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John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered pension investment in UK equities.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Stringer. I think all hon. Members would agree that UK pension funds are hugely important, primarily to the millions of future pensioners, but also to the many scale-up businesses that are seeking additional investment and need extra capital for growth. They are also an important part of the UK’s capital markets more broadly.
The UK has the second largest pool of pension capital in the world, but only 4% of it is allocated to UK assets. UK defined contribution pension scheme assets are set to grow from around £500 billion in 2021 to £1 trillion by 2030, an increase of 100% over nine years, and that growth will accelerate faster beyond that date. The key issue I wish to focus on is how we are to regulate, manage and enable the future form of that pool of capital, and the appropriate oversight of regulators or Government—if any—of the way it is managed.
As I think all Members want, the Government have stressed the growth imperative and its prioritisation, but under-investment in the UK economy will be a significant dampener on growth. Over the past 25 years, allocation to UK equities by UK pension funds has fallen from more than 50% to 4.4%. Since the global financial crisis, the UK has under-invested, both in absolute terms and compared with our G7 peers. Our investment-to-GDP ratio is around 17% to 18%, compared with our peers’ 20% to 25%. That investment gap accounts for around £100 billion.
The Government have introduced meaningful reforms. The closure of defined benefit schemes has resulted in large amounts of capital being moved from equities to bonds. Although that was a rational response to match the profile of obligations of those schemes, it is questionable whether it is optimal for the wider economy. That eagerness to match payouts to known obligations of a defined population has perhaps encouraged a lack of ambition in investment in the wider economy.
What has happened progressively with DC scheme regulation is passive tracking rather than active investment. We have prioritised the minimisation of costs over returns. That has incentivised more and more funds to invest in cheap asset classes, almost alternating their investments, with fixed income, property and indexed funds being used. That is very frustrating, because over the past decade we reached consensus on auto-enrolment, and there was an emphasis on saying, “Oh, we mustn’t have any fat-cat fund managers taking too-big fees”. There was an anxiety about that, which drove an oversimplification of automated fund management. It allowed everyone to say, “The fees are very low”, but we did not have the right focus on performance and whether we were investing in the right things in the economy. It is obviously cheapest for a fund to go to passive, as it does not require active management and the skills that come with it.
There have been previous fundamental reforms, such as the removal of dividend tax credits. Before 1997, when a UK company paid a dividend, it was accompanied by a tax credit, and pension funds could reclaim that credit in cash from His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. That meant that pension funds effectively received dividends gross of tax, boosting their investment returns. That reduced the effective yield on UK equities held by pension funds by around 20%, which was then the tax credit rate. There have been changes, with ISAs introduced in 1999 and self-invested personal pensions being widened in 2006, but this has removed the focus on UK investment.
Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)
My right hon. Friend makes an interesting point about the change from defined benefit to defined contribution and the impact of the taxation changes that brought that about. Would he care to comment on whether he sees that as part of an unwitting repricing of the return on risk, which has impacted not only on pension funds, but more widely? He said that pension fund investment in the market is down, but retail investment in the market overall is also down very significantly. It feels like the British people as a whole have lost their appetite for risk, and that might be because the return on risk is now too highly taxed.
John Glen
Perhaps unsurprisingly, my right hon. Friend anticipates an argument that I am going to move on to about the wider culture of awareness of where investments are happening in our pensions, how important that is, and how we need to be cognisant of the gap that exists.
Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Stringer. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) on obtaining the debate, which has been quite enlightening; his liberal views on the way forward for pensions are very welcome. The Liberal Democrats are keen to see investment in our British economy, and we are particularly exercised about the need for investment in social rented housing, our high streets and climate change. From my own patch, I reflect on the conversations I have had with our high-tech cluster in Torbay, which often faces challenges in getting investment and getting the right vehicles to support it.
Reflecting on key areas for us, one can understand the principles behind mandation, but there is also the law of unintended consequences, and we have grave concerns about it. A power of mandation might be seen as a reserve power. I am sure, or at least I hope, that all Ministers in power at the moment are reasonable people, but who knows what might happen in the future? Giving the power of mandation to a future Government who may not be run by reasonable people is a significant risk. One only has to look at the other side of the Atlantic and see who now dwells in the Oval Office to realise that some curious decisions have been made there. For many of us on this side of the Atlantic, if the power of mandation was given to similar people here, that would cause us grave concern.
Kit Malthouse
I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s views about mandation, as the Minister knows, but would he care to comment on its impact on the appetite for risk? We have learned from my right hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) that since the change in taxation, the general trend in pension funds has been for managers to de-risk and to go into passive funds. If they do so, no one can complain, they are not taking any risk, they do not have to outperform or underperform the market and they get what they want. If they can pass off yet more risk to the Government and effectively sit there and get paid to be told by the Government what to invest in, they will bite the Government’s hand off, will they not?
Steve Darling
The right hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. One can go back to the significant crash of 2008. I suggest, and I am sure many people would agree, that that has left a scarring on the system and a fear of risk. For many of us who know about the system, risk is a good thing, because it can result in growth. If we do not embrace risk, we will not embrace growth. One minimises growth by failing to go for those risks. I agree that mandation potentially allows people to shy away from risk.
