Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee
Tuesday 15th September 2026
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10:00
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
In this room. Maybe just ask you to keep your voices up when you are answering questions. Look, it has been a quite remarkable, dreadful summer for wildfires across the United Kingdom. We've seen record numbers. We've seen 19 homes destroyed, over 50,000 acres burned. So ministers, first of all, what? Lessons has the government drawn from this year's wildfire season? Jenny, I think it's logical to start with yourself.
10:01
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. Thank you chair. As I say, it's wonderful to be back. So I think I've said this quite a few times in my own constituency. I know that many people in the room have also suffered from wildfires, and many people watching on the session today will have felt the real impact in their locality. I've had a large wildfire in my own constituency of Dunwich Heath, and I've had many conversations, as you'd expect, with constituents, with the local fire service, and we definitely come out of this in a very different place to how we went into the summer, and there are many lessons learnt from it.
Behavior, further need for adaptation, looking abroad as well. For examples of how the the higher risk of wildfire abroad are real lessons that can be learned here in the UK and I'm sure lots of lessons throughout the the the journey of this session today, but I can't understate or I can't I can't overstate enough how we have come out of this in a very, very different place. And evidently we need to relook at a heightened risk.
We face the highest, the hottest summer on record, which could well be the coolest summer we'll ever have in the future. We've had over 1300 wildfires, record numbers. It's evident that we have to look at the whole the whole suite of changes that need to be made.
Behavior, further need for adaptation, looking abroad as well. For examples of how the the higher risk of wildfire abroad are real lessons that can be learned here in the UK and I'm sure lots of lessons throughout the the the journey of this session today, but I can't understate or I can't I can't overstate enough how we have come out of this in a very, very different place. And evidently we need to relook at a heightened risk.
We face the highest, the hottest summer on record, which could well be the coolest summer we'll ever have in the future. We've had over 1300 wildfires, record numbers. It's evident that we have to look at the whole the whole suite of changes that need to be made.
10:02
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Okay. I mean, there's a lot to unpack there, and that's effectively the purpose of this morning's session. But what I'm hearing from you and tell me if I'm misunderstanding this, is that there is a willingness now to look again at different aspects of land management, responsiveness, these sort of things. Is that a fair comment?
10:03
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think on a headline level, what we have in place now isn't going to be fit for managing fires in ten years time. I've spoken at length with officials about that. There is some stuff that we need to have a greater drive towards, a greater push towards. There's some stuff that we need to look again at its effectiveness, and we also need to look at behaviour change as well.
10:03
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So first of all, thank you for inviting me to come before you this morning. It's an enormous privilege to be here on behalf of MH CLG. And I think one of the things that we learned from the events over the summer was that fire and wildfires is in the right place. Being back in Mhclg. And I think that was a quite a big lesson for me going forward. As we know, the summer was extraordinary.
And can I just open my comments by referencing the extraordinary response from the fire service and all of everyone that was involved in dealing with the the situation as it unfolded, incredible professionalism and extraordinary courage and dedication from all involved. And I think the whole experience just absolutely reinforced how working together across departments and government. But on the ground, the local response communities, the role of local authorities is absolutely pivotal.
It was, I think, the real step change, obviously, the increase in the numbers. But I think one of the things that we now probably have to look forward to is the impact on urban fringes. So where wildfires were more. Considered, I actually come from Yorkshire, as you would expect. I live very close to moorland and you know, it's been a regular feature, but I think the impact coming in affecting people's homes, communities and threatening vital infrastructure as well has has been an extraordinary lesson for us all and absolutely focuses our minds on the need for prevention, looking at mitigation, how we recover from these effects, as well as the response.
And future preparedness is going to be absolutely critical in all of the work that we do. So that's.
And can I just open my comments by referencing the extraordinary response from the fire service and all of everyone that was involved in dealing with the the situation as it unfolded, incredible professionalism and extraordinary courage and dedication from all involved. And I think the whole experience just absolutely reinforced how working together across departments and government. But on the ground, the local response communities, the role of local authorities is absolutely pivotal.
It was, I think, the real step change, obviously, the increase in the numbers. But I think one of the things that we now probably have to look forward to is the impact on urban fringes. So where wildfires were more. Considered, I actually come from Yorkshire, as you would expect. I live very close to moorland and you know, it's been a regular feature, but I think the impact coming in affecting people's homes, communities and threatening vital infrastructure as well has has been an extraordinary lesson for us all and absolutely focuses our minds on the need for prevention, looking at mitigation, how we recover from these effects, as well as the response.
And future preparedness is going to be absolutely critical in all of the work that we do. So that's.
10:05
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
I mean, that's an interesting perspective there because people in more rural communities who've lived with this for years, and if you've not had the opportunity to read the initial written evidence submissions that we got, can I recommend that you do? We got something over 300 of them, and about 70% of them came from private individuals, because you're absolutely right. The response of those who are professionals who do this for a living has been beyond reproach.
But over and above that, there have been hundreds, possibly thousands of people who are not paid to fight wildfires, who are land managers, farmers, shepherds, gamekeepers who often are quite considerable personal risk. And we read the accounts of them coughing up ash days after they've been involved. Just don't hesitate to answer the call. You're right, I suppose, in that we did see the event in Stourbridge, I think, on the 13th of August, and that then brought attention to the destruction of people's homes.
Is that what it takes to meet government? Take this seriously, because that's not a message that's going to be well received in the more rural communities.
But over and above that, there have been hundreds, possibly thousands of people who are not paid to fight wildfires, who are land managers, farmers, shepherds, gamekeepers who often are quite considerable personal risk. And we read the accounts of them coughing up ash days after they've been involved. Just don't hesitate to answer the call. You're right, I suppose, in that we did see the event in Stourbridge, I think, on the 13th of August, and that then brought attention to the destruction of people's homes.
Is that what it takes to meet government? Take this seriously, because that's not a message that's going to be well received in the more rural communities.
10:07
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I absolutely agree with those comments. And as I said, I've seen firsthand local, local, to my community the devastating impact. But I think in terms of what people see on the television screens, I think that was the point I was making in terms of the wider public understanding of the risk of wildfires is something that perhaps we haven't seen before. Now we can, we can, we can we can question why that significance hasn't happened.
But as you as you quite rightly say, the impact has been profound for many people over many.
But as you as you quite rightly say, the impact has been profound for many people over many.
10:08
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Years, I believe for weeks. But it was only then when it hit the suburbs that the Prime Minister convened Cobra. And then, in fact, you were appointed because from the 22nd of July to the 14th of August, we didn't have a fire minister at all. What do we what lessons do we read from that about the priority that's given to this within government?
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10:09
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
But but but I would say I think the the response from the Prime Minister, from the Secretary of State and across the Department has been recognised and has been welcomed with the seriousness with which this administration is is taking the situation. I'm delighted that the Prime Minister has committed to holding the wildfire summit, which we anticipate happening later in October, just pulling together everybody who is involved and recognising, I think it's absolutely right to recognise the role of all ordinary individuals in their communities.
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10:10
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think it's absolutely critical that we pull together all of the learning from across all the different aspects of those involved. The, the obviously, the significance of the local resilience forums, the work that they do, the ones that are better placed to respond to these situations, looking and learning at how we can improve the resilience of those of those of, of different areas.
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10:10
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, I think the most important thing is that through the work, bringing together the key players that we fully understand the change in in needs of for the fire service, the changing patterns of fires, the way that money has been allocated in the past, is it still the appropriate way? Do we need to look at more resource going into what we anticipate to be, sadly, a pattern that will go on?
10:11
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, we're it is absolutely a work in progress, and I don't want to pre-empt the decisions that come out of the summit. What we want to make sure is that that summit isn't just a talking shop, that it actually gets underneath the issues and helps us to address and focus. But I think we recognise the importance of the resource by putting the 97 million in in two resilience before the start of the summer.
And I think that reflects the seriousness with which the government takes this issue.
And I think that reflects the seriousness with which the government takes this issue.
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10:12
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think the situation in South Wales absolutely highlighted how important it is to work across the borders, and that will absolutely be at the core of everything that we do, recognising the different responsibilities through the devolved authorities, but understanding that we need to work together to share resource, if appropriate, to anticipate what's coming. In the same way that we look outside of the country in terms of experience across the world.
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10:12
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, exactly that actually it's interesting to see Welsh administration is organising their own summit, and I'm sure the committee is aware of that. But I agree that we need to have have better coordination at political level. But that isn't to say that the work on the ground isn't happening between the two different administrations.
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10:13
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. Fires don't respect borders. So of course we have to make sure that we have a joined up approach. That means sharing evidence, sharing best practice. And but in answer in a direct answer to your question, is it direct strategy? That's something that are fed in together. That's something that we'll have to come out and through the process of the summit. It's worth saying, just in your earlier question, we already are within Defra scaling up resources in the Department for wildfires.
We have been doing that over the course of the summer since I came in post, and we won't be waiting until the summit alone to move forward with lots of the work that's happening. We've we've got an action plan that we're working on at the moment. We're moving that into the summit. But it also is worth saying that obviously we're not going to fight fires from Whitehall alone. We need to make sure we're investing in the right resources on the ground, and that's through investment with Mhclg, but also with landowners, with land managers as well.
We have been doing that over the course of the summer since I came in post, and we won't be waiting until the summit alone to move forward with lots of the work that's happening. We've we've got an action plan that we're working on at the moment. We're moving that into the summit. But it also is worth saying that obviously we're not going to fight fires from Whitehall alone. We need to make sure we're investing in the right resources on the ground, and that's through investment with Mhclg, but also with landowners, with land managers as well.
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10:15
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Thank you chair, I'm really glad that we're having this discussion this morning, because my constituency in Cannock Chase was particularly badly affected. I mean, huge swathes have been burned. We've lost precious heathland, as Jenny referenced in her own constituency, and we were very fortunate not to have a similar situation to Stourbridge, to be honest. I was at an event on the Chase over the summer where actually one of the things we were discussing was the risks of wildfires and how we can all work together to prevent them.
And just as we were discussing that, the members of Fire and Rescue Service and the police rushed away to deal with a fire that was just outside Brindley Village, just down the road. And that was very close to home. So I think we all realise the sort of the risk is increasing and, you know, it very much is on the doorstep of people's homes. So I just wanted to ask quickly, Baroness Blake, on kind of capacity within the fire service that the chair was referring to, the Chief Fire officer of the Staffordshire Fire and Rescue Service has told me that this summer was unprecedented in his 30 year career.
And he did say that, you know, even with burden sharing, even with all of the additional resources that we've put in place, that there were times where they were so stretched across multiple locations, even within our county, that they didn't have the appliance availability that they would like to have. So in other words, if another incident had happened, they'd have been very hard placed to to attend that. So do you accept at least that this summer's wildfire season has really exposed some major gaps in local, regional and national resilience?
And just as we were discussing that, the members of Fire and Rescue Service and the police rushed away to deal with a fire that was just outside Brindley Village, just down the road. And that was very close to home. So I think we all realise the sort of the risk is increasing and, you know, it very much is on the doorstep of people's homes. So I just wanted to ask quickly, Baroness Blake, on kind of capacity within the fire service that the chair was referring to, the Chief Fire officer of the Staffordshire Fire and Rescue Service has told me that this summer was unprecedented in his 30 year career.
And he did say that, you know, even with burden sharing, even with all of the additional resources that we've put in place, that there were times where they were so stretched across multiple locations, even within our county, that they didn't have the appliance availability that they would like to have. So in other words, if another incident had happened, they'd have been very hard placed to to attend that. So do you accept at least that this summer's wildfire season has really exposed some major gaps in local, regional and national resilience?
10:17
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think I'll go back to what I said earlier. Absolutely. But the with the changing pattern of wildfires, it's it obviously throws up issues in terms of how we allocate the resource. And the whole basis is around how we share out the resource to make sure that we can get speedily the response to the to the correct areas. But this I think this summer was unprecedented, but it's absolutely vital that we look very carefully at all of that evidence and work out how we respond and how we prepare ourselves better for the future.
