The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con) [V]
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for their constructive remarks and will seek to address their specific questions. I also acknowledge that we have received support from the main Opposition Benches for what the noble Baroness describes as the first step on sanctions.
Addressing some of the issues, I must admit that I was a tad disappointed by the response from the noble Lord, Lord Collins, about the speed with which these sanctions have come about. I remind noble Lords that it was only a short while ago that we brought in the structure of the global human rights sanctions regime, and this is another example of taking it forward. Well over 70 people have now been sanctioned under that regime, and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Collins, will acknowledge that we have acted. That we acted in conjunction with our allies yesterday again shows strong co-operation and the necessity of gathering evidence and ensuring that sanctions imposed on individuals—and an organisation is included in this case—are based on evidence and the facts presented to ensure that they are robust to any challenge that may be made against them.
The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, referred to the Trade Bill being discussed in the other place yesterday and this coincided with that. I am sure that she will reflect on how we were co-ordinating with other allies and how this falls at a time when both Houses are focused on the importance of our future relationship with countries. It is also entirely appropriate that we have introduced these sanctions regimes in co-ordination with our key partners, as the noble Baroness and the noble Lord both acknowledged.
The noble Baroness asked about the absence of other Five Eyes partners, aside from Canada, the US and us. As she would acknowledge, that is because they do not yet have a global human rights sanctions regime, but we are very much co-ordinating our actions with key partners. It is worth while recognising that, when we include all the EU partners, as well as the United States and Canada, 30 countries are acting together and in co-ordination on sanctions. There was some discrepancy or difference between the sanctions—the US had moved forward on sanctioning some named individuals earlier—but we now have a coming together and consistency between all key allies in this respect.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about the Trade Bill, which is returning to your Lordships’ House. Without stealing from any of the debate that will follow, I fully acknowledge the strong sentiments that we have seen over the last weeks and months. I pay tribute particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for bringing to the fore the importance of human rights in our work representing the United Kingdom’s interests abroad. Through both Houses working together, we have seen a move forward and acknowledgement from the Government to accept many of the points that have been raised. I believe that what is coming to your Lordships’ House reflects how the Government have listened to the strong sentiments, expressions and views that have been expressed on these important issues in both Houses.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about our relationship with China, going forward, and the comments of my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary. I reiterate that China has an important role to play on the world stage in resolving conflicts. It is equally important that China has a role in the major issues that confront us, including climate change. On any future trading relationship, we have acknowledged previously and acknowledge again that we do not turn a blind eye to human rights abuses. I stand by my right honourable friend when he described the situation of the Uighurs in Xinjiang and their desperate plight, as I am sure all noble Lords would acknowledge. Today we see the next step in ensuring that we continue to profile this abuse and, at the same time, are seen to take actions against its perpetrators within Xinjiang.
The noble Baroness specifically asked about the trade deal with Cambodia. I will write to her on that, if I may. We put a specific human rights lens as we formulate and announce all new trade deals to ensure that it is part and parcel of our thinking and planning. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, referred to the Modern Slavery Act, on which we have already seen announcements from the Government. Indeed, in January, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary announced new measures on issues around the supply chain. There are also further discussions taking place with the Home Office on the penalties that will be employed against those who do not adhere to the forthcoming regulations. I am sure that your Lordships’ House will be updated in due course, as we bring forward further detail on these measures.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, also talked about the lack of co-ordinated activity in this respect. I challenge that directly, as the Minister responsible for both the United Nations and human rights. Let us not forget that the United Kingdom first raised this in a multilateral forum, and that was just shy of two years ago. We have seen steady support for the United Kingdom working with key partners to ensure that there are now more than 39 countries, and growing, which now speak strongly and specifically on the important issues of the abuse incurred by the Uighur community in Xinjiang. It shows the strength of UK diplomacy that we have continued to raise this issue at the UN Third Committee and have raised it consistently at the Human Rights Council.
The noble Lord referred to the various resolutions that have passed. Today, we passed a new resolution on Sri Lanka, which I am sure that many noble Lords will welcome. At the same time, the issue of China, in the context of both Hong Kong and Xinjiang, was very much part and parcel of my right honourable friend’s contribution to the Human Rights Council.
I pick up the point on corruption sanctions that was rightly raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. I have used this phrase before in the context of these sanctions, but we are working through this specific framework. They are very high on our agenda and we hope to come to your Lordships’ House and the other place, in the near future, on the framework to widen the scope of the sanctions regime.
