The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 7 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
I do not a have tremendous amount to add to what the hon. Member for Bootle laid out, but I want to highlight the written evidence submitted by the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales regarding VAT and online marketplaces.
The institute is concerned that as well as this change proposed by the Government, there may be subsequent change, perhaps—if we are still subject to the European Union—with the principal VAT directive taking effect in 2021. What is the Government’s view of that directive? Do they think there is any chance that we will be in some transitional period, or that UK businesses will be under that directive? It is not clear at the moment.
The chartered accountants are asking for the UK to seek
“a derogation to implement these proposals from an earlier date than currently permitted under EU law.”
That will not be necessary if the UK has left and we are not subject to EU law, but the institute believes that the EU directive would give consistency to both UK and EU businesses and that there would be no double taxation risk in it.
To highlight some of the things that the hon. Member for Bootle mentioned, I am sympathetic to the Government view that this is a difficult area for enforcement. The online world is constantly changing and there are always new ways for businesses to get around their obligations. It might be useful to have a wider review, perhaps once we leave the EU, because in many areas there seems to be a way around for businesses not to pay their VAT—they pop up, do something else, and change and change, so perhaps there should be regulation of the marketplaces to a greater degree, for companies such as eBay and Amazon, to make sure that that is done. Perhaps we should get that VAT automatically at the point of sale, so that we do not have to go through companies in a longer and more protracted way. We know when goods are being delivered; they go to someone’s house, to an address, so for the most part we can trace where they are going. Perhaps there are other ways we can enforce VAT collection. At the moment it seems like an easy thing to get around and a difficult thing for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to chase. If we want to ensure that we get the maximum VAT take, we have to look at different ways and try to get around the technology in a smarter way than we perhaps have been doing up to now.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
It is a pleasure to serve again under your chairmanship, Mr Owen.
The clause strengthens existing powers to make online marketplaces accountable for VAT evaded through their platforms. The growth and development of the online retail market mean that the average UK consumer can now buy a vast range of goods at very competitive prices, and have them delivered rapidly by sellers based all over the world. E-commerce plays an important part in the UK economy, but it also provides opportunities for abuse of the VAT system.
Businesses that sell goods to UK consumers via online marketplaces do not always pay the correct VAT to HMRC. When those businesses do not charge VAT correctly on their goods, they unfairly undercut the honest majority of businesses that comply with our VAT rules—that point was made by the hon. Member for High Peak. The businesses that do not charge VAT correctly abuse the trust of UK customers and deprive the Government of significant revenue.
At Budget 2016, the Government announced a package of measures to tackle online VAT fraud. That included a new joint and several liability provision giving HMRC the power to hold online marketplaces responsible for the future unpaid VAT of non-compliant overseas businesses that HMRC identifies operating on the marketplaces. It also included a fulfilment house due diligence scheme which opens for registration in April 2018 and will provide HMRC with an audit trail to track goods that UK-based warehouses are storing for overseas traders. The new package extends HMRC’s existing powers for tackling online VAT fraud. Taken together, the packages of Budget 2016 and autumn Budget 2017 are expected to raise just under £1 billion by 2023.
The clause strengthens HMRC’s existing joint and several liability powers and introduces a new requirement for online marketplaces to display valid VAT numbers on their platforms. Although online VAT fraud is not restricted to overseas businesses, the clause will ensure that joint and several liability rules cover all non-compliant businesses, including United Kingdom ones. It also strengthens the existing joint and several liability rules for overseas businesses and will enable HMRC to hold online marketplaces jointly and severally liable for the unpaid VAT of an overseas online seller from the point when the online marketplace knew or should have known that the overseas seller should be registered for VAT in the UK but was not.
At this point, I will turn to some of the specific points raised by hon. Members this morning. The hon. Member for Bootle was concerned about whether the measures are strong enough, although my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire rightly pointed to the sittings of the Public Accounts Committee, in which the complexity and difficulties of this area have been highlighted.
Under the current arrangements, HMRC has received about 25,000 applications to register for VAT from non-EU-based online retailers. The VAT liability reported by such businesses has increased from £6 million in 2015 to £27 million in 2016, and we expect that to continue to rise. HMRC has issued more than 1,000 joint and several liability notices to online marketplaces resulting in the removal of non-compliant sellers. It has also issued assessments against online overseas traders for unpaid VAT amounting to more than £43 million, with a further £71 million in the pipeline. That covers at least some of the questions posed by the hon. Member for Bootle.
The hon. Gentleman also raised the issue of HMRC resourcing. We have provided HMRC with an additional £2 billion since 2010, which is part of the reason why it has been so successful in bringing in additional revenues by clamping down on avoidance, evasion and non-compliance. A further £170 million came through the recent Budget, which will raise more than £4 billion across the scorecard period. He also mentioned the issue of people and office closures. We have previously discussed how HMRC’s operations are now far more technology-driven and intelligence-led, and that kind of approach lends itself to the more centralised, high-tech, highly skilled operation that underpins much of the success that we are having today.
The hon. Member for Glasgow Central asked about VAT directives. I think—I am interpreting her remarks; she can correct me if I am wrong—that she might be referring to VAT arrangements between the EU and the UK. There is acquisition VAT, as opposed to import VAT, which applies to businesses importing from non-EU countries. The customs Bill going through Parliament at the moment will effect a change from acquisition VAT to import VAT. It will, of course, be down to the negotiation where exactly we land in terms of the arrangements that pertain after our exit from the European Union, but I assure her that HMRC will consider carefully the impact of where we land to ensure that we continue to make progress on online VAT fraud. She suggested a review after we have left the European Union of the measures and the operation of online platforms. We can certainly consider that for the future. I am sure that we will come back to the issue many times in the years ahead.
Finally, the clause requires online marketplaces to ensure that VAT numbers are valid and displayed on websites when they are provided by the seller. The requirement will be supported by regulatory penalty. Taken together, the changes will make it more difficult for non-compliant online businesses to trade in the UK, and will enable HMRC to tackle them more easily.
