(9 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Lord Risby
To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in respect of the AUKUS agreement, the defence and security partnership between the United Kingdom, Australia and the United States.
Lord Risby (Con)
My Lords, for over a century there has been an enduring relationship between three trusting countries, Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States, all of which share embedded democratic values. In 2021, the three nations began a consultation process—particularly referencing Australia, which had been concerned by unwelcome Chinese naval activity in the Indo-Pacific region—to upgrade its submarine capability in partnership with the United Kingdom and the United States: AUKUS.
For us, our own defence thinking has extended to the Indo-Pacific, underscoring our passionate historic commitment to the freedom of the seas. A year ago, this consultation led to an agreement that Australia acquire conventionally armed nuclear-powered submarines through the trilateral partnership, which sends a clear message of our shared commitment to protecting global security and, most specifically, a secure and prosperous Indo-Pacific.
That consultation, in 2021, reflected great prescience. Since then, the world has become increasingly scarred by war and violence, such as Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, supported by his linkages to countries such as North Korea and Iran. Violence in the Middle East has once again erupted, and in the Indo-Pacific China continues to assert itself, backed by a sustained build-up of military capabilities and indeed a close relationship with Russia. It is these national linkages that present democracies with a threat to the world we live in, attempting to rewrite the rules of the international order to better suit their interests. What happens in the Euro-Atlantic clearly now reverberates in the Indo-Pacific, and vice versa. The two regions are increasingly inextricably linked.
The UK is already fully integrated into the security architecture of the Euro-Atlantic, and in recent years His Majesty’s Government have chosen to engage the nations of the Indo-Pacific with much greater commitment, as well as to integrate the UK more deeply in the region’s security, while benefiting from the economic and business opportunities offered there. So far, we have been successful with trade agreements and, of course, our membership of the CPTPP. But it is AUKUS, the technology accelerator agreement signed between the UK and two of our closest Indo-Pacific partners, Australia and the United States, which promises to have the greatest potential impact on regional and, ultimately, global security.
Through pillar 1, which is concerned with equipping Australia with nuclear-powered submarines and Britain’s next-generation undersea capabilities, the United Kingdom is ensuring that its future defence infrastructure is of the highest standard. This will allow us to continue to participate with consequential impact in upholding a world free from coercion and the use of force in both the Euro-Atlantic and Indo-Pacific. In this spirit, it also specifically involves a rotational presence in Australia of one British submarine and four American submarines. Through pillar 2, which is concerned with accelerating and deepening the development and delivery of state-of-the-art military capabilities, the UK is further ensuring that in a world so influenced by advanced technology systems, we will not fall behind key developments.
AUKUS acts as a transparent and intensively close way of enhancing our trilateral relationship. It gives Britain a chance to share in the upgrading of the capabilities of two of our close partners. It is an opportunity of a magnitude that cannot be overstated. We already have a strong relationship with the US and Australia, but AUKUS plans to better operationalise this bond and take it to further heights.
AUKUS positions itself as an initiative that goes above and beyond the vagaries of electoral cycles, and indeed it must, as the project will require sustained effort and expenditure from Governments into the 2040s. It is a firm signal that we are placing greater emphasis on each others’ geostrategic sensibilities and objectives, but also embedding a long-term step-by-step strategic commitment.
In order to maximise the functional benefits of AUKUS, it must absolutely be viewed as a national endeavour, expressed as such and be given overarching focus across all relevant parts of government. This will enable us fully to embrace the generational commitment that AUKUS demands. It is a focused effort at building a more integrated deterrence posture. This will require increasing interoperability between the three nations. This enhanced interoperability informs collaborative projects through pillar 2, such as shared approaches to the next generation of advanced weaponry—for example, hypersonic missiles. There are obvious dangers associated with countries choosing not to obey the rules of the sea, and AUKUS is the UK, Australia and the USA united in their effort to resist and if necessary push back together against such activity.
A key element to ensuring that the long-term vision of AUKUS is realised will be enhanced people-to-people, governmental and educational links between the three countries. This is already beginning to happen. Regular port visits from British submarines to Western Australia in the 2030s will also further this, and I am encouraged to learn that Royal Australian Navy representatives have begun training at British and American nuclear-powered submarine schools. Is my noble friend the Minister content that we are adequately deepening our education and workforce development systems’ link with the United States and Australia, which is key to the realisation of the agreement?