And as I said, the the sad truth is that repetition of of this summer, if we are to believe the predictions around the the change in climate, it's not just heat, it's wind patterns. Make sure that we, we all pull together to share that evidence and make sure that we can get that response. And we have got pilots looking at appropriate equipment around the country. What is the best way to respond to these types of fires? Because it isn't through traditional means by, you know, and that's one of the things we really have to learn.
So in answer to your question, yes, it was it was a very, very difficult situation, particularly in in the area that you're referring to, obviously your own, your own patch. But again, incredible resourcefulness shown from across, across the pitch to, to come in and give the support when it was needed.
And as I said, the the sad truth is that repetition of of this summer, if we are to believe the predictions around the the change in climate, it's not just heat, it's wind patterns. Make sure that we, we all pull together to share that evidence and make sure that we can get that response. And we have got pilots looking at appropriate equipment around the country. What is the best way to respond to these types of fires? Because it isn't through traditional means by, you know, and that's one of the things we really have to learn.
So in answer to your question, yes, it was it was a very, very difficult situation, particularly in in the area that you're referring to, obviously your own, your own patch. But again, incredible resourcefulness shown from across, across the pitch to, to come in and give the support when it was needed.
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10:19
Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
Thank you . Chair. Baroness Blake, I think you just mentioned then the importance that there is this changing patterns. And therefore we welcome hearing that there are pilots being looking at different alternative means. Now, the UK currently doesn't maintain a dedicated aerial firefighting firefighting capability. And actually any aerial support actually just rests with individual fire and rescue services dealing with commercial providers. But do we realise and recognise that reliance on these local arrangements with commercial providers isn't sufficient?
10:19
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I'll just answer this and then I might ask Peter to come in with the more technical issues. And obviously it has been you're absolutely right to raise this, because it has been one of the issues that's been mentioned quite frequently, and the Prime Minister has committed to consideration of this. At the summit, I had quite an in-depth conversation with fire chiefs just yesterday, and it it's fascinating how aerial intervention can be used. And they describe it as it's very it's good at putting out the flames, but actually not so good at actually dealing with the underlying.
If the fire is caught, you know, in heathland or, or wherever. So I, I look forward to the outcome of those discussions. It's right. It is at the top of the agenda. And obviously, when you look at footage from around Europe in particular, but around the world, you will see the aerial support coming in and spreading their their loads. The other interesting thing, of course, with, with Jenny's situation, you know, local air is the use of sea water and how that can actually contribute.
And that's, I think, a very interesting thing from an environmental point of view, how you balance up the competing interests, if you like, in that regard. But it is absolutely top of the agenda and you're absolutely right to mention it. But do you want to give a bit more.
If the fire is caught, you know, in heathland or, or wherever. So I, I look forward to the outcome of those discussions. It's right. It is at the top of the agenda. And obviously, when you look at footage from around Europe in particular, but around the world, you will see the aerial support coming in and spreading their their loads. The other interesting thing, of course, with, with Jenny's situation, you know, local air is the use of sea water and how that can actually contribute.
And that's, I think, a very interesting thing from an environmental point of view, how you balance up the competing interests, if you like, in that regard. But it is absolutely top of the agenda and you're absolutely right to mention it. But do you want to give a bit more.
10:21
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Of the technical question? Exactly that I would have described it. I think what we we've always relied on fire services, resourcing themselves with a with a sort of thin layer of, of national assets focused at particular risks. And we did have a layer of national assets available on wildfire fighting. It didn't include aerial assets, as we've seen in other countries. And we did have some aerial assets deployed to to some wildfires in Manchester and Derbyshire and up in the Cairngorms in Scotland.
But I think we've absolutely recognised is individual fire services having to look around for commercial arrangements when in the middle of a response isn't going to cut it in future years. So the thing we're looking to do with the fire service and actually with the devolved administration, and specifically the conversation I've had with the Scottish and Welsh administrations, is how we can make sure we've got on call availability that we can rely on in a cost effective way as well, because 44 services competing for the same asset is not very cost effective in place, ideally for the next summer.
So that's squarely on the top of the list for the summit. The other thing we're looking at, and we put some funding into Lancashire Fire and Rescue, is around drone capability. Drones are already a key part of firefighting, particularly in in London. They're already being used heavily overseas and particularly around surveillance. But there's also now technology around water carrying heavy carrying drones. So that's something we're also looking at because whilst at the moment aerial firefighting is helicopters and airplanes, and that is a dangerous occupation, it's fair to say we've sadly seen elsewhere.
I think we've also got to look forward to what the technology of the future is. So we need to solve the problem for next summer, and we need to be looking forward to how we can solve it in future years in a more effective way.
But I think we've absolutely recognised is individual fire services having to look around for commercial arrangements when in the middle of a response isn't going to cut it in future years. So the thing we're looking to do with the fire service and actually with the devolved administration, and specifically the conversation I've had with the Scottish and Welsh administrations, is how we can make sure we've got on call availability that we can rely on in a cost effective way as well, because 44 services competing for the same asset is not very cost effective in place, ideally for the next summer.
So that's squarely on the top of the list for the summit. The other thing we're looking at, and we put some funding into Lancashire Fire and Rescue, is around drone capability. Drones are already a key part of firefighting, particularly in in London. They're already being used heavily overseas and particularly around surveillance. But there's also now technology around water carrying heavy carrying drones. So that's something we're also looking at because whilst at the moment aerial firefighting is helicopters and airplanes, and that is a dangerous occupation, it's fair to say we've sadly seen elsewhere.
I think we've also got to look forward to what the technology of the future is. So we need to solve the problem for next summer, and we need to be looking forward to how we can solve it in future years in a more effective way.
10:23
Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
Thank you. I think I think the drones is a fascinating area to look into, actually, because you said it is very dangerous. Just just back to the point, though, Baroness Blake, where you said about the Prime Minister, you mentioned he's looking at commissioning some of these firefighting planes. Have you had a discussion with him yet about whether that would be a national asset and how soon they'd be available, or is this still all to be decided?
10:23
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think that's slightly premature in in the sense of the number of weeks it's been since all of this happened and the discussions, and it will involve sharing a lot of expertise, bring it together. But I do look forward to having, you know, in depth conversation with them at the appropriate time. Yes. I
10:23
10:23
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So just to say we have started these conversations, we are talking, as is our fire service colleagues already with with providers. So we're not we're not waiting for the summit to start those conversations. I think we need to conclude is exactly the mechanism by which we would, you know, contract for this and also allocate it. Because clearly, when you have as we had competing needs in Scotland and the Midlands, someone has to decide what the highest operational need is.
So we need to have those mechanisms in place. But we're not waiting to start talking to people who may be able to help with the provision, both in the private sector but also the public sector. There are public sector agencies that have helicopter availability as well. All of that, I think, are actively looking at.
So we need to have those mechanisms in place. But we're not waiting to start talking to people who may be able to help with the provision, both in the private sector but also the public sector. There are public sector agencies that have helicopter availability as well. All of that, I think, are actively looking at.
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10:24
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
You start conversations, public government happens. You have to liaise with devolved administrations. You've got councils aim. They'll be into the next wildfire season before we know it. If you don't have deadlines that you set yourself in this process, you're telling me you've not set these deadlines well.
10:25
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
The wildfire season starts next, next spring, or even even earlier. Now, the wildfire season effectively can start even earlier than that, the sort of wildfires we need, aerial assets, certainly, that's when I want to have this in place by. But as you say, chair, there are a bunch of complexities we need to work through.
10:25
Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
I need to follow up on those with those timelines. I'd like to pin that down. Just one other alternatives, obviously, looking towards the military for their capability, which you were mentioning. Now, some of us are very fortunate, actually, with the Armed Forces Parliamentary scheme, to be out in Cyprus with the RAF Akrotiri, when the wildfires were going out last year, I was there and we saw the Chinooks in operation. So what discussions have actually been happening about using military aviation assets to support the wildfires here?
10:25
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
And similarly, they are one of the organisations that are involved in this discussion because it's not just in our area there, obviously. Also there's military assets within the UK. So effectively what we're looking at is across the public and private sector, what are the available, what are the available assets that could be brought into brought into play? And how can we make sure that operationally we can guarantee and rely on their deployability as and when operationally needed? That's the work we need to we need to go through.
But nothing's off the table in terms of who we're going to talk to about that military, other public agencies and the private sector.
But nothing's off the table in terms of who we're going to talk to about that military, other public agencies and the private sector.
10:26
Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
Just on that point, because you mentioned about various assets that we know that there are at least three RAF Chinook, which are not going to be continuing. They're going to be replaced out in Cyprus, and they're going to be replaced by three Airbus 415 Jupiter HC Mk2 helicopters trips off the tongue. But so has the government considered utilizing those Chinooks actually. Therefore, if they're going to go out of service and bring them back here.
10:27
10:27
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Thank you, chair, we've talked a lot already this morning about the need for coordination and strategy to be a way forward for next season. So given the the severe seasons that we've had last year as well, not just this year, why does England still not have a wild a national wildfire strategy, and is there going to be a commitment, do we think, to publishing one before the next season?
10:27
10:27
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So I appreciate that. Was one of the themes in your last session that you had in June? Since I've been in post, I've asked officials and worked with officials to make sure that we have the wildfire action plan. And actually, I leading into the summer, as I mentioned earlier, and I will hopefully this is answering your question, but in a slightly longer form way. But the way that I've seen it is that we need to make sure we're going into spring next year in a far stronger place than we've come out of this year.
So that's a one year focus, but there need to be making sure we're focusing on the two year approach. So what what resources need longer to make sure that we're steering to using the evidence that we have. But then actually what's the ten year plan for this? So it's for me, it's a one, two and ten year vision. I alluded to earlier that we have since been in post and coming out of the summer, we have increased resources within the department for staff within Defra focused on wildfires and the immediacy at the moment.
For me personally, and I believe the department as a whole was to make sure that we we can hit that target of making sure we're in a better place by spring next year, rather than looking at what strategy needs to be written in order to publish that. But for me, it's an iterative process. We'll go in from the action plan that we talked about into the summit and have a conversation with all the experts, gather the evidence and be in a position to make that all public.
But if you're asking me a direct question about the strategy, I think the wider question that I want us to be looking at is how do we make ourselves better resourced in a stronger position in the short, medium and longer term?
So that's a one year focus, but there need to be making sure we're focusing on the two year approach. So what what resources need longer to make sure that we're steering to using the evidence that we have. But then actually what's the ten year plan for this? So it's for me, it's a one, two and ten year vision. I alluded to earlier that we have since been in post and coming out of the summer, we have increased resources within the department for staff within Defra focused on wildfires and the immediacy at the moment.
For me personally, and I believe the department as a whole was to make sure that we we can hit that target of making sure we're in a better place by spring next year, rather than looking at what strategy needs to be written in order to publish that. But for me, it's an iterative process. We'll go in from the action plan that we talked about into the summit and have a conversation with all the experts, gather the evidence and be in a position to make that all public.
But if you're asking me a direct question about the strategy, I think the wider question that I want us to be looking at is how do we make ourselves better resourced in a stronger position in the short, medium and longer term?
10:29
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So I think the the responses really obviously, we are working towards a strategy through the action plan, but I want to give reassurance that we're not waiting for that to be in place before we start coordinating. I think one of the really positive aspects of all of this is the joint governance arrangements between our two departments, recognising the important, you know, absolutely essential nature of the overlap and how we can be better focused on picking up and making sure that we communicate across the piece.
And of course, there are other departments that we need to look at, how we bring them together. And I think it's that level of coordination across government, if I'm honest, that hasn't been there, that we need to use this as a real catalyst to make sure that we get that that rigour into the plan and building on the pilots, as I mentioned earlier, of what works well in different locations through the local resilience forums and recognising the different needs of different areas and having a much more sophisticated approach.