I welcome the opportunity to speak to the amendments tabled by the hon. Members for Oxford East and for Bootle. At this stage, I should say that something rather extraordinary and slightly worrying has occurred: the Government have decided that we are content to accept one of the amendments. After all the constant chipping away at us, one amendment has got through. I would not get too excited—it is slightly technical—but we are grateful to the Opposition for their scrutiny of the Bill and for tabling this amendment. The Government agree with amendment 56 and will therefore specify that it is section 69(1) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 being amended.
Amendment 57 would increase the penalty for online marketplaces that fail to display a valid VAT number when provided with one. The current penalties refer to daily amounts and are entirely consistent with the penalties awarded for similar offences. In contrast, the proposed amendment could result in a marketplace receiving a penalty of up to £1.5 million for failing to display a valid VAT number for a single online sale. We believe that a sanction such as that would be unreasonable.
Amendment 58 would limit the time available for an online marketplace to ensure the compliance or removal of a non-compliant seller to 10 days after receipt of a joint and several liability notice. It would also require HMRC to issue a JSL notice in every case where VAT revenue would be protected or enhanced. Such an amendment would restrict HMRC’s ability in handling non-compliance on a case-by-case basis. It is also somewhat unfair, denying an online marketplace a sufficient opportunity to tackle non-compliance by sellers on its platforms before being held jointly and severally liable.
Similarly, amendment 59 would reduce the period in which an online marketplace must ensure compliance or removal of an overseas seller, from the point of view that it knew or should have known that a particular seller should be registered for UK VAT but is not. The amendment would reduce the period allowed from 60 days to 10 days. That would not allow enough time for an online marketplace acting in good faith to assist an overseas seller in becoming registered for UK VAT without still incurring joint and several liability. I commend the clause to the Committee.
Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)
I am deeply grateful to the Government for accepting an amendment that specifies the subsection of section 69 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 that will be amended by clause 38(2). It is very significant and a major climb-down by the Government. [Laughter.] May there be many more of them, Mr Owen. It is a delight to see you in the Chair.
I am not wholly convinced by the Minister’s protestations about the huge amounts involved and the latitude that the Government appear to give to people who, when they set up businesses, know the environment that they are operating in. These are intelligent people, entrepreneurs. They know exactly what they are doing so they should be aware, as much as they can be, of what the rules are when they get into the game, so to speak. That lots of these people are naive and not really sure what is going to happen and what the processes, the procedures and the rules are, is not the most convincing argument I have heard from the Minister.
The message that we have to send to people who wish to set up businesses is, “You will get a welcoming environment. We welcome entrepreneurs. We welcome you being part of our business society and our business communities. But you have to play by the rules, and if you don’t, your business may face sanctions.” That is the message that we want to sell, especially in the light of the fact that we are moving out of the European Union. There are huge amounts of uncertainty in the economy, so we just want to let people know that if they do come into that environment, they will have to be careful to play by the rules.
I do not think that our proposals, particularly in amendment 57, are especially onerous. The amount of money—cash—that companies will make will be quite significant; they just have to be clear that they play by the rules. So despite the Minister’s silver tongue, we will press amendment 57 to a vote, to make a point.
Amendment 56 agreed to.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 1—Review of retrospective VAT refunds for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and the Scottish Police Authority—
‘(1) Within one month of this Act receiving Royal Assent, the Chancellor of the Exchequer shall commission a review of the potential consequences of allowing the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and the Scottish Police Authority to claim VAT refunds under section 33 of VATA 1994 retrospective to the date of their establishment.
(2) The review shall consider—
(a) the administrative consequences of allowing retrospective claims, and
(b) the impact on revenue of allowing retrospective claims.
(3) The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall lay the report of this review before the House of Commons within six months of this Act receiving Royal Assent.’
This new clause would require the Chancellor of the Exchequer to commission a review into what the potential consequences of allowing the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and the Scottish Police Authority to make retrospective claims for VAT refunds would be.
Mel Stride
The clause makes a number of changes to section 33 of the VAT Act 1994, which allows certain bodies to recover normally irrecoverable VAT. First and foremost, the clause fulfils the commitment made in autumn Budget 2017 to legislate to provide VAT refunds to Police Scotland and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service.
The Committee will be aware that in 2012, the Scottish Government chose to restructure Scottish police and fire services to create national bodies. At the time, the Scottish Government understood that those bodies would not be entitled to VAT refunds as they were no longer locally funded. They none the less continued with the change on the basis that VAT costs would be outweighed by potential savings.
A number of representations have been made to the Government on the issue and the Government have listened carefully to the concerns expressed. I am pleased that the provisions in clause 39 will enable the Scottish services to fully recover VAT, in effect providing £40 million additional financial support each year.
The clause also makes minor changes to the legislative basis by which combined authorities and English and Welsh fire authorities receive VAT refunds. Those bodies are currently eligible for VAT refunds but each authority is added to section 33 individually by statutory instrument, which takes up parliamentary time. The clause removes the need for statutory instruments and ensures that English and Welsh fire authorities are automatically entitled to VAT refunds. It does not substantially affect the VAT treatment of combined authorities or English and Welsh fire authorities. It simply removes an unnecessary administrative barrier, freeing up parliamentary time by allowing authorities to access refunds automatically.
Finally, I will touch on the VAT treatment of police services in Northern Ireland. Northern Irish police services have always had the right to reclaim VAT refunds and it is absolutely right that that is the case. However, it is a complex area of VAT law and the Government have decided to clarify the legislation to put the matter beyond doubt. The clause therefore makes explicit the right of the Northern Irish policing bodies to receive VAT refunds.
The clause makes a number of changes to the treatment of public bodies in the VAT Act, as well as making procedural amendments. It delivers on the Chancellor’s Budget announcement on Scottish police and fire services, providing VAT refunds worth around £40 million a year to support the delivery of frontline services. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.
