Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Simon Kirby)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen.
I start by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) for securing this debate today. The issues it raises go to the heart of the Government’s economic approach, which is to get our finances in order and to build for the long term-success of the country. I read with great interest my hon. Friend’s paper, produced with the Social Market Foundation; I might indeed consider purchasing it as a small Christmas gift. The objectives that informed his paper are all ones that I share, along with Members on both sides of the House, I am sure: to see the UK’s economy strengthen and grow sustainably in the future.
Let me start by addressing the idea of sovereign wealth funds more generally, because I agree that they can form an important part of any country’s strategy for investing in its future success. Often, they are a way for Governments to manage fiscal surpluses, foreign currency operations or balance of payments surpluses. They can indeed be an effective tool for both planning sustainable investment and managing volatility in receipts. We have seen how they can work well for countries that have large fiscal surpluses. Hon. Members have mentioned Norway’s Government pension fund; there is also Saudi Arabia’s Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency’s foreign holdings fund.
However, we are not debating today the valuable role that sovereign wealth funds play in other countries around the world; we are considering whether such a fund would be appropriate for the UK, and—importantly—appropriate at this time. As the House is fully aware, we are not in the same position as many other countries that have elected to set up such funds. The crucial point is that the UK has not run a surplus since the start of this century, although we are now committed to doing so.
We have chosen the path of a credible fiscal policy that will restore our economy for long-term health, and although we are no longer seeking to deliver that surplus in 2019-20, we remain resolved to do so, to bring our public finances into balance. That is why we have committed once again in the autumn statement to deliver the surplus: we set out our plan to make that happen as soon as possible in the next Parliament, while in the interim bringing cyclically adjusted borrowing below 2% by the end of this Parliament, and getting public sector net debt, as a share of GDP, to fall in this Parliament, too.
I share my hon. Friend’s conviction about the need for strong and sustainable public finances for the UK and I understand his interest in exploring the potential for a British sovereign wealth fund. I agree with the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) that the country should be prepared for a rainy day—sensible advice that we should all listen to. However, given that UK debt will soon be at a 50-year high of 90.2% of GDP, our priority must be to return the public finances to balance and to get the debt falling before we can consider a sovereign wealth fund in more detail. However, although such a fund may not be an appropriate avenue for us to explore at this stage, I will touch on some of the issues that today’s consideration has raised.
One such issue has been our infrastructure. One of the key roles that a sovereign wealth fund can perform is to act as a vehicle to fund sustained investment in infrastructure. Although we may not have a sovereign wealth fund, or even a formal statutory target for the proportion of our GDP that we invest in infrastructure, the Government share my hon. Friend’s conviction about making the infrastructure investments we need that will boost our productivity and strengthen our economy. That is why we have asked the National Infrastructure Commission to make recommendations on the future infrastructure needs of the country.
Once again, I refer all Members to the commitment in the autumn statement, where we prioritised high-value investment in infrastructure and innovation. That included the new national productivity investment fund, with £23 billion of extra spending targeted at high-value projects that will deliver more opportunities and higher living standards for working people—whether that is more homes, better transport links or the 21st-century digital capacity we need.
Ian Blackford
The Minister is setting out why he thinks it is not relevant to set up a sovereign wealth fund today, but does he accept that there was a missed opportunity with the £340 billion bounty that came from North sea oil? That could have been used to establish an oil fund that would have delivered benefits for today and the future.
Simon Kirby
I often say as an MP—I suppose the same is true as a Minister—that it would be nice to have a crystal ball, a magic wand and a time machine. We are where we are, and we have to make the best decisions going forward—rather than looking back in anger, if I may quote the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas).
The additional capital will take public sector net investment to over 4% of GDP for the rest of this Parliament, well above the average of the last 30 years; in real terms, it has been more than 50% higher on average this decade than it was under the whole period of the previous Government.
Another aspect of my hon. Friend’s excellent paper was the suggestion that a new national debt charge be carved out of income tax to help pay down the debt. He will know how much I share his conviction that we need to get debt falling, but I know he also shares the Government’s commitment to helping people who are just about managing. It is important that we build an economy that works for everyone. That is why we would not look to deliver a new income tax charge in our current position. Indeed, as part of the tax lock, we have legislated not to increase the main rates of income tax, national insurance contributions and VAT during this Parliament. Alongside that, we have prioritised an approach to taxation that supports working people, such as our increase in the tax-free personal allowance.