So we can absolutely be ready because unfortunately, as much as we try, weather patterns are unpredictable and we cannot make assumptions of of where where the next crisis might be. And that's one of the issues around preparedness that we need to take into account.
And of course, there are other departments that we need to look at, how we bring them together. And I think it's that level of coordination across government, if I'm honest, that hasn't been there, that we need to use this as a real catalyst to make sure that we get that that rigour into the plan and building on the pilots, as I mentioned earlier, of what works well in different locations through the local resilience forums and recognising the different needs of different areas and having a much more sophisticated approach.
So we can absolutely be ready because unfortunately, as much as we try, weather patterns are unpredictable and we cannot make assumptions of of where where the next crisis might be. And that's one of the issues around preparedness that we need to take into account.
10:30
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Yeah, absolutely agree. I mean, it's entirely possible that the next wildfire season could be just as bad. But as you said, in a very different way in very different places, which I think speaks to the need for that sort of coordination. And I think I do want to say that it's really encouraging that you're both here this morning, that you're both kind of singing from the same hymn sheet, because I think a lot of us who have had this challenge in our constituencies for a long time have harboured concerns that that coordination between MHC and Defra hasn't always been there, that the sort of the fire service and the preparedness separately from maybe some of the nature based solutions of the land management side of things.
So that definitely has to be welcomed. And just on that, we've kind of got to have coordination as well, haven't we, between a national level and a more local level. So one of the things that's already been discussed in my part of the world quite a lot, is the fact that we don't have a wildfire management strategy or a plan of any kind, really, a lot of people are pointing to the Cairngorms National Park as an example of their kind of integrated wildfire management plan as being something that maybe we should all be looking to.
And I know that you mentioned Jenny, which is obviously a national landscape as well as Cannock Chase, is, is that something that the government is looking to sort of try and coordinate at maybe a national landscape level, where we do have precious habitats that need to be protected, but the kind of circumstances around those areas and their wildfire risk is very different. So is that kind of top down coordination going on, if you like.
So that definitely has to be welcomed. And just on that, we've kind of got to have coordination as well, haven't we, between a national level and a more local level. So one of the things that's already been discussed in my part of the world quite a lot, is the fact that we don't have a wildfire management strategy or a plan of any kind, really, a lot of people are pointing to the Cairngorms National Park as an example of their kind of integrated wildfire management plan as being something that maybe we should all be looking to.
And I know that you mentioned Jenny, which is obviously a national landscape as well as Cannock Chase, is, is that something that the government is looking to sort of try and coordinate at maybe a national landscape level, where we do have precious habitats that need to be protected, but the kind of circumstances around those areas and their wildfire risk is very different. So is that kind of top down coordination going on, if you like.
10:32
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that local authorities should be developing their own fire resilience plans and that that should be tempered and managed to their locality. On the specifics of the national landscapes. Again, the department Defra gives advice or historically has given advice on wildfire management. And I think what we're saying today is a lot of that advice that we have been given in the past, the evidence has changed about the threat of wildfire.
So I'll give you an example of my constituency, which I've referenced quite a lot in meetings with Defra. Is that not not three years prior to the fire, National Trust and RSPB Minsmere had a conversation with the fire service at Suffolk Fire Service, and they were effectively compliant with the standards and the expectation for fire management on that land. So the firebreaks were sufficiently wide enough. Everything they had done on the walk around and the assessments was was sufficient.
Evidently we had a huge wildfire there, and now now they are relooking and working with Suffolk Fire Service to increase the width of those firebreaks, to look at what else needs to be done, because evidently it isn't sufficient. What was agreed three years ago isn't sufficient for the increasing risk that we have now. So that advice is changing in light of the increased severity of risk or the heightened risk of fires, and the evidence that has changed.
So I'll give you an example of my constituency, which I've referenced quite a lot in meetings with Defra. Is that not not three years prior to the fire, National Trust and RSPB Minsmere had a conversation with the fire service at Suffolk Fire Service, and they were effectively compliant with the standards and the expectation for fire management on that land. So the firebreaks were sufficiently wide enough. Everything they had done on the walk around and the assessments was was sufficient.
Evidently we had a huge wildfire there, and now now they are relooking and working with Suffolk Fire Service to increase the width of those firebreaks, to look at what else needs to be done, because evidently it isn't sufficient. What was agreed three years ago isn't sufficient for the increasing risk that we have now. So that advice is changing in light of the increased severity of risk or the heightened risk of fires, and the evidence that has changed.
10:33
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So. You might say I would say this, wouldn't I, being a former local government leader, but local government is absolutely central to our response. And the local resilience forums, which should cover every area, are so important in bringing together all of the. The different. Partnerships and looking at the communities of behaviour is another aspect that we haven't touched on yet, but. And I understand that every local resilience forum will need to have expertise on wildfires feeding into them.
But the other area that we're looking at very closely is how we can make wildfire risk explicit in planning policy. And I think in terms of building resilience going forward, that's an area that we have to take exceptionally seriously. Obviously, we've got we've got elements around flooding already that to learn from that experience. But I think now we are in a at a point where we recognise that it's very sadly, wildfires are a thing we're going to have to deal with regularly over the future.
So we're looking at every possible way that we can assist locally for the response. And we used to say, when we were dealing with disasters, that the local authorities were like the fourth emergency service, when the risk to life and property and all of those things move on, the local authority is left then very often to, to deal with the consequences of, of what has happened. So I can't stress enough the importance, but it is that issue of consistency which you quite rightly raise, that we have to make sure that we have a very clear understanding of, of what what every resilience forum should be dealing with.
But the other area that we're looking at very closely is how we can make wildfire risk explicit in planning policy. And I think in terms of building resilience going forward, that's an area that we have to take exceptionally seriously. Obviously, we've got we've got elements around flooding already that to learn from that experience. But I think now we are in a at a point where we recognise that it's very sadly, wildfires are a thing we're going to have to deal with regularly over the future.
So we're looking at every possible way that we can assist locally for the response. And we used to say, when we were dealing with disasters, that the local authorities were like the fourth emergency service, when the risk to life and property and all of those things move on, the local authority is left then very often to, to deal with the consequences of, of what has happened. So I can't stress enough the importance, but it is that issue of consistency which you quite rightly raise, that we have to make sure that we have a very clear understanding of, of what what every resilience forum should be dealing with.
10:35
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
And I'm right there with you on the the important role that local government's got to play. There's a number of us who are former local councillors around the table. So we definitely understand that. But sadly, some of us have also now got local authorities run by people who deny climate change's role in all of this as well. So, you know, sadly, some of this is going to have to happen nationally. Just quickly on the wildfire summit, Baroness Blake, as chair, asked a number of questions around that.
But can I just follow up on a couple of things? What is it that you would really like to see come out of that? As Henry's referenced, the fact that there's potential for fragmentation within the UK. But what what is it that you and the Prime Minister really want to see coming out of that? And then just a follow up to that. Clearly, there are so many affected parts of the country. Mine is one of them.
How are you going about drawing up the invite list for that? How will you make sure that all affected parts of the country are adequately represented at that summit?
But can I just follow up on a couple of things? What is it that you would really like to see come out of that? As Henry's referenced, the fact that there's potential for fragmentation within the UK. But what what is it that you and the Prime Minister really want to see coming out of that? And then just a follow up to that. Clearly, there are so many affected parts of the country. Mine is one of them.
How are you going about drawing up the invite list for that? How will you make sure that all affected parts of the country are adequately represented at that summit?
10:36
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So right from the start, the Prime Minister made it very clear that he wants the summit to be about action and not just people having a comfortable conversation in the room. So it is about sharing best practice, looking at the hard edge of what the implications of that actually are and how it will affect policy. And I think that's the crucial thing to, to, to keep in mind that this gathering of all the information from across the United Kingdom needs to inform the next steps that we take in terms of changing policy.
10:37
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
But I, I can't stress enough how important it is that we get that coordination between the different nations. Absolutely. Right. Obviously, we've got a new administration in in Wales, which we will obviously be picking up, but it fires don't regard, you know, respect any sort of artificial boundaries. And there is a very clear example from the summer of how we need to look at sharing resource and responding to need.
And when you have an emergency, we, we need to make sure we've got everything in place so that the response can come from across the whole country to help wherever that emergency happens to be.
And when you have an emergency, we, we need to make sure we've got everything in place so that the response can come from across the whole country to help wherever that emergency happens to be.
10:38
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
I've just got a couple of questions now on the international aspect of this, and where we can perhaps learn lessons from countries that have been battling severity of wildfires like we've seen for a very long time. Jenny, in terms of looking at particularly Australia and many EU countries, their wildfire strategies place a far greater emphasis on prevention, including landscape scale, ecosystem management. So are you satisfied that the government is doing enough to use things like land management and nature recovery policies to reduce wildfire risk?
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10:38
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Questions in one. So the point around kind of what. Does that mean? What people are doing internationally, I think, is something that I'm really we're all really alive to many countries across the globe, Europe and beyond Australia, Canada have been experiencing these heightened risks for decades. And that's something that we're very aware of learning from those lessons that they've trial and errored for us isn't an unhelpful situation to be in.
Some of it is about behaviour. So if you look at Australia and much of much of Europe, some of the packages of, of, of changes that they've done over the last few decades have been focused on behaviour change, heightened awareness during peak fire risk season and encouraging that behaviour change. And now it's ingrained in the norm in much of those societies that people, individuals take that heightened threat extremely seriously in a way that I think in communities where we had wildfires in our constituencies, we felt that sense that people wanted were taking it seriously and wanted there to be changes in behaviour.
So we we could see it locally. I could see it locally in my constituency that people wanted things like disposable barbecues to be banned or further measures to happen because they felt the real impact and the fear of a fire that many of our overseas allies have also experienced over the years. So I think on the behaviour point, kind of making a wider point, that there are lessons to be learnt and conversations that we need to have as a country.
On behaviour, on the land management point. We've got to manage our land in a way that's appropriate for our land. Some of those lessons probably don't transfer or translate just as easily to our land, but equally there are there are lessons to be learnt on. I don't know if we're going to come on to this in further, but peatland restoration, for example, is a huge opportunity for us to restore nature, manage water. So we've we've experienced heavy drought, and the impact of that has also increased the severity of fires and wildfires.
But peatland restoration is good for carbon capture. It has so many benefits, and it's something that we've been investing in the country's been investing in for the past seven years. And we have to make sure we're accelerating that because we know it is a tool in the right landscape to manage and reduce the risk of wildfire, whilst also having multiple other benefits to nature and to our national resilience as well. So yes, that's a very long way of answering that.
Yes, we do need to look at land management. Yes, we do need to take examples from abroad, but we need to do it in the right way for our landscape, which won't always be a copy and paste from abroad, but some of the behaviour of stuff. I think we could learn more direct lessons from.
Some of it is about behaviour. So if you look at Australia and much of much of Europe, some of the packages of, of, of changes that they've done over the last few decades have been focused on behaviour change, heightened awareness during peak fire risk season and encouraging that behaviour change. And now it's ingrained in the norm in much of those societies that people, individuals take that heightened threat extremely seriously in a way that I think in communities where we had wildfires in our constituencies, we felt that sense that people wanted were taking it seriously and wanted there to be changes in behaviour.
So we we could see it locally. I could see it locally in my constituency that people wanted things like disposable barbecues to be banned or further measures to happen because they felt the real impact and the fear of a fire that many of our overseas allies have also experienced over the years. So I think on the behaviour point, kind of making a wider point, that there are lessons to be learnt and conversations that we need to have as a country.
On behaviour, on the land management point. We've got to manage our land in a way that's appropriate for our land. Some of those lessons probably don't transfer or translate just as easily to our land, but equally there are there are lessons to be learnt on. I don't know if we're going to come on to this in further, but peatland restoration, for example, is a huge opportunity for us to restore nature, manage water. So we've we've experienced heavy drought, and the impact of that has also increased the severity of fires and wildfires.