I assure all noble Lords that we will continue to engage proactively on this issue, because I know it carries great strength of views, which are expressed in your Lordships’ House and which I greatly value, particularly in my capacity as Human Rights Minister. We will continue to work constructively and engage with noble Lords when these issues arise in the Chamber and, as we have done previously, by proactively updating them on developments.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)
We now come to the 20 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers are brief so that I can call the maximum number of speakers.
Lord Polak (Con)
My Lords, as a result of coronavirus, the world, in so many ways, is upside down. Yesterday in the other place 29 Members from my party voted for the genocide amendment and were called “rebels”, including a former leader and a former Foreign Secretary. They are not rebels; they are righteous heroes. As Elie Wiesel said,
“We must take sides … Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.”
In this Statement, the Foreign Secretary’s words that,
“The suffering of the Uyghur Muslims in Xinjiang cannot be ignored”
are welcome, and he was right to begin to impose sanctions. But I ask my noble friend the Minister whether the Government will continue to ask for unfettered access to Xinjiang, and whether he agrees that there is an urgent need to establish mechanisms to collect and preserve the evidence of the atrocities, which the Foreign Secretary described as
“one of the worst human rights crises of our time.”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]
[Inaudible]—and also his own work in this respect. As I have already mentioned, I align myself with and recognise the strong sentiments of and the incredible role played by many in your Lordships’ House, and in the other place, on all sides of the two Chambers, in ensuring that we move forward in a constructive way on the important issue of the continuing suffering of the Uighur people. I fully acknowledge and respect the important contributions and role of Members in the other place, as well as your Lordships, in this respect.
On the specific point that my noble friend, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, raised on ensuring that unfettered access should be guaranteed, I absolutely agree; we are calling for that for Michelle Bachelet, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. On the specific issue of accountability and justice for those committing these crimes, I am sure my noble friend has noted the statement that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary made jointly with the US Secretary of State and the Canadian Foreign Minister in this respect.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s Statement and its repetition here today by the Minister. In thanking him, and the Foreign Secretary, for the role that they have played in making a reality of these Magnitsky sanctions, I endorse everything that the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Polak, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, have said. I have two questions for the Minister. First, higher up the food chain are people like Chen Quanguo, who has been responsible for giving the orders in Xinjiang against the Uighurs. Can the Minister, without going into individual cases, at least assure us that just because people are higher up the food chain, they will not avoid these Magnitsky sanctions in the future? Secondly, returning to the point made by the noble Baroness about pathways to determining genocide, can the Minister at least assure us that if he believed there to be convincing evidence of a genocide under way, in Xinjiang or anywhere else, he would not be in favour of continuing trade with a country complicit in genocide?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]
My Lords, on the noble Lord’s second point, the United Kingdom has been seen to be taking action against anyone, or any country, that is found to be engaging in genocide following a judicial process, and, indeed, even where genocide has not been declared by a legal court. A good example is the suspension of trading relationships and other agreements. In answering the noble Lord’s first question, I also recognise that, yes, the United Kingdom does ensure that we produce a robust evidence base. As was seen recently with the situation in Myanmar, there have been occasions where we have taken action directly against people such as those leading the coup in that country.
Lord Triesman (Lab) [V]
My Lords, speaking about the Uighur Muslims, the Foreign Secretary described the evidence of human rights abuses as clear and corroborated, as we have heard, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and my noble friend Lord Collins described the various ways in which that is true. In summary, Mr Raab himself described it as
“egregious, industrial-scale human rights abuses”.
