Baroness Kramer (LD) [V]
My Lords, I declare my interests as listed in the register. I agree with the Chancellor that financial services are fundamental to Britain’s economic strength. However, I recommend that anyone looking to assess their future ignore the hype in the Chancellor’s statement—he seems to have drunk the moonshot Kool-Aid—and look at reality. Our failure to negotiate mutual recognition, or at least equivalence-plus, with the EU is a serious problem. If only the Government had taken as much interest in this area as they do in fishing or, as Catherine McGuinness of the City of London Corporation is quoted as saying in today’s Times, finance risks being
“the neglected child of an acrimonious divorce”.
Over £1 trillion in assets have already transferred from the UK to the EU. Last year, Ministers seemed to think that half the financial services business with EU clients, which is about 15% of total UK financial services, had left or was in the process of leaving, including swathes of insurance and asset management. Is 15% still the number, I ask the Minister? The size of these asset transfers suggests that the actuality is well above those expectations. Job transfers are unclear because of Covid, but we do know that, even in 2019, the recruitment of graduates who do not have EU passports had pretty much collapsed for anything except retail banking.
The EU, which I once thought had a 10-year strategy to remove, slice by slice, most EU and euro-related financial services back to the 27, seems to have accelerated that programme. For example, Mr Dombrovskis has cautioned EU businesses to shift a significant portion of their clearing activity out of the UK in the next 18 months. Without dominance in clearing euro-denominated derivatives, the UK’s global role is seriously at risk. Does the Minister agree?
On fintech, many firms have made it clear that they will have to move EU business if we cannot agree on the rules that govern data. Where are negotiations on this, because at the last look they were pretty dire, with the UK determined to please the United States by watering down data protection?
I am delighted that we are finally going to issue a green sovereign. We may be a leader in green finance now, but every single significant financial centre is committed to the green agenda. I note that the EU is expected to issue €200 billion in green bonds as part of its Covid recovery fund, none of which will be issued through London. But will the Government replace the Green Investment Bank? The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, mentioned it; it was sold off in part because, along with the British Business Bank, it was associated with Vince Cable, but that was also a deliberate act of environmental vandalism. Will it be replaced?
We are entering a period of regional economic blocs. The United States has actively repatriated a great deal of dollar financial services. China and Asia generally, contrary to the expectations of George Osborne, are using Hong Kong and Singapore rather than London, even with all the disruption in Hong Kong. India is developing Mumbai, so I caution the Government not to misread the potential of dialogue with India. We are now outside all the regional blocs. We have capacity and skills in financial services, but everyone else has the clients and issues the major currencies. You can move capacity and skills, but you cannot move the clients. London will remain a global centre but, I fear, one of gradually less significance. Will the Government give us a reality check on the future of this crucial industry and a proper assessment of the damage that their hard-line Brexit is delivering?
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office and the Treasury (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for their thoughtful contributions. I will try to answer the questions as fully as I can.
Unlike the EU, the UK’s equivalence assessment of the EU’s regime was conducted on a proportionate basis, recognising that the UK and EU have the same rulebook. The EU sent us over 1,000 pages of questionnaires—not in a timely manner, with the last 248 pages arriving by 25 May, which is why we were not able to return them within a week, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, mentioned. We responded to the questions fully and comprehensively, with over 2,500 pages of response going back at the beginning of July. The EU has not come back with any questions on these responses.
In the absence of clarity from the EU, the Chancellor announced the package of decisions on Monday, which are in the UK’s interest and seek to support UK firms and ongoing cross-border activity with the EU. I assure both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness that we remain open and committed to a continuing dialogue with the EU about their intentions. The Government have taken all reasonable steps to co-operate in good faith with the EU throughout the equivalence process.
The noble Lord asks whether we feel that the EU is holding back, pending the progress of the Financial Services Bill. The measures in the Bill are consistent with a mutual equivalence outcome, and a number of cases actively support it. The UK played an instrumental role in the introduction of a lot of the EU’s regulation, particularly the investment firm regulation and directive, for example, so it is very supportive of the intended outcomes.
The noble Lord asked about TCFD. The UK is the first major country to go beyond comply or explain, or as far as able requirements, and our proposals contain a requisite level of prescription, supervision and enforcement mechanisms to mandate meaningful disclosure. The approach confirms the UK’s position as a global leader on robust climate-related financial disclosures that help investors to make informed decisions. We believe that the timelines set out in the road map provide the right balance between showing ambition and allowing businesses, investors and asset owners enough time to prepare to disclose meaningful information. Initial steps towards introducing TCFD-aligned disclosures have already been taken in respect of certain listed companies, banks and building societies. The FCA consulted in March on comply or explain rules for premium listed companies.