But peatland restoration is good for carbon capture. It has so many benefits, and it's something that we've been investing in the country's been investing in for the past seven years. And we have to make sure we're accelerating that because we know it is a tool in the right landscape to manage and reduce the risk of wildfire, whilst also having multiple other benefits to nature and to our national resilience as well. So yes, that's a very long way of answering that.
Yes, we do need to look at land management. Yes, we do need to take examples from abroad, but we need to do it in the right way for our landscape, which won't always be a copy and paste from abroad, but some of the behaviour of stuff. I think we could learn more direct lessons from.
10:41
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Just on that. You'll be aware, I'm sure, that there's a big debate raging at the moment around nature restoration schemes and rewilding, and where grazing has been pulled away, particularly from upland parts of the country, and whether that has created a greater fuel load that made this summer's wildfires more severe in some areas. Not all. Where does Defra stand on that? It's a really tricky question, isn't it? And, you know, clearly we can't completely about-face on all of that.
But do you think there's a point there?
But do you think there's a point there?
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So I think it's really interesting. And I was expecting I was expecting this to come up today . So that heather and grassland issue that you're referring to covers 5% of the UK. But sometimes it feels like it dominates 95% of the debate. And I think it's really important that we keep in mind that different lands need different management and where we are trying to do, for instance, peatland restoration or, or management of Heather that we have to use the we have to make sure we're balancing lots of competing issues, including the need to restore nature.
Now, cutting is often a viable way of reducing that heat load and where cutting isn't possible for access or for other reasons, fires licences have been granted. So in the last year, last 12 months, I think 24 licences have been put forward to Defra. Two of them have been approved because other means of land management or grazing haven't been appropriate. So in that scenario, two licences have been approved. But I think it's really important that we don't lose sight of what's why we're doing a lot of the restoration in.
If we continue to invest in peatland restoration over the next decade with the ambition that we have, that will be one of the best ways to increase resilience on that landscape. A wetter more is a better, more. And it provides so many benefits, not just fire resilience, but as you said, water drought management. And my final point on this is you kind of alluded to it around there. It's been a very loud debate, and lots of those points have been very passionately made and brought forward.
But if you look at my fire and Dunwich Heath, not to talk about it too much, but that wasn't nature restoration. That land hasn't been brought back into nature, hasn't been rewilding. It's been it's been for nature, with nature for hundreds of years. But I have seen videos where people are trying to make the argument that because we haven't allowed managed fires, that was the cause of the fire in my constituency, which absolutely is not the case.
So I think we are having in some areas seeing a distorted argument play out, which which doesn't allow us to have a proper conversation about the different ways of managing different landscapes in the appropriate way. So that's quite a long way of answering that question.
Now, cutting is often a viable way of reducing that heat load and where cutting isn't possible for access or for other reasons, fires licences have been granted. So in the last year, last 12 months, I think 24 licences have been put forward to Defra. Two of them have been approved because other means of land management or grazing haven't been appropriate. So in that scenario, two licences have been approved. But I think it's really important that we don't lose sight of what's why we're doing a lot of the restoration in.
If we continue to invest in peatland restoration over the next decade with the ambition that we have, that will be one of the best ways to increase resilience on that landscape. A wetter more is a better, more. And it provides so many benefits, not just fire resilience, but as you said, water drought management. And my final point on this is you kind of alluded to it around there. It's been a very loud debate, and lots of those points have been very passionately made and brought forward.
But if you look at my fire and Dunwich Heath, not to talk about it too much, but that wasn't nature restoration. That land hasn't been brought back into nature, hasn't been rewilding. It's been it's been for nature, with nature for hundreds of years. But I have seen videos where people are trying to make the argument that because we haven't allowed managed fires, that was the cause of the fire in my constituency, which absolutely is not the case.
So I think we are having in some areas seeing a distorted argument play out, which which doesn't allow us to have a proper conversation about the different ways of managing different landscapes in the appropriate way. So that's quite a long way of answering that question.
10:44
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Could I just come back on the the first point about international learning? I just want to give reassurance that learning from partners around the world is already having an impact on the UK response. Firefighters in the national wildfire capability actually trained in South Africa and Poland, and they were able to bring tactics in such as tactical burning over over the summer. And of course, the learning is is always tested, but it's absolutely crucial to know that we are very active members across the international community.
We had the World Fire Congress hosted in London just last week. I was very privileged to go and meet the senior firefighters from around the world, and that sense that the difference that different areas are facing, but the similarities and just absolutely channeling the learning from that, and I'm very pleased to say that we're at the forefront of of that movement and that experience.
We had the World Fire Congress hosted in London just last week. I was very privileged to go and meet the senior firefighters from around the world, and that sense that the difference that different areas are facing, but the similarities and just absolutely channeling the learning from that, and I'm very pleased to say that we're at the forefront of of that movement and that experience.
10:45
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Just just lastly, before I hand back, I've got a bit of a technical question around that sort of international cooperation. The government's previously said that it's exploring cooperation with the EU civil protection mechanism. And under the rescue scheme, there are shared wildfire response assets which potentially can be brought in. Is that being considered? Is that something that might be under consideration at the the summit that's going to be coming up with our EU partners?
10:45
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So my understanding of it is that it's already the UK can seek to access the available assets in the EU at the moment, if if necessary. I think our view would be over the summer that the kind of needs of the likes of Spain and France were were kind of grace there as much as we did need aerial assets. Nevertheless, sort of wildfires they were facing were kind of were kind of much more significant. So I think we have that potential at the moment.
I think our first move, because I was the obvious one to, to kind of to kind of access is to try and make sure we've got our own domestic provision in place first. But I think, you know, there's a broader cooperation that the minister has outlined without EU partners, we've got an MOU with Greece, where we're looking to them to help us understand wildfire fighting better. And we're helping them understand high rise building firefighting better, because that's the increasing risk that they've got.
So I think we're kind of having that kind of discussion. We have got access to those capabilities. But I think this summer indicated that realistically and probably for the foreseeable, the needs in Southern Europe are likely to exceed ours. Therefore, we really need to make sure we've got our own house in order. Yeah. Thank you. Joe.
I think our first move, because I was the obvious one to, to kind of to kind of access is to try and make sure we've got our own domestic provision in place first. But I think, you know, there's a broader cooperation that the minister has outlined without EU partners, we've got an MOU with Greece, where we're looking to them to help us understand wildfire fighting better. And we're helping them understand high rise building firefighting better, because that's the increasing risk that they've got.
So I think we're kind of having that kind of discussion. We have got access to those capabilities. But I think this summer indicated that realistically and probably for the foreseeable, the needs in Southern Europe are likely to exceed ours. Therefore, we really need to make sure we've got our own house in order. Yeah. Thank you. Joe.
10:46
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Just briefly stick with this question of fuel load on the Hill. Don't disagree with you on reweighting the opportunities, but that's a massive task which is going to take decades, probably even on any individual project will take up to ten years sometimes. What's Defra doing to reduce the fire load on the hills?
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
It's a very good question, chair. So the it will take a long time. The ambition is there, the investments there, work on the ground is happening to it. I think I'll answer your question in a few parts, if I may. We have to in order to get to a point where our wars are wetter and more resilient, we have to invest in it. And that does just take time. No
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Where I bring that back to the earlier point that over the last year, we've have had 1224 applications for licences. Two of those have been granted where cutting isn't accessible, nor the stuff nor the fuel load could be removed. So it it it is . It is fair to say that in the circumstances where cutting can't reach. It's. It's a difficult to access site licenses would be approved where cutting or other means of of of management of the fuel load can't access it.
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Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
We've issued two licences. We've only had 24 applications. The vast majority of those were not actually for wildfire mitigation. The licence applications. They were for education and training purposes. And we take advice from the Fire and Rescue Service on each of those applications . And their their steer is that actually there are less risky places to do training than on deep peat, given the.
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Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
No, I understand that I've accepted your point about reweighting. I think reweighting is a good thing, but there are a range of different options that are available to land managers here. There is grazing, there is cutting, and somehow removing. There is going to be reweighting and there is cool burden, as you call it, at the end of the winter. Why are you so set against that? Why are you so determined to leave that fire load on the hill?
10:50
Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
I don't think we are determined to leave the fire load on the hill. What we're saying is that if your long term objective is is the rewetting of the landscape, then coal burning messes around with the hydrology and you don't start to deliver the benefits over time of rewetting. So you've got to kind of manage your way through this process. And we recognise there is a time span, and that's why we enable people to apply for licences. At the moment, we have not had many licence applications that have been credible.
If we get credible licence applications, we will issue them.
If we get credible licence applications, we will issue them.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And so I think this is a really good point about how that 95% of the debate that I talked about often crowds out the opportunity to hear feedback on that licensing. So the CLA provided evidence about some of the practicalities of licensing and how it's very prescriptive on putting in a geolocation. And by the time that gets approved, the wind or the local locality might have shifted, and therefore where they would want to do the controlled burning would be different to the licence put in.
I think those are really that's a conversation that is ongoing with the department. So where there are, there is sensible and, and, and fair feedback on the complexities of licensing. That's something that we are listening to, alive to and should be a reiterative conversation.
I think those are really that's a conversation that is ongoing with the department. So where there are, there is sensible and, and, and fair feedback on the complexities of licensing. That's something that we are listening to, alive to and should be a reiterative conversation.
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10:54
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
And but we've talked a lot about cutting, you know, that wasn't involved in the evidence. And we're talking a lot about today about obviously , wildfires. That's the main topic that wasn't included, all that was included. And this heavily influenced the decisions that the department took in terms of the conditions for the granting of those licences was around burning in terms of biodiversity, carbon and water. I'm not saying that those aren't important factors, but when you're, you know, looking at such a huge the impact and gamekeepers coughing up ash, does it not alarm you that that's the evidence base that you're using in order to make these decisions on, on how you're granting licences?
10:54
Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
Well, we were to two different things when we were making decisions or when ministers were making decisions about whether to introduce the changes to the regulations. We ran a consultation. We talked to a whole range of organisations. The minister at the time had a meeting with the National Fire Chiefs Council, so a whole range of issues were taken into account, including the wildfire risk, before making those changes. When we get an application in for an individual licence, we will take advice both from the local fire and rescue service and from and from Natural England about those range of issues before we reach a decision.
And, you know, we've had licence applications that have come in which have not been supported by the Fire and Rescue Service. We've had applications that have come in which have been supported by the Fire and Rescue Service. So we kind of take this into account.
And, you know, we've had licence applications that have come in which have not been supported by the Fire and Rescue Service. We've had applications that have come in which have been supported by the Fire and Rescue Service. So we kind of take this into account.
10:55
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
What makes it even more strange, though, is that you're funding, you know, the ideal wildlife research team. You're putting a five, five years, 2.5 million government funded research into into the impact of different land management intervention on In intervention on heathlands and moorlands. But you're not you're not waiting till, you know, you're putting government money into a research scheme that you're not . Then
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
And we have such a glaring distinction between, you know, Scotland defining it differently, having a different level. England. And yet, you know, your odds in terms of how you're defining your evidence basis and the decisions and the decisions that you're making off that evidence base. Is that not concerning to you to be at odds with different, different and, you know, and on top of this, we've . Already
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Minister's summit? Well, I think you have made a very compelling case to make sure that they that that that that voice is. adequately brought in. I take that away. I firmly believe that having the local input into all of these situations, looking at the response, is absolutely. fundamental to understanding how we can move forward , because, as you quite rightly say, they are living on the right in the midst of the .
