taking out of farmed production? Okay, I'll take that challenge on board because you're including development and roads and. infrastructure as well. I was just challenging the solar. That seems to be an emotional subject, and it's not actually taking that much ground out. And I think also if they do solar, I think they ought to do wind as well because it's all about the grid connection.
So you ought to maximise if you're going to do it, maximise it, that grid connection. But I agree, we are a very small island, but population growth has. demanded a lot of that land use that is almost inevitable at the at the. population hour. Yeah. We need to be growing our food. But again, I come back as a farmer, I've got a cash flow challenge because I can't grow it at current prices. So it's not as easy as all that.
You know, if you had all that land and we all planted it crops and the price would go down, and then . What would
So you ought to maximise if you're going to do it, maximise it, that grid connection. But I agree, we are a very small island, but population growth has. demanded a lot of that land use that is almost inevitable at the at the. population hour. Yeah. We need to be growing our food. But again, I come back as a farmer, I've got a cash flow challenge because I can't grow it at current prices. So it's not as easy as all that.
You know, if you had all that land and we all planted it crops and the price would go down, and then . What would
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Lloyd Hatton
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Lloyd Hatton
in the event of disruption to to supply food. I think it's a mixed bag. I think there are there are some that are very good, but they're pretty young and nascent in their development. And each local resilience forum seems to take a different shape and a different format and different priorities and resources behind it. The U.S. international examples before, and I think some of the better international examples are where those local resilience forums are really well connected with directly with the people who are supplying and selling the food, understand what's what's available, what could happen in different environments, what.
exercise for, for different crises that could come up in that area so they can really test themselves. We're not seeing that on a widespread basis yet, but that's not . To say
exercise for, for different crises that could come up in that area so they can really test themselves. We're not seeing that on a widespread basis yet, but that's not . To say
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Okay. Thank you very much, Jim. I would like to ask you two questions. Really. And we haven't talked about processing at all today. But my example, picking up on what Harry said about coffee actually applies to a lot of other sectors. We're seeing a decline in slaughterhouses. We're seeing a lot more food being processed abroad than it ever used to be. Isn't this a real threat to our resilience in the future? If we got a worldwide drought or one of the other major risks, isn't .
It a
It a
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Lloyd Hatton
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Lloyd Hatton
don't have this processing capacity in this country? Yes, I think it is a risk. And I think that, you know, all parts of the supply chain need to make sure that we've got enough to be able to operate on our own, should we need to, and should we not be able to, to import from overseas. My experience of the of the food processing side is that actually quite a lot more of it is processed here than overseas, but there are components or ingredients that will come through by necessity from other countries , because we don't have them here.
Carbon dioxide is an interesting one because the UK doesn't really have a huge amount of capacity for homegrown cat. So if you're looking at abattoirs or at soft drinks from one end of the scale of importance to the other, do we have enough to be able to do either of those if we needed to? Probably not. So I think it's part of that mapping exercise that we do across critical national infrastructure. We should identify where we have weaknesses and where we don't.
And that should enable us enable us to plug the gap. There is a question about why you might process overseas and import to the UK. Sometimes that's just where the manufacturing happens to take place at the lowest cost. And sometimes that's where the. manufacturing happens because that's where the ingredients are. But very often this does come down to cost. So at all parts of the chain, we've got to make sure we're not piling too much cost to make it too expensive to do things here and creating the right incentives.
So we're growing food and we're processing food here because the incentives are right. And you can you can run a business effectively and profitably here. And I think that's been the economy wide challenge that we've faced. It's quite difficult to make a profit. And and that holds back . The the
Carbon dioxide is an interesting one because the UK doesn't really have a huge amount of capacity for homegrown cat. So if you're looking at abattoirs or at soft drinks from one end of the scale of importance to the other, do we have enough to be able to do either of those if we needed to? Probably not. So I think it's part of that mapping exercise that we do across critical national infrastructure. We should identify where we have weaknesses and where we don't.
And that should enable us enable us to plug the gap. There is a question about why you might process overseas and import to the UK. Sometimes that's just where the manufacturing happens to take place at the lowest cost. And sometimes that's where the. manufacturing happens because that's where the ingredients are. But very often this does come down to cost. So at all parts of the chain, we've got to make sure we're not piling too much cost to make it too expensive to do things here and creating the right incentives.
So we're growing food and we're processing food here because the incentives are right. And you can you can run a business effectively and profitably here. And I think that's been the economy wide challenge that we've faced. It's quite difficult to make a profit. And and that holds back . The the
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
whole food supply chain and its resilience. So part of the reason that food processors, particularly if they use a lot of energy, find it difficult to to exist here is that our energy prices are amongst the highest in the world, not exclusive to processing businesses. Lots of other industries use high energy processes. But is this a problem? Is it a problem? I mean, we're getting we've, you know, food processed, as I said, German coffee, Danish bacon, increasingly foods produced elsewhere.
France produces an awful lot of dairy food.
France produces an awful lot of dairy food.
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Lloyd Hatton
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Lloyd Hatton
Is this a really real problem? Shouldn't we be encouraging more of it in this country? We should. And energy costs are an enormous problem. We put out a report from the BRC last week that said that just in one year, retailers are spending. £440 million more just on electricity. Now those costs are passed on to customers at the end of the day in the form of higher.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
important that everyday economy gets the right support from central government. I'm sorry. I'm concentrating on the questions on Rachael will come in at the end on farming question. Just in time for food supply. I mean, we did see very quickly during the early weeks of the pandemic, shelves emptying and then panic buying starting. Is there more that we should be or could be doing to actually have a little bit more stock? I .
Know
Know
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Lloyd Hatton
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Lloyd Hatton
perception that there was going to be eggs are such a good example, said panic buying. Absolutely. The government calls euphemistically adaptive purchasing behavior. But, you know, if you if you go into a store and you see that the shelves are empty for the product that you want, you'll probably go to another store. It's the third most important thing to a consumer is availability. Number one is of course, price, but availability is just behind that.
So panic buying is quite easy to generate, particularly if you're telling people to buy a particular type of product, then people will go out and buy it. So for example, if the government were to say to you, go and buy X liters of water, would we run out of water? I don't know, but that is something that's worth testing and thinking about. Do we have the supply? Who's storing it and how can we make sure it's efficiently stored there as well? Just in time works.
It creates the cost. efficiencies that we need to be able to do to keep our grocery basket the lowest priced in Western Europe. It does work. There is an argument for just in case as well. I know supermarkets that I've spoken to have increased the amount that they have in stock, but would that be enough to meet a. significant national food emergency? I don't think it would.