I greatly respect the Minister, but I wonder whether he might not reflect that he has been a little complacent about the speed at which we have used Magnitsky sanctions, and that we have missed a number of opportunities to co-operate internationally. If the Government are resistant to using the word “genocide”, will the Minister at least confirm that he can use the expression that is used at the UN, that there are “crimes of concern to humanity” and “crimes against humanity”? If he can, will he confirm the good sense of amending the Trade Bill to make sure that those who benefit from such crimes will not do so by having trade opportunities in their hands?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]
[Inaudible]—on a lighter note, I am always conscious that, when in an opening line “great respect” is expressed for the Minister, what will follow thereafter is a reflection of a challenge, and that has been proven correct today. Of course, I take on board what the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, has said. The Trade Bill will be up for discussion in your Lordships’ House today and I look forward to that. On the issue of complacency, I will challenge the noble Lord; I am afraid, on this occasion, I cannot agree with him. We have seen a structured approach to the new regime being introduced; we have close to 76 people, I believe, who have been sanctioned as part of this, and it is right and important that we acted once we had the evidence. But it is also right, as the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, acknowledged, that we act in conjunction with our key partners, because acting together shows the strength of the international community in the face of the continued human rights abuses we are seeing in Xinjiang.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, the joint UK-China communiqué on the occasion of President Xi addressing both Houses of Parliament in 2015 highlighted seven co-operation agreements, strategic partnership agreements and joint alliances covering preferential trading terms and UK market access—not available to many other countries. Given the horrors we now know of, how many of these preferential trading agreements have been suspended?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]
[Inaudible]—in respect of what the noble Lord asks, I will write to him. I also acknowledge that, while these agreements were signed in 2015, the international community was alerted to the situation that we see emerging in Xinjiang only in 2016. But on the specifics, I will write to the noble Lord.
Baroness Warsi (Con) [V]
My Lords, noble Lords across the House acknowledged the Government’s work on this issue, particularly the work of my noble friend the Minister. We were of course one of the first countries to raise the Uighur issue at the UN two years ago, and my noble friend has led and built a strong coalition. I ask him what the next steps are for Her Majesty’s Government—what ties need to be built, and how? Why, in light of my noble friend’s sincere commitment to this issue, which is in no doubt, are the Government unable to hear the strength and breadth of the coalition standing behind the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, in this place, and my honourable friend the Member for Wealden in the other place? What is stopping the Government supporting and adopting these amendments?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]
On my noble friend’s second point, I have already acknowledged the important work that has been done in both Houses in this respect. The Government’s amendment reflects those sentiments quite specifically, and I am sure that there will be further debates in your Lordships’ House on that. In thanking my noble friend for her remarks, in terms of the next steps on building alliances, there is a major area that we need to work on, and that is the lack of condemnation of what we have seen in Xinjiang among the Muslim countries of the world—the Islamic countries. Therein lies a challenge for all of us within the existing alliance, to ensure that we strengthen our partnerships with the OIC, and other specifically bilateral ties, to ensure that we see Muslim countries speaking out against the suffering of over 1 million Muslims in China.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, I welcome the repeat of the Statement and the Government’s positive move to apply Magnitsky sanctions to principal actors, but I note that there was no reference to genocide, even though there is credible evidence of systematic repression, imprisonment, gang rape, torture, forced sterilisation and the suppression of the Uighur language and culture. Does the Minister agree that putting all this horrific treatment together surely amounts to genocide by any definition, whether it be a moral, political or legal question? Could he tell the House why the Government fail to call it out as such by name?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]
On the specific definition of genocide, my response and those of other Ministers are well documented. But I recognise the description that the noble Lord gave us all of the situation in Xinjiang, and I stand by the fact that the human rights abuses that we have seen, and which he described, are why we are acting with partners today.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB) [V]
I welcome the strong Statement and the actions that are to follow from it, but will the Government act with consistency and similar firmness in relation to other countries where human rights are grossly violated? I could mention a number, but I shall mention one that gets almost no publicity: the continuing atrocities and ethnic cleansing in West Papua. For example, the retired General Hendropriyono, the former head of Indonesian intelligence—the BIN—has called for 2 million West Papuans to be forcibly removed from their homes and relocated elsewhere in Indonesia. I know that the Government repeatedly condemn such actions, but will they go further, be consistent and impose sanctions on him and others involved in what is, in effect, an attempt to destroy a whole people and its culture?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]
Again, as the noble and right reverend Lord acknowledged, the Government have rightly consistently called out human rights abuses, not just in the situation he described but elsewhere in the world. On sanctions specifically, as I have indicated, a process is followed to ensure that the sanctions we impose are evidence-based and robust. We will continue to act. We do not shy away. Many rightly challenged us for a number of months that we were not acting on sanctioning figures from China. We have done so, and China is a major world power. We have not shied away from our moral responsibility in this respect. The fact that we have acted with 30 other countries demonstrates the will of the international community.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)
My Lords, I too welcome this important collaboration with many partners and the creation of these targeted sanctions. I will speak specifically about our embrace of targeted sanctions. Is the Foreign Office engaging with countries that so far do not have targeted sanctions as part of their regimes for dealing with human rights abusers and things such as genocide? The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, asked about the absence of some of our Five Eyes partners from the coalition of targeted sanctions announced in this last day. The reality is that Australia, for example, does not have a targeted sanctions regime. Are we persuading other democracies to take on board this great new development in international law? It gives teeth to international law in a situation where one cannot get people before international courts.