The benefits of that long-term generational partnership will not be felt just in the realm of international security but here in Britain directly. We are experiencing the impact on shipping and the British economy that Houthi attacks in the Red Sea are having. AUKUS contributes to Britain’s ability to resist and detect such activity, as well as to deter actors from disruptive action, wherever it arises.
What we know is that the nature of defence and warfare is changing dramatically, such that in pillar 2, key areas have been identified for sharing and development. Fundamentally, they are undersea capabilities, but also quantum technologies, artificial intelligence, advanced cyber, hypersonic and counter-hypersonic capabilities, electronic warfare, and innovation and information sharing.
The Minister will know of the 17 working groups that have been established. Can he indicate how their functioning is progressing? All this work to bring the pillars to fruition highlights the intensity of shared mutual trust. Indeed, the evolution of AUKUS is being watched with positive interest by New Zealand, Japan and South Korea, all of which have security concerns.
Of considerable and enduring importance, AUKUS offers a concerted attempt to integrate our top civil and private companies with our own industrial base. This will in turn stimulate the British economy by providing jobs and improving skills—a transformative boost, particularly for the local economy of Barrow-in-Furness, where the new submarines will be built. In fact, as Barrow is so pivotal to AUKUS, I must ask the Minister if he is satisfied that there is an adequate skills base there, what we are doing to upgrade it and whether the transportation system in and around Barrow is appropriate for the construction of AUKUS submarines.
The people of the United Kingdom want to live in a world free from coercion and blatant aggression. Today, this vision is under increasing pressure. We thus need bold new ideas, and to pursue them in tandem with our closest allies and partners. AUKUS is key to this. It is about investing in and with our partners, shoulder to shoulder, for the future, so that we can uphold and maintain the international order that has benefited us and many others so greatly.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, while the events in Ukraine and the Middle East have understandably engrossed the world’s attention, we have seen developments in the Indo-Pacific that signal its increasing geopolitical centrality: in 2022, China struck a security pact with the Solomon Islands; in January, Nauru switched diplomatic recognition from Taiwan to China; and, a month ago, Papua New Guinea confirmed early-stage talks with Beijing on a security and policing agreement. Post AUKUS, Chinese-driven media activity across several Pacific island nations demonstrates that China regards the agreement as a major impediment to its geopolitical ambitions, as does its concerted diplomatic pressure on smaller nations across the region.
I do not question the aims of AUKUS, but I have three questions about our approach to realising those aims and our capacity so to do. The first is about the future of submarine warfare. The last two years have seen advances in uncrewed submarine capabilities by our allies and our strategic adversaries. In Russia, the K-329 Belgorod submarines emerged—unmanned nuclear-powered submarines that purportedly offer nuclear-strike capabilities, as well as deterrence support. Last year, North Korea unveiled its first nuclear-armed unmanned submarine.
While encouraged by our own Project Cetus, I ask whether any assessment has been made of the extent, if any, that crewed, nuclear-strike submarines will have been superseded by the time Australia is building SSN-AUKUS boats. Given the rapidity of relevant technology advances, it would be useful to know if any such work has been or is likely to be commissioned.
Secondly, on our industrial capacity, can we meet our obligations under the AUKUS agreement’s optimal pathway? Each of the last Astute-class submarines under commission took around 130 months to complete. We are told that HMS “Agincourt” will commission after a 99-month build. Why does the MoD believe that we will be able to complete work on HMS “Agincourt” 31 months more rapidly than we did for the previous four submarines in the class and 13 months faster than BAE Systems has ever built an Astute?
Lastly, on the reliability of the MoD’s financial estimates, on 7 December I asked why the three services have different approaches to cost forecasting, with the Navy and RAF including predicted costs for the capabilities planned while the Army includes only what it can afford. The noble Earl the Minister said that he was in “entire agreement” on the question of consistency and conceded that in 40 years of looking at budgets he had
“never seen a budget that resembles anything like this one”.—[Official Report, 7/12/23; col. 1570.]
On top of this supervening inconsistency, we have seen the NAO describe the MoD’s equipment plan to 2033 as “unaffordable”; the MoD’s own worst-case forecast concedes a funding gap of almost £30 billion. What financial contingencies has the Minister’s department instituted or considered to ensure that we meet all our pillar 1 and 2 AUKUS obligations? Any assurance in the Minister’s answers to these questions would be extremely welcome.
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (CB)
My Lords, I refer to my register of interests: I am an honorary captain in the Royal Navy and chair of Wilton Park.