And I think that's where all parts of the system have to come together and plan for what we would need and how much we would need. That's also a household resilience comes into it. If every household has three days worth of food and water, then that takes you quite a long . Way to
So panic buying is quite easy to generate, particularly if you're telling people to buy a particular type of product, then people will go out and buy it. So for example, if the government were to say to you, go and buy X liters of water, would we run out of water? I don't know, but that is something that's worth testing and thinking about. Do we have the supply? Who's storing it and how can we make sure it's efficiently stored there as well? Just in time works.
It creates the cost. efficiencies that we need to be able to do to keep our grocery basket the lowest priced in Western Europe. It does work. There is an argument for just in case as well. I know supermarkets that I've spoken to have increased the amount that they have in stock, but would that be enough to meet a. significant national food emergency? I don't think it would.
And I think that's where all parts of the system have to come together and plan for what we would need and how much we would need. That's also a household resilience comes into it. If every household has three days worth of food and water, then that takes you quite a long . Way to
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Lloyd Hatton
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Lloyd Hatton
Us on these food supply problems. I think so, yes. And I think that. citizens should be aware, just as they are in Sweden or in Spain or in other countries around Europe. They should be more aware of the the importance of having supply at home. It could be that your water is cut off and you can't get get it back up. It could be that there's a significant drought and you're using standpipes outside the street.
And, you know, water companies were talking about that only yesterday. Our customers are aware of what to do. I'm not sure they are. We definitely can educate more. But that's also the case for educating where your food is from, how you cook it, how you create a meal from scratch. Food really is important and it really is an economic driver and a driver of behaviours and health and everything else. We, I think we've all got to step up to try and .
Improve food
And, you know, water companies were talking about that only yesterday. Our customers are aware of what to do. I'm not sure they are. We definitely can educate more. But that's also the case for educating where your food is from, how you cook it, how you create a meal from scratch. Food really is important and it really is an economic driver and a driver of behaviours and health and everything else. We, I think we've all got to step up to try and .
Improve food
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Speaker 3
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Canning, heating, chilling. So if you're twice as expensive as somewhere else, you know, the investor may be headquartered somewhere else in another country. They're looking at Europe. The UK gets knocked off that list very quickly. So and like I've said before, that then has a knock on impact because that processing. moving the. ingredients they'll buy will not be British ingredients. They will be buying ingredients from.
So it has a knock on impact on supply chain. And I think what I would ask is often the talk about food security is focused on farming, which is obviously the crux of it. It really.
So it has a knock on impact on supply chain. And I think what I would ask is often the talk about food security is focused on farming, which is obviously the crux of it. It really.
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Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
Last word goes to or very, very quickly. I've got one for Bell because I saw you were involved in the Covid response. So the question I've got is, do you think it was government response or the private sector response? Because it seems to me that if we have a healthy private sector, you don't need government intervention. It can cope with, to your point, Jim, most of these issues. So in Covid, are there lessons to be learned? Does the state try and pin a .
Medal on
Medal on
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Speaker 3
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itself? Whereas actually it's the private sector that saves the day. I think the private sector was incredible in terms of if you had to, if you said to someone before Covid, you're going to shut down hospitality sector like no one would, the outcome you would have predicted would nowhere near have been as good as what played out. And that was the private sector. The role of government there, I think, was also important because it got out of the way where it needed to.
So things like suspending competition law, easements on driver hours, looking at labelling changes it. The, you know, it played a role around kind of loosening the rules. What I would suggest is for government, it should make sure it's got those levers in place, ready to respond straight away. The next time we get that sort of crisis to allow the private sector to kind of do that. I think where where there's a much more of a private.
sector government partnership is where you've got vulnerable communities, etc., where you need the government to intervene, to support private sector, to make sure that it's not just a market based mechanism. There's people, whether in old people's homes, etc., who are getting the food, who may be. financially disadvantaged, who are getting the food. So I think it's really food security. And resilience is about partnership. It needs government and. industry to work together, both in terms .
Of
So things like suspending competition law, easements on driver hours, looking at labelling changes it. The, you know, it played a role around kind of loosening the rules. What I would suggest is for government, it should make sure it's got those levers in place, ready to respond straight away. The next time we get that sort of crisis to allow the private sector to kind of do that. I think where where there's a much more of a private.
sector government partnership is where you've got vulnerable communities, etc., where you need the government to intervene, to support private sector, to make sure that it's not just a market based mechanism. There's people, whether in old people's homes, etc., who are getting the food, who may be. financially disadvantaged, who are getting the food. So I think it's really food security. And resilience is about partnership. It needs government and. industry to work together, both in terms .
Of
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And you are, you're just you're not even working to one year. You're working to a 5 or 6 year. You know, I always say I'm a custodian of the landscape. I'm not. actually in a business that will buy and sell and, and I am going off one, but it's just understand farming better is my principle one thing. But it was when the inheritance tax thing happened. I'm going to just bring that up.
It just it was an. illustration that, hang on a minute. Government doesn't understand how farming . works and farms don't. sell farms as, say, I'm a custodian. And I just looked at this and. 0.4 percent of land is sold a year. That means the average turnover of farm is around.
It just it was an. illustration that, hang on a minute. Government doesn't understand how farming . works and farms don't. sell farms as, say, I'm a custodian. And I just looked at this and. 0.4 percent of land is sold a year. That means the average turnover of farm is around.
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Speaker 1
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That's how long term it is. A house is generally traded about four nine years, something like that. If it's a flat or a main house. Farming is a very long term business. We are in the business of food production. We are not being encouraged to grow food at the moment. SFI is doing a lot for. environmental things. I'm very pleased with what I've seen on the farm. I've done some of those and I have seen an improvement in nature.
But this meeting is about food. security and the government has really got to look at it to encourage me to get back producing food again. And it's going to help, and I don't think it recognises. I'm extremely grateful you're having these meetings, because I do want it to move it right up the agenda because it's critical. And if we're going to get these events happening every other year, it's even more critical.
And these guys are super good at distribution as shown in Covid. I was. astonished how food didn't run out. And you know, that Moroccan thing didn't seem to make a difference. So we are good at some things, but the fundamental is growing food and the farmer is right at the core of it. And I want the farmer to.
But this meeting is about food. security and the government has really got to look at it to encourage me to get back producing food again. And it's going to help, and I don't think it recognises. I'm extremely grateful you're having these meetings, because I do want it to move it right up the agenda because it's critical. And if we're going to get these events happening every other year, it's even more critical.
And these guys are super good at distribution as shown in Covid. I was. astonished how food didn't run out. And you know, that Moroccan thing didn't seem to make a difference. So we are good at some things, but the fundamental is growing food and the farmer is right at the core of it. And I want the farmer to.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
us encourage us to grow food. That's my point. Yeah, that's a fantastic last word to finish our session on. Can I thank you and your fellow witnesses very much. This has been an incredibly interesting session. You're busy people, and we do appreciate that you've come today to give us the benefit of your knowledge. So we will be taking a break. Now it's just about quarter two.