As Liberal Democrats, we are really keen to make sure that there are vehicles for investment, whether in social rented housing, in cleaner energy, in our high streets or in our high-tech industries. However, such vehicles should be designed so that people become aware of them and can make a choice themselves, rather than being dictated to by the state.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Stringer. I will indeed leave several minutes for the winding-up speech. Like everyone else, I begin by congratulating the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) on securing this debate, particularly on the Budget eve; it is very kind of him to make my diary relaxed. It is a topic on which he has thought deeply and that we have discussed many times. As ever, I welcome his constructive and practical approach, which befits someone who confirmed to me earlier that he holds the title of longest-serving Economic Secretary to the Treasury. Luckily, he was not on performance-related pay, given the growth of the economy during that time.
Torsten Bell
He may not have been paid at all. His focus at the beginning of his remarks on growth and one of its key enablers, investment, was right. If we stepped back and forced ourselves to ask, “What is the one thing the British economy needs more of?”, it would be public and private investment. As several hon. Members have said, the UK has the second largest pension scheme in the world, worth £2 trillion. It is our largest source of domestic capital, underpinning not just the retirement we all—or at least most of us—look forward to, but the investment on which our future prosperity depends.
That is why this Government launched and concluded a review of pensions investment within a year of taking office. Those reforms are now being taken forward through the Pension Schemes Bill, as the hon. Member for South West Devon (Rebecca Smith) pointed out. First and foremost, the Bill includes measures to deliver bigger and better pension schemes in the DC market. It requires multi-employer defined contribution pension providers to hold at least £25 billion in assets by 2030 or to be on track to do so by 2035.
That requirement will drive scale and sophistication in workplace DC schemes so that they are better positioned to invest in a fuller range of asset classes, including specialist private markets such as venture capital, which we have not heard much about today but which are key. The biggest gap in UK capital markets is growth finance: the gap that holds back our science and tech start-ups, scale ups and pre-initial public offering companies. That does not take away from the challenges we are raising about public markets, but if we look at our capital markets as a whole, that is our biggest gap.
Pensions can be a key source of funding for those economically critical investments and sectors, which my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham and Bletchley (Callum Anderson) set out, as he has done many times in the discussions on the Pension Schemes Bill. This is not just theoretical; it is actually starting to happen. Legal & General is investing in post-quantum cryptography and Nest is investing in energy generation. Last week, the Chancellor and I met with Aegon UK, NatWest Cushion and M&G, which have all confirmed that they will invest £200 million in the British Growth Partnership, a fund managed by the British Business Bank investing in cutting edge British businesses and building on British strengths in areas such as clean energy, advanced manufacturing and the medical technology that other Members have talked about in the past.
As we have heard, Members are well aware of the Mansion House accord, a voluntary commitment by 17 major DC funds to invest 10% of their main default funds in private assets by 2030, including 5% in UK private assets. That will boost investment across a range of asset classes, including growth market equities, which we have not touched on much today. That is welcome news driven by a focus on giving savers better returns and showing how pension funds can contribute directly to making Britain the best place to start up, scale up and ultimately list companies. I should emphasise that we should think about our capital markets as a ladder up which firms can climb. Our job is to make that climb easier, not just to focus on the ultimate destination.
Several Members raised the question of transparency. The Pension Schemes Bill includes a new framework under which DC funds will need to disclose their investments in more granular detail, including UK-overseas and asset class split. We will be able to see in more detail what individual schemes are doing. We are doing that so that we can measure their value for money. For the first time, we will be able to see where those funds are invested.
Finally, as Members know, the Bill includes a reserve power, which has been discussed today, to ensure that the change that the pension schemes themselves say is needed in the interest of members happens. I will repeat what I said on the “Making Money” podcast—it is very exciting that the hon. Member for South West Devon had time to tune in. I am confident that this power will not need to be used, given the progress the industry is already making. It is designed as a proportionate backstop to the commitments that the industry has already made, with strong safeguards to protect the interests of pension savers.
On mandation, I note—as gently as possible, given the excellent tone of this discussion—that I have spent much of the last six months hearing strong opposition to any mandation backstop while hearing, often from the very same people, language that does not directly contradict that, but gets close to calling for mandation, whether it is social housing, public equities or anything else. I just gently note that tension before as gently moving on to set out some of the wider steps that the Government are taking to support our capital markets, because they go far beyond pensions. It is important to note that although UK equity markets have faced some challenges in recent years, London’s markets remain some of the deepest and most liquid in the world. We want to build on those strong foundations and make the UK as attractive a destination as possible for companies to start, scale and stay. There is a danger here: we need to make sure we are having this discussion about the change we need to see, while also celebrating many of the real strengths that exist in London’s capital markets.
Richard Tice
Is the Minister aware that the quantity of listings on the London stock market has collapsed by about 80% in the last decade, and that the number of companies listed on AIM—the alternative investment market, which was the original growth market 40 years ago—has fallen to a 25-year low, so something fundamental is going wrong with our listed markets?