The noble Lord asked about green gilts. The UK’s sovereign green bond will identify specific government green projects that its proceeds will be used to finance, as per the International Capital Market Association green bond principles. These proceeds will then be tracked and reported in a regular and transparent manner to provide clarity to the public and investors.
The UK Government have always remained open to the introduction of new debt-financing instruments but needed to be satisfied that any new instrument would represent good value for money to the taxpayer. We have been regularly reviewing the case for introducing a sovereign green bond, as well as closely monitoring how the green and other ESG bond markets have developed over recent years. The noble Lord asked why we were slow. We have been watching the evolution of this market; indeed, Germany issued its first equivalent only in September this year.
The noble Lord and the noble Baroness asked about a Green Investment Bank mark 2. The Government are committed to ensuring that businesses and infrastructure projects continue to have access to the finance that they need. The UK has a number of existing tools available and we committed, in March last year, to an infrastructure finance review. We still intend to respond to that within the next few weeks.
The noble Baroness asked about asset transfers and the future role of the City. One of the advantages of leaving the EU’s regulation is that it gives us the opportunity to launch a number of initiatives. For example, we will review Solvency II. We will have a call for evidence on the overseas regime, some parts of which have not been reviewed since 1986. We are carrying out a task force on future listings given that there is, for example, quite a big discrepancy between the minimum size of a prospectus in this country and in the US. We are carrying out a consultation on the UK funds review to look at ways of making this country more attractive for international funds.
I remain more optimistic than the noble Baroness that there is a good future. She also asked about fintech and its role. We are a major player in the fintech market. We are developing an ecosystem that supports fintech firms to grow and reach scale. We are fostering partnerships between fintechs and incumbents to enable mainstream adoption of innovation. Being a large economy, we provide the opportunity for high levels of domestic demand; the British public tend to be early adopters of the opportunities that fintech throws up. We have the third-largest number of tech unicorns in the world, with 77 companies valued at over $1 billion. We are absolutely committed to supporting the growth of that market.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
We now come to the 20 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers be brief so that I can call the maximum number of speakers. The first speaker is the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman.
Baroness Hayman (CB) [V]
My Lords, I declare my interest as co-chair of Peers for the Planet. I very much welcome the emphasis in the Statement on green recovery and the ambition to lead the world in green finance. I have a couple of questions on TCFD and the decision to mandate climate disclosures. Could the Government not be a little bit more ambitious on the 2025 deadline, given the number of companies that are already taking on these responsibilities and have acted on disclosure? In the run-up to COP 26, will the Government take this as an exemplar and persuade other countries to act in a similar fashion so that we can have an even playing field across countries?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
The noble Baroness asks important questions. I certainly take on board her desire to try to accelerate the mandatory implementation date. I will feed that back to the Chancellor and see if it can be done. It is always a matter of balance between doing these things too quickly and being slow-footed. The TCFD is a key component of our international efforts at the G7, which we are hosting, the G20, COP 26, which the noble Baroness mentioned, and the Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action. Making this announcement will mean that we can set this as an example for other countries to emulate and harmonise approaches on disclosure.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
My Lords, I, too, declare my interests as set out in the register and welcome the launch of green gilts and the aim of a green recovery.
I shall ask my noble friend two questions. First, I welcome the equivalence decision that the Government have taken unilaterally, but which areas in particular will we have equivalence for, and will there be the same sort of short-notice withdrawal for equivalence as exists in the EU?
Secondly, could my noble friend clarify the welcome statement in the document released by the Chancellor about UK pension funds directing more of their capital towards our economic recovery and setting up a long-term asset fund? Utilising the money in long-term pension schemes to boost recovery directly is an excellent idea, but could we have a little more detail on the plans?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
I thank the noble Baroness for her question. In relation to the equivalence announcement, we are taking on board 17 equivalence rules. In the interests of brevity, I shall not go through all of them, but I shall ask that they are entered into Hansard. The point the noble Baroness makes about the early or perfunctory removal of equivalence is something we have taken on board. Indeed, other countries have expressed this as one of the EU’s problems, and it will be our intention to have a more transparent process that gives those countries the ability to respond to issues and have a more iterative dialogue.
In relation to the noble Baroness’s points on pension fund assets allocation, I touched on this yesterday in the Statement in relation to local government pension funds, and it is certainly a priority for us to try and steer some of these assets, on a low-risk basis, into infrastructure development.