If we could be back here by, say, five two, we'll change the panels over.
If we could be back here by, say, five two, we'll change the panels over.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Welcome back to the Public Accounts Committee on Monday, the 12th of October 2026. We now move on to our second panel as we explore the resilience of the UK's food supply disruptions. So can I extend a very warm welcome to both of you. Thank you. Your busy people. We're very grateful that you've come to give us the benefit of your knowledge. Can I ask you both, perhaps starting with you, Neil, to introduce yourself .
And a
And a
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
little bit of what your connection with the industry is. Okay, so I'm Neil Ward, I'm based at the University of East Anglia in Norwich in the School of Environmental Sciences. I'm a director of a new organisation called Route and Reason, which works on food resilience. We produce a roadmap for resilience, a food plan for the UK to. 2050 last year. And since . Then
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
committee as well. And Professor Tim Lang, please. I'm Tim Lang, I'm a. retired professor of food policy. So that means I work full time on resilience. I used to head and founded the center for Food. Policy at City University. Is far from a farm as you can get in Britain, but where we've. We cover the agri food system from farm to. consumption and its impacts.
And I'm probably here because I'm the author of a big report for the National Preparedness. Commission called Just in Case, which looked at whether Britain was prepared for shocks.
And I'm probably here because I'm the author of a big report for the National Preparedness. Commission called Just in Case, which looked at whether Britain was prepared for shocks.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Is the era of cheap food over. You can find plenty of people that think that food is too cheap in the in the UK, and that it needs to be more expensive. But the idea of cheap food is one that's deeply ingrained. Goes back 200 years. Repeal of the Corn Laws, 1846. And , and really, you know, for decades and decades and decades, because of our. imperial sort of.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
We had an urban industrial working class that needed feeding cheaply and sourcing food from wherever you could get it cheaply was that was the dominant way of thinking. It was only really in the Second World War where that was destabilized. But a couple of decades after the Second World War, we gravitated back to get your food from wherever you know you can get it cheaply. But at the start of the Second World War, we were only 30%.
self-sufficient in food in the UK. So the situation now is quite . A good
self-sufficient in food in the UK. So the situation now is quite . A good
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
in the late 1930s. Professor Tim, I agree with that. And certainly the. academics are agreed. Indeed, policy analysts are agreed that it's both too cheap but more too expensive. And there are huge problems about the economics of externalities. I'm sure this committee knows only too well, you know, do you include in the price of food, the cost of the environment, the cost of public health from diet, the cost to the atmosphere, you know, all sorts of things.
The real problem is what Neil was alluding to, which is that British feeding.
The real problem is what Neil was alluding to, which is that British feeding.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
That food will be cheap so that you don't have to think about it, whereas in fact, the whole economy is changed, not just the food economy that we work on. The cost of housing has . Rocketed. The cost of. moving transport has rocketed, the cost of your phone has rocketed, and that is a squeeze upon the food economy, because food is what consumers spend their money on. After all the fixed costs are taken.
So there's a real. delicate politics. You'll know only too well as elected people about the cost of food, and whether it's rising. beyond the real costs, and that. politics is very real indeed. And I think Neil and I would agree it goes back. He's quite right. It actually goes back to the the gain the landed. interest made in. 1815 with the imposition of tariffs and then 31 years of.
arguments ending, as Neil rightly said, the repeal of the Corn Laws in.
So there's a real. delicate politics. You'll know only too well as elected people about the cost of food, and whether it's rising. beyond the real costs, and that. politics is very real indeed. And I think Neil and I would agree it goes back. He's quite right. It actually goes back to the the gain the landed. interest made in. 1815 with the imposition of tariffs and then 31 years of.
arguments ending, as Neil rightly said, the repeal of the Corn Laws in.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
And slowly British farming went into. decline and the sourcing went global to the Empire. Shock number one, World War one, back to business as usual afterwards and then bigger shock World War Two, post-Second World war settlement, the Agriculture Act. 1947 said we need to rebuild agriculture. We did. We then joined the European Union, a different model of supporting agriculture.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Lost our way about quite what. After ten years, we haven't got a food policy. We've got a bit of a farming policy, we've got an environment policy, but we haven't got a food policy. So the. politics of cost of food is something enormous. And I looked at it as closely as I could in my just in case report, where I was looking at what are the potential shocks? One of the shocks is going on right now, which is the slow.
inexorable rise of food price.
inexorable rise of food price.
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Speaker 5
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Etc. they all know there's a real lack of clarity about what land is for. Well, I would throw into that. What's food for? What do you want from food? What do you want from land? And the issue of resilience that Neil and I both have worked many years on is part of that. Preparing for shocks to the food system which are coming. And indeed, some are here and more will come.
We need to be clear. What do we want from food? Well, I argued in the end of my.
We need to be clear. What do we want from food? Well, I argued in the end of my.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
And it always comes back to horticulture. We could be growing. You can't grow mangoes, you can't grow melons where you can under glass or under plastic, but you're not likely to grow. pineapples or bananas, Britain's favourite fruit. But there is a lot that we could and should be growing, which we don't need to import. And we could and do in . A
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you Neil. Shocks to the food supply under under. underestimated risks. I think you asked about. And yeah, so I think similar points to Tim, but the first one is around our diet and, and health. So if you talk to people who are responsible for managing the NHS and thinking about the NHS in ten, 15, 20 years time, you know, they're very worried about the mounting pressures on the NHS. Diet related ill health is a major problem and it's increasing as a as a problem, even though there's increasing interest amongst segments of the population on healthy eating and healthy living on aggregate for a population as a whole, we've got a bad diet and it's not getting better, and that is causing a fiscal problem in how you finance the NHS over the medium term.
Larger even than that is the number of people who are out of work through ill health, where diet related ill health is quite a weighty factor there. And so you've got about.
Larger even than that is the number of people who are out of work through ill health, where diet related ill health is quite a weighty factor there. And so you've got about.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Out of work through ill health. That's not just a fiscal problem. That's a. productivity and growth level of the UK plc. So our poor diet is a big economic problem. And I'm not sure that that's. fully kind of. appreciated and talked about enough in government. So that'd be number one. The second is the way we think about our national agricultural resource, our agricultural land and soil quality, and our capacity to produce food.
It's actually really poorly matched to our. nutritional needs. So, you know, we've got plenty of people growing loads of stuff, and it's not well matched to what a healthy diet would would look like. We've got about. 85% of. agricultural land area is supporting animal agriculture either through grazing land, which, you know, some of it you can't do much else with. So, you know, that's that's where animals might graze.