I will also pick up on the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. Targeted sanctions must be used in a very strategic way. To go after lesser persons is not using the regime in the way that it was supposed to be used. For example, the United States of America has on its list the governor of Xinjiang province, Mr Chen Quanguo. Why do we not have him on our sanctions list? He has been sanctioned by the United States; why not by us?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]
I pay tribute to the work that the noble Baroness has done in the context of media freedom and the coalition. The independent legal panel has produced some excellent reports in that respect, including on the use of sanctions. The short answer is that we are speaking to other key partners, specifically some of those she mentioned, to see how we can share our experiences so that they can bring about their own sanctions regimes.
On the specifics of future people who may be sanctioned, it would be mere speculation, but I assure the noble Baroness that we remain very firm on working and sharing evidence with our partners in this respect. We have worked very closely with the United States in particular on these issues and we will continue to do so.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD) [V]
Are we giving the world the moral leadership that it is crying for, or are we just repeating what Pastor Niemöller said of the Nazi regime: “First of all they came for the Jews. I wasn’t a Jew so I didn’t speak out. Then they came for the communists. I wasn’t a communist so I didn’t speak out. Then they came for the trade unionists, but I wasn’t a trade unionist so I didn’t speak out. Then they came for me, and there was nobody left to speak for me”?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]
We are giving clear leadership and working with allies. While we are touching on a sobering subject—the situation of the Uighurs in China—we should recognise that we have not shied away. On my personal commitment, I assure the noble Lord that I meet many members of persecuted communities around the world. Yes, we may not always act with the speed that noble Lords desire, but I am proud of the fact that the United Kingdom continues to play a leading role in standing up for those who do not have a voice and acts when it needs to, as we did yesterday with international partners in sending a very strong message to a country such as China that we will call out human rights abuses.
Lord Balfe (Con)
My Lords, Australia and New Zealand —Australia in particular—were threatened by China earlier this year over coronavirus. What steps are we taking to get the other two of the Five Eyes firmly on board? Secondly, what steps are we taking in the Council of Europe’s ministerial council, where there are a lot of belt and road countries that are now in deep financial trouble? Thirdly, what are we doing in the Commonwealth to try to get to some Commonwealth solidarity?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]
I believe that I have already answered my noble friend’s first question in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy. He is right to raise how we can further strengthen the profile of human rights abuses and get a wider, more diverse selection of countries to support the actions we have taken. The Council of Europe and the Commonwealth provide opportunities for this. I assure my noble friend that we will focus on specific issues of human rights as part of our discussion at the next CHOGM in the upcoming summit in Kigali.
The Earl of Sandwich (CB) [V]
My Lords, I welcome the Statement and the sanctions, but in relation to our new trade agreement with Turkey, are HMG also concerned about the increasing clamp-down on human rights there and its withdrawal from the Istanbul convention? Does he agree with the UN Commissioner for Human Rights, who said:
“Any anti-terror operation should comply with international human rights law, and should not be used to target dissent”?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]
Turkey remains an important partner for the United Kingdom, but I assure the noble Earl that I engage directly on the issue of human rights with the Turkish Government. They have recently produced a new report on the actions they will take this year. We would rather they stayed on board with the Istanbul convention. I agree that any actions we take to ensure that our countries are secure from the scourge of terrorism need to ensure that human rights are always protected.
Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab)
My Lords, like others I welcome the decision to enforce sanctions, but I will press the Minister again on the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws. Can he explain explicitly why the Communist Party boss in Xinjiang is not on the list of those being sanctioned, given that he is considered by many to be the main enforcer of hard-line policies there? If the Minister cannot be explicit now, could he possibly write to me to explain the very odd decision not to include him?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]
I have noted what all noble Lords have said in respect of sanctions of other individuals. I am sure that noble Lords respect the fact that I cannot be specific on particular names, but, as the noble Baroness requested, I will be happy to explain the process we go through before we sanction any individual or entity under the regime.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)
I am afraid that the 20 minutes for Back-Bench questions has now finished. I regret that it has not been possible to call all the Members on the list.