Lord Sikka (Lab) [V]
My Lords, the finance industry has been engaged in bribery, corruption, money laundering, tax avoidance and mis-selling of numerous products. The victims of RBS and HBOS frauds are still awaiting compensation. In July this year, the Intelligence and Security Committee said some aspects of the finance industry were also a threat to national security. I ask the Minister and urge the Government to appoint an independent inquiry into the finance industry, as that would be a good way of promoting public confidence in the industry.
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
I do not accept the noble Lord’s harsh criticisms of the sector. As in any sector, one gets miscreants, but is important to remind the noble Lord that this industry employs over 1 million people in this country and contributes £130 billion to our national economy and some £75 billion in tax receipts.
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]
My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register.
A lot of time was used up seeking equivalence, and now it is right to move on with reforms and new matters. But what is the overall timeline, and will there be more democratic oversight than mere devolving of power? I welcome the unilateral equivalence decisions the UK has made. Many of them show that equivalence can benefit the granter; it is not all about benefits to those receiving equivalence.
I would also like to pursue the matter of pension funds investing in infrastructure. It is something we have envied in Australia and Canada for a long time. Has the Treasury considered how much more could be unleashed if there were not a systemic obsession of regulators with risk-free, liquid investment in government bonds? Post-Covid, is that not an even more outdated comfort blanket, which robs both public and pensioners?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
To reassure the noble Baroness, full disclosure will be made on any further progress with equivalence. The new Finance Bill, just starting its progress through both Chambers, will give opportunities to noble Lords to contribute.
On the issue of pension fund asset allocation, I agree that we have been too focused on pushing too many assets into government gilts or equivalent instruments and that enormous opportunity exists for investment in UK infrastructure.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, I take this opportunity to welcome the Statement from my noble friend today, in particular the part relating to the issuing of the green sovereign bond. Among my interests on the register, I am vice-president of the Association of Drainage Authorities. I urge him to consider that a fundamental shift of thinking is required on environment issues at the heart of the Treasury, relating to spending on environmental projects and more especially flood defences, which will increasingly become a challenge given the threat of climate change. Will the Government ensure that revenue and maintenance activities receive a greater balance of spending than those on capital work? So often when flood defences fail, it is due to the lack of maintenance. Given the pressure of climate change, I hope that my noble friend will agree to review this urgently.
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
I take on board my noble friend’s comments. In relation to flood defences, I must declare an interest: my farm runs down to the sea and I have some three miles of coast, which is under continual attack by the elements. But we have increased the commitment of funding for flood defences; I think it was in the Budget in March, and it certainly recognised that this is a major element of our national infrastructure. In terms of seeing an allocation into these kind of assets, this falls partly into the previous question about ensuring that we get a wider allocation into infrastructure and of course into sea defence and indeed flood defence.
Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]
My Lords, if fluency in fintech will define the future prosperity of the UK, policy alignment and regulatory equivalence are essential with the EU and global counterparties. Does the Minister agree that a key goal is to encourage digital trade, and then to help our SMEs access global markets? I refer to my declaration in the register. The range of financial interventions from Governments and regulators has expanded in an unco-ordinated fashion, underlining the need to strengthen regulatory co-operation. What incentives and assistance will be available to promote standardisation, reusability and rationalisation of technology to standardise taxonomies, document digitalisation, implementation of distributed ledger technology and artificial intelligence?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
My Lords, we absolutely acknowledge the role of fintech in the economy. It generated some £11 billion in 2019 and employed more than 76,000 people. The 2020 report has highlighted the UK as a global leader. Likewise, in the payments landscape, we are also highly innovative because we again are a large economy. In 2018, more than 230,000 faster payments were sent every hour, compared to fewer than 3,000 10 years earlier. The noble Viscount is concerned about regulation. The financial regulators continue to provide a platform that facilitates innovation in this space. For example, the Financial Conduct Authority has accepted a significant number of DLT-based projects into its regulatory sandbox to enable the adoption of this technology to deliver better financial services with appropriate consumer safeguards.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
I refer to my interests in the register. Unlike some others, I congratulate the Chancellor and my noble friend on getting ahead and providing as much certainty as possible in financial services, despite the ongoing difficulties with the EU. We need this innovative £130 billion industry, especially as we start to pay for Covid. How does my noble friend think that this package will help the large number of smaller financial services providers—and indeed the businesses they serve—outside London and outside the leading-edge areas of fintech and green finance, which will of course take time to grow?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
My Lords, we absolutely accept that small businesses are the backbone of the wealth-creating part of our economy. One of the answers I gave earlier was looking at the listing rules in this country to see whether we can make it more accessible for smaller firms. I mentioned that I think that you have to issue a full prospectus for anything in excess of €8 million, whereas in the US it is $50 million, so we certainly will be looking at that.