On 13 February, the Foreign Secretary broadly answered the question that we have put to ourselves today. I will return to two of the areas that he raised to pursue them further. He referred to the gain of about £4 billion-worth of contracts in generating thousands of jobs. I urge the Minister that we talk about AUKUS and job generation in a much wider context. As the noble Lord, Lord Risby, rightly said, this will be over several electoral cycles and some very difficult budget settlements; it therefore must be seen in the context of our national security and the freedom of the high seas, which is important to our prosperity.
The Foreign Secretary also referred to progress made on ITAR. He used an interesting phrase:
“a troubling issue that British Governments have had to deal with for decades with American Governments”.
He acknowledged that
“it is essential that AUKUS partners can trade freely between each other in defence equipment”.
He suggested in his answer that real progress had been made when
“President Biden signed the US National Defense Authorization Act, which enables licence-free trade between the AUKUS countries”,
but he added a note of caution by saying,
“and we are working with the State Department on the technical details to make sure that really happens”.—[Official Report, 13/2/24; col. 143.]
If, at its heart, AUKUS is a technology-accelerator agreement for the purpose of national defence, it is important for current members—and to any discussions about widening it, particularly to Japan and South Korea—that the ITAR question is satisfactorily resolved. Otherwise, we will not be able to trade freely.
I think that it is generally accepted that the current membership of AUKUS pillar 1 is unlikely to have additional partners, but when it comes to pillar 2, on advanced military technology, we might even look at countries such as Canada. I suggest that the Minister should also not forget about the importance of France as a major Indo-Pacific power.
The key issue that I want to leave the Minister with is that Bloomberg recently estimated that if there were to be a blockade on the Taiwan Strait it would cost the economy some $10 trillion. All these debates, whether on AUKUS, additional partners or technology, have to be seen in the context of free world trade, the freedom of the high seas and our collective prosperity.
Lord Walney (CB)
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Risby, for securing this debate. Momentum is crucial in AUKUS, not only because there is no time to waste in building up the capability and deterrence factor, but also because we should not assume that public and political opinion across our partner nations will remain static without clear signs of progress. It is vital that we make that progress on both pillars.
As the noble Lord, Lord Risby, rightly said, much of pillar 1 rests on the workforce. We need to get on with integrating and training across the UK and Australia in particular, which will co-operate deeply on SSN-AUKUS. What progress have the Government made in delivering specific AUKUS visas to enable workforce transfer in this regard?
Our country needs more advanced engineers, full stop. It particularly needs to be able to attract them into this specific programme. Key to that, as the noble Lord, Lord Risby, said, is building up Barrow’s capability and the nuclear capability in Derby. Both those towns need the infrastructure to attract and sustain the significant rise in numbers that will be needed. If the Minister wants to share with us what announcements will be made in the Budget next week on that, we would all be very grateful. This really is investing to save, because unless we can get the workforce up to speed, the cost overrun will dwarf anything that will be spent on the necessary infrastructure measures.
Team Barrow is doing heroic work, but a great responsibility rests on its shoulders. The engagement from the Cabinet Secretary, the Levelling-up Secretary and others is genuinely remarkable, but I hope that the Government will specifically focus on ensuring there is the institutional capacity in local institutions to deliver the economic development that is needed. The future of local enterprise partnerships remains in doubt across the country and development corporations have had difficulties. There needs to be something more in place.
Finally, the Government must ensure that pillar 2 is a concurrent commitment and not sequential. We need greater engagement with industry and we need Ministers consistently to show the public that this is an economic and security priority. Without that, we will not hope to maintain the consensus that is needed.
Lord Rogan (UUP)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Risby, on securing this timely debate. I support the AUKUS partnership with two of our strongest allies and welcome the progress made so far. However, although the United Kingdom still likes to regard itself as one of the world’s leading military powers, that claim is becoming ever more difficult to stand over, given the ongoing depletion of our Armed Forces. This is especially worrying at a time when our nation and the West face a greater threat from Russia than for many decades.
Against such a worrying backdrop, I find it astonishing that His Majesty’s Government continue to preside over such a brutal reduction in the size of the British Army. Under their watch, the Army is now a professional force of around 73,000 personnel. This compares with around 100,000 in 2010. This underlines why working in partnership with other nations is so critical for our security, although it should not be as vital as it currently is. Can the Minister tell the Committee whether there are plans to expand the AUKUS partnership beyond its current membership? The Legatum Institute has published a report recommending the integration of Canada into AUKUS pillar 2. Is this being considered?