Torsten Bell
I am. I will just gently say that many people, when discussing the reasons for that, point to a policy of Brexit delivered without any ideas about how it should be delivered in a smaller, home market and without any plans for the future. I would probably pause on that before I started offering anyone views on anything at all.
My Treasury colleagues have already delivered an ambitious programme of reforms: modernising UK listing rules; establishing the private intermittent securities and capital exchange system—PISCES—to support private companies to scale and grow as a stepping-stone to public markets; and making it easier to raise capital and IPO in the UK with new prospectus rules from January of next year. To come directly and more fairly to the question that the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Richard Tice) raised, I think it is important to celebrate the fact that we have seen some of that translate into positive momentum recently. Hon. Members will know that the stock exchange has had a very strong year, outperforming most of the rest of the world. We saw listings from Fermi America and Shawbrook last month, and there are other exciting companies in the pipeline. I now regularly see my hon. and learned Friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury in confetti-filled photographs from the stock exchange, and I look forward to seeing many more in the years to come. I encourage hon. Members to go and engage in similar activities.
Our capital markets are not just about celebration and ceremony; they are critical in connecting retail investors’ capital with businesses in the way that several hon. Members mentioned. Investing offers a powerful way for people to make their money work harder and share in growth. That is why the Government are bringing forward measures to get Britain investing again.
The right hon. Member for North West Hampshire (Kit Malthouse) raised a point, which I have heard him discuss before, about risk appetite and the incentives that people have. I would say that if we look at the evidence from the last 25 years, we see that it is not the strength of the incentive that is the issue. Many people holding cash ISAs would have made very significant returns if they had held that in equities instead. I will give an example. If someone, each year since the introduction of ISAs, had put £1,000 into an equity ISA rather than a cash ISA, they would be £50,000 better off. The issue is not purely about incentives, and I think focusing there would miss some of the wider changes we have been seeing, but I am always eager to hear about what more can be done.
What we are doing is working closely with the FCA and rolling out a scheme of targeted support ahead of ISA season next year. That will represent the biggest reform of the financial advice and guidance landscape—mentioned by the hon. Member for South West Devon—in more than a generation. It will revolutionise the support that consumers can receive to invest.
Kit Malthouse
I get the example that the Minister talks about, but I think he misunderstands or perhaps misappreciates how the retail investor thinks. They do not necessarily think, “If I put £1,000 in now, in 20 years’ time it will be worth this.” They think, “If I put £1,000 in now, what is my return going to be next year? What is my running return going to be?” And it will be a percentage return on the dividend. That is why we have a P/E—price-to-earnings—ratio for every share; that is what investors look at. If that is impaired because of taxation and the return is reduced, as it has been over the last few years, they will be less inclined to invest. That, fundamentally, is the pattern that we have seen. The Minister never says this, but in the end, people invest in listed stocks and shares, whether through their pension or otherwise, to make money. They are not doing it for the good of anybody else. They are doing it to make money, and if they are going to make less money, or the perception is that they will make less money, because of Government taxation, they will do less of it. Would he not agree?
Torsten Bell
I am not sure that I fully understood, so I am not going to commit to agreeing. Remember that the capital gains on shares in equity ISAs—investment ISAs—receive tax relief in their entirety, so the tax is not the problem in terms of people’s rates of return; the returns would have been very real indeed over, for example, that 25-year period. However, my basic argument is that we need better advice, and that our targeted changes will make it possible for financial firms to offer that.
We are also supporting an industry initiative to rebalance risk warnings to ensure that firms are offering consumers information about investing, not trying to scare them off with over-the-top warnings. Together, these measures will support savers in securing stronger returns over the long term because, as the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire just said, this is about making money for savers—whether in pension savings or elsewhere—putting money into people’s pockets and further strengthening our world-leading capital markets.
I will make one more substantive point and then conclude. This is not just about capital. In the end, the growth agenda, and needing the investment to make it happen, is about actual investment not just financial flows. Financial flows are an enabler of the investment that ultimately matters to the size of the capital stock, the quality of the infrastructure, the quality of the firms, and the amount of capital that workers have to work with. That is, in the end, what matters, and it means firms wanting to grow, which is why I focused slightly more in my remarks on the whole chain of firms’ access to capital.
This is also about being able to get out and actually get things built. I gently remind Members, when I hear them opposing anything getting built, anywhere, by anyone, at any time—I definitely hear the Lib Dem Front Bench opposing—[Interruption.] I am not talking about the hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling), but the Lib Dems have never seen a house that they wanted to be built. That is my lived experience of sitting in the Chamber day after day. We need to actually get things built, and as I said, I agree with the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Bobby Dean) on the pipeline of investment. That is ultimately what we need if we want growth to happen; it cannot just be about changing the flows of existing assets.
I once again thank the right hon. Member for Salisbury for securing today’s debate. A strong pensions industry and thriving capital markets are cornerstones of our capitalism, as I think everybody in this Chamber agrees. We are introducing significant reforms of both the capital markets and the pensions industry, and I am grateful to have had the chance to discuss them this afternoon.