But quite a large proportion of our arable land is, is basically growing animal feed to feed through animals, to feed to humans. And if you think about our. 17 million hectares of agricultural land, that's not an optimal an ideal way to feed the British population if you're interested in national.
It's actually really poorly matched to our. nutritional needs. So, you know, we've got plenty of people growing loads of stuff, and it's not well matched to what a healthy diet would would look like. We've got about. 85% of. agricultural land area is supporting animal agriculture either through grazing land, which, you know, some of it you can't do much else with. So, you know, that's that's where animals might graze.
But quite a large proportion of our arable land is, is basically growing animal feed to feed through animals, to feed to humans. And if you think about our. 17 million hectares of agricultural land, that's not an optimal an ideal way to feed the British population if you're interested in national.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
resilience? To both of you, please. Okay. First. It's hard to know where to start, to be absolutely honest. I mean, we've had 70 years since the 19, well, more than 70 years. My lifetime. 77 years since the. 1978 years since the. 1947 Agriculture Act. And we, like the rest of the Western world, have pursued a model of efficient.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
one form or another. You'll know about and at about cutting. waste on farm. But waste has gone to where it's equally massive off the farm. And about. lengthening supply chains. The the myth of the Ladybird book back when I was young. You're nodding. A farmer grew food and people ate what came from farms. This is complete nonsense. Farming gets almost no, none of the money.
All the money. Sorry. The vast amount of the profits and the value added. If you use value added in now terms value added, it goes off the land. There's a battle that goes on between giant food.
All the money. Sorry. The vast amount of the profits and the value added. If you use value added in now terms value added, it goes off the land. There's a battle that goes on between giant food.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Pretty, pretty big proto giant hospitality. Primary production gets very little. Meanwhile, new sectors like home. delivery or the logistics. industry are actually the logistics industry is really interesting industry. The money goes everywhere. So you end up with a situation where the consumer, the British consumers are spending.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
It would be. fewer single supply chains. The food industry is now, after Covid and all that. experience and looking at the. geopolitics is. increasingly telling me that they're going to double supply chains and back up supply chains and. diversified supply chains. But in resilience theory, what they should be aiming for is network supplies. So actually fewer. distribution hubs through which all the foods go.
So more multiple ways to get. And this is old 60 year old resilience theory now kicking in. Now because of the first question Sir Jeffrey was asking us, which is kind of what sort of shocks are coming. You didn't quite ask that, but lots of different sorts and scales of shocks are now coming, for which the system that we have. designed and developed over the last 70 years is not prepared.
It's actually it's been. prepared to help those risks. It's almost. designed to create those risks and vulnerabilities. So part of the sort of thinking, the sort of the new wave of. academics that Neil and I are part of is looking at the total food system, not just agriculture. Indeed, one of our very. important points to you as a committee that I, for one, really welcomed in the Nao report.
Reviewing Defra was we need to actually have a food systems.
So more multiple ways to get. And this is old 60 year old resilience theory now kicking in. Now because of the first question Sir Jeffrey was asking us, which is kind of what sort of shocks are coming. You didn't quite ask that, but lots of different sorts and scales of shocks are now coming, for which the system that we have. designed and developed over the last 70 years is not prepared.
It's actually it's been. prepared to help those risks. It's almost. designed to create those risks and vulnerabilities. So part of the sort of thinking, the sort of the new wave of. academics that Neil and I are part of is looking at the total food system, not just agriculture. Indeed, one of our very. important points to you as a committee that I, for one, really welcomed in the Nao report.
Reviewing Defra was we need to actually have a food systems.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
It's in and neglect really. If we take a food systems approach and say, what do we want from our food? Back to that core thing? Certainly I think we both raise what's the point of food? Surely it's to feed people well, to make sure land is kept in as good a condition as future. generations can still adapt to, because it's going to change and make sure that we've built in flexibilities.
So if we want a more. resilient food system, we've got to build those. flexibilities in. And we. That means undoing. I want to be very clear to the committee. undoing some of the things that we prided ourselves of as super.
So if we want a more. resilient food system, we've got to build those. flexibilities in. And we. That means undoing. I want to be very clear to the committee. undoing some of the things that we prided ourselves of as super.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Agricultural policy, but we don't have a food policy. Should we have a food policy? Yeah. They're saying things like they're saying things they didn't like me saying the previous panel. 20 or 30 years ago, I can assure you, because I've been in front of committees for 40 years, they didn't like it at all. But yes, it's good they're now seeing it. If you want farming to survive, it's got to become something very different.
It's got to be land. management indeed. One of the people sat in my chair said that we've got to have good land.
It's got to be land. management indeed. One of the people sat in my chair said that we've got to have good land.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
But not excluding food. At the moment . We've switched to the Agricultural Act. Actually, it's really all just about the environment. I think having the environment within land policy and food policy is absolutely essential because looking after a good land. infrastructure is the basis on which a food system sits, and it builds the resilience, the capacity to bounce back from shock. I'm using the word formally. That's what resilience means, but in a way that can adapt to new circumstances.
The thing we always say in resilience and food resilience is bounce back from shock, but to what? To to the old order, as Neil was describing it. No, we can't. We can't afford to have such a bad diet. It's crippling the NHS. And yet we say that's what we have to do. This is we can sort out the food system and sort out the NHS . At the same
The thing we always say in resilience and food resilience is bounce back from shock, but to what? To to the old order, as Neil was describing it. No, we can't. We can't afford to have such a bad diet. It's crippling the NHS. And yet we say that's what we have to do. This is we can sort out the food system and sort out the NHS . At the same
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
public accounts. Neil. Lots to get our head round. Anything you wish to add to that? Just that I think when thinking about resilience, it's important to. There's acute shocks and and stresses in the system, but I think it's really important to for a resilient food system to be coping with the chronic build up of pressures. So we mustn't think about resilience as just about emergency planning.
We've got to look at these big drivers of change in the food system that are going to unfold over the next. 20 or 30 years. So that's resilience in the face of climate change and adapting to climate change. It's the health crisis crisis. It's the the squeeze around land use. We've we've got a problem with sort of multiple and competing objectives around land use. And we need some clarity to sort that out.
And the. geopolitical shocks and pressures, which, you know, I think a witness in the last session said we view the last 6 or 7 years now as the new normal. And I think that that is gradually sinking in. When I started this work on roadmap for resilience, which was in.
We've got to look at these big drivers of change in the food system that are going to unfold over the next. 20 or 30 years. So that's resilience in the face of climate change and adapting to climate change. It's the health crisis crisis. It's the the squeeze around land use. We've we've got a problem with sort of multiple and competing objectives around land use. And we need some clarity to sort that out.