On a slightly unrelated element, but connected to SMEs, the rules reform that we are working on now, post transition, on procurement opens up an enormous opportunity for SMEs, because it will allow us to set our own rules and not be controlled by the EU regime. That covers some £290 billion-worth of government expenditure each year, and we will be making sure that SMEs get a good slice of that.
Baroness Wheatcroft (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I declare my interests as listed in the register. The Treasury papers say that it will give audit equivalence to the EEA states and approve as adequate their competent authorities. It is important that investors should be able to have confidence in audits provided by EEA auditors for overseas operations of UK businesses. However, does this also mean that EEA auditors will be able to continue practising in the UK after the end of the transition period, while UK auditors will be excluded from EEA markets? If this is the case, can the Minister say what the cost will be of this lack of reciprocity?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
I am not able to give specific answers to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, on those subjects at the moment. They will, no doubt, be included in the ongoing negotiations. If we receive clarity on that in the next few weeks, I will happily write to her.
Lord Flight (Con) [V]
My Lords, I apologise that my screen has gone wrong while waiting. I first declare my interest. [Inaudible.]
Lord Bilimoria (CB) [V]
My Lords, we look forward to the Ron Kalifa report on fintech. The trade credit insurance guarantees making a real difference. Would the Government agree it should be extended until June 2021? Will the Government consider instituting a new 3i-type funding to help provide equity finance for funding, recovery and scale-up? Will the Minister clarify if the Government will consider reinstituting a Green Investment Bank—a question that has been asked before? Finally, will the Minister agree that getting an EU deal with make equivalence much easier to resolve?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
The noble Lord asks a lot of questions: I will take the last one first. Of course, getting a deal will make the whole relationship far more constructive. We remain cautiously optimistic that this can be achieved. I think the Government are broadly sceptical about creating an equity distribution fund or a fund that makes equity available. As I am sure the noble Lord will know, the private equity industry has some $1.5 trillion-worth of dry powder available for investment around the world, including this country. I believe that we should be accessing that rather than using taxpayers’ money.
Lord Gadhia (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, I welcome the content of this Statement and the recognition of the significant contribution of financial services to our economy. However, could I press my noble friend on equivalence? For those following the trajectory of our approach to securing continuing market access, we have been on a ski slope for mutual recognition to enhanced equivalence to equivalence and now to unilateral equivalence—which, by definition, involves no reciprocity. Does this Statement effectively signal we have abandoned hope for a substantive financial services chapter in the UK-EU trade deal? How does that reconcile with the ambitions set out in paragraphs 35 to 37 of the political declaration?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
My Lords, we have certainly not abandoned any aspirations of mutual equivalence. As I said earlier, we cannot start from a position of almost perfect equivalence, and it is disappointing that the EU has not seen it appropriate, at this stage, to engage on a more collaborative basis. We had to provide clarity to UK-based firms and show that we were ready for business on 1 January, whatever the EU’s attitude. We continue to engage with the EU proactively.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Chancellor’s Statement. It quite rightly emphasises the high regard that the United Kingdom is held in throughout the world for its financial services, which, as he said, bring £130 billion to the Exchequer. We are also renowned for our gold standard legal system, which, again, attracts many high-value disputes in our courts, and we rightly take pride in our word being our bond. Therefore, does the Minister agree that, as we leave the European Union, our enviable reputation is tarnished by an open admission by a Minister of the Crown in another place that we will place on the statute book an Act which, on his own admission, will breach international law?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
My Lords, the UKIM Bill is there as a precautionary instrument in the event that we do not achieve a deal at the end of this year, to protect the interests of this country.
Lord Jopling (Con) [V]
My Lords, some years ago, when the European Union was trying to negotiate the TTIP agreement with the United States, one of the United Kingdom’s principal aims was to include financial services in that deal. But when we went to Washington on a Select Committee visit, the United States Treasury was totally—even aggressively—opposed, saying that it was totally unacceptable to include financial services in a trade agreement. Does the Minister agree that there has been no change in the American attitude, and that it will be almost impossible to get a satisfactory and acceptable new trade agreement with the United States in the short term? To suggest that it will be simple and swift is some way from the truth.
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
My Lords, I am not involved in the intricacies of the trade discussions between the US and ourselves. There is a very simple principle with any trade agreement: the more you try to agree in one go, the harder it is. If you include something as complex as financial services, then it will be very difficult. I am sure that that is why the EU has still not been able to negotiate its own deal with the US. However, we will continue to engage with it as practically as we can.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
My Lords, that is all we have time for in the 20 minutes.