It is obviously the case that the United States is by some distance the lead partner of the three current members, so much so that the outcome of the forthcoming US presidential election could be pivotal to the AUKUS agreement remaining in place. Can the Minister advise the Committee whether Mr Donald Trump has indicated his support for the creation of AUKUS and, more importantly, given a commitment to throw the full weight of his Administration behind it should he regain the presidency in November?
Last year, when announcing new funding to support the AUKUS programme, the Prime Minister suggested that it could create thousands of jobs in the United Kingdom. Can the Minister tell me whether any of these jobs will come to Belfast, which, as we well know, has such a long and illustrious history, both in shipbuilding at Harland & Wolff and in supplying the defence sector at Thales Air Defence Ltd, formerly Shorts Missiles Systems?
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, mentioned the situation in the South China Sea region. The Committee will know of my unwavering support for the Government of Taiwan and my determination to protect their people from the aggressive actions of the communist regime in Beijing. Given the global reach of AUKUS and the US Government’s recent welcome decision to sell arms worth $75 million to Taiwan, has it been made clear to the democratically elected representatives in Taipei that the partnership stands fully with them and against the increasingly frequent incursions of Chinese military aircraft across the median line of the Taiwan Strait into Taiwan’s northern air defence identification zone?
Similarly, we simply cannot put up with the constant straying of Chinese military vessels into Taiwanese territorial waters, with the most recent incident occurring as recently as Monday of this week, when five Chinese coastguard ships approached the frontier line in Kinmen.
Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)
My Lords, when the Foreign Secretary answered Questions on AUKUS the week before last, he was euphoric, absolutely unbounded, in his enthusiasm for the agreement. I happily agreed with him on the undoubted attractions of AUKUS. I fully understand the potential upsides, particularly to the defence industrial base, jobs and national advantage. I did not want to appear cynical, but I asked him whether there had been any slightly more cautionary voices in the relevant NSC discussion regarding AUKUS. I have to say that I felt the Foreign Secretary was politely dismissive of the risks that I raised, such as losing, or at least leaking, specially nuclear-qualified personnel to Australia and the risks of cost escalation in a programme that might rapidly become non-discretionary in nature. In opening this debate, the noble Lord, Lord Risby, spoke of sustained expenditure until at least 2040.
From the Library pack provided to inform this short debate, I also now see that, as well as the self-evident delivery risk in increasing the drumbeat of submarine production, there appears to be a significant liability for British submarines to conduct both operational tours and extended port visits to Australia throughout the long period involved in generating the Australian capability. I worry that this must surely place at risk the operational requirements, at least for what we call two-boat availability, for standing tasks in closer-to-home waters.
Therefore, I again ask the Minister: has there been any recognition or discussion of attendant risks to this agreement and how to mitigate them? Or does it now represent an irreversible commitment which might place further constraints on the future flexibility required to bring into balance defence policy aspiration and the MoD’s available funding?
One might be tempted to ask similar questions about the Global Combat Air Programme, GCAP, a parallel initiative with Japan and Italy. Let me be clear: I am a huge supporter of advanced technology but, equally, I am concerned that the continued addiction of our procurement processes to pursuing ever more exquisite capabilities risks a future defence capability programme that, because it is underfunded, is also completely unbalanced.
Lord Bilimoria (CB)
My Lords, AUKUS is an acronym for a trilateral security partnership between Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States. There are two pillars, with defence capabilities, and in the first a conventionally armed, nuclear-powered submarine fleet for Australia, supported by the UK and the USA. The second pillar is co-operation in advanced capability, including AI.
As a trustee of Policy Exchange, I can say that we coined the term “Indo-Pacific”, as opposed to “Asia-Pacific”, as it used to be referred to. With the UK’s renewed policy focus in the Indo-Pacific, this is very timely. We have just joined the CPTPP. Should we join Quad, with India, the USA, Japan and Australia? The UK joining would make it Quad Plus, and we would circle the world. With our membership of NATO and Five Eyes, our security would be enhanced. However, would the Minister not agree—I am like a stuck record—that we should be spending 3% of GDP on defence? As the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, said, our Armed Forces, the Army, Navy and Air Force, are too small in numbers of people and short of equipment—and I say that as a proud honorary group captain in 601 Squadron of the Royal Air Force.
The Prime Minister assured us last March that an additional £5 billion would be provided by the MoD for the AUKUS programme and sustained funding would be provided. The Government have also said that this would create thousands of jobs here in the UK and, of course, in Australia.