Situation
Situation
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Okay. We're going to move on, Charlie. cross-Government working. Yeah. I should just go. Part of it follows on from the line of questioning. Just just to be absolutely clear. Then on on. licensing back to Defra, who ultimately makes that final decision where there is a conflict between fire authority on maybe a natural England who. ultimately within death,
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
cycle. You both have responsibilities. We are joined at the hip. Well, but at the end of the day someone's got to be ultimate. Does it lie with MH CLG? Ultimately five five policy obviously does overall. So with that that places it with you. And therefore what formal structures are in place that you're working you know hand in hand with Defra. What are those structures look like? How
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
I'm sure, Peter, probably if he wants to come in on that. So experience, I think first of all, I completely recognise the the fact that. probably 18 months ago this wasn't in the right place. I think we were working in slightly in two separate silos. That is a trap that Whitehall falls into, unfortunately. And we've been doing a lot of work since then to, to close that gap, we did set up a kind of senior level strategic group with myself and all the other partners Met Office, the fire service and various others to try and to close that gap.
We set up a bunch of working groups to look at the four aspects of.
We set up a bunch of working groups to look at the four aspects of.
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Mitigation, response and recovery will almost certainly we haven't put a date in, but we're meeting again after this wildfire season to kind of take the lessons away from that. But I think actually the day to day working is much improved. So ourselves, Defra and other partners, loads more to do . To
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
their work and where is that role situated within government? The welfare adviser sits within our national resilience. capability and is an incredibly probably the most experienced wildfire expert in in the fire service. So the national resilience capability is something the department directly funds. It's hosted within Merseyside Fire and Rescue. And the difference I mean, tangible difference. The six wildfire specialist teams we deployed in July and have been engaged in.
wildfires fighting ever since that we've we've equipped with the. necessary wildfire equipment. These are the sort of things that Wildfire Advisor has been was advising us to do so. But they've also it's partly about advising government. It's also about making sure that advice is going to fire services. The 44 fire and rescue services, any of whom could now be facing wildfires. That's one of the lessons from the last, last few years, advising to them about wildfire fighting.
wildfires fighting ever since that we've we've equipped with the. necessary wildfire equipment. These are the sort of things that Wildfire Advisor has been was advising us to do so. But they've also it's partly about advising government. It's also about making sure that advice is going to fire services. The 44 fire and rescue services, any of whom could now be facing wildfires. That's one of the lessons from the last, last few years, advising to them about wildfire fighting.
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Terry Jermy
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Terry Jermy
Risk Register. Terry, you're going to lead on that. Thank you chair, and good morning. Yeah. I wanted to ask about the. emergency alert because it felt like quite a significant moment in the summer when that national alert came through. Baroness Blake, there were. wildfires happening for weeks and weeks, and that alert came through, I believe, on. the 14th of August in my own.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
In terms of lessons learned from the way that the alert it was. The decision was taken through the Cobra meeting. There are differing views, aren't there? Let's let's be absolutely honest about this. But I think on balance, the benefit of putting out the alert has been. recognised across. And I think there needs to be in place a really. sophisticated set of. procedures in terms of when that response is deemed essential.
And of course, as it turned out, and I think, you know, from what I understand, there were discussions about. targeting that response. But but as. the 14th of August came and we know how things had escalated around that, the decision was taken to to put out the alert across England and Wales. And it. certainly caught the. attention of the public as a whole. There are.
And of course, as it turned out, and I think, you know, from what I understand, there were discussions about. targeting that response. But but as. the 14th of August came and we know how things had escalated around that, the decision was taken to to put out the alert across England and Wales. And it. certainly caught the. attention of the public as a whole. There are.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Of course, from certain aspects. I think one of the main ones has been around vulnerable people and having phones that they didn't want people in their household to know about. Those are considerations. There was a. particular circumstance in Wales about the the the. sequence of putting out the alert in the Welsh language first and then English. But I think it's something we'll learn from it, and then we'll.
consider how appropriate it is to use in the future, because what we must make sure is that people don't become complacent about it. And they're just like, oh, it's another. And it's actually used. judiciously to give accurate information about when there is a very serious situation unfolding, that people in the local area need to be aware of. And of course, there are there's quite a.
consider how appropriate it is to use in the future, because what we must make sure is that people don't become complacent about it. And they're just like, oh, it's another. And it's actually used. judiciously to give accurate information about when there is a very serious situation unfolding, that people in the local area need to be aware of. And of course, there are there's quite a.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
To flooding, for example, from the Environment Agency, that they have the numbers of all the people along the rivers of the. particular affected areas. Maybe that's something a bit more predictable. And I think it's the. unpredictability of the spread of these fires and the. intensity and the the risk attached to it . That will . Focus
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11:06
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Did it work? Has there been an analysis and evaluation done about the success? I think it's fair to say the analysis is ongoing, but the initial thinking is that, yes, there were criticisms, but. overall it was. successful in raising the importance of the situation. And this is another thing, you know, I've had so many people coming to me saying, I've just come back from Spain. I've just come back from. So.
So there are signs on the sign of every side of every major road alerting people. And I think it's all taking into account learning from across the piece of how we. most have an impact on people's behaviour. Because at the end of the day, we're firstly trying to have an influence on behaviour to prevent the fires in the first place, because the evidence suggests that most of the fires do have a. relationship to human .
So there are signs on the sign of every side of every major road alerting people. And I think it's all taking into account learning from across the piece of how we. most have an impact on people's behaviour. Because at the end of the day, we're firstly trying to have an influence on behaviour to prevent the fires in the first place, because the evidence suggests that most of the fires do have a. relationship to human .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Appropriate response is. Thank you. Jenny, do you think it's a success? Can I just add to that the point that you mentioned kind of fleetingly about the six alerts, but also about why it was issued? So the decision was taken at Cobra, but on the advice of the fire services. So it wasn't a decision taken at Cobra on the advice of ministers or civil servants. It was explicitly on the advice of the fire and rescue services.
And I think that point needs to be really well made for why it came about. On the point of the six alerts that you had, so I had, I think.
And I think that point needs to be really well made for why it came about. On the point of the six alerts that you had, so I had, I think.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And I got lots of emails next day from constituents who had many, many more. And this is a really important learning that we have fed back. And we had a conversation about yesterday and will be fed into the learnings. The reason you may be aware of why you got so many is that and there's an issue in rural areas and poor signal, then the alert triggers it doesn't it doesn't register it as having landed. So then it keeps doing it and keeps trying again until it records a full service.
And so that's a that's a real issue in rural areas where we know we've got heightened wildfire risk and something that's feeding into the process. But as a principle, to answer your question, do I think it's assessed? I think it was incredibly.
And so that's a that's a real issue in rural areas where we know we've got heightened wildfire risk and something that's feeding into the process. But as a principle, to answer your question, do I think it's assessed? I think it was incredibly.
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Terry Jermy
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Terry Jermy
the the real risks attached to it, then yes, I do think it was, but we need to learn more. Okay. And you mentioned that the process there in reference, both of you to Cobra. Just so we're absolutely clear, because I think this is still relatively new part of the toolkit, and it's relatively new legislation that brought this in. Who . Ultimately
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
11:09
Terry Jermy
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Terry Jermy
But the final decision to actually press the button sits with the Cabinet Office. Thank you. And Jenny, I just wanted to move on to the National Risk Register because the assessment of the likelihood of the reasonable worst case wildfire wildfire scenario is regarded as remote, which we believe is around 1%. And that makes it less. likely than a volcanic eruption or an earthquake. But we've seen significant wildfires now.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And Defra is responsible for kind of the land management side of it. On the wider question of do I think it's it's a fair assessment of where we are. I think all the evidence has shown and the evidence that government builds off from the Climate Change Committee that the realities have shifted and we are now.
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11:10
Terry Jermy
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Terry Jermy
consequence of these fires playing out on our own national security. Okay, so I can turn to you then if if the national risk register is more MH, C or G, where are we at with reviewing the risk register in relation to wildfires? And will that be reviewed? Because it's clearly the risk is. changing based on everything that Defra is saying around climate change, drought, that risk is increasing every .
Single
Single
11:10
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
year. Are we catching up from a risk register point of view? I think it's absolutely fair point. I think the answer is so there is a cycle of reviewing the national risk register. All the risks go through led by the Cabinet Office. But I think you're absolutely right that I think my experience of this summer is the risk. Of course, we knew the risk was changing. That's why we took the steps we took before the summer.
But the speed at which it changed, I think the fire service. ourselves were it's been really, really significant. So I think you're absolutely right that we need to review the risk assessment because very clearly the I think the reason worst case scenario is, is more than one major wildfire happening. And we absolutely saw that, you know, as you mentioned, the, the, the, the emergency alert went off. We had 11 major incidents relating to wildfires .
But the speed at which it changed, I think the fire service. ourselves were it's been really, really significant. So I think you're absolutely right that we need to review the risk assessment because very clearly the I think the reason worst case scenario is, is more than one major wildfire happening. And we absolutely saw that, you know, as you mentioned, the, the, the, the emergency alert went off. We had 11 major incidents relating to wildfires .
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
there's an acceptance of the changed risk? When would that be updated? I will we will go back and have a conversation with the cabinet about doing so. We haven't done over the summer because frankly, we've been dealing with the actual risk. I think the thing I would reassure you is, of course, having an accurate and up to date National Register is really important. We've been getting on with with with dealing with the new reality. We need to make sure that the the way in which we assess that and .
Publish that
Publish that
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11:12
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
before the next wildfire season? Absolutely. Thank you. I just come back on that because I think there's a few points here as well. And correct me if I'm wrong on this. So you were talking about the National Risk Register. But there's also the climate change committees. Fourth Climate Change risk. assessment published in May this year. The next step for that is UK's response to those increased risks. And I know that was debated or has been debated, I believe, at the Environmental Audit Committee, and the government will be responding to that in January 27th.
That should be sitting .
That should be sitting .
11:12
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
register that you're referencing as well. It's quickly coming back on the alert system. Jenny, you said it did a great job of raising public awareness, but that system was designed to alert people to an immediate threat to life. And if we use it to tell people it's a bit hot outside, please to have a barbecue, there's a real risk that it's the boy who cried wolf. And when we really do need this system, that people will not take it seriously.
So would you accept that perhaps in future, that maybe on a locality where there is a wildfire and perhaps a threat . To life,
So would you accept that perhaps in future, that maybe on a locality where there is a wildfire and perhaps a threat . To life,
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
It should be used, but it shouldn't be used blanket across the country. So we have to go back to the point that that advice was issued from the fire service. So they are obviously dealing with a set, a set of evidence that I not attending Cobra, didn't see myself. I do take your point that how do we learn? And this is the conversation that I'm trying to have with this committee, but with the work that we're doing more widely, which is how do we move forward into next summer, two years, ten years? How do we learn from what has worked well here and abroad and where we need to improve? It's a point that's certainly not invalid, but we also have to start from the point that it was the fire service that requested that, based on the evidence that they see, could stuff be tailored if we're if some areas are at higher, higher, higher risk in the future, that's that's something that should should be considered.
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
going to move on to local government and devolved powers. Henry, just before we we do you know, you pointed out the issues in rural settings with the with the alert and receiving it multiple times in Wales. We had the delight of many people who I represent in Pembrokeshire don't speak Welsh. There was a significant delay between the Welsh version being sent out and the English version, meaning that a lot of people were severely alarmed by receiving an alert that they couldn't.
understand and then had to wait for a significant period of time before they received the English version. I wonder whether that's something that you've been fed back to ensure that they're coming out at the same time, so that people are able to . Understand
understand and then had to wait for a significant period of time before they received the English version. I wonder whether that's something that you've been fed back to ensure that they're coming out at the same time, so that people are able to . Understand
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
any given time. Yes, I believe that has been that has been fed back to us extremely clearly. And it's something that we that I mean, obviously, it's a broader issue than solely. wildfires because it's an issue. Anything where you're going to be issuing a while an emergency in Wales. So that's absolutely been picked up on the lessons learned. I'm grateful. I just just briefly, I just want to just for complete clarity, we were talking before about Natural England's evidence review, and I just want to make it perfectly clear.
