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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Eddie Hughes)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees, but more importantly, it is a pleasure to see you not just at 6 o’clock in the morning at the gym, which is where I am more used to seeing you.
Eddie Hughes
My apologies, Ms Rees.
I thank the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) for securing the debate. We may be few in number in Westminster Hall, given that other important things are going on in the Chamber, but we are all committed to the cause. Generally, this has been a largely unpolitical debate—sometimes the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) and the SNP draw us more towards the political element of the discussion, but perhaps that is no surprise. It feels to me that in this room we have a bunch of people who are committed to this cause, regardless of political affiliation. That is a nice place to be.
We have half an hour, and although it is not my intention to use all that time, a slightly less formal approach might be warranted in the discussion. For example, the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon mentioned Aspire in her opening speech. One of the things I find critical in my role is that we do not make services and do things to people, we do things with them, and an important part of that is to speak to those people who have experience of the rough sleeping system. I believe 30% of Aspire staff are in that position. It is incredibly important that it is not just a bunch of civil servants or MPs in London creating the policies, but that we are making sure that we take account of the people on the ground who know what they are talking about.
On the issue of support at a time that works, as a Minister, during the summer I had the opportunity to go out and about round the country, and I went to Fairmount Lodge in Shipley. Through the rough sleeping accommodation programme, a building that was originally built in the early 1900s is now converted into one-bedroom and two-bedroom flats, and co-located in the building is the local support service, so that people can access care at the time they need it. There is a concierge on site 24 hours a day, to protect the flow in and out of the building so that inappropriate people are not coming in. Care and support is brought into the site from other groups, such as drug and alcohol abuse support organisations, so we are not sending people out to appointments that we expect them to attend all the time.
Members have mentioned the “Everyone In” programme, which provided, for example, the opportunity to make sure that people saw dentists or GPs for the first time. We held events where I have been joined by, for example, the vaccine Minister. Some people said it was the first time they had seen Health and rough sleeping Ministers attending meetings together. Let us hope that in the future we develop the appreciation that homelessness and rough sleeping are about not just the absence of a home, but the health requirements that go with that.
Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op)
Not far from Shipley, in Leeds, St George’s Crypt provides crisis accommodation for people rough sleeping and has built a number of houses on a similar model, providing wraparound services. The houses are low carbon. It has been able to get assistance from the social investment sector. What more can be done to provide asset funding to organisations to build this sort of housing to move people on from rough sleeping into that type of accommodation?
Eddie Hughes
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. That sounds like an innovative method of providing houses. We have our flagship rough sleeping accommodation programme, with the intention to provide up to 6,000 new homes by the end of this Parliament. Significant progress has already been made. The programme is not simply providing the capital for the homes and the fabric of the buildings, but the support that I think we have all recognised is so important. We would be kidding ourselves if we were to expect people who have previously had chaotic lifestyles to immediately sustain a tenancy.
Several Members have mentioned Housing First. The hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury) mentioned graciously the various Mayors who have been involved in the programme. I was delighted when Andy Street became Mayor, as the first thing he did was to convene people to address homelessness and rough sleeping in the west midlands. At the time, I was working for YMCA Birmingham, a charity supporting previously homeless young people. It seemed like a really emblematic moment for him to take that lead. This is not a political point. Andy Burnham has also done incredible work—not least, I am sure, because his campaign had the political support of the hon. Member for Weaver Vale to help secure that position in the first place. To push the non-partisan theme, I am hoping to meet up with Andy Burnham at the Conservative party conference, of all places, to discuss how we might continue to work together.
However, the Housing First scheme is not perfect. While I am a keen, enthusiastic supporter, I would not like it to be held up as a completely perfect scheme. For example, there were reservations from some housing associations over committing property to the scheme. Subsequently, now that some have engaged and seen how the scheme works, I think they are warming to it and, after that initial delay, are coming forward with more properties. As it is a housing-led project, it obviously needs to ensure that it has the homes before it can put people in them and provide them with support.
Through things like a combination of the rough sleeping accommodation programme and the rough sleeping initiative, we get a good element of the same sort of principle. I fully appreciate that keen advocates of Housing First will talk about fidelity—the purism of its approach—but we can still achieve giving somebody a home and providing them with support.
Layla Moran
On the rough sleeping initiative, I would seek a point of clarification, and I think that many council officers would also be desperate for a clear answer on this. Councils received letters from the Government saying that, because of the rough sleeping initiative, they should end all “Everyone In” programmes, and, in particular, the use of hotels. Meanwhile, they have heard elsewhere from Government that the “Everyone In” scheme is still ongoing.
That has caused huge amounts of confusion, not least in my own area in Oxford, and other councils have also contacted me, desperate for an answer. My question is: has “Everyone In” now stopped completely, or are councils still allowed to use money to put people in hotels, or was that letter not saying the right thing?
Eddie Hughes
I would say that “Everyone In” continues; we still have people who are in emergency accommodation. However, we also need to appreciate that “Everyone In” is not a sustainable approach. It was fantastic that, during the height of a pandemic, we were able to move people into emergency accommodation, but the type of accommodation that many of those people were moved into is, by its very nature, not something we would expect people to stay in for a sustained period.
I make no apology for constantly referring to my time with YMCA, but we would have had a range of accommodation. With off-the-street accommodation, we had a 72-bed hostel, but would then move people through a system where they were supported in accommodation until, eventually, they were in a position to perhaps gain employment and support a tenancy on their own.
We still have people in emergency accommodation; I do not think that councils will be pressured to get people out because, for some reason, it is coming to an end. The pressuring we are doing over moving people on is around moving them to more stable, permanent accommodation, which is appropriate to their needs.