Gideon Rachman wrote an excellent article in the FT just three days ago, where he said:
“China has repeatedly attacked Aukus as dangerous and confrontational. Shortly after it was launched, Boris Johnson, Britain’s prime minister at the time, gleefully lampooned the ‘raucous squawkus from the anti-Aukus caucus’”.
Gideon Rachman concluded his article by saying:
“The pact is ultimately a statement of resolve and long-term commitment. It is based on a shared perception of the growing strategic threat from China and Russia as they work together to overturn the current international order. That perception seems more pressing and valid than ever”.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Risby, for initiating this debate and raising awareness of AUKUS, which people need to know more about. I love the way he referred to it as a technology-accelerator agreement. There is huge potential in enhancing our security and powering ahead with our innovation and research and development capabilities—all things at which this country has always been absolutely brilliant.
Lord Mountevans (CB)
My Lords, I join in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Risby, on sponsoring this important and timely debate. AUKUS is an agreement of the greatest significance, a very high-tech defence project within the non-proliferation framework. It is also a significant opportunity for Australia, Britain and the United States for employment and the development of leading-edge technology.
From all that we hear, things in general are proceeding well, but it is still very early days for AUKUS. My understanding is that there has been solid progress on where the project needs to go, but there remains a great deal of detail to be decided. I want to look at some detail on the workings between the partners.
The three countries are close allies, but there is a need for vigilance so that the opportunities and benefits are shared equally. The United States has a particular strength—an admirable strength—in defence technology. This is a very good thing. But there is a risk, and a very real one, that the tech opportunities will be taken by the United States at the expense of Australia and Britain. What steps are the Government taking to ensure that Britain and Australia benefit appropriately, as envisaged in what I believe to be the spirit and intent of the agreement? We need to be confident that the benefits are mutual.
It is intended that the UK and Australia also grow and enhance their technological, business and academic bases. The protection of IP is essential for the development of our industrial, academic and research bases. It is also vital for Britain and Australia to maintain and grow employment, especially under pillar 1. We also need to be vigilant to ensure that Britain does not end by losing skills, not least experienced Royal Navy engineers, to our very good Australian friends.
In a project of this scale and importance, it is essential that what might be termed a common information infrastructure is established, especially for the delivery of pillar 2 capabilities. We are assured that an advanced capabilities forum is in the process of being established as an essential vehicle for the exchange of information between government and industry trilaterally.
For Britain and Australia, negotiations to gain approval under the US International Traffic in Arms Regulations regime—ITAR—as outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Stuart, could inadvertently handicap broader UK exports outside of the AUKUS partners. Discussions with ITAR must be carefully handled, and with great attention.
A final point: the three nations are close allies and very good friends. The behaviour between them over the next 20 years and more will be critical to the success of AUKUS. Given its long-term nature, it is necessary to bear in mind that there will be elections in each country, very likely at different times, as pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Risby. There is a need for great tact and understanding between the partners. What thoughts does the Minister have has on this serious requirement?
Viscount Waverley (CB)
My Lords, the world has changed and it should now be defined more globally. We are approaching a crossroads and, as with the last Cold War, two well-defined camps are emerging. There was a “never again” collective relief last time around; however, a new extended cold war now appears inevitable. Deterrence, though, might become essential. This makes AUKUS timely, but it should be seen as a building block. No single alliance is what is required, but rather a multiple.
We and the European Union, together with those with similar values, must become more brutal in our mindset and prepare in haste for a series of defence and security hubs to act for the common good. With nuclear proliferation and the fear of using those arms potentially dissipating—I come from a school of thought subscribing to the view that nuclear arms are more a form of blackmail—and with the current make-up of the UN Security Council not allowing it to do what it was constructed to do, there is an immediate need for NATO and Five Eyes collectively to create a tight command structure to thwart those who wish us ill. EU and US leaders present and future, together, I suggest, with the inclusion of Canada in the Five Eyes network, should collectively see this as a priority, with the clear participation of India to be encouraged in one form or another.
The adage “Out of area, out of business” has relevance now, as it did when a past NATO Secretary-General observed succinctly the West’s necessity
“to deal collectively with the multiplying threats and instabilities of this new era”.
Sanity and pragmatism are critical for these new times. Sabre-rattling should not automatically be perceived as a slow drumbeat to war, however; only strength will ensure a safer and more coherent world.
I conclude with three observations. First, China has a longer-term play than being a participant in war; secondly, beware Russia and the GIUK gap, which, together with the Arctic northern sea route, can play a strategic and deceptive role; thirdly but importantly, we should urgently build the network and invest in those countries with which we and others have had an historical association. Failure to do so makes them a soft target.
Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)
My Lords, I draw attention to my shareholdings as in the register, particularly in the Potteries-based Goodwin plc, which is a major supplier of castings to the US and UK submarine programmes.
Parallel to AUKUS Australia is, pleasingly, spending $7.25 billion to increase its number of combat vessels from 11 to 26. It intends shortly to sign a “very significant” defence co-operation agreement with Indonesia. Is the Minister aware of this and could he comment?
Perhaps the Minister could also comment on the capacity of Barrow, its expansion physically and the workforce there. Our submarine-building programme has been characterised by cost and time overruns. Have any comparisons been made with the United States, in the sense that there are possible lessons to be learned? Can he also tell us what the current manning level of our existing submarines is, and are there any plans to increase the number of submariners?
Is there a concern that a percentage of the workforce in Barrow may well emigrate to Australia? No doubt, Barrow has many attractions, but Australia is of course somewhat warmer. How many Australian military and civilians are embedded with the Royal Navy or are on any sites? Pillar 2 talks of deep space advanced radar capability. Are there going to be any new United Kingdom radar sites?
Finally, Goodwin raised two matters with me. First, the United States orders submarines in blocks and is in the process of procuring materials and components for the next 17 under one purchase order, with obvious savings. The United Kingdom, Goodwin tells me, tends to purchase for each boat separately. Larger and longer purchase orders for AUKUS would be beneficial. Secondly, forgings are mission-critical to submarine construction. United Kingdom forging suppliers are buying ingots from eastern Europe, with obvious negative implications. Goodwin tells me that can supply ingots here. Perhaps the Minister can look into this United Kingdom opportunity.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, I refer your Lordships to my entry in the register of interests and specifically to my roles with the Royal Navy. I join all noble Lords present in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Risby, on securing such an important and timely debate.
The world has changed beyond all recognition in the past decade. When I was elected to the other place, there was little discussion of the potential threat posed by China. It was the height of the golden era of Sino-British relations under the then Prime Minister, now the noble Lord, Lord Cameron. Inquiries by the Defence Select Committee, of which I was a member, into the strategic importance of the South China Sea were broadly ignored. The world has moved on, as have our relations with China. The Indo-Pacific is now a core operating environment and our relations with key allies throughout it are a cornerstone of our mutual security.
In that context, His Majesty’s Opposition of course support the AUKUS alliance and consider the security pact to be a welcome formalisation and deepening of the relationship with two of our strongest allies. That does not mean that we do not have some questions for the Minister, however.
The delivery of both pillars of AUKUS requires us to consider this not as a defence programme but as a national endeavour, as the noble Lord, Lord Risby, highlighted. On pillar 1, the Labour Party strongly welcomes the announcement of the SSN-AUKUS collaboration. We want these boats to be built in the UK. We want to see new infrastructure at Barrow and a multigenerational commitment to and investment in the next generation of SSNs. For our part, a future Government will build on our Indo-Pacific commitments through UK technology, capability, diplomacy and closer defence industrial co-operation. We will strive to make the potential of both pillars of AUKUS a reality.
To reassure the noble Lord, Lord Walney, a future Labour Government will build the next generation of AUKUS nuclear-powered submarines in Barrow, and we consider the UK-Australia-US security pact at the heart of AUKUS to be above party-political consideration. Our national security is not a matter for party politics. However, we need assurances from the Government that they are doing the groundwork now in order to deliver the promise of AUKUS. Can the Minister therefore answer the following questions?
Responses to several Parliamentary Questions in the other place have made it clear that clarity is lacking on who in the department has responsibility for AUKUS, and that only a part-time SRO is dedicated to the project. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that there is clear leadership and sufficient resources for the successful delivery of this programme? On pillar 2, what capabilities are the Government prioritising in order to deliver innovation to our UK Armed Forces, alongside our AUKUS allies, as part of this programme? At the moment, pillar 2 seems to lack clarity and direction. Can the Minister assist noble Lords and begin to put flesh on the bones? Given the long-term commitment to AUKUS pillar 1, will the Minister set out how he intends to ensure that the UK defence industry has the skills it needs to deliver the AUKUS submarines on schedule, especially given current programme delays?