Alison Thewliss
We support the U-turn by the UK Government to allow VAT to be reclaimed by Police Scotland and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. I should declare that I was a councillor on the board of Strathclyde fire and rescue when this was being discussed; I know the matter well and know the issues that the Minister referred to. There was a great deal of correspondence at that time from Scottish Government Ministers to the UK Government, requesting that the change be made, so it is with some incredulity that we hear, “Oh wait; all of a sudden we have just realised, yes, we are going to fix it now”—now, rather than several years earlier.
It seems logical that if the argument stands today and it stood in the Budget, then it stood all along, so the Government should do right by the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and Police Scotland and refund the VAT that we are due. Given that those services’ funding was pushed on to the Scottish Government via the UK Government’s austerity agenda, they very much need that money.
Mel Stride
The hon. Member for Glasgow Central asked: why now? Why has this not been done before? I guess, as with all policy decisions taken in politics, there was a balance to be struck between resources available, the lobbying that occurred and the input of competing interests. Without going too far into this point, I think it is fair to say that since 2015, the lobbying became fairly intense. That is not to deny in any way that there was fairly intensive lobbying prior to 2015. The decision was taken in the round at the time of the Budget, when all the competing uses for the UK Exchequer’s funds were balanced up. The question, “Why now, rather than at any particular time in the past?” could be applied to almost any tax change. It is a fairly generic point, in that sense.
The hon. Member for Bootle was firm, as was the hon. Member for Aberdeen North, on the perceived unfairness of the original decision. I remind Members that the original decision was taken by the Scottish Government in the knowledge that restructuring their services in this way would have a particular impact on the ability to claim relief for VAT.
Alison Thewliss
Will the Minister acknowledge that the original decision by the UK Government not to allow VAT relief was also part of that process?
Mel Stride
I was not party to the discussions that occurred at that time. The simple fact is that when the Scottish Government took the decision to restructure, they knew what the consequences would be; that is the critical point. There was no question of the UK Government having been vague or imprecise on that point; we made the consequences very clear to them at that point.
The hon. Member for Glasgow Central suggested that the measures in the clause relating to VAT exemptions for other authorities in England and Wales were somehow linked to this, and forced our hand on the decision about VAT relief for the Scottish fire and rescue service. There is no link; that can be seen from what the two different elements of the clause do. Unlike the provisions on Scotland, the measures on English and Welsh authorities do not extend VAT relief where it is not otherwise available; they are simply to do with the mechanics of how authorities benefit from that relief, and absolve Parliament from having to take the time to agree each and every instance through a statutory instrument.
As a matter of principle, the Treasury would not normally look at bringing in taxes retrospectively. We should be thankful that we have now resolved this issue. I hope that as the years roll by, this will fade into the background, and we will reach a point when we can all feel that we are in a good position regarding VAT and Scottish fire and rescue.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 39 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 42
Landfill tax: disposals not made at landfill sites, etc
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
That schedule 12 be the Twelfth schedule to the Bill.
New clause 15—Landfill Tax disposals: review of changes to disposals within charge—
‘(1) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must commission a review of the changes to disposals for which Landfill Tax is chargeable within three months of the passing of this Act.
(2) The review under this section must consider—
(a) the effect on revenue of the changes,
(b) the impact on the volume of disposals at—
(i) sites with an environmental disposal permit, and
(ii) sites without an environmental disposal permit, and
(c) the impact of the changes on the prevalence of illegal disposal sites.
(3) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must lay before the House of Commons the report of the review under this section within twelve months of the passing of this Act.”
This new clause would require the Chancellor of the Exchequer to commission and lay before the House of Commons a report into the effects of the changes to disposals for which Landfill Tax is chargeable on tax revenue and on the volume of disposals and the prevalence of illegal landfill sites.
Mel Stride
Clause 42 and schedule 12 extend the scope of landfill tax to disposals made at sites without an environmental permit, in order to prevent rogue operators from profiting by avoiding landfill tax. The clause also brings clarity to what material is taxable at sites that do have a permit. Landfill tax was introduced on 1 October 1996 to discourage the disposal of waste to landfill, and encourage more sustainable ways of managing waste. Since the introduction of the tax in the UK, landfilling has gone down by more than 60%. Illegal waste sites are a blight on local communities and can cause serious environmental damage. Although the Environment Agency can impose fines and criminal sanctions on operators of illegal sites, they are outside the scope of the tax. With no landfill tax to pay, rogue operators can undercut legitimate operators and make significant profits.
The Environmental Services Association estimates that waste crime costs the English economy over £600 million annually, with up to £200 million of tax being avoided. At the spring Budget in 2017, the Government announced a consultation on whether to extend the scope of landfill tax to illegal waste sites. Following strong support from industry, the Government confirmed their intention to legislate to extend the scope of landfill tax to illegal waste sites from 1 April 2018. Alongside this, in response to broad industry support in the consultation announced at Budget 2016, the Government are amending the definition of a taxable disposal. That follows a 2008 Court of Appeal ruling that some material received at a landfill site and put to certain uses is not waste, and therefore not taxable. That has created uncertainty about what constitutes a taxable disposal and has led to increased complexity for operators.
The changes being made by this clause will make all persons who are responsible for disposals at illegal waste sites, across the supply chain, jointly and severally liable for the tax. They may also be liable for a penalty of up to 100% of the tax, and in the most severe cases, HMRC will be able to prosecute those involved. In order to address the primary concern raised by stakeholders during the consultation, safeguards have been put in place to ensure that any genuinely innocent parties will not be liable for the tax. The clause will give industry certainty about what constitutes a taxable disposal. Currently, material is considered to be waste if certain criteria apply. The changes made by this clause will remove the waste criteria; instead, all material disposed of at a landfill site will be treated as taxable waste unless it is specifically covered by an exception.
To simplify the system further, we are also removing the requirement to notify HMRC of restoration activities undertaken at a landfill site. These changes will support the legitimate waste management industry by simplifying the tax system and providing clarity for landfill operators.
