The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
It is the turn of the Minister.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for their comments on this subject. Despite the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, having just congratulated me on my position, I find myself virtually wholly disagreeing with what he said, save only one thing, which is that the quality, frequency and reliability of bus services are very important to all those who use the most popular form of public transport.
The noble Lord raised the issue of the £2 fare cap. As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, observes, the money for it runs out in December. The Government are looking urgently at this to determine its future, and we will respond on it as soon as we can.
The noble Lord talked about the TfL system, which of course I am as familiar with as maybe he is, having administrated it for the best part of 15 years. He said that the fares risk is borne by TfL and questions the capacity of local authorities to deliver that. His observations about the capacity of other places in England to do this do not need to be theoretical, because the Mayor of Manchester, a combined authority, has had bus franchising in place for some time.
One of the features which distinguished it in London is being replicated in Manchester: in the last six months alone, the first tranche of franchising in Manchester has produced revenue growth of 5%. It has enabled the introduction of more buses, the service is more reliable, and a night bus service has been introduced. Those are features which occur because of the comprehensive network, its promise of stability, its consistent information, ticketing and planning, a closer interaction with traffic authorities to allow buses to progress more freely, and the introduction of real-time information. Those are all features that local authorities can deliver if they choose to go down the franchising road.
The noble Lord questions the capacity of local authorities to put in such a system. My department is building its capacity in order to give assistance on the ground to local authorities that want to proceed down this route.
On the full assessment of the impact of this policy, I have already described the interim assessment from Manchester, which is wholly good. Throughout England, in towns and cities and in the countryside, there are huge variations in the quality, volume and reliability of bus services. The Government’s suite of measures, of which the introduction of franchising is one for those local authorities that wish to take advantage of it, will stabilise things so that the quality, frequency and reliability of the bus service is more certain. That will encourage people to travel and give the bus service itself more passenger volume and revenue.
The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, supports local devolution, and this Government strongly support that too. Franchising is a measure which will be available to all local authorities. They can choose what to do in their particular circumstances. She refers to the end of temporary funding. We certainly have a keenness to amalgamate funding streams; there are several, and it would be easier for local authorities and bus companies to understand one funding stream. We would like to give certainty on multiyear funding, but that must be subject to the parlous state of public finances that this Government have inherited. She is right that giving certainty in this direction will improve the quality, frequency and reliability of bus services in Britain.
Lastly, the noble Baroness refers to young people. Greater local authority control of bus services gives the opportunity for more local authorities to give concessions to young people, where that is justified. There are already concessions for young people, but we agree that getting young people into the habit of public transport usage is extremely important.
Lord Snape (Lab)
My Lords, I apologise for leaving the depot prematurely a few moments ago.
I rarely agree with anything that the main Opposition spokesperson on transport has to say, and I notice that he glossed over the fact that hundreds of bus routes and thousands of bus miles disappeared under the previous Government’s policies. However, he does have a point as far as the financing of franchising is concerned. Does my noble friend accept from me, the former chairman of a major bus operator, that franchising outside our major cities in particular will be an expensive business, and that if franchising is to succeed, as most of us on these Benches would hope, it must be properly funded? What discussions have been held between his department and His Majesty’s Treasury to ensure that proper funding is in place?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for his contribution. I should have said in my previous remarks that this is all preliminary to a buses Bill, which will be introduced to the House in due course and cover a wider range of subjects.
This is offering a choice to local authorities. It gives them the opportunity of franchising, if they believe that it is the right thing to do. Of course, all funding is being considered in the round as part of the spending review. I cannot share details about the discussions with His Majesty’s Treasury at this stage, but, in the meantime, the department is building its capacity to provide tangible, on-the-ground support to local transport authorities that wish to take back public control of bus services. We are also working with all stakeholders to determine how the buses Bill will make franchising easier and cheaper to deliver and further reduce the barriers to its introduction.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I very much welcome my noble friend’s Statement, because it is about time that buses fulfilled their role of providing local transport for so many people. I worry about where they will get the money from and how many people will use them, if they use them to start with. As the noble Baroness said, it is important to get young people into the idea of using buses. How young is young? They need to be school kids right up to people starting their first job, who may well be in their 20s. If they live a long way from an established bus route, they will not get a job.
It is quite clear from what my noble friend said that all local authorities will be invited to do this and to participate one way or another, be it concession or franchise. But what happens if they do not want to do it? How will the Government encourage them? It is important to enable everyone who needs it to access public transport.