AUKUS is an incredibly important part of the next phase of our national security, complementing our NATO commitments and building on Five Eyes. Our job now is to make it work.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)
My Lords, I too am grateful to my noble friend Lord Risby for initiating this debate and to all noble Lords for their constructive and extremely thoughtful contributions. It is fair to say that I have never been asked more questions in such a short period, so I will be doing quite a lot of writing. However, I hope to pick them all up either now or through answering some of the more specific ones.
It is indeed two and a half years since we launched the AUKUS defence and security partnership to bolster global security alongside our equal American and Australian allies. Since then, the challenges to address have become more acute. Putin has brought war to Europe, tensions have heightened in the Indo-Pacific, and terrorism and violence have been unleashed in the Middle East. Military coups have toppled Governments across the Sahel and the Houthis are holding global trade hostage in the Red Sea. Each of these global security setbacks magnifies the need to advance our military capabilities through partnerships such as AUKUS. This is about much more than building the next generation of submarines and other capabilities. It is also about establishing a more sustainable industrial base and developing the skills for the future. With that in mind, I will provide an update on the progress we have made on the various AUKUS workstreams and I will try to address the questions raised by the noble Lords.
First, AUKUS pillar 1 is our commitment to help Australia develop a conventionally armed nuclear-powered submarine capability. Last March, AUKUS leaders announced that this new platform would be based on designs for the UK’s next-generation submarine that will replace our current Astute class. They will incorporate cutting-edge US technologies and will be the largest, most advanced and most powerful attack submarines ever operated by the Royal Navy. They will enhance our capability to operate in the north Atlantic and will further our objectives around the world. They will be built in Australia and the UK and will enter service with the Royal Navy in the late 2030s, and with the Royal Australian Navy in the late 2040s. This phased delivery will enable us to work together to build up the facilities, skills and experience needed for all partners to operate the vessels both safely and securely.
I was delighted to see the Australian high commissioner and his deputy earlier this week. We had a very positive, enthusiastic conversation about precisely this point on skills, training and experience. The opportunity of working ever more closely together on this critical task, developing joint skills and sustainable employment for decades to come across all three nations should be rightly celebrated, and that work is well under way.
The Government have committed an additional £5 billion up to 2025 to modernise the UK’s nuclear enterprise and fund the next phase of the AUKUS submarine programme. It is obviously very difficult, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, rightly knows, to budget very accurately when we are talking about 2030, which is years ahead. However, the determination is there to ensure that the procurement process is both accurate and timely.
AUKUS partners BAE, Babcock and Rolls-Royce have already been awarded contracts worth £4 billion to procure long-lead components for the submarines. This will support thousands of highly skilled jobs in the UK, particularly in Barrow, where the UK’s submarines will be constructed, and at the Rolls-Royce Raynesway site in Derby, which will double in size to manufacture all the reactors for the UK and Australian subs, creating around 1,100 new jobs. We have also accelerated nuclear co-operation and training between AUKUS partners, offering enhanced opportunities for Australian sailors to train in the UK and the US, including on non-nuclear submarines, and we have committed to more planned visits to the US and nuclear-powered submarines to Australia.
On pillar 2, although the media spotlight has shone brightest on our submarine collaborations under pillar 1, AUKUS has always been about a much broader range of defence and industrial collaboration under pillar 2. From better information and technology sharing to new cutting-edge joint capabilities and more seamless interoperability, as well as strengthening the resilience of our defence sectors, these objectives were centre stage at the AUKUS defence ministerial meeting in December, where Ministers announced new pillar 2 capability programmes on AI, autonomous systems, threat detection, undersea warfare, quantum technologies and cybersecurity, as well as a separate deep space advanced radar programme and a programme of industrial engagement. We are making steady progress with many of these capabilities and, wherever possible, we will continue to be transparent and provide updates as we reach important milestones or embark on new endeavours.
Our ambition to deliver nuclear-powered submarines for Australia will remain trilateral. However, as our work progresses on AUKUS advanced capabilities—pillar 2—and other critical defence and security capabilities, we are open to engaging with allies and close partners. Defence Ministers also announced new future combined exercises, including a joint exercise in the autumn of 2024 off the east coast of Australia to test new equipment to protect critical underwater infrastructure, including autonomous systems. Joint exercises such as this improve our ability to work together and enhance the development of new capabilities.
My noble friend Lord Risby is absolutely right to raise the important function of the AUKUS working groups, which continue to progress the ambition set out in December by Defence Ministers. I am also grateful to him for highlighting the pivotal role that Barrow will play as a home of UK submarine-building. The Government have committed £5 million to support the long-term delivery board for Barrow and are working in close co-operation with Westmorland and Furness Council and BAE Systems to develop that community. With the infrastructure to support this ambition, it should be a thriving place for people to work and live. That includes local transportation and other community projects.