Let me turn briefly to new clause 15, tabled by Opposition Members. This would require the Government to commission a review of these changes within three months of the passing of this Act. A full assessment of the impacts of this measure was published in September 2017. At that time, the Government assessed that the measure would increase the cost of the illegal disposal of waste at unauthorised sites and incentivise the disposal of waste at legal—and more environmentally friendly—waste management operations. Following this, the Office for Budget Responsibility published an assessment of the revenue impact of the changes; £145 million is expected over the five years following implementation. Those impacts were assessed with the full support of the waste industry, and after further contributions from the Environment Agency.
Information about landfill tax revenues and the volume of disposals is publically available. HMRC publishes its landfill tax receipts twice yearly. The Environment Agency publishes additional information annually about disposals at permitted sites and the number of illegal waste sites in England. As such, the Government’s view is that the proposed review is unnecessary. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.
Peter Dowd
The clause amends the Finance Act 1996 to include disposals at sites without an environmental tax disposal permit within the charge to landfill tax.
I would like to declare an interest. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton, will appreciate this; it is not to do with landfill tax, but it is important to give some context. We have a huge dock complex in my constituency. On several occasions in the past couple of years, the scrap metal kept there has gone up in flames, and it has taken days and huge amounts of public resource to get the fire under control. We have had many discussions with the organisations concerned, although that is not landfill. A fire at an illegal waste transfer centre in Hawthorne Road—in a residential area—took a week to put out. There were huge plumes of smoke for weeks on end. [Interruption.] That is probably the fire chief now, telling me there is another fire. I hope not. The issue of waste disposal, landfill, and the whole area relating to waste is very important.
The landfill tax was brought in nearly 20 years ago to act as a disincentive to landfilling material, encourage the use of recycled material and incentivise recycling more broadly. The tax is due on material disposed of at landfill sites in England, Wales and Northern Ireland that have an environmental permit or licence for waste disposal.
HMRC collects the tax from the permitted operators of landfill sites based on the weight and type of material landfilled. There are two rates of tax: a standard rate of £86 a tonne, and a lower rate of £2.70 for the least polluting material. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the national environmental protection agencies are responsible for the regulation and enforcement of environmental policy.
I could talk for another hour or two on the issue as it relates to my constituency, but on this occasion, I will spare everybody. Although HMRC is responsible for the administration and collection of the landfill tax, and there are a range of civil and criminal powers to address tax evasion and non-compliance, the question is whether HMRC gets on and does that.
Over the past 20 years of the tax, landfilling has come down by almost 60%, which is a positive achievement for society, but we cannot continue to produce this volume of goods made of materials that vastly outlast the use of the goods. That was the subject of an item on Radio 4 this morning, featuring the chief executive of Iceland. What we are doing is leading to huge accumulations of waste across the land, and the pollution of our ocean, as the recent BBC documentary “Blue Planet” demonstrated so powerfully. It is therefore positive that the Government are extending this disincentive to those operating illegally, to ensure that where enforcement is weak, a further layer of disincentive is put in place.
The Government’s consultation set out the logic of that extension, using the examples of three people who were fined by environmental agencies for illegally dumping 6,000 tonnes of waste. Under the law, they can be fined only through environmental protection levies, which in this case amounted to £170,000. However, if further legislation had been put in place to extend the territories that could be included under the landfill tax, that fine could have been as much as £500,000, plus a penalty of 100% of the tax and interest.
The landfill tax gap—the difference between what is collected and the estimates of what it should be—is £150 million, not including the waste dumped at illegal sites. There is clearly much more to be done to address this problem. Strangely, however, the Government’s impact assessment does not include information on Exchequer impacts of this extended tax. Fortunately, the OBR is here to help, with a prediction that tackling waste crime will raise £30 million in the first year. That will rise to roughly £45 million a year after. Will the Minister explain why the OBR believes that this measure will recoup only a third of the revenue that the Government estimate is missing? I am sure he will have the figures available, even if not today. As far as I can see, it does not seem a particularly good return on investment.
Peter Dowd
Fine. The point I am trying to make is that landfill capacity across the UK has decreased from thousands of sites, with only about 50 sites predicted to be in operation by 2020. Although we have talked about the period of time that our proposed reviews should cover, it is crucial that this one takes place not once, but regularly. The issue is serious, as I have set out.
Crucially, regional capacity also varies greatly, and the Government are not tackling that. This review will help us to identify the differences in a systematic way. For example, Kent is likely to have no landfill sites at all by 2021, according to SUEZ, which suggests that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs does not have the resources to look at its concerns. Perhaps if the tax was sent in the right direction, the Department would have the capacity. Although it is not his Department, I ask the Financial Secretary what contingency planning DEFRA has put in place in case the record on recycling worsens. It is important that the suggestion of a review is taken into account.
This proposal extends charges to illegal landfill. Illegal landfill will only increase if we begin to produce more waste than our capacity can handle. How does the Minister plan to deal with excess waste that surpasses our current capacity? He may want to pass that question on to one of his hon. Friends. Under the Prime Minister’s plan, by of which year will the UK end the use of landfill completely? How are we going to keep tabs on that, and what systematic process will we use? If we use the same methodology that the Chancellor used to get the deficit down, we will all be pushing up daisies by the time it is sorted. We hope that the clause will ensure that landfill waste falls, across both permitted and illegal sites, but the Government seem to be unable to tell us exactly how much landfill will be diverted into ecologically sound management as a result. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten us about those projections.
That is why we have tabled a new clause that is designed to establish how much revenue this measure will generate, as well as to measure the behavioural impact that it sets out to achieve. Our suggested review would look at the impact of extending landfill tax on the volume of disposals at both permitted and illegal sites. Alongside that, we believe it is important to measure the impact on the prevalence of illegal sites, as well as the amount of waste disposed at them. Everybody on the Committee recognises the importance of consigning landfill to the dustbin of history. To do so would deliver unquantifiable ecological effects and would, we hope, form part of a new respect shown by our society for the environment on which we rely.