And I know the committees are all aware of this, but my father is a non-executive director on Natural England, so I just think it's important just in case. But if we move forward now to local government and devolved powers. So I just wanted to ask a question whether devolution by default, makes it. easier for local authorities to implement control measures, such as restricting public access or banning .
And I know the committees are all aware of this, but my father is a non-executive director on Natural England, so I just think it's important just in case. But if we move forward now to local government and devolved powers. So I just wanted to ask a question whether devolution by default, makes it. easier for local authorities to implement control measures, such as restricting public access or banning .
11:16
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Open , open flames. Baroness Blake Yeah, quite intrigued by your question. Okay, so I think the important thing to remember is that Local resilience forum sit above the boundaries and they reflect a local area. So there will be need to coordinate between the different areas. But I really I do believe in this in this instance, that. devolution of the. appropriate powers to a local area and obviously working through the planning.
system can help equip local areas to respond in the most appropriate way, because every area has different.
system can help equip local areas to respond in the most appropriate way, because every area has different.
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
That they're never used. So but in terms of the international, Josh was talking about the international learnings, the you know, these restrictions, open access restrictions are definitely being used in in France in August last year. Do you think that the powers that these powers should be. extended to beyond land that's not owned by local authorities to towards land owned,
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
a very close relationship between the two, because just because I think the local authorities can create bylaws to ban disposable barbecues. But I think in respect of the CLA pointed out that that won't have effect in terms of on private on private land. So I wonder what sort of what your strategy . Is in
11:18
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
terms of making sure that you have consistent. Well, I think that's worth reflecting. And the barbecue issue, of course, is relates to the Department of Business and Trade in terms in terms of implementation. So I think that's a wider. conversation that we need to have. I'm not you know, I still have to have evidence as to how. effective that the announcement was actually in terms of being aware that some shops were still had them in, in for sale after the, after the ban was announced.
So I think it's a complicated area that we need to spend some . Serious
So I think it's a complicated area that we need to spend some . Serious
11:19
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
time looking into. I don't know if you want to. I mean, so the public safety protection orders that are available to local authorities to do things like banning disposable barbecues, I think you're right that they are understanding that they can be used on, on, on public land. So they are a tool. But obviously we need to think about , I think we need a part of our approach between now and the next wildfires is, and going forward is how we ensure that locally, they have the necessary powers to deal with sources of ignition when the kind of risk of ignition is high, as it was in the summer, and how you did that effectively, because obviously having the powers is fine.
You need to be able to enforce. So that's something we're definitely thinking about and definitely, obviously became an issue with disposable barbecues over the summer. I don't know whether Defra are feeding . In
You need to be able to enforce. So that's something we're definitely thinking about and definitely, obviously became an issue with disposable barbecues over the summer. I don't know whether Defra are feeding . In
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Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
We are. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Just just briefly, even before that alert that we've talked about was issued, I was urging supermarkets and retailers around my area to cease selling disposable barbecues because of the huge risk around Cannock Chase. And we did have one fire just outside my. constituency that was directly linked to the use of a disposable barbecue. I appreciate that it sits outside your ministerial briefs on this one, but given the scale of what we've seen this summer, I don't think this is something that we can just leave to public spaces, prevention orders or voluntary guidance.
Because I think the reason Baroness Blake, that we saw businesses kind of flouting what the Prime Minister had asked them to do is because it was voluntary guidance, it wasn't enforceable. So will you take this back to colleagues and really impress on them the need to at least. consider a. nationwide ban on these types of high risk.
Because I think the reason Baroness Blake, that we saw businesses kind of flouting what the Prime Minister had asked them to do is because it was voluntary guidance, it wasn't enforceable. So will you take this back to colleagues and really impress on them the need to at least. consider a. nationwide ban on these types of high risk.
11:21
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Items when this risk presents itself . Again, I think all things are on the table around this, but there's also a need for public awareness raising about what can cause. wildfires and disposable barbecues. Portable barbecues are one, but there are many other things. So obviously we have a. terrible situation across the country of people leaving litter behind them when they've been on days out, leaving a bottle or throwing a bottle out of the car can be just as dangerous.
So I think what we need to come up with is it goes back to what I was saying before about. behaviour and a real. understanding of where the risk is of what actually. causes the problems. It could be.
So I think what we need to come up with is it goes back to what I was saying before about. behaviour and a real. understanding of where the risk is of what actually. causes the problems. It could be.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
But I'm not sure that there is that awareness out there of how just how. dangerous and, and, and then potentially. damaging it can actually be if it's not taken seriously. So I think there's a lot more work to do on this area to raise public awareness. And, you know, if some people do continue with that sort of anti-social behaviour, other responsible members of the community from. experience .
Will
Will
11:22
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
step in and recognise where the risk exists. Again, the evidence that we got from people on the ground was that where land managers, gamekeepers, farmers, whatever would approach somebody who was lighting a fire, using a . barbecue or something that was inappropriate, they got nothing but abuse and occasionally they were threatened. So this would be a very important signal, actually, that that would be . Sent by
11:23
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
government as one occasion where government could send a signal. I am, I reckon I recognise this from the commentary from farmers around Yorkshire, and it is that level of abuse. And it's similar issues with letting dogs off leads and so many of these things that we need to take very seriously. And it must be the most. disheartening thing when, when you have been out to warn people, to ask them to .
Change their
Change their
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
I think, during the process of finalising it before my time, I wasn't directly involved. So I think, you know, I don't give you a kind of a false account the details of how Fire were involved, and I believe they were involved almost certainly via the National Fire Chiefs Council. We I can provide the committee.
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
in in building such. I mean, I think there there are some fairly obvious measures that can be taken around wildfire, wildfire transmission. We've seen in kind of all the rural urban interface is obviously where you have something like a railway embankment fire that then spreads to the boundary of your property, that then spreads, you know. along fences or sheds to, to the property itself, just putting in place basic. Firebreak within new, new development to ensure it doesn't spread really easily from the rural to urban would be the most obvious thing to do.
So balancing obviously the aesthetic needs of a development. alongside very basic wildfire protection that can make the difference between, you know, a house being affected and a house not being affected. There's also spreading from one house to another. Some of that is unavoidable. If you've got terraced housing, that's just very difficult to avoid. But new developments. Of course, planning is always a balance of different and design is always a balance of different requirements.
But there's some pretty common sense and things that can be deployed around new developments just to slow down fire spread that mitigation point. The more you can slow it down, the more time you're given the fire service to then turn up and deal with it. If you don't have those, the fire can spread so fast that the fire . Service
So balancing obviously the aesthetic needs of a development. alongside very basic wildfire protection that can make the difference between, you know, a house being affected and a house not being affected. There's also spreading from one house to another. Some of that is unavoidable. If you've got terraced housing, that's just very difficult to avoid. But new developments. Of course, planning is always a balance of different and design is always a balance of different requirements.
But there's some pretty common sense and things that can be deployed around new developments just to slow down fire spread that mitigation point. The more you can slow it down, the more time you're given the fire service to then turn up and deal with it. If you don't have those, the fire can spread so fast that the fire . Service
11:26
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
can't get on the ground quick enough to be able to prevent it spread your view is actually quite simple measures you can put in, because one of the concerns might be that this would be another, you know, wildfires could be used as another reason why something should not be built, you know, because it's always a challenge with that balance . Between
11:26
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
building and, you know, and those who might not want something built, whether it's housing. I understand where you're coming from. I think it's really important that the wildfire risk is, is part of the overall. package when looking at planning objectives and obviously design, environmental impact, green. infrastructure are a really significant part of the planning process. And I think we have to make sure that the wildfire risk is. incorporated .
Into
Into
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
A lot of planning policy does work around guidance. Jenny, just finally on this one, I mean, obviously you're well versed in the challenges of rural planning and everything else. There are certain simple mitigations that farmers and landowners might wish to to introduce tracks, for example, and other things that could be create firebreaks. And often there's a challenge then getting that through planning. Is that something you would look to work with, with Baroness Blake and others? Mhclg, to make sure .
That that that
That that that
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I think all of that we keep saying in the term needs to be on the table. It is on the table and not just for, for for, for changes on the land use, but also when we look at water resilience on land we've had, it's the two go hand in hand, don't they? Wildfire and drought. We have a real ambition to make sure that we are driving forward land, water capture on farmland.
That is an absolutely a resource that could be used in order to. support wildfire prevention while tackling wildfires. And yeah, so there have been changes announced in the last round on on reservoirs, but there was a real drive from the department to make sure that it's part of a . Number of the
That is an absolutely a resource that could be used in order to. support wildfire prevention while tackling wildfires. And yeah, so there have been changes announced in the last round on on reservoirs, but there was a real drive from the department to make sure that it's part of a . Number of the
11:28
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
solutions that we should be exploring for wildfire management. Is there an interaction between the risk register point here and planning framework, though, because proportionality is the word you always hear in relation to planning policy. So mitigation risks have to be proportionate. If we're telling people that the risk of wildfire is less than that of a volcanic eruption, is it then difficult to force developers to take meaningful measures when .
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Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
We'll move on because that's kind of tangential water availability. Thank you, chair. And the National Fire Chiefs Council told us that water. availability is becoming a growing. challenge during wildfires and heat waves. And during August, the New Forest wildfires. Then the deputy chief fire officer told the BBC that. alongside the difficult terrain, hot conditions and changing wind. direction and. maintaining a sufficient water supply was an additional challenge.
So is the government considering.
So is the government considering.
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11:30
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
fighting? Baroness Blake, would you like to answer? Well, I'll have to. I haven't got an answer for you on that specific point right now, but. obviously we the we're in the process of gathering the evidence around that in terms of the supply. But you've made a very. natural leap across to to water companies. We'll have to I'll have to take that away.
11:31
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
I don't know if Peter has got any more specific. I mean, the regulation of water companies, definitely something we again, we're working on kind of jointly together. I think it's also water companies tend to be represented on local resilience forums when responses are taking place. And fire services normally have a degree of. contingency in resilience around water supply. But we've also heard similar. In other instances that water availability can be an issue.
And it's something that the fire services are will talk about directly with the water companies. They will often, on operational basis, be trying to work with them to ensure sufficient water supply. But in terms of . Regulation
And it's something that the fire services are will talk about directly with the water companies. They will often, on operational basis, be trying to work with them to ensure sufficient water supply. But in terms of . Regulation
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Industry, it's probably one for us to take. Between the two of us. It's worth saying, can I just jump in on that, that the that Cobra meeting that was convened in August following that, one of the actions that was taken from it was the Drought Working Group, led by chaired by Minister Emma Hardy. And we had on those calls, we would have the water.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
related to each other. Is there anything more that you wanted to add on that? I suppose the only thing I would add is that as we start to think about. adaptation to warmer climates, as we move forward, we need to think about these things in a very integrated way, because you're almost certainly going to get droughts on wildfire risk increasing. And so kind of thinking about the interplay between all of these is going to be absolutely critical in .
Terms of
Terms of
11:32
Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
managing those risks as we go forward. Thank you. Just leading on from that, Professor Howard Boyd told the committee earlier in the summer that during the Wellington. 2022 fire, when the fire and rescue Service arrived, the water pressure had been. reduced by the water company itself. However, it is contested whether that was due to. testing by the utility company or due to managing demand during during a heatwave.
However, there was a delay of many hours before the water was at the pressure that was required. So just on that basis, what. responsibility should water companies have to ensure that enough water pressure and supply for.
