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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Tobias Ellwood)
I will do my best to impress, Mr Hollobone. As is normal practice in these debates, I start by thanking my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) for his very kind words in recognising the issues I have to deal with—providing the news and dealing with the real estate—and for his courtesy in our discourse about this very delicate matter.
I also take this opportunity to welcome back the Tornado pilots who have returned from their duties in Iraq and Syria for the last time. The Tornado is an incredible aircraft, which came into service in 1979. It has now returned to RAF Marham and will be replaced by the F35 and the Typhoon. That demonstrates the advancement of our incredible capabilities, which were reflected across the nation in the 100th anniversary last year. I think that was a welcome reminder to the nation of just how important our armed forces are. We as a nation step forward when perhaps other countries do not. That is part of our desire and appetite to help to shape the world around us, as a force for good. The RAF has played, and continues to play, an important role in that.
Before I discuss RAF Scampton in detail, I want to put into context the wider picture of defence real estate optimisation that we face. My right hon. Friend touched on that a number of times in his speech. We must recognise that a base or a garrison is not just an operational locality; it is also a place for families and friends, where children grow up. It is part of a community and forms a bond with the society in which it is embedded.
We must also recognise that because of decades—indeed, centuries—of development of the armed forces real estate, the country is peppered with little localities, from Dad’s Army operations to huge bases. Some 3% of the UK is MOD land. Owing to the reduction in the size of all three services, some of that is surplus to requirement, and that means that we must make tough decisions.
Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con)
I am sure the Minister will agree that the presence of the Red Arrows makes Scampton more important, because they are such an iconic institution in the United Kingdom. We associate them with the commemoration of important events and anniversaries, and particularly the 100th anniversary of the RAF. We have an important event coming up on 29 March this year. Does the Minister think it might be possible to arrange for the Red Arrows to fly over Parliament so we can properly celebrate that important historic event?
Mr Ellwood
I am tempted to say so many things. My hon. Friend, for whom I have huge respect, knows that we were on different sides of the argument. To be clear, where we are is not where I would want to be. However, I am committed to democracy and I recognise the process that we have undergone, so I respect the fact that, if there is a deal, we will depart from the European Union on 29 March. I hope he will forgive me for saying that although 17 million people may be shouting for joy on that day and may demand that the Red Arrows participate, the nation as a whole—43 million voters—must come together, put aside their polarised views and the gridlock we have faced, and move forward.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough touched on the challenges we face, including what Russia is doing. China is tasking us in another void. We must work with our European partners to meet the threats and challenges we face in a diverse, very complex, changing and threatening world. I hope my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans) will understand if I do not jump at the opportunity to stand with him on the point that he made.
I return to the subject of the debate. To conclude my point about the defence real estate optimisation programme, we must reduce the size of the footprint of the estate and drive down the running costs.
Mr Ellwood
I will finish this point.
We must invest heavily in the core sites where our personnel will be based. That is the focal point. As we reduce the size of all three services of our armed forces, we are building up super-garrisons where we can invest in the long term to improve the accommodation and training facilities, but that means that we must take difficult decisions to close bases.
Anne-Marie Trevelyan (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (Con)
Has the MOD had any discussions with other Departments about whether it should be funding the cost of the Red Arrows, given that their great value is not to war fighting and defence, but to UK plc’s influence around the globe? Scampton is now a historic education centre, and that is not the MOD’s core business.
Mr Ellwood
No. We are jumping into discussing one of the assets that is based at RAF Scampton. Given the time, I might as well throw away my speech and just go for it, because I will not be able to get through the points. The RAF Red Arrows are critical to our capabilities in a number of ways. They allow our pilots to develop skillsets that they would not get in any other forums. They do much to promote Britain’s activity, soft power and so forth. They do outreach—for example, at Scampton and the Bournemouth air show. They reach out to youngsters and invigorate them to think about potentially serving in the armed forces, or at least to support and have reverence and respect for what our armed forces do.