I have one example that I ask my noble friend to look into, although he may not be able to answer today. For those who live in the Isles of Scilly who want to go between the islands, the average fare in the winter is somewhere between £10 and £100—to get to the doctor, to the chemist or to work. It seems to me that what is good for city centres and the countryside in England could also be useful to people who live on islands. It might apply to the Isle of Wight as well, I do not know. I look forward to my noble friend’s comments.
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for his contributions. What would happen if local authorities did not want to pursue this course? The existing and partnership arrangements for bus operations, which have been in place locally for some time, would continue. It is a fair observation that there is a huge variation in standards of bus provision across Britain. If local authorities do not wish to participate or to pursue franchising, they can continue to pursue the arrangements that they currently have with their bus operators.
I cannot, of course, comment on the costs of transport between the islands of the Isles of Scilly or the minimal bus service on St Mary’s. However, as my noble friend knows, the provision in Cornwall, which is a largely rural county, is very good. That is an example of an arrangement that has been tailored to a rural area. None of these new arrangements would prevent existing arrangements from continuing.
The Lord Bishop of Manchester
My Lords, I declare an interest: I got the bus on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and today, and shall be getting it tomorrow. As I live in Greater Manchester, I have been a real beneficiary of what the previous Government allowed for franchising in my city and its surrounds. The buses have become more reliable: I can now go to a bus stop and expect a bus to turn up within 10 minutes, not 40 minutes, which I sometimes had to wait for before.
I have two questions. First, I am old enough to remember when local authorities in Greater Manchester often had joint boards. The wonderfully named Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield joint board provided buses in parts of what is now Tameside.
The Lord Bishop of Manchester
They were indeed green. I remember them very well. I wonder what the possibilities are for rural areas that are not part of a combined authority like Greater Manchester. Will local authorities have the capacity to combine together to franchise bus services jointly, rather than doing it by themselves?
Secondly, we made great progress in Greater Manchester; we got the buses and the fantastic Metrolink tram system. It would help to integrate the whole thing if we gained control of local rail services at the same time. For many people, local rail, as well as buses and trams, is necessary to make journeys. Could the Minister give any indications of plans to allow the franchisement of local rail services in places such as Greater Manchester?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
I thank the right reverend Prelate for his comments. I particularly note his support for the effects of the initial tranches of franchising in Manchester, which have indeed increased service and produced better reliability. He refers to the very old organisation of public transport in Manchester. Many of those magnificent vehicles are in the Manchester transport museum at Queens Road.
These days, the increasing number of combined authorities are of a good size to take advantage of this Government’s franchising proposition. It is, in effect, bringing together local authorities of sufficient size to be able to take advantage of the benefits of a network. I do not have an answer to whether this will allow individual local authorities to join together, but I am happy to write to the right reverend Prelate about that.
The right reverent Prelate raised the subject of the integration of rail services. We have already made a lot of progress with the Mayor of Greater Manchester, and with the Mayor of the West Midlands, in integrating rail services into the local transport network in information and in ticketing. Although this is not the subject of today’s discussion, I have no doubt that there will be some announcements on that. He is right to aspire to an integrated local network that is modally agnostic and includes rail and, in Manchester’s case, metro and buses.
Lord Hampton (CB)
My Lords, if we are going to use TfL and the London bus network as the example for going around the country, the dread problem of safety goes around again. Carrying on from the question I asked the Minister earlier this week, it often seems that in London—where, from memory, someone is killed by a bus every six weeks—the bus companies investigate their own incidents, with the DVSA checking for legalities. Who will be responsibility for safety in these franchises, and will they have teeth?
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)
One of the benefits of London’s large system of bus franchising is the work that Transport for London has done on the design and safety of bus travel. The noble Lord has to remember that those vehicles are on the road for 18, 20 or 24 hours a day, and they form a major part of the mileage of vehicles in London, even though their numbers are fairly small.
A significant amount of work has been done on the safety of driving and drivers, and on the design of vehicles. I know that has been shared with manufacturers and bus operators across the country, and with organisations such as Transport for Greater Manchester and the Urban Transport Group. I would expect more of that to happen.
The safety of buses is considered by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Authority, which is an executive arm of the Department for Transport and has the power to investigate serious bus accidents, which it does. It has the power to prosecute the drivers and operators of those vehicles. None of these proposals would alter its powers to continue to do so.