John Penrose
Just to ensure that we are all clear, I clarify that my paper supports what the Minister is describing. The proposal in my paper is that the national debt charge would not start until the budget was in balance and would only equal what we were already going to be paying in debt interest to begin with. I reassure him that I am not suggesting an undercutting or a swerving away from the fiscal rules announced in the autumn statement. Those are essential to get us to the point where the budget is in balance, as he is ably laying out at the moment.
Simon Kirby
I thank my hon. Friend for again demonstrating what a sensible person he is.
The hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) asked about North sea oil and why we did not create a fund in the past. He knows full well that successive Governments made use of the revenue from North sea oil to support public finances in the years when the revenues rose. I can tell him that going forward from April 2017, his Scottish Government will have the powers to contribute to their own reserve fund if they so wish. Perhaps that is something they might consider. We all agree that investment in infrastructure is key to growing the economy. That is why the extra £23.7 billion announced in the autumn statement is important; it takes the total we are spending to £170 billion during this Parliament. That will improve productivity, increase living standards and be an essential part of our plan going forward.
George Kerevan
About half of the extra £23 billion that the autumn statement has put into infrastructure investment is going into housing. How does that raise productivity?
Simon Kirby
Housing does raise productivity. It is a much-needed part of our economy. People need affordable homes to rent or buy. The building process, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware, creates jobs and increases prosperity and productivity.
The hon. Member for Strangford mentioned a shale fund—a suggestion that others have made, too. The UK does not currently meet the criteria of a country that would benefit from a shale wealth fund: we have a high debt and a large deficit, and we do not have extensive commodity or natural resource exports. The development of the shale industry would leave a positive legacy for local communities and regions where it is based. The Government’s policy is for those communities to be able to choose to invest the funds for the long term. I thank the hon. Gentleman, as ever, for making a very thoughtful contribution that added greatly to the debate. [Official Report, 19 December 2016, Vol. 618, c. 9-10MC.]
The hon. Member for Harrow West apologised for not being able to be present during my speech, and I appreciate that. He asked about lifting investment restrictions on the Crown Estate. That is an interesting idea; I will do as he asked and write back to him on that matter.
I thank the hon. Member for East Lothian (George Kerevan), as ever, for his thoughtful contribution. He mentioned inter-generational fairness. I agree that that is an important issue, but at 90% of GDP next year, our debt is just too high. That represents a burden on future generations, and it is important that we retain our focus on our priority of returning the public finances to balance and getting the debt falling. Therefore, it is not possible, and it would not currently be appropriate, for the UK to set up a sovereign wealth fund. He also mentioned taxation levels; I feel duty-bound to remind him that from tomorrow, for the first time, his party—the SNP—will be able to put up taxes in Scotland. The Scottish Government can put their money where their mouth is, if they choose to do so.
John Penrose
The Minister is being generous. I want to pick up on the point he has now made twice: about prioritising the reduction of the overall level of Government debt in the economy once we have eliminated the deficit. I completely applaud that, but does he accept in return that the debt denominated as gilts or as bonds is only part of the overall picture of liabilities that the Government and successive Government have loaded up? A large proportion of the total liabilities—a larger proportion than the actual debt denominated as bonds—is embedded in the state pensions and benefits system. It would be a mistake for any of us to ignore those liabilities. They are equivalent to debt, so at some point we need to face up to the costs that they include, as well as to the ones he is rightly pointing out with the bonds themselves.
Simon Kirby
I thank my hon. Friend for that point, and I accept that the debt is made up of a variety of different things.
I commend my hon. Friend once again for securing the debate, which has been interesting. We have discussed some significant issues for the British economy. There are many areas where he and I are in full agreement, but in closing, I would like to highlight three key aspects.
First, rebalancing our economy is necessary and important. Secondly, dealing with the deficit and getting debt falling is necessary but not sufficient to rebalance the economy. A dynamic and strong economy where growth is shared across all parts of the UK is what we need. Thirdly, on the effectiveness of sovereign wealth funds in various countries, I must repeat our conviction that setting one up is not appropriate for the UK at this point in time when our priority is to get debt falling.
Indeed, as my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare notes in his paper, there is little point in attempting to build up such a fund when debt is at
“its current, historically high levels.”
I share my hon. Friend’s desire to live within our means —the hon. Member for Strangford used the expression “to cut our cloth accordingly”—and to secure our public finances, to get debt falling and to invest sensibly in our future success, which are all important areas that represent core priorities for the Government. Those priorities were reflected in the approach that we outlined in last month’s autumn statement: to build an economy that works for everyone.