Extending taxation to illegal sites will deliver a reduction in landfill, and it can therefore only be a good thing. I commend the Financial Secretary for introducing this measure. It is all the more important that the Government monitor and assess the impact of the measure, as well as investing revenue to ensure that it is enforced. We hope that all Members present today will support our review, in the name of good governance, to ensure that the UK continues to take steps towards no longer producing damaging and unnecessary landfill.
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Member for Bootle for commending us for introducing this measure. Many of his remarks were fairly wide-ranging, and I think he recognised that some of them—for example, those concerning the amount of landfill that we have available and what our plans for it might be—related to other Departments. I hope that he will indulge me when I say that on those issues, it might be better for him to go direct to the Departments concerned.
Peter Dowd
I take your exhortation to keep things as tight as possible, Mr Owen, but there are occasions—I have asked the Minister about this—on which Departments really ought to work closely together to ensure that we have the balance right. That is difficult sometimes when we are doing something specific and technical. Nevertheless, I am sure he will agree that it is important to be able to bring other factors into the equation and get a proper bigger picture.
The Chair
I am grateful. Before the Minister proceeds, as both hon. Members have agreed that this is outside the remit of the Bill, I ask them both to confine their remarks to the Bill.
Mel Stride
Thank you for your guidance, Mr Owen. This is predominantly a tax Bill, and I will endeavour to stick to matters relating to that aspect of our considerations. However, there is much that the hon. Gentleman and I can agree on. We agree that we certainly need to cut down on the amount of disposable items out there; he gave some shocking examples of where the situation had got completely out of hand and of the damage to the environment.
The hon. Gentleman spent some time speaking about the landfill tax gap and how much tax we might be forgoing because we do not currently tax illegal sites. By definition, given that illegal sites do not fall to the charge of landfill tax, they are not included in the figures for tax forgone, because there is no mechanism by which they can be taxed. The whole purpose of the clause is to bring them into the scope of taxation. He asked how much the measure is expected to raise once we have brought those illegal sites into the scope of the tax, and the answer is £145 billion over the scorecard period.
The hon. Gentleman asked a number of questions about resourcing and HMRC. At Budget, we announced that we would provide funding for additional HMRC staff to enforce the measure. We have also announced that we are investing an additional £30 million in the Environment Agency in England, to enable the agency to tackle the illegal waste sites as well as the misdescription of waste and illegal exports. With that, I commend the clause to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 42 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 12 agreed to.
Clause 43
Air passenger duty: rates of duty from 1 April 2019
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to consider new clause 16—Review of changes to rates of air passenger duty—
“(1) No later than 31 March 2019, the Chancellor of the Exchequer must review the effects of the changes made by section 43 to rates of air passenger duty set out in Chapter 4 of Part 1 of FA 1994.
(2) The review under this section must consider—
(a) the effect on airplane usage as a result of the changes to air passenger duty rates, and
(b) the effectiveness of the changes to air passenger duty on reducing carbon emissions and meeting carbon emissions targets.
(3) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must lay before the House of Commons the report of the review under this section as soon as practicable after its completion.”
This new clause provides for a review of the effects of the changes to air passenger duty rates on airplane usage and carbon emissions.
Mel Stride
Clause 43 sets air passenger duty rates for the tax year 2019-20. All short-haul rates and the long-haul economy rate will remain frozen at the 2018-19 level. Only those flying long haul in business or first class, or by private jet, will pay more. The changes will ensure that the aviation sector continues to contribute to general taxation while also providing a freeze for more than 95% of all passengers.
Air passenger duty is a per-passenger tax levied on airlines. With no tax on aviation fuel or VAT on international or domestic flights, APD ensures that the aviation sector plays its part in general taxation, raising £3.1 billion a year. The aviation sector continues to perform strongly. The UK has the third largest aviation network in the world, and passenger numbers at UK airports have been strong: in fact, growth has exceeded 15% in the previous five years.
Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to be speaking with you in the Chair, Mr Owen. I thank the Minister for his clarifying comments. We on the Labour Benches still wish to have the review proposed in new clause 16. The review would, exactly as described by the Minister, examine the impact of the APD changes on the usage of aeroplanes and their emissions.
On one hand, it is helpful that we are shifting towards greater predictability for air operators and consumers around air passenger duty. It seems appropriate that we have the lag so that we can discuss and determine future rates, rather than having short-term change, but we would like a much stronger indication of the direction of Government thinking in relation to the tax.
The Minister offered the same argument for air passenger duty, to a word, as the one we were given in the previous Finance Bill discussion:
“With no tax on aviation fuel or VAT on international and domestic flights, APD ensures that the aviation sector plays its part in contributing towards general taxation, raising £3.1 billion per annum.”––[Official Report, Finance Public Bill Committee, 24 October 2017; c. 111.]
In our discussions in Committee on APD changes in the previous Finance Bill, we went on to talk about the potential environmental impact. I note that at that stage, the Minister said:
“Like all taxes, it will also change behaviour to some degree, and to the extent that it makes flying a little bit more expensive, it could be expected to have the effect of diminishing demand for air travel. The lower rates for economy, which takes up more space on aircraft than first class, assist in ensuring that flights are as full as they can be.”––[Official Report, Finance Public Bill Committee, 24 October 2017; c. 114.]
We would find it very helpful to have a review. I take on board the Minister’s point about regular information about the operation of APD, but what we do not have at the moment, to my knowledge—if I am wrong, the Minister can set me right—is an indication of the relative merits of this approach against potential others.
A number of transport economists and environmentalists have looked at the impact of levying duty on entire planes, rather than on individuals. The thought was that that would somehow lead to more incentives for more efficient use of space. I take on board the differential rates for private jets and small planes as against larger planes, which tend to be fuller during economy use, but it would be helpful to know whether there will be more impetus towards more intensive use of planes that are already in the air but all of whose seats are perhaps not being used. For the Opposition, that would be part of the stronger analysis of the impact of the duty, compared with other approaches. It would be part of the more general review that we feel we need on the overall impact of environmental taxes and reliefs, so that we can be sure that they are targeted as well as they can be for both economic and environmental purposes.