However, there was a delay of many hours before the water was at the pressure that was required. So just on that basis, what. responsibility should water companies have to ensure that enough water pressure and supply for.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
available when it's required. So I'm happy to lead on that. But with support if anyone wants to come in. So I only I heard of that when I was looking at the committee's notes previously. It wasn't something I was aware of. The fundamental principle is we, we, we need water resilience and we need to make sure that we are holding enough water and that the water companies.
responsible for that in that moment, are also doing everything that they need to do to ensure that there is water security. In these.
responsible for that in that moment, are also doing everything that they need to do to ensure that there is water security. In these.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
There are a number of measures that the government working with water companies took over this summer, including the use of the temporary use bans to make sure that there is where they can build up that water resilience in that in that in the summer of severe drought. But we have to make sure that the responsibility is also on the water companies in that instance to make sure they are investing in their. infrastructure .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And providing that on water resilience as well. That's the only thing I'd add is that Defra works very closely with the EA and the water companies on drought planning, and ensuring that emergency preparedness is part of is part of that. There is actually a kind of a legal security and emergency measures. direction under which water companies have a legal duty to maintain robust emergency preparedness. But, you know, clearly there's a particular angle to this that you're raising, and .
We will make
We will make
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
for firefighting? I think this comes back to the question that I think we just need to take this one away and kind of look at it properly, because there's a lot of work going on at the moment about how we make those kind of drought arrangements much more robust as we start to see wildfires becoming an increasing part of the landscape. We'd expect to see every every year, then we . Need to make
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
sure that this is this is something that's being properly addressed. So we will take that. And if you just add a couple of things in terms of the alternatives that fire service will, will deploy. So the the expert teams that we've, we put in place are trained on tactics that don't require as much water to be to be placed on the fire. So tactical burning, we've already talked about. We've also got the, the things we term high volume pumps as part of our national resilience, which you can deploy to move large volumes of water long distances.
So you can abstract from a lake or even, as the minister mentioned, from, from kind of sea water. So there's when water, water supply is low for a variety of reasons, I want to reassure the committee that the fire service will have alternatives available to them to ensure they can still fight the fire. And that's something we're increasingly. developing and to ensure that we've got alternatives. But of . Course, as you
So you can abstract from a lake or even, as the minister mentioned, from, from kind of sea water. So there's when water, water supply is low for a variety of reasons, I want to reassure the committee that the fire service will have alternatives available to them to ensure they can still fight the fire. And that's something we're increasingly. developing and to ensure that we've got alternatives. But of . Course, as you
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Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
say, it's really important that the fire service has the water available that it needs. That leads me on to farmers and. landowners and the role that they can play in. resilience around wildfires. As we know, farmers and landowners are so often on the front line of climate change, but also the impact that wildfires have on them can be severe and long lasting. The government and I welcome the.
£15 million announcement for on farm reservoirs in response to these drought conditions. But will it also tackle the planning and.
£15 million announcement for on farm reservoirs in response to these drought conditions. But will it also tackle the planning and.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
So, as you said, the. 15 million that's come this summer also comes with a with a real commitment to make sure that we are. unlocking those barriers and we are making it easier for farmers to access that. And that's a piece of work that's happening alongside with. Mhclg on the on the planning point. But I think there's also a wider point, which is. There is a we need to we need to capture water.
We need to do that through reservoir or managed aquifer recycle schemes. And there are so many initiatives that farmers right across the country, and particularly drought stricken areas, are doing or trying to do or piloting or investing in. And we need to make sure that we're supporting them and we are supporting them. And this summer, there has been a real focus on making sure that there's an understanding of where those barriers are and unlocking those.
We need to do that through reservoir or managed aquifer recycle schemes. And there are so many initiatives that farmers right across the country, and particularly drought stricken areas, are doing or trying to do or piloting or investing in. And we need to make sure that we're supporting them and we are supporting them. And this summer, there has been a real focus on making sure that there's an understanding of where those barriers are and unlocking those.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Be it funding, be it planning, be it resources. But there's also other things that I think are really important and are to be explored over the next few months. So in Dorset, there was a scheme that I've been been told of, made aware of and very keen to go and visit it in the next few months, where farmers have been actively working. alongside their local fire service and using getting the right equipment in place to make the adaptations for their water tanks can be used and they have the right equipment.
There are grants available things through farming in Protected Landscapes, for instance, or other funding streams that are available through Defra for farmers to use and access if they want to play that role, and many of them do. So I think part of it is about, yes, we need to make sure that we are giving them the full support as we are to to make to make farm farming more resilient and capture water, push back on some of the challenges that drought presents.
There are grants available things through farming in Protected Landscapes, for instance, or other funding streams that are available through Defra for farmers to use and access if they want to play that role, and many of them do. So I think part of it is about, yes, we need to make sure that we are giving them the full support as we are to to make to make farm farming more resilient and capture water, push back on some of the challenges that drought presents.
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Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
But also equally, there's other stuff that we can do that are smaller adaptations as well. And obviously the grants are limited to those farmers within those protected landscapes. They're not sadly available to all farmers. But just getting. The CLA contended that new farm reservoirs are simply not being delivered quickly enough because of the. abstraction licences not being able to be put through quickly enough, and obviously planning permission as well.
And farmers in my constituency, Glastonbury and Somerton, are saying that the. window for. applications is. limited and some some farm businesses probably won't be able to get bids in on time. So will this be a rolling window? Will there be further windows of. applications and . Will it
And farmers in my constituency, Glastonbury and Somerton, are saying that the. window for. applications is. limited and some some farm businesses probably won't be able to get bids in on time. So will this be a rolling window? Will there be further windows of. applications and . Will it
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Repeated or is it just a one off pot? Can I say do right in to the department? Minister Hardy's responsible minister. But it's something that we are working across the. department with our ministerial portfolios, where there is massive overlap between Minister Stephen Morgan from farming myself on nature. resilience and Minister Hardy on On Water, I will say that Minister Hardy's been convening those drought. meetings and since over the summer, since that first Covid meeting, into the drought meetings, we are seeing some that that push, that political push, that drive through the drought meetings.
We are seeing some really good examples locally across the country where things are happening because of that pressure is being applied from Defra in the right manner. So do . Right
We are seeing some really good examples locally across the country where things are happening because of that pressure is being applied from Defra in the right manner. So do . Right
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
we we. Yeah. Do right in. Thank you. Can I, can I just add as well. Of course, the issue there's the issue of flexibility. I think that farmers have been raising a huge amount of. This, of course, has come from the situation they've faced repeatedly around drought. But we're currently working with the National Farmers Union on an evidence led review around introducing permitted.
development rights on for on farm reservoirs. And I think it's that, you know, that that ability to take more control of of what they're able to do, that is . A
development rights on for on farm reservoirs. And I think it's that, you know, that that ability to take more control of of what they're able to do, that is . A
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Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
huge desire from the, from the communities that have been affected. And that's welcome news. Certainly in Somerset, we we spend a lot of time, certainly on the levels of moors underwater. But obviously, as the rest of the country has seen significant drought over the summer. So the ability to be able to hold water where it's. required at the time that is needed will be much appreciated. But just kind of looking at another point.
Across the country. communities are facing, you know, exceptional risk for wildfires, as we know. And this this year has been unprecedented. I've written to the water minister to ask that fire pond. creation within community areas be. explicitly and formally recognised within the farming roadmap. Now, given the growing risk of.
Across the country. communities are facing, you know, exceptional risk for wildfires, as we know. And this this year has been unprecedented. I've written to the water minister to ask that fire pond. creation within community areas be. explicitly and formally recognised within the farming roadmap. Now, given the growing risk of.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
things could be managed on the ground, which they're not at the moment. I think the working principle, as we go into the summit, and as I said earlier about the joined up nature between farming nature and water, the working principle needs to be how do we make sure that farms, farms and farmers that are struggling to get access to water, struggling critically, needing to get that water? How do we make sure that they can capture that water on their land, whether that's a recharge system, whether that's a pond, whether that's a reservoir? Frequently you'll hear people talk just about reservoirs, but that seems I always interpret that as a catch all term for water management, water capture.
And there are so many different. ideas and pilots and initiatives that are happening. And it's about making sure that . They
And there are so many different. ideas and pilots and initiatives that are happening. And it's about making sure that . They
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Terry Jermy
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Terry Jermy
Specifically around the changing risk. And you mentioned earlier around. wildfire risk needing to be incorporated into planning policy. There is a huge issue with profitability in farming and. particularly Norfolk, Suffolk. The availability of water is a key challenge. Many farmers in my area are turning to ground mounted solar and battery storage. I've got an application for 5000 acres of solar farm, which is currently grade two agricultural land.
So the landscape is changing. But more importantly, in this. context context, the risk profile is changing as well. Are we doing enough through planning policy to mitigate and account for that changing . Risk in
So the landscape is changing. But more importantly, in this. context context, the risk profile is changing as well. Are we doing enough through planning policy to mitigate and account for that changing . Risk in
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Because there is an increased risk surely to in relation to wildfires? Well, I would I wouldn't presume to give the technical answer to that. I've got Peter here who can attempt to to do that. But obviously, if if there are any significant. changes in as you outline, then they need to be looked at in the . Context
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
risk, as we've discussed earlier. I mean, I won't I'm not an expert on planning issues, but we'll say that that lithium ion battery storage and so on is kind of, I think the the World Fire Congress that we were at last week is probably the issue that's being talked about across the world, across there's a number of kind of vectors for that, not not just sort of the ones you outlined. So I think fire services across the world are catching up with that risk and the, the changing nature of wildfire, sorry, fire fighting tactics.
required for new technology. So it's something that we're we're kind of really sort of alert to. But as ever, the fire service will always be looking to. enable economic development. enable the. environment to, to, to be, to be managed and improved and sustained, whilst also protecting lives and livelihoods. And that's always the balance that we're kind of strike. So they will we'll deal the risk that's in front of us as a as a fire service.
But it's definitely an area where technology is is running . And
required for new technology. So it's something that we're we're kind of really sort of alert to. But as ever, the fire service will always be looking to. enable economic development. enable the. environment to, to, to be, to be managed and improved and sustained, whilst also protecting lives and livelihoods. And that's always the balance that we're kind of strike. So they will we'll deal the risk that's in front of us as a as a fire service.
But it's definitely an area where technology is is running . And
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Terry Jermy
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Terry Jermy
the fire firefighting across the world is looking to try and keep up. I hope it's an issue that you can take away because it is a concern of mine. We've got very remote rural communities, water. availability and if the policy doesn't catch up, we are going to have permissions granted for significant solar farms and a huge changed risk that isn't accounted for in . Planning
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Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
joint on scene response to wildfires. Josh, thank you, chair. As we've heard, I think a lot in this session already, strong working relationships between fire and rescue services, land managers, farmers, rural communities are going to be absolutely vital to tackling wildfires in future and obviously over this summer too. So what steps are your respective departments taking to .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
rural communities? How are we going to kind of build on that? So it is critical. I think I referenced it earlier, some good learnt learning, learnt examples and working examples across the country. In Dorset there is what we've talked earlier about the summit that will be happening next month in this autumn. And it is vital that all partners that play a role in either be it land management, fire.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Fire fighting in the traditional terms, will play an absolutely critical role in that. I talked earlier in my opening remarks about the kind of one year, two year, ten year. focus that I've kind of. projected for wildfire management over the next year. The we need to make sure that we are obviously in a better place entering the spring, entering the fire season, and some of that focus over the next nine months in the short term is making sure that land land managers are working with the fire service.
Re re-evaluating the land in the same way that I talked about earlier, the example of Dunwich Heath, where what was fit for purpose three years ago evidently isn't fit for purpose. So making sure landowners are working with that and taking that advice forward. Equally, there are other land management schemes that should be taken up, and there's more that we can do as a department, and I have asked officials to look at what more we can do to ensure farmers landowners are accessing schemes in order to help them put those mitigations in place on their land, because at the moment, we're not seeing a full uptake of lots of these schemes that are available to them.
So they are there. We need to use them. We need to get them out the door. So I have asked what more can be done to make sure we are focusing that attention to the landowners that aren't . Taking
Re re-evaluating the land in the same way that I talked about earlier, the example of Dunwich Heath, where what was fit for purpose three years ago evidently isn't fit for purpose. So making sure landowners are working with that and taking that advice forward. Equally, there are other land management schemes that should be taken up, and there's more that we can do as a department, and I have asked officials to look at what more we can do to ensure farmers landowners are accessing schemes in order to help them put those mitigations in place on their land, because at the moment, we're not seeing a full uptake of lots of these schemes that are available to them.