There is no threat to the Red Arrows, but we must ask two questions. First, where can they be based? The RAF itself must make a judgment call on that operational decision.
Mr Ellwood
I will finish this point, if I may.
Secondly, where do the Red Arrows train? They spend some of their time training, and some of their time doing display work. The training area is not necessarily right on the doorstep of where they are based, but the training must be done with the permission of the Civil Aviation Authority, so there are many factors that must be taken into account when allocating where the Red Arrows will be. The Red Arrows have moved regularly since they were created. They have never been in one place for any huge length of time.
Dr Caroline Johnson
My understanding is that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) said, the Red Arrows have been in Lincolnshire since 1983. I was a hospital doctor before I came to Parliament, and I remember the joy that many local patients would get from watching the Red Arrows practise outside the window.
I wonder whether the Minister has given consideration to a couple of points. First, RAF Cranwell will soon have a special G-force training facility, which the RAF Red Arrows will use—they are, obviously, local. Secondly, has he had any discussions with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy about contributing to the Red Arrows?
Mr Ellwood
My hon. Friend is eating into my time. Will she expedite her question?
Dr Johnson
Thirdly, what discussions has the Minister had with the Civil Aviation Authority about the special piece of airspace that the Red Arrows have for practising in? My understanding is that that is terribly difficult to replicate elsewhere.
Mr Ellwood
I will not answer those questions here because, with respect, this is the debate of my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough. I will write to my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson) with the answers.
On the Red Arrows and Lincolnshire, I have had the good fortune to visit many of the bases. I was in RAF Marham on Thursday, which is to be the home of the new 617 Squadron in tribute to the Dambusters, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough mentioned. Lincolnshire does incredibly well, given that ever fewer runways and airbases from the second world war survive. It is the home of the RAF. I have mentioned Marham, and Coningsby is also based there, with our quick reaction force. My hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham mentioned Cranwell, where officer training takes place. She is right that there is a new state-of-the-art facility there for F-35 training, which involves a simulator that allows pilots to experience not just taking off and landing, but other moves; it gives them the exact experience of being in the aircraft. Then there is Digby, and not least Waddington, where our star capability is. As a county, Lincolnshire does incredibly well.
Mr Ellwood
I will not give way again. I literally have two and a half minutes left, and I am on page 2 of my speech. I might as well give up.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough said, some of the assets at RAF Scampton—the bases and buildings—are exactly the same as they were in the second world war. We have not invested in the site for some time. The runway itself requires huge investment because of the weight of the aircraft, the distance and the runway systems. The cost of bringing all that up to the standards we expect would be prohibitive. There is huge recognition of the history of that important site, given the role of the Dambusters, which my right hon. Friend touched on. We do not want to lose sight of that. I am pleased to hear that the museum is going well. In our private conversations, I have said that I would like to speak to the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport to see what more we can to do invest in that site.
I make it very clear that we do not take these decisions lightly. Through the full scoping of the RAF real estate, we must make tough judgments about where we will invest in the long term. I am very sorry that Scampton was not one of the sites chosen, but we need to work with those who will be based there to ensure that, as the relocation takes place, they and their families are looked after.
Ultimately, this is an operational decision made by the RAF itself. I promise my right hon. Friend that Lincolnshire will continue to play the most significant part in the air contribution to our military capability.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for meeting me about the future of the assets at RAF Kirton in Lindsey. I hope he will ensure, as he deals with the transfer at Scampton, that there continues to be proper engagement with local people in relation to the assets at Kirton in Lindsey.
Mr Ellwood
In conclusion, I simply say that I understand hon. Members’ passion. It is important that MPs come here to support their communities and recognise the value that RAF personnel and their families bring. I recognise that, and I recognise the difficult decisions that must be made. I stand here as a pilot and as somebody who served in the armed forces. It is important, given the complexities and challenges we face, that the RAF continues to advance. We will continue to invest in the people, the real estate, the training and the airbases.
Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).