And the. geopolitical shocks and pressures, which, you know, I think a witness in the last session said we view the last 6 or 7 years now as the new normal. And I think that that is gradually sinking in. When I started this work on roadmap for resilience, which was in.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think there was still, you know, a lot of people that thought we were there were these sort of odd shocks that we just had to recover and get back to where we were beforehand. Build back better, you know, just get back to where we were before the last crisis. But the crises are coming so thick and fast that that .
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Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
on. Very interesting. Rupert. Thank you. Geoffrey. I think we'd all accept that farming is a long term business, requiring a lot of capital investment over a long period of time. And it takes a long time to, if you like, feed, feed the beast and make sure that we do have secure food. Now, last year, it took a long time for Daniel Zeichner and his team to actually get out.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
A change of government that was all swept away. And basically we've had nothing since. So to get. something to answer your question, Mr. Lowe was a lot better. That wasn't my question. It wasn't your question. But I'm giving the good news. The the the is inadequate. No, because I think the enormity of British. politics in which your part and policy making of realizing we have a different food system, there are different crises coming down the track and indeed already here, and a different policy framework is needed.
That's a very big shift for a department. Let me be very clear as a Defra watcher, a department which is weak.
That's a very big shift for a department. Let me be very clear as a Defra watcher, a department which is weak.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
To urge them in the Civil. Contingencies Review, not Agricultural Review civil. Contingency review . That food should feature very highly in that. And I was a signatory to a. coalition of food industry and civil. society calling for a new food bill. Three months ago. We all think there is just this empty hole at the heart of government. It's not taking food.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
And I'm sure, you know, it's accelerating at the moment because of the events that Neil has been saying, and I agree with him. Events are making food security and food resilience become higher profile. So I think we should push government very hard, hold it to. account to do more, a bigger scale. They're pouring out present governments, pouring out little. initiatives trying to fill the space.
Actually, the food system is so enormous. Little projects here and there ain't going to do it.
Actually, the food system is so enormous. Little projects here and there ain't going to do it.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Change we need to do and argue that over the next 20 years, we've got to go in a different. direction to what we've done for the last 70 years. That's what the conclusion of my Just in case report, if you really want to take climate change seriously, it's what Neil's report, The Roadmap for resilience, says, and I went particularly with looking at the public. Is the public prepared? Is food. consumer culture prepared? And I was very critical of Defra for being silent on that.
You know, you could just take food out of its title and call it dearer again, because actually captures really what the reality has been. And it's why on the letter last week that Neil and I sent and I was the lead person on that, we. suggested even the Prime Minister renames Defra as Department for Environment and Food Security. It would hold it to. account for what is it doing for food security.
And the answer is, at the moment, not enough, but a little bit more than there has . Been for
You know, you could just take food out of its title and call it dearer again, because actually captures really what the reality has been. And it's why on the letter last week that Neil and I sent and I was the lead person on that, we. suggested even the Prime Minister renames Defra as Department for Environment and Food Security. It would hold it to. account for what is it doing for food security.
And the answer is, at the moment, not enough, but a little bit more than there has . Been for
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
is my honest answer. Neil, do you want to add to that the the strategy says I'm quoting directly. I think it has become increasingly apparent that the food system is driving negative impacts on our health, environment and resilience that undermine our food security. It's quite something for a. government strategy document to admit that. So, you know, there's a sense in which that document is quite, quite a bold step in acknowledging some problems.
I think it's then, well, what's to be done about it and what's the long term vision and what do we aspire to in, say.
I think it's then, well, what's to be done about it and what's the long term vision and what do we aspire to in, say.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You know, some months ago or 18 months ago. And and there doesn't seem to be a lot of profile around what's happening. So one has to work quite hard to find out what work is going on around that strategy. There are some that are concerned that it's not an open enough conversation. There's there's a lot of very good and very committed groups around food system reform beyond the food companies themselves. And I think there's a concern that it might be a conversation that's happening just between government and the food industry without that wider set of voices.
But I think it's always a challenge. With Defra. It was interesting. I was working in the Cabinet Office around the time that the government, the last Labour government, was worrying about what to do with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and worked on proposals for a Department of Rural Affairs, Rural Affairs, which was what that proposal was in the. 2001 general election. Defra is actually quite an accident of history.
It wasn't meant to be like this. It was meant to be a Department for Rural Development. But I think Tim's right. You get more purchase and more traction sometimes when you can pin food system reform onto health or economy and, and, and growth agendas that are outwith Defra because it is quite .
But I think it's always a challenge. With Defra. It was interesting. I was working in the Cabinet Office around the time that the government, the last Labour government, was worrying about what to do with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and worked on proposals for a Department of Rural Affairs, Rural Affairs, which was what that proposal was in the. 2001 general election. Defra is actually quite an accident of history.
It wasn't meant to be like this. It was meant to be a Department for Rural Development. But I think Tim's right. You get more purchase and more traction sometimes when you can pin food system reform onto health or economy and, and, and growth agendas that are outwith Defra because it is quite .
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Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
So much as we as we clearly did in Covid? I'll be clear because I dealt with that in my report at some length. The just in case report for the National Preparedness Commission. The danger is the food retailers are so powerful, they are the gatekeepers. They are also the choke point. They're the risks. Actually, they're the most vulnerable spot. But I think I mean, Neil, in an earlier answer said public engagement is or this is my language, the public need to be involved in that process much more.
If you look at Defra's committees, the Food strategy committee, no consumers on it. If you look at one of the other ones, there's one. And yet, you know, it's as though British policy reflexes just to say we're only concerned about.
If you look at Defra's committees, the Food strategy committee, no consumers on it. If you look at one of the other ones, there's one. And yet, you know, it's as though British policy reflexes just to say we're only concerned about.
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Rupert Lowe
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Rupert Lowe
That's the key difference. It's what keeps people on the land. Okay, so my final question really is, and I hate asking this because I personally don't think there are any areas where. government actually improves things. But but are there any areas where you to think that the government should be taking a more . Active
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
role to ensure ensure food supply resilience? So the. economists in the in the Treasury and elsewhere have an orthodoxy for, you know, where should government be getting involved in things? And it's market failure. And and public goods are the sort of concepts that they use. The world is not actually as simple as that, but it helps to think that way. If you're an economist.
Now, food resilience is the resilience of the food system is a public good. And so I think there is a legitimate case for you need. The private sector will not just sort that out by itself.