There are a couple of other issues on which we need clarification. We had a debate on the first during proceedings on the previous Finance Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) and others raised the matter when they talked about the extent of consultation on existing measures. There are higher rates for long haul in the proposals, as in the existing APD regime, but many Britons have no choice but to travel long haul if their family is in the Caribbean, the Indian subcontinent and so on. The Minister at the time made a commitment to write to my hon. Friend on the extent of consultation with groups of people who might be particularly affected. It would be helpful to have on the record the thoughts of the Minister in Committee on that issue, especially because, in many ways, short-haul flights are a lot easier for people to avoid than long-haul ones, because they can adopt other forms of transport instead. Any indications about that would be useful.
It would also be helpful to have an indication of the Government’s thinking about the extent to which they will be able to protect, or otherwise, revenue from APD. Arguably, we are seeing a race to the bottom on the duty. In previous Finance Bill Committees, we have discussed the new system in Scotland—the air departure tax. Clause 43 increases the band B multiplier in Northern Ireland. From the way in which it is written, I assume that that is happening in the absence of the Stormont arrangements coming back into play and giving the Northern Ireland Assembly control, so we are talking about an increase until the Assembly can make a determination.
Generally, however, the direction of travel appears to be downward, and it would be helpful to know the Treasury’s long-term thinking. We have a lot of pressure from airports, particularly those near Scotland, about whether they can protect their business given the potential reductions in the duty in Scotland. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) has made that point in the House.
Furthermore, we need consideration of the issue, given the discussion we had in the Chamber only a couple of hours ago, when a Minister—I appreciate that it was not the one in Committee, who is well apprised of all the issues relating to air passenger duty—seemed to indicate that we might change the extent to which we levy duty on incoming flights to the UK, departing from the existing practice under EU rules. That might be a possibility, but it would naturally have an impact on revenues. It would be helpful, again, if the Government indicated how the revenue—the £3.1 billion to which the Minister referred—will be protected.
Mel Stride
I need not repeat my earlier remarks about the reviews we already carry out, and I reiterate the point that the new clause, as worded, would implement a review of the possible impact of the taxation we are considering before such taxation had come into effect, which as an exercise is possibly not that valuable. Of course, we always keep all taxes under review. The hon. Lady talked about seeking beneficial behavioural change through mechanisms other than APD, for example. I am happy to receive any representations that she might make in that vein.
The hon. Lady mentioned her colleague, the hon. Member for Luton North, and the impact of APD on passengers who require a long-haul flight to visit relatives. I will certainly get back to her on that when I return to the Treasury. She also mentioned competition between different airports following the devolution of APD. Scotland will in due course bring in its own form of ADT. She also referred to the Northern Ireland situation. It will be for each of those tax jurisdictions to start to take whatever measures they think are appropriate to ensure that their particular airports and passengers are not disadvantaged. I suspect that, as with competing tax rates, the dynamics will probably be for those tax rates to come down, as a result of the competitive effect or the fact that there is a devolved Government. I commend the clause to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 43 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 44
VED: rates for light passenger vehicles, light goods vehicles, motorcycles etc
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Anneliese Dodds
The Opposition have received a submission that it is worth asking a question about. It is about the specific case of taxis that are zero-emission capable. As I understand it, they will be exempt from the VED supplement from 1 April 2019, but not until then. There is the complication that taxis are classified as passenger cars because they are built to carry passengers, rather than as commercial vehicles, although in practice they are not really operating as commercial vehicles, which means that at the moment they are subject to the VED standard rates.
As those of us who have done any casework on this will know, taxi drivers need to purchase their car for a long period and there are complicated financing arrangements. In many areas we are keen to promote zero-emission taxis, or taxis that will be capable of transferring to zero or low-emission bases in future. It would be helpful to hear from the Minister whether some further calibration could be done on this measure, so as not to choke off the development of zero-emission capable taxis. I thought the submission was quite interesting in that regard.
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Lady for her question about taxis. We will publish a consultation this spring, which will clarify who will and will not be eligible for the exemption and address the issues she has raised.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 44 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 45
Tobacco products duty: rates
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 17—Review of changes to rates of duty on tobacco products—
“(1) Within twelve months of the passing of this Act, the Chancellor of the Exchequer must review the effects of the changes made by section 45 to rates of excise duty on tobacco products and the Minimum Excise Tax on cigarettes.
(2) The review under this section must consider—
(a) the effect of the changes on smoking cessation, and
(b) the effect on revenue of the changes in each financial year until 2027-28.
(3) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must lay before the House of Commons the report of the review under this section as soon as practicable after its completion.”
This new clause provides for a review of the effect of changes to duty on tobacco products on smoking cessation and on revenue for each financial year until 2027-28.
Mel Stride
Clause 45 implements changes announced at the autumn Budget 2017 concerning tobacco duty rates. The duty charged on all tobacco products will rise in line with the tobacco duty escalator, with an additional 1% rise for hand-rolled tobacco. Smoking rates in the UK are falling, but they are still too high. Just under 16% of adults are now smokers. We have ambitious plans to reduce that still further, as set out by the Department of Health and Social Care in its tobacco control plan, which includes a commitment to continue the policy of maintaining high duty rates for tobacco products in order to improve public health.
The UK now has comprehensive tobacco control legislation that is the envy of the world, but smoking is still the single largest cause of preventable illness and premature death in the UK—it accounts for around 100,000 deaths per year and kills about half of all long-term users. According to Action on Smoking and Health, smoking costs society almost £14 billion a year in England, including £2 billion in costs to the NHS for treating diseases caused by smoking.
In the autumn Budget, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that the Government are committed to maintaining the tobacco duty escalator until the end of this Parliament. The clause therefore specifies that the duty charged on all tobacco products will rise by 2% above RPI—retail prices index—inflation. In addition, duty on hand-rolled tobacco will rise by an additional 1% this year.
