18:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 216 / Noes: 281 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss)
I am grateful to the Opposition for securing this important debate today. We have seen extreme weather over the last month, including the highest-ever rainfall in the north-west, record river levels across Lancashire, and Yorkshire rivers such as the Aire a metre higher than they have ever been before. I have every sympathy for all those affected throughout the United Kingdom. To be flooded is a devastating experience at any time, but it is truly terrible at Christmas.
I pay tribute to the emergency services, the military, the Environment Agency, and the other responders and volunteers from across the country who worked around the clock to help. Many of them gave up their Christmases. Through daily Cobra meetings, we ensured that all the necessary resources were deployed early and ahead of the flooding. That meant that the military, the emergency services and the Environment Agency were on the ground and able to provide immediate help. We moved temporary flood barriers to the region, and we moved pumps across the country to support the response effort.
Funding to support the communities, businesses and farmers who were flooded has been provided in record time, within three days of the flooding occurring. Money is now with the local authorities so that they can help people as soon as possible. The Government are determined to do what it takes to put people back on their feet.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is right in saying that money has been distributed very quickly, but there is still some concern among local authorities about exactly what it can be spent on. Will she clarify, for their benefit, what the Bellwin funds can and cannot be spent on?
Elizabeth Truss
As my hon. Friend says, there is Bellwin funding which councils can claim, but there is also the money that we have given them to fund resilience measures for homes and businesses. The money is there to cover the costs that councils have incurred, but it is also there to cover immediate support for residents and businesses. I urge affected residents to contact their councils so that they can receive that support.
Repairs to the Foss barrier in York have been completed, and it is fully operational again. It will now be upgraded with new pumps to ensure that it can cope with higher volumes of water. The flood recovery envoy for Yorkshire, who is with me today, will be producing a plan to repair Tadcaster bridge early next week and will be meeting local residents. That is a national priority.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Secretary of State not accept what is happening with climate change? Once-in-200-year events have now become once-in-100-years events, and it was accepted at the Paris conference that another 2 degrees would probably be added to world temperatures. There is surely no excuse for not investing more and more—even more than we planned to invest following the 2007 Pitt review. Will the Secretary of State urge the Government to invest even more than is proposed under the current agreement?
Elizabeth Truss
In response to weather events that we have not seen before, we are reviewing our national resilience and looking at our climate change models. Climate change is currently baked into our six-year plan, but we clearly need to look at that again in the light of recent events, and we are committed to doing so.
The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) talked about our plans for flood investment, and said that we needed a long-term strategy. The fact is that this Government have introduced the first ever six-year plan for flood defence spending, unlike the Labour party, which ran a year-to-year budget when it was in office. In the run-up to the general election, the hon. Lady’s predecessor refused to match our pledge to increase flood defence spending in real terms. We are spending more, in real terms, than the Labour Government spent between 2005 and 2010, and we are increasing our spending again, in real terms, in this Parliament. The hon. Lady asked about flood maintenance spending. We are spending £171 million on flood maintenance, and, as the Chancellor announced in the autumn statement—before the floods took place—we said that we would protect that too, in real terms. Both those bits of money are protected.
Several hon. Members rose—
Elizabeth Truss
I want to respond to what the hon. Lady has said, but after that I will give way to the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart).
The hon. Lady asked about the £800 million figure from the Environment Agency, which is part of its long-term investment scenario. That analysis is based on total investment, not just central Government spending. It is based on both capital and maintenance spending. If she read the entirety of that report, she would see that it concluded that current spending plans are in line with the optimum levels of investment over the next 10 years. She needs to read the entire report, not just cherry-pick sections of it.
Pete Wishart
The Secretary of State is right: we have to invest for the future. I am grateful she has acknowledged that climate change plays a significant part in the problems we are experiencing. So why are the Government stopping the investment in renewable technologies? Will they review the catastrophic decision to stop the support for onshore wind, a technology that will help us and that we desperately need in Scotland?
Elizabeth Truss
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change is doing an excellent job in achieving affordability for consumers at the same time as hitting the carbon budget targets. She also helped to negotiate a fantastic deal in Paris.
Graham Stuart
There has been a rather tedious backwards and forwards about the money. The fundamentals are that this Government are spending more on flood defence. Once we get over that attempt at point scoring, which sadly comes relentlessly from the Labour party, we can move on to the more important question, which is how the money is spent. Dieter Helm suggests that the thinking behind the spending has not been sufficiently aligned with economic reality. Regardless of who is in power, how do we ensure that we spend the limited money we have on the most effective defence for the maximum number of people and corporate interests, rather than perhaps as now spending it on areas where it cannot be justified?
Elizabeth Truss
My hon. Friend makes a good point. That is exactly why, in December, I reappointed Dieter Helm as chair of the Natural Capital Committee. I did so precisely so that he could look at that issue and ensure that we are spending money holistically across catchments. That is working hand in hand with our 25-year environment plan. Shortly, we will announce the framework for that. That will require a lot of work. There are a lot of people involved: the water companies, the Environment Agency, local communities, farmers and landowners. We can get better value for money. That is why we are moving in that direction and carrying out that work. However, there is a famous Chinese proverb: the best time to plant a tree is 25 years ago and the next best time is today. We do need to plan for the long term but it takes time to ensure that we get everything in order.
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
My right hon. Friend will be aware that chapter 5 of the Paris agreement is about the need to protect forests and to have more trees in the world if we are to tackle some of the problems related to carbon. Does that not also have a relevance for flooding? Does she agree that, as part of the work that she has described, it is important to look at whether we need more tree planting in this country? The House has taken initiatives such as the Westminster wood and the National forest to try to encourage tree planting but perhaps we need more.
Elizabeth Truss
I thank my hon. and learned Friend for his point. I want to make all Members aware that we have a tree-planting scheme for schools at the moment. We are collaborating with the Woodland Trust on that and schools can apply; we are close to the deadline, so people should look that up as soon as possible. It is part of our pledge to plant 11 million trees over this Parliament. Of course, however, we can do more. Dieter Helm will certainly look at that as part of the work of the Natural Capital Committee.
Several hon. Members rose—
Elizabeth Truss
I want to finish the point on the Natural Capital Committee. Members have mentioned the Somerset Rivers Authority. That is a good model for how we get better local engagement, how we get more decisions taken on the ground by people who understand the landscape, and how we look at wider catchment issues. The Floods Minister is developing the Cumbrian flood partnership to do that. We are interested to hear from local areas that want to develop