Critical to the success of AUKUS and the strength of the partnership is our ability to forge deeper and more seamless ties between our nations right across the defence sector, so we were delighted that Congress recently passed legislation to establish an AUKUS nations exemption to the International Traffic in Arms Regulations—ITAR—for the UK and Australia. I understand some of the concerns about the small print of this, but the principle having been taken is a very significant step in the right direction.
Closer collaboration and exchanges between our businesses and experts will drive innovation, enable us to make the most of emerging technologies and provide an opportunity for UK defence companies to turbocharge exports. To further grease the wheels of innovation and trade, we have established the advanced capabilities industry forum and will shortly publish the first AUKUS innovation challenge, deepening those crucial links between our three systems to ensure we support the development of skills fit for the future workforce.
Lord Bilimoria (CB)
I thank the Minister for giving way. He just mentioned the AUKUS advanced capabilities industry forum and collaboration with trade and industry. That is absolutely spot on, but no one mentions working with universities. Is there not huge potential for the AUKUS programme, in the USA, Australia and here in the UK, to work with our world-class universities to turbocharge this programme? I am chancellor of the University of Birmingham, which last week won a Queen’s Anniversary Prize at Buckingham Palace for its work with Rolls-Royce on aero-engines. It is so powerful. Should we not be promoting this more?
The Earl of Minto (Con)
I could not agree more. Rolls-Royce is in the process of doubling its graduate intake between 2022 and 2025, and taking on an enormous number of apprentices over the next 10 years to ensure that we build up this capability of proper, genuine, well-paid and highly skilled jobs for life—exactly the sort of thing that the noble Lord refers to.
Alongside our AUKUS partners, we have also committed to co-operate on the deep space advanced radar capability programme. Although DARC is not part of AUKUS as a result of the particular nature of regulatory requirements covering space-related technologies, it is a clear benefit from the closer trilateral working relationship that we have forged through our AUKUS partnership. That shows the breadth of thinking that AUKUS is projecting.
A couple of noble Lords raised our non-proliferation obligations. As part of the AUKUS programme, we have engaged extensively with the International Atomic Energy Agency, as noble Lords would expect. The UK, the US and Australia are fully committed to an approach that protects classified information and strengthens the global regime.
On the question of other strategic allies in the Indo-Pacific, such as Canada, Japan or indeed South Korea, which was mentioned, we already enjoy close defence relationships.
On exchanges, we currently have three Australian officers embedded in the Royal Navy submarine officer nuclear training pipeline and two Royal Australian Navy personnel embedded in the Submarine Delivery Agency in the Defence Nuclear Organisation. An advanced verification team formed of experts from all three partner countries visited Pearl Harbour and Faslane last year to build our understanding of the maintenance and industrial skills required to maintain nuclear submarines.
I shall just go through some of the specific questions. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked about costs and contingencies. In addition to the £3 billion extra provided to our Defence Nuclear Organisation, I confirm that there will be sustained funding to support the AUKUS programme over the next decade. It will be a process of iteration but the commitment is absolutely there.
Can we really build submarines faster than ever before? We have a commitment from our industrial partners and confidence in that. Rolls-Royce is producing the reactors and we have invested billions of pounds in both Barrow and Derby. As I said, we have committed to more than 1,000 new jobs already.
It is better that I write to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, about our assessment of uncrewed submarines.
At this time, it is not for me to comment on President Trump and the presidential candidates’ views. At the moment, all three parties are confident of the longevity of the tripartite agreement.
On the question of jobs in Belfast, there is indeed a very proud tradition and industrial past of shipbuilding in Northern Ireland and across the UK. I take the point: Barrow-in-Furness has the licence and capability to build the submarines, but I am certain that there will be a lot of SME opportunity that includes Northern Ireland. In fact, we will ensure that it does.
In closing, I express my gratitude once again to my noble friend Lord Risby for initiating this important debate on AUKUS. Our national defences have always been dependent on the strength of our resolve, the quality of our people and capabilities, and the power of our alliances. In our more dangerous world, the AUKUS partnership is strengthening all three of these elements. Our adversaries may be aligning but, through AUKUS, the UK, the US and Australia have become ever more connected, prepared and lethal. AUKUS is a partnership building bridges across the Atlantic and the Pacific. It is a partnership for the future that, I hope, will keep us safe for generations to come.