Anneliese Dodds
Labour said that we would prioritise having a special programme focused on young smokers. The point I am trying to make is that the Minister said this was part of a suite of measures, but he only mentioned public health information campaigns in addition, from what I can remember—I will check Hansard to see whether that is correct. The evidence strongly suggests that if we just increase duty, as we are doing now, without that suite of extra measures, we are not going to see the number of people stopping smoking that we really need. We have also seen cuts in trading services, which potentially is enabling more young people to access cigarettes than should be the case. For all those reasons, we urge the Government to review the effectiveness of this measure on overall smoking cessation rates, and we will continue to push for that review.
Mel Stride
The hon. Lady raised the issue of the potential substitution effect in individuals trying to avoid the priced-in tax on cigarettes by purchasing illegal cigarettes, which might increase the amount of illegal trade. I can tell her that tacking illicit tobacco is a key priority for the Government. Since 2000 the UK has adopted a strategic approach, with a wide range of policy and operational responses, in collaboration with other enforcement agencies in the UK and overseas. That effort has achieved a long-term reducing trend in the illicit tobacco market, despite duty rates increasing substantially over the same period. The percentage tax gap for cigarettes was reduced from 22% to 15% and for hand-rolling tobacco from 61% to 28%, so there appears to be some evidence that the substitution effect, or the increase in illicit tobacco coming into the country, is not quite as sensitive to some of the tax rises as one might instinctively imagine.
The hon. Lady asked what other measures the Government are engaged in to try to reduce smoking. As I have said, we are committed to reducing the prevalence of smoking through our tobacco control delivery plan 2017 to 2022, which also provides the framework for robust and ongoing policy evaluation. The plan sets out ambitious objectives to reduce smoking prevalence, including reducing the number of 15-year-olds who regularly smoke from 8% to 3% or less, reducing smoking among adults in England from 15.5% to 12% or less, reducing the inequality gap in smoking prevalence between those in routine and manual occupations and the general population—that touches on her point about the potentially regressive nature of tobacco tax—and reducing the prevalence of smoking in pregnancy from 10.5% to 6% or less.
We will of course continue to keep those measures under constant review. In fact, tobacco and smoking is one of the areas of public policy on which Governments of all colours have placed particular emphasis. There is a huge amount of scrutiny in that area and we will continue in that vein.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 45 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 46
Power to enter premises and inspect goods
Peter Dowd
I beg to move amendment 60, in clause 46, page 40, line 18, at end insert—
“(9A) The powers under subsections (1) to (6) of this section are not available in any case where—
(a) information has been provided on oath by an officer in accordance with section 161A(1) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 (power to enter premises: search warrant) and a justice of the peace has not issued a warrant in consequence, or
(b) an officer could reasonably have been expected to seek a warrant in accordance with the provisions of that section of that Act.”
This amendment provides that the powers to enter premises and search goods may not be exercised in cases where a warrant to search premises in relation to goods subject to forfeiture has been sought and refused or where such a warrant could reasonably be sought.
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution and observations. Clause 46, as he pointed out, extends HMRC’s existing powers, allowing it to examine goods thoroughly away from ports, airports and other approved places that are under customs control. The power is expected to be exercised mainly in situations in which goods have been mis-declared at import and thus the correct amount of duty has not been paid.
Under their current legislative powers, HMRC officers working inland and post clearance are not permitted to examine and take account of customs goods; that includes opening, marking, weighing, loading and unloading them. Under section 24 of the Finance Act 1994, a customs officer has the power to enter the premises of a business that contains goods subject to customs duty, and to inspect those goods. That means that if there is reasonable cause to think that there has been a violation of customs law, an officer is only allowed to pick up and inspect goods visible at those premises. Today, HMRC officers often investigate sophisticated frauds involving customs goods, the majority of which are at inland premises and not within the confines of approved places such as ports and airports. It is therefore essential that officers are empowered not only to enter and inspect, but to examine and take account of goods.
The changes made by clause 46 will extend officers’ powers to examine goods thoroughly post clearance, inland, where a customs offence is suspected. The power covers all customs offences, but current operational experience suggests it will be largely used where goods have been mis-declared at import. The clause will enable officers to examine and take account of goods found on premises. It will allow the officer to mark, move, open or unpack goods or containers, or require a relevant person to provide assistance that is reasonable for the purpose of examining the goods. As the search power is for the purpose of searching containers, boxes and so on and not the premises, a warrant is not needed.
Amendment 60 seeks to deny HMRC those powers in cases where a search warrant has been sought and refused, or where a warrant could reasonably be sought. The purpose of entry under section 24 will be to carry out compliance checks, which will include examining goods to ensure they comply with any paperwork. That cannot be done effectively under the current power, because it only allows the inspection of goods.
Section 24 is not—and is not intended to be—a substitute for seeking a warrant. A warrant will be used when there is a need to enter and search a building or place where there are reasonable grounds to suspect the presence of forfeitable goods. A warrant also grants the power to force open doors and windows and open any obstruction. Unlike section 24, warrants can be used outside of business hours. If a warrant to enter and search a building or place was required and refused, the amendment could not be used to gain access.
We are amending these customs powers to ensure they work effectively, not as a means of unduly expanding customs power. At the moment, officers can merely pick up goods that are immediately visible to them, but on some occasions that is not enough. For example, to ensure that the contents of a box correspond to the relevant paperwork, it is necessary to be able to look inside the box and examine the goods. Under section 24, all visits are strictly regulated. They must be carried out during business hours, and most visits will be pre-booked, routine compliance visits. Officers currently receive training in how to conduct visits, which includes the legal basis and powers available to them. In addition, stringent rules, safeguards and guidance place limitations on an officer’s powers, ensuring that they are used proportionately and only where necessary. That will be updated when the measure is introduced.
The measure will extend the powers available to officers when visiting premises where there are customs goods. It will allow them to take account and examine goods thoroughly, making operational duties more effective. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.