Now, food resilience is the resilience of the food system is a public good. And so I think there is a legitimate case for you need. The private sector will not just sort that out by itself.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Because it is driven by profit and, you know, it just won't do that. So you need some government. intervention there. You need a government vision. You need to be able to have. resilience targets, resilience planning that brings citizens and and food poverty groups and. distributors and, and producers together. You need someone to convene the meetings . And, you know, I think there's a role . For
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
More government help. And I saw you nodding to that. I think the role for to pitch in. Can I come in? I think to answer your question in a different way, I agree with what Neil said. The role of government in this is to to be the framework to facilitate. What do we want from that total food system? We've got at the moment, very, very, dare I say, almost.
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Speaker 5
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Key industry. It should be without logistics in the U.S. it is in the US trucks. It's trucks. 1 in 5 trucks on British roads is food. You know, crisis in the diesel market. Wow. Everything falls apart. But the role of government, I think picking up following Neil is about. facilitating and being clear and banging heads together and saying the public interest is in the answer of my report was feeding people in good times and bad.
It's very simple actually. And around that we have to do some hard stuff. We've got to be very clear about. defending food.
It's very simple actually. And around that we have to do some hard stuff. We've got to be very clear about. defending food.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Disinformation is a huge I've just come from a huge meeting talking about that, the. disinformation as a risk on food systems is a completely new. phenomenon in changing food markets. So we want government to frame. That doesn't mean to say it's the old arguments of nannies call them parents, and everyone's in favour of them.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Neil said, calling the meeting. But going back to the previous answer to Mr. Low, not just saying there are problems here, but saying here's what we want to do about it. Are you up for it or are you not unlocking investment? There's walls of cash in the city that are being held back from making the food system more resilient. I was at a huge meeting two weeks ago in the city where this was being discussed.
I was a speaker at it. We were discussing this big insurance companies. banks awash with money, which is not being applied to developing a new. infrastructure for the food system to make it more resilient. Why not? The . Only
I was a speaker at it. We were discussing this big insurance companies. banks awash with money, which is not being applied to developing a new. infrastructure for the food system to make it more resilient. Why not? The . Only
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
government can call that discussion together, I think. Could I just could I just come in on this point about the role of government? Yes. I mean, we need quite a. transformational set of changes over the next 25 years. We have had big food system transformation in living memory. In the 1940s, 50s, 60s, we raised our productivity immensely. There was huge technological change. There was change in cropping practices.
You know, that change didn't happen just as a result of sort of spontaneous activity by companies. It was. orchestrated and convened by a partnership between the state and the farmers and agribusiness together, working together around a unity of purpose. And I think there's a lot we live in a different world now, but I do think there's a lot to be learned from the experience of the. 1940s and 50s when, you know, the UK drove a lot of agricultural and food system change quite successfully and in its own terms.
And we should be thinking about, well, how did that work and, and what made that work? Well, because we need a change of that kind of. magnitude in . The next
You know, that change didn't happen just as a result of sort of spontaneous activity by companies. It was. orchestrated and convened by a partnership between the state and the farmers and agribusiness together, working together around a unity of purpose. And I think there's a lot we live in a different world now, but I do think there's a lot to be learned from the experience of the. 1940s and 50s when, you know, the UK drove a lot of agricultural and food system change quite successfully and in its own terms.
And we should be thinking about, well, how did that work and, and what made that work? Well, because we need a change of that kind of. magnitude in . The next
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
we've got food running out of our ears, which is not necessarily the case. Consumer culture is all assuming that food is there. 364 days a year. 24 hours a day. Look at the resilience planning, the sort of meetings I've just been in twice this week, the shock when phones go down, I do not we do not know one of the points my report said we do not know how a.
culture which thinks food is available in that way will. respond to. If there is major.
culture which thinks food is available in that way will. respond to. If there is major.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
There's a bit of. complacency about saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, great in Covid, weren't we? Actually, government was terrible in Covid. It closed down the. hospitality sector when it was actually close to where people are. It needed to be better organised and used. It was people from outside who went to government said to the then government said, don't you think we ought to actually be looking at food because you're closing down some of the workers who are in the food system.
And that's why the Food Industry Resilience Forum was set up and it was closed down. No notes were even taken about how it should be resurrected.
And that's why the Food Industry Resilience Forum was set up and it was closed down. No notes were even taken about how it should be resurrected.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
To be hard about it. We need that. direction to to deal with crises in the short term. But the long term change that Neil's referring to, and I was referring to requires a bit of. political courage, actually. Say, Dear British public, we are now in a new era. Things aren't going to be the same. Here's the options for what we could do.
The food industry broadly thinks like this, which they do. Talk to people. privately and the stories will . Come
The food industry broadly thinks like this, which they do. Talk to people. privately and the stories will . Come
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
And they're not getting that from their governments. If that's true for the supply side, think how true that is for the demand side. Consumers want to have security at one level. They have got it through their phones, through walking in and seeing full, full shelves. But that's very easy to knock. And then we do know indeed food industry. Tell me of the.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
resilience , and what we can learn from them a bit in first, and then you can expand, because Tim will have more to say on on this than me, I think. But yeah, I think it's really good that people are asking this question for a start, because I do think that a lot of discussions about agricultural policy and food policy in the UK are quite parochial. So I think it's really useful to be thinking, what can we learn from elsewhere? Finland comes up very prominently.
So, you know, I would suggest you look at Finland. There's all sorts of interesting.
So, you know, I would suggest you look at Finland. There's all sorts of interesting.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
there's plenty to be learned from other countries. But I'm sure Tim will be able to say much more. Well, no, I think you've you've actually given that breadth. Different countries have different. strategies and their motivations are different. So if you go to the Netherlands, which I did for my report, you know, the. Netherlands small country had experience of famine in World War two, really important in Netherlands welfare and health policy actually.
194445 famine. You can still measure the life. expectancy of Dutch women by the. preconceptual care of their grandmothers. It's quite extraordinary. So famine has a very big impact or threat of famine. And the Netherlands decided a bit like Finland decided to specialise in ceramics and glass. post-Second World War the Netherlands chose to invest in those very fertile. soils beneath the sea level.
So they built a. culture within government of taking food production very seriously. Britain has had a much more approach avoidance approach to that. I agree Finland very good. The closer to Russia, in my experience you get, the more they take this seriously. I agree, Singapore is interesting as a city state. It's decided to double its own production. It's a city state.
It's not a big.
194445 famine. You can still measure the life. expectancy of Dutch women by the. preconceptual care of their grandmothers. It's quite extraordinary. So famine has a very big impact or threat of famine. And the Netherlands decided a bit like Finland decided to specialise in ceramics and glass. post-Second World War the Netherlands chose to invest in those very fertile. soils beneath the sea level.
So they built a. culture within government of taking food production very seriously. Britain has had a much more approach avoidance approach to that. I agree Finland very good. The closer to Russia, in my experience you get, the more they take this seriously. I agree, Singapore is interesting as a city state. It's decided to double its own production. It's a city state.