Layla Moran
The problem with the step process, though, is that those people who do not want to go into a hostel do not get on to that first step, and therefore remain on the street. In light of that, what steps can the Minister take to try to encourage local authorities—or even provide for local authorities—to release housing for Housing First?
Eddie Hughes
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention, but I would suggest that the question is slightly more nuanced. If, for the sake of argument, I was running a hostel that people did not want to come into, I would be questioning why that was the case. As I have moved around the country, I have seen excellent examples of accommodation which people feel is safer, more secure and more appropriate than sleeping on the street. If the hon. Lady has examples of hostels where she thinks that people do not feel that degree of comfort, I would be happy to work with her and look at that with my team. We should be ensuring that all accommodation of this type, for particularly vulnerable people, is appropriate.
To run through some of the other things the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon said regarding scrapping the Vagrancy Act, my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster reminded us what the Secretary of State said previously: we do have quite a busy legislative programme. It is almost amusing to me that it feels like we have barely had the previous Queen’s Speech, and already the hon. Member for Weaver Vale is talking about the next one. We have reviewed the Act, and are considering what action to take. We do not want to get rid of an Act and find that there is an unintended consequence; some useful element that we have thrown in the bin, but which we in this room would not be keen on losing.
With regards to long-term funding: the upcoming spending review is something way above my pay grade. However, it is something that I am contributing to as somebody who has experienced the vagaries of waiting for funding settlements in order to employ staff, and, unfortunately, as someone who has even had staff leave because they felt their position was insecure. We would all accept that, like the rest of us, the Chancellor has been through a pretty dramatic 18 months. We are moving into a more settled position thanks to the success of the vaccine rollout, and the economy seems to be getting back on its feet. Hopefully, the Chancellor feels suitably reassured and is able to give us a couple of years’ funding to provide that certainty.
With regards to a refreshed strategy, I am delighted to have spent a considerable amount of time discussing with Ministers in other Departments what they need to contribute to help us reach the ambition of ending rough sleeping during the lifetime of this Parliament. We have seen some fantastic schemes, such as work done with the Ministry of Justice on the accommodation and settlement of prisoners when they come out of prison—a very delicate time to ensure that they do not automatically reoffend and go back in.
Patricia Gibson
In the interests of working together and learning from one another—which is very important on an issue like this—regarding the Minister’s understandable comments about the unintended consequences of the abolition of the Vagrancy Act, he may wish to look at the Scottish example. This Act has been abolished in Scotland for decades. He may wish to look at how that has worked, and see if it can be applied to England.
Eddie Hughes
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. Under no circumstances do this Government have a monopoly on good ideas, so I will be happy to have a look at that.
Rachael Maskell
The Minister has raised the issue of people leaving the criminal justice system. I have been particularly concerned that many of the reasons why women, in particular, end up in the criminal justice system are due to the fact that they have been exploited on the streets, and they do not have a safe base. Within his programme, would he look at some of those issues so that we see a more preventive programme in place to protect women?
Eddie Hughes
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. I have had some discussions with the former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), on this subject. It is a theme that I will continue to come back to.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Sally-Ann Hart) touched on a theme that is incredibly important: it is not just about the Government doing stuff. There are an awful lot of organisations in this field—sometimes they are almost bumping into one another. The idea that she might convene those people to secure a collective aim, so that they are all working together efficiently and effectively, is an incredibly important one. She also touched on the problems of family and relationship breakdown; one of the areas for which I am responsible as a Minister is the Supporting Families programme, for which I am an incredible enthusiast and advocate. During the summer I have seen councils putting that programme into action across the country. Early interventions to support people who are experiencing multiple difficulties, trying to ensure that the family stays stable, provide an incredibly important contribution.
Going back to York Central, the charities there are outstanding. Having worked for one, I fully appreciate the work they do, and I admire and respect the work that the hon. Member for York Central does in this field. We have seen some incredible work, such as the transformation fund, which is money we have given to charities so they can transform their provision. It sometimes seems to be the most efficient spend, because for small charities, every pound counts, so when they get some money from the Government they make sure they spend it effectively. Amen to the charity field.
I am looking forward to going out for a walk around the streets with my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster, or “TwoCitiesNickie” as I think of her because of her Twitter handle, although I appreciate that is inappropriate here. We will be going out to have a look around. Strangely, I thought I completely understood the rough sleeping sector and those who provided support, but my view was from the west midlands. Then I came down to London. My hon. Friend represents an area that has three times as many rough sleepers as the next two boroughs in the list. That gives us a keen appreciation of the problem. It has been a real pleasure for me to benefit from her experience and to visit organisations such as the Passage with her to see the excellent work that they do. I am looking forward to going out with her next week at night for a look around so that I can understand first-hand the service provision available.
I am very happy to learn from whatever is going on in Scotland. It is great to hear about the success that there has been—prevention is key, clearly. I want to touch on a couple of points that the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran mentioned. No recourse to public funds sometimes can be a catch-all phrase that does not apply to the people we are talking about. During the summer I visited other organisations, and saw people in London, for example, who employ their own solicitor to help people regularise their immigration status and then secure funds. I appreciate that sometimes navigating that system is not easy—it is complex, which is why the Home Office is offering surgeries to help people navigate their way through what can be a very difficult process. I would also make a minor political point: sometimes, it is impossible for us to regularise people’s immigration status, and sometimes they do not have the support networks they would need in this country, so helping them to reconnect with family and friends in their country of origin is an appropriate solution to the problem, and we have done that in some cases.
I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate today. It has felt warm and non-partisan, and I am sure our collective discussions will continue in the months and years ahead. With regard to the point made during the opening speech about this Government’s commitment to end rough sleeping, it is clearly absolute. We are committing significant resources to it and working incredibly hard, with experts and councils and councillors up and down the country. I think that our collective effort will help us to achieve that goal.