So they are there. We need to use them. We need to get them out the door. So I have asked what more can be done to make sure we are focusing that attention to the landowners that aren't . Taking
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
it up and should be taking it up. And then there's the wider 210 year point. But but just to go back to the absolutely critical point about. strengthening the breadth and the experience of the local resilience. forums and making sure that there are mechanisms for views to be fed in and increasing risks, and.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
There has to be a good form of communication. It. It will. Each one should be. bespoke to. reflect the challenges within their local area. And then through those forum, actually making sure that they're. prepared for what might happen in the local area, but. also as a means to share intelligence on a much wider. footprint that then could .
Come
Come
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Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
to influence changes in legislation if required. And from a different perspective, given we've seen extraordinary efforts from farmers and land managers, often jumping into action before anybody else had even spotted a fire ploughing firebreaks, rescuing livestock, often on others farms as well as their own. Is it time now that the government makes a monetary .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
The kind of linking back, hopefully this answer your question, but linking back to what I said earlier about there are schemes and grants available that we need to make sure we are pushing that aren't there isn't there isn't sufficient uptake for them, and that's either due to a lack of. awareness or not realising that the scheme exists, or not realising that the adaptations that . They could
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Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
make are available to them and the costs can be covered for them. Okay. And I'm conscious of time. So I'll just ask this question. We've heard about the chairs referred to it, the considerable emotional personal toll that events like this take on communities, as well as people responding directly. In Staffordshire, six of our firefighters were taken to hospital. They are luckily recovering well now and services have had to bring in on call firefighters extensively.
Some of them won't have had experience of dealing with wildfires before. So what is the government doing practically to support those affected, both . During
Some of them won't have had experience of dealing with wildfires before. So what is the government doing practically to support those affected, both . During
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Thank you chair. Do you want to win this. And then we'll go to Toby. It was just going it was on on the on the next. It was just going back to in terms of the controlled burning. I just had a question when we were talking about. licenses and you said that you had. They had 24 licenses put forward to you, but there was only two that were approved.
So I was I just wanted to ask the question as to. That's quite in that process. Why is it such a small . Proportion of
So I was I just wanted to ask the question as to. That's quite in that process. Why is it such a small . Proportion of
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
the of the overall total that's been put forward? Yeah. So all of those were in the last year. But before my time as minister, my understanding, having been briefed on it, there's lots of those licenses were declined because. It was for they were submitted in for training purposes. And the view taken and the advice given from the fire service, actually, that wasn't it wasn't necessary. It wasn't appropriate in that terrain, in that in that moment.
And the ones that were approved were put forward. And as I said, the advice was given back and the fire service has deemed that to be appropriate. But where it was just training programmes, I think I remember seeing one one brief where it wasn't deemed the best way . To to conduct the training
And the ones that were approved were put forward. And as I said, the advice was given back and the fire service has deemed that to be appropriate. But where it was just training programmes, I think I remember seeing one one brief where it wasn't deemed the best way . To to conduct the training
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
that the applicant had put in. I don't know if there's anything you want to add on that. Yeah. So we've issued two licenses. One was for wildfire mitigation. One was for research purposes. Most of the remains are not all of them, but most of the remains were for training purposes. And as the minister just said, the advice from the fire service is that you can . Conduct
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
for it. There haven't been that many applications. I mean, we've been given different estimates about how many applications might come in. And that's one of the reasons we're trying to have the we are having conversations with, particularly the the Country Land Business Association at the moment about if there are ways in which we can change the guidance to make the licensing process more.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
The two are exclusive of each other. Is that because the controlled burning changes, the changes the. habitat over time, it's very. difficult to kind of get that peatland restoration to get the blanket board forming. If what you're doing is continually drying out the land and promoting continued growth of the woody material, such as heather, which is, as we know, something which is . Extremely
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Huge fires devastating the country? I mean, I can't deal with that sort of, you know, sorry. I recognise entirely what you're saying about the emotional argument and, and the impact on individuals. I think what we're saying is that we need to consider licence. applications on a case by case. basis and against the overall policy, which ministers have decided. And at the moment we are not getting licence applications coming through, which show a kind of a credible.
approach to using this as a as a .
approach to using this as a as a .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
As I said earlier, we were expecting what licence. applications we haven't been getting them through. That's why we're in a very kind of live conversation. I mean, I went out with the CLA earlier this year. They made some very credible arguments, compelling arguments about some things that we could change that would make it more attractive for landowners to apply for . licences and also, you know, showing us why some.
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Jayne Kirkham
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Jayne Kirkham
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
fit for purpose. Do you share that assessment? Prior? Well, the honest answer is that's prior to my time. And I repeat what I said at the beginning, which is we end leave this summer in a very different place. Do we end it? Focus has to be on making sure the adaptations that come forward following the climate change, fourth Committee risk assessment and the fourth climate change that we will respond to in January, meets the risks as they're .
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Jayne Kirkham
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Jayne Kirkham
need to be making sure we are going. further where that's required. Sure. Okay. Well, I mean, the government accepted. I mean, government defended National Adaptation Plan three in the courts under the threat from friends of the earth, but accepted that it needed to change. Now, the Climate Change Committee has said since then that actually this. government's work on climate. adaptation has made no.
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Jayne Kirkham
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Jayne Kirkham
That it it doesn't seem to have changed its approach from the previous government at all, which has been pretty damning criticism when you when you. consider what they have had to say. about that plan. I mean, do you believe that with wildfire records have been broken now three times in the last five years, that the.
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Jayne Kirkham
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Jayne Kirkham
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Adaptation Plan four is is produced? So this is a reoccurring theme of of a wider approach to it, which we are we are committed to making making that adaptation four programme come and it will come. But there are actions that can be taken before that is released. We don't need to be sitting on our hands whilst we're building that adaptation. Building on those recommendations from the climate committee, we have said that we are going to set bolder, more ambitious.
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Jayne Kirkham
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Jayne Kirkham
but we certainly don't need to wait until that happens in order to drive drive. I mean, you know, climate change Committee haven't updated their advice or their assessment. Do you think that they would, from conversations you've had, that they would say that the approach of the government now is better than what it was when they said in. April 2025 that it had .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Made no progress and was no different to the previous government. Well, I might ask you to come in on this, but my my view of it being new in is being new in over the summer. At risk of repeating myself, we are leaving the summit in a very different place to how we went into it. There is a national recognition across government, across all.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
That nature resilience is national related to national security. It has a fundamental. impact on our ability to to across our supply chain, across resilience, across a whole set of issues. There is a a full leaning across government departments for this. We, I, we are yeah, there's a, there's a national government drive on it towards it. And I would, I would certainly I would not sit here and say after seven weeks that I feel that we're not ambitious with it.
I would say that we're more ambitious than we've ever been. We have a climate minister and nature minister for the first time through this government, which was under the last Labour administration from 2024. We've had a nature and climate minister. There is more. ambition that I think there has ever .
I would say that we're more ambitious than we've ever been. We have a climate minister and nature minister for the first time through this government, which was under the last Labour administration from 2024. We've had a nature and climate minister. There is more. ambition that I think there has ever .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
for funding under environmental land management schemes? There's a number of land management schemes where they can already access funding in order to make. adaptations for fire resilience. There is a job and a task at hand, and I've spoken to officials about this to make sure that there is better awareness of that, that they can draw down, be it through farming and protected.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
it through other schemes where actually they are farmers and landowners are able to draw down that fund. But there's a lack of. awareness and therefore a lack of uptake. I have asked to see what can be done to make sure we are encouraging more people to apply to all that. It is absolutely critical. I don't want to see farmers or. landowners not using that scheme and being out of .
Pocket,
Pocket,
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Jayne Kirkham
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Jayne Kirkham
Because they are doing the right thing in their land to make those adaptations. You encourage. applications in that regard, and the Climate Change Committee. highlighted data gaps on wildfire risk to homes, and said that. cross-government recovery planning for. wildfires is is less developed than for flooding. Why should. homeowners or. landowners at risk of. wildfires be confident that by the .
Next.
Next.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Wildfire season, the government will be better prepared than it was this year? It's a very good question. And this goes. So I've asked officials to look at the one year, the two year, the ten year. We have to make sure we are going into spring and wildfire season next year in a better place than we left this summer. There are schemes available that we talked about that we need to drive more uptake there. There are things that we can do to make sure we are definitely more prepared.
Of course, there are longer term investments that need to come. Wider national.
Of course, there are longer term investments that need to come. Wider national.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Including with our devolved partners, to make sure that we are far more. resilient and that that will take the two and ten year approach. But there are absolutely measures, things that can be done over this winter, over this period, including water storage, water capture, access to Elms. programmes and, and and other things besides. But flooding is a is a good example. Ten years ago, we'd be having this. conversation about lack of preparedness for flooding or 15 years ago, lack of preparedness for flooding.
We have come such a long way in, in the last ten, 15 years on flooding, and that needs to make sure that that's a blueprint for how we as a nation, we as a government, are tackling the real threat of fire, wildfire, and using nature and nature recovery as a key answer for that.
We have come such a long way in, in the last ten, 15 years on flooding, and that needs to make sure that that's a blueprint for how we as a nation, we as a government, are tackling the real threat of fire, wildfire, and using nature and nature recovery as a key answer for that.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
And then that will lead to a. But my question is, you can have the money to do this or not. Well, I think I'm trying to answer it, but I appreciate it's not a yes or no answer, but I can answer it by saying there's lots of money that isn't being taken up at the moment through Elms programmes. We need to make sure we're getting that out the door to people that should be using it but aren't aware of it. We also need to make sure that when we come up with the plans for future resilience on that 2 to 10 year cycle, that it's evidence led, and that allows us to have a conversation rather than saying, right, we need 1 billion, but what are we going to spend it on? We need to make sure that it's planned by a real response from the ground on the ground.
And driven by that evidence, that insight, there's going to be a lot of stuff that's going to be about behaviour change. That isn't a question about about. resourcing for infrastructure. That's a question about how how do we shift behaviour. So of course there will in the realm be a question about funding. But there will also be a question about what's the right thing to do, to change behaviour, to. adapt and make sure that we have the right, right resources for that resilience.
We talked earlier about changing technology and aerial use, for instance, the use of drone rather than use of helicopter. Lots of that will be a conversation across different. departments about using modern .
And driven by that evidence, that insight, there's going to be a lot of stuff that's going to be about behaviour change. That isn't a question about about. resourcing for infrastructure. That's a question about how how do we shift behaviour. So of course there will in the realm be a question about funding. But there will also be a question about what's the right thing to do, to change behaviour, to. adapt and make sure that we have the right, right resources for that resilience.
We talked earlier about changing technology and aerial use, for instance, the use of drone rather than use of helicopter. Lots of that will be a conversation across different. departments about using modern .
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12:08
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Using other things like shifting on behaviour. Thank you chair. Okay, well, listen, we've run slightly over time, for which I apologize, but ehm, we have covered the ground that we wanted to cover today. Can I just say to you, it's good to see the two departments here together. I hope that this is reflective of a future intention, that there should be better integration across government. And if I can leave you with one final thought, it is just to instil an ever greater sense of urgency here.
It's September now. We will be into the next wildfire season before we know it, and the machinery of government, very often left to its own devices, will grind slowly. So it is your job . And
It's September now. We will be into the next wildfire season before we know it, and the machinery of government, very often left to its own devices, will grind slowly. So it is your job . And
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12:09
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
As well as the wider community. And I completely take that point. And just to reassure the committee, in terms of resilience of the people involved, we're looking very carefully about the health and wellbeing needs of firefighters. Absolutely critical that we look after the people who keep us safe, and I think that goes .
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