Peter Dowd
We take the Minister’s reassurances and explanation at face value. I am sure he will appreciate that, from that our side, the civil liberties issues are absolutely crucial. We will not be pressing the amendment to a vote but, given the civil liberties issues, we will be keeping a very close watch on the matter. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 46 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 47 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 48
CO2 emissions figures etc
Mel Stride
Clause 48 confirms that for vehicle excise duty and company car tax purposes, the data for a car’s CO2 emissions will continue to be based on the new European driving cycle, or NEDC. As the hon. Gentleman says, NEDC, which is the current testing methodology for producing definitive car emissions values, is being replaced by a new lab test, known as the worldwide harmonised light vehicles test procedure, or WLTP, which is designed to be more representative of normal driving behaviour. For example, it contains more accelerating/decelerating and includes variable-speed driving. At the autumn Budget, it was announced that the Government will transition the tax system to using these improved readings from April 2020. The announcement was made now to give notice to drivers and the industry.
The Government will discuss with the industry next year whether the current CO2 band thresholds in VED and CCT are appropriate. In the interim, this clause clarifies that vehicle taxes will continue to use NEDC values until April 2020. The hon. Member for Bootle asked why we could not use the real-world driving emissions test in the interim. It is used as a complement to lab tests, to check whether cars produce similar emission values on the road as in the laboratory. We could not use the RDE as the primary basis for saving tax bands, because that is not how these tests work; they would not allow us to compare two cars on a like-for-like basis. The changes made by the clause will ensure that drivers’ tax rates are unaffected for vehicle excise duty, company car tax and fuel benefit charges.
Let me turn to amendment 61, which proposes that the Chancellor review the appropriateness of the NEDC regime prior to the clause commencing, and the effects of the change to the WLTP on the Government’s targets for reducing carbon dioxide emissions and on revenue.
I appreciate that Opposition Members want to ensure that the Government continually review the appropriateness of their policies for reducing carbon emissions. However, delaying the commencement of the clause to review the appropriateness of NEDC would be inappropriate, as it would mean that the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency and HMRC would not have clarity about which emissions figures they should use to set tax rates for vehicles. For clarity, I reiterate that NEDC is the established methodology for calculating CO2 values.
Clause 48 is designed to clarify the law. Since September, manufacturers seeking type approvals for new cars have been required to show two different CO2 readings for their vehicles—one produced under the new WLTP test and another consistent with the current NEDC test. We cannot use both numbers for tax purposes. Therefore, to avoid confusion, the clause makes it clear that the DVLA and HMRC will continue to assign tax bands using the current NEDC procedure.
The Government will transition the tax system to the new WLTP test from April 2020. That transition period gives the Government time to consider, in consultation with industry, what the effects of the new system will be and whether the band thresholds remain appropriate in the context of recorded WLTP results. We are actively discussing that topic with industry, and we will announce our decisions at the Budget in the usual way. On that basis, I believe that the amendment is unnecessary, and I ask the hon. Member for Bootle to withdraw it.
Peter Dowd
Again, I appreciate what the Minister has said about keeping this under review, and about the 2020 date. We will keep looking closely at this issue, but on that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 48 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 49 and 50 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Mel Stride
As is traditional on such occasions, I will say a few words about the Committee. I thank everybody who has participated in what has been a full and robust debate at every stage. I particularly thank the Opposition Front Benchers for their contributions and the good humour and levity that has been on display at various points in our proceedings.
I thank the hon. Member for Bootle for his frequent biblical and literary allusions, his classical quotations—a few of which I actually understood, but they were impressive none the less. We concede on this side that there were no Marxist mumblings, for which we were very grateful. At one point, he compared the Labour party to John the Baptist, but then accepted that that did not end very well. We were grateful for his contributions.
I thank the hon. Member for Oxford East for her forensic examination of all issues. It is agreed by popular acclaim, and by Members on both sides of the Committee, that that was impressive to say the least. When serving with her on a particularly memorable Statutory Instrument Committee, I was horrified to discover that she had digested in microscopic detail not only the treaty that we were discussing, but its forerunner as well, and she was able to draw on that experience in our exchanges.
I thank the hon. Member for Aberdeen North, who is not in her place, for her thoughtful contributions and the gentle but firm and persistent way in which she pursued the points that mattered to her.
It is fair to say that we have spent much time together—especially today, what with Treasury questions and the Committee. We have statutory instruments to look forward to, and we will also be engaged in considering the customs Bill. I hope that we do not forget sharing these golden moments. When we retire and Parliament disappears into the dim distance, perhaps we will have some kind of revival band and go out on the road to share our highlights of these occasions with the general public, like a band of ancient rockers who just keep going. Of course, the highlight of all highlights will be the story about the dead dog and the bicycle, which will never fade from our memories.
More seriously, Mr Owen, I thank you and Sir Roger very much for having chaired the Committee with such good humour, patience and impartiality; of course, we take that for granted. I thank the Whips as well. Having served as a Whip, I know how hard they work. They do not often receive much glory, but we are grateful to them for having kept things running so smoothly that the Committee is finishing early.
I thank Back Benchers on both sides of the room for their contributions—some were very good contributions, and there was a wealth of contributions from Members on our side of the Committee—which were gratefully received. I thank the Committee Clerks, Hansard and the Doorkeepers for their good service. I also thank all those who provided evidence to the Committee earlier on.
Almost last but certainly not least, I thank my officials at HMRC and at the Treasury: Dom Curran, Rachel Crade, Harry Pearse, George Houghton and Hugo Popplewell from my private office, all of whom have served and looked after me with great efforts, and to great effect. Finally, I thank parliamentary counsel, with whom I have struggled on this third Finance Bill of the last 12 months. Until we meet again, Mr Owen, thank you very much.
Peter Dowd
I would like to mirror everything that the Minister has said. It is not goodbye but au revoir, as far as I can gather. I thank you, Mr Owen, all Members who have participated, the Minister for his assiduous answers to questions—some of which I never asked—and all my colleagues. I also want to thank my staff and my colleagues’ staff, who have worked hard behind the scenes, while we have taken the credit.