It's not a big.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
resilience. And what does it want from its land? Norway, by the way, is doing something very similar. So I think we can learn from the the Baltics. I think Latvia was very interesting to me. They looked at, well, what do we do if Russia rides all over us? Well, probably the government will have collapsed. So we need to actually go down the levels and think very local, hyper local community food resilience.
So my answer to your question is don't just look at national governments. We need to look below national governments at the regional. subnational to be pompous. cities down to the very local, one of one of the. Back to Sir Geoffrey's question ten minute quarter of an hour ago. One of the reasons I think Neil and I were both saying you do need government to set new.
frameworks is because I think government. One of the weaknesses of Defra and weaknesses of British government system is it doesn't apply. Food and.
So my answer to your question is don't just look at national governments. We need to look below national governments at the regional. subnational to be pompous. cities down to the very local, one of one of the. Back to Sir Geoffrey's question ten minute quarter of an hour ago. One of the reasons I think Neil and I were both saying you do need government to set new.
frameworks is because I think government. One of the weaknesses of Defra and weaknesses of British government system is it doesn't apply. Food and.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Food strategy. advisor and but they also have. 22 local food partnerships covering the whole of Wales. And county councils are doing interesting things in Wales. So there's much more of a multilevel. To get to my point, don't just look at what we can learn from other countries. We need to look at who is doing and dealing with the. multilevel ness of food security and resilience.
Well, and the short answer to that is no one is doing it perfectly. But there are wonderful lessons we can draw for different levels from different countries. And to wrap that up to, to try to be.
Well, and the short answer to that is no one is doing it perfectly. But there are wonderful lessons we can draw for different levels from different countries. And to wrap that up to, to try to be.
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Clive Betts
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Clive Betts
Short answers please. Clive, please. Yes. You just mentioned there the Tim the issue of the critical national. infrastructure and the the database, which of course, food is missing from at present. Now, I think you just said to us that that is an issue of itself, that there can be a lot more to be done as well. So should should the food supply chains be part of the critical National infrastructure database?
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
But should they then be more done? In addition, I'm going to ask you, Clive, very frankly, is the Pope a Catholic? Of course it is absurd. If we make food a critical national infrastructure, which we do, and rightly so, come a shock within three days. You need some food. Well, actually, you can do without food for 30 days. But it depends where you are. But you need water.
So we've got things like water, electricity and food as sea and ice. It clearly ought to be in the database. The. Now, I defer to your colleagues here with you, the now team. That excellent bit of the report. Just saying. You know, Defra has got the the database. It's got a benchmark. It's got dash dot dash cameras, dashboards.
Well done. It's got dashboards, but they're weak. They're not enough. And but should they be there?
So we've got things like water, electricity and food as sea and ice. It clearly ought to be in the database. The. Now, I defer to your colleagues here with you, the now team. That excellent bit of the report. Just saying. You know, Defra has got the the database. It's got a benchmark. It's got dash dot dash cameras, dashboards.
Well done. It's got dashboards, but they're weak. They're not enough. And but should they be there?
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And I don't know whether it's because of the rules, but it seems to focus on sort of distribution centres and cold chain. It's sort of hard technical kit and sites, big capital, big capital stuff. And you were told about NFU list which talked about abattoirs as well, which, you know, you could add, but there's. institutional infrastructure as well. You know, there are local food groups, there's food partnerships. Tim mentioned 22 local food partnerships in Wales.
There are. organisations that where people come together regularly and talk and think about this stuff. And, and that is part of the. critical national. infrastructure for food. It's the. institutions and food partnerships that help distribute food and help promote growing food as well. That will, it will . Will
There are. organisations that where people come together regularly and talk and think about this stuff. And, and that is part of the. critical national. infrastructure for food. It's the. institutions and food partnerships that help distribute food and help promote growing food as well. That will, it will . Will
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
probably remember, Clive, the government of the day launched the Prepare website. People like me were glad it had been launched, but it's weak to tell. 20% of the population that can't afford to eat well or adequately. Even at the moment, they've got to now spend about £500. Preparing for shocks wasn't helpful. We've got to we can do better next week or sorry, shortly. The government's going to launch a revision to the Prepare website.
I think that's good. We should encourage that. But that just having a website is not. engaging with the public. It's not. Back to Neil's point an hour ago. involving the public or representatives of the public in Defra committees. We need more public. involvement at the heart of what Defra is trying to do or not do with food. So. It's a big.
I think that's good. We should encourage that. But that just having a website is not. engaging with the public. It's not. Back to Neil's point an hour ago. involving the public or representatives of the public in Defra committees. We need more public. involvement at the heart of what Defra is trying to do or not do with food. So. It's a big.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Central advice to government. We've got a few bolt on committees that come one moment seem to fade a bit. We need something put on a better footing. That's when you look at other countries. Back to the earlier question. When you look at other countries, the ones that are doing interesting things for resilience and.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Ours are out of date. It's one of the recommendations in the roadmap for resilience that we have a. coordinating board or committee that sits above Defra, perhaps through the Cabinet Office and reporting to the Prime Minister. It's easy to make these sort of machinery of. government type recommendations in these sorts of reports, but I do think this is a case where you've got a major and complex challenge that does cross government.
departments and doesn't really get the. coordinated focus that that it warrants. I think that this is . This is an
departments and doesn't really get the. coordinated focus that that it warrants. I think that this is . This is an
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Rachel Gilmour
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Rachel Gilmour
I forget the last both of you. Last question again. You've the pair of you kind of touched on elements of what I'm about to ask previously. So you just mentioned, I think you're right, that a government setting up a. website saying this, that or the other is not enough. You're not drilling down as much as you need to. into whether it's local resilience forums.
And then out of that falls the question of how can you ensure that vulnerable people would have access to food during a severe disruption? And out of that then falls. The question is how much should be left to individual. households in terms of preparedness,
And then out of that falls the question of how can you ensure that vulnerable people would have access to food during a severe disruption? And out of that then falls. The question is how much should be left to individual. households in terms of preparedness,
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
please. Well, it's kind of I'm glad I had a button pressed by Mr.. Thomson earlier about different levels. This applies to consumer confidence. I think one of the big holes and actually the Nao report didn't go into this for whatever reason, is storage. If you look at the Prepare website. And I think from the hints we're getting the.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And when if we go to community level, we know that we need something slightly bigger than that. Which is why, again, in answer to Mr. Thomson, I pointed to the Swedish report. The Swedes were very, very. Swedish and said, we can't just say to consumers any more than, well, it's all just up to the central state to have storage. You've got to have different levels of storage, of different things at different levels.
If you want to be serious about maintaining. trust and confidence that the food will be there. So it's back to this. challenge of. multi-level ness, getting. encouraging the. creativity of the British public, which they are amazing. British civil society is fantastic. But as Neil was alluding to earlier, it hasn't got the support or indeed recognition. It's not being included in central.
government of thinking about what do we want from food enough. And here's where they told me loud and clear in my for my report, look, we're doing sticking plaster work in food banks. What would it take for them to become. community food stores now that. What a thought. What would it take for. cities or. towns to have town plans for who could be and which.
neighbourhoods can help each other? What skills would be needed to spread in the. population to enable better access to land? I speak to those of you who are farmers. At what point would you allow ten acres to become an allotment?
If you want to be serious about maintaining. trust and confidence that the food will be there. So it's back to this. challenge of. multi-level ness, getting. encouraging the. creativity of the British public, which they are amazing. British civil society is fantastic. But as Neil was alluding to earlier, it hasn't got the support or indeed recognition. It's not being included in central.
government of thinking about what do we want from food enough. And here's where they told me loud and clear in my for my report, look, we're doing sticking plaster work in food banks. What would it take for them to become. community food stores now that. What a thought. What would it take for. cities or. towns to have town plans for who could be and which.
neighbourhoods can help each other? What skills would be needed to spread in the. population to enable better access to land? I speak to those of you who are farmers. At what point would you allow ten acres to become an allotment?
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The allotments kept people alive. The roadmap for resilience report talks about three core. transformations around making production more resilient, particularly to climate change, but to shocks to to be smarter about land use. So that's my point about mapping the, the productive capacity of our agricultural resource to our to our needs better and making healthy food more accessible and affordable. And you have to do those, those three things together. I don't think we do the accessible and affordable very well, irrespective of the resilience challenge.
But if thinking about the resilience of the food system is becoming more high profile and more prominent, you know, that might be a way in which we can start to get a food system that delivers more broadly across the population, because the Food Foundation have done really interesting work, you know, to afford a healthy diet amongst the the poorest families. It takes up. 85% of total income just on food. So we've got, we've got a problem around sort of access to healthy food amongst a part of the population.
And I think that community initiatives around food, these local food partnerships can be a vehicle to bring all sorts of other. social wellbeing. improvements and deal with quite a range of social problems beyond the food system. So I think it's . Really
But if thinking about the resilience of the food system is becoming more high profile and more prominent, you know, that might be a way in which we can start to get a food system that delivers more broadly across the population, because the Food Foundation have done really interesting work, you know, to afford a healthy diet amongst the the poorest families. It takes up. 85% of total income just on food. So we've got, we've got a problem around sort of access to healthy food amongst a part of the population.
And I think that community initiatives around food, these local food partnerships can be a vehicle to bring all sorts of other. social wellbeing. improvements and deal with quite a range of social problems beyond the food system. So I think it's . Really
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
community is probably going to be the last thing we have in my report. The Treasury very kindly gave me the figures on how little money is spent on the British. population for civil defence, because I was interested following the Sweden, Latvia. Finland interest in getting the population to be engaged in the. general food. resilience and I asked them to show me and they showed me. We spend in Britain one less than.
£1 per person on civil. defence out of. 55 billion for the Mod. Apply that to different sort of thinking. You can say there's there's no civil food defence. If we put a hard. military lens into our.
£1 per person on civil. defence out of. 55 billion for the Mod. Apply that to different sort of thinking. You can say there's there's no civil food defence. If we put a hard. military lens into our.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
be pretty close to that. Yeah, that's why I called it. I said we've got to actually dust down the. 1930s notion of of food defence. And it changes the whole discourse. If you start looking at the. complexity of the food systems that Neil and I and many colleagues have worked on for the last 30 or 40 years, you know, these are acutely vulnerable choke points from very big, powerful.
industries which are vulnerable. They're vulnerable to attack. Well, how can we protect them? Well, the answer is you create a slightly different food system. You go from single supplies to . Networks. And that requires a very different economics. But the notion of civil food defence, I think is a really interesting one. And indeed, it's being applied by some groups in Wales. Now in some of this movement that's going on with approval of the county council.
What would he do at a community . Level
industries which are vulnerable. They're vulnerable to attack. Well, how can we protect them? Well, the answer is you create a slightly different food system. You go from single supplies to . Networks. And that requires a very different economics. But the notion of civil food defence, I think is a really interesting one. And indeed, it's being applied by some groups in Wales. Now in some of this movement that's going on with approval of the county council.
What would he do at a community . Level
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
to protect ourselves? Well, so I want just to finish on that theme, and I want to ask Neil, and I want to quote your paragraph 25 of your evidence back to you. Responsibility for resilience should sit at the lowest effective level, while responsibility for systemic risks should, at the national level, major disruption expose the limits of purely commercial approaches. Resilience should therefore be treated as a public good, requiring a long term partnership between government, industry and civil society.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
What did you actually have in mind there? Well, I think it is partly I've done a lot of work on trying to make sense of how we have the agriculture and food system and land use system that we have. You know, we take it for granted its current sort of pattern and structure. But it's actually a thing that's evolved quite. I mean, you can look over 200 years and there's been huge shifts, but in, in living memory since the Second World War, it's been through quite a profound set of changes.
But they were changes that were. relatively highly planned and. orchestrated by the national state with an architecture of, you know, county agricultural. committees that oversaw what constituted good farming practice in different counties. And farmers could be told to pull their socks up and sort out the rabbits or sort out the nettles or whatever, and, and, and plough more. Yeah. And they were graded A, B, C, you know, so it was, it was quite.
But they were changes that were. relatively highly planned and. orchestrated by the national state with an architecture of, you know, county agricultural. committees that oversaw what constituted good farming practice in different counties. And farmers could be told to pull their socks up and sort out the rabbits or sort out the nettles or whatever, and, and, and plough more. Yeah. And they were graded A, B, C, you know, so it was, it was quite.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
But it was a partnership at that period between, you know, the farmers and the state and the agribusiness companies and science and technology interests in the agribusiness companies. And I do think we need to, you know, revisit that idea of a national it could even be thought of as a patriotic mission around making our food system secure and resilient. And I think, you know, we need that sort of scale of ambition for change that was evident in the post-war period.
The public good terminology is to appeal to the very. doctrinaire economic orthodoxy about the limits of government. But I do believe that the . resilience of the food . System is a
The public good terminology is to appeal to the very. doctrinaire economic orthodoxy about the limits of government. But I do believe that the . resilience of the food . System is a
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
since you agree, can I just can I? No, no, no. Time is at the clock. So can I thank both of you very much indeed. You're both very busy people. We've benefited a lot from your evidence. This afternoon. We will be having officials in on Thursday, and we will no doubt use some of the information that you've given us and the knowledge that you've given us to further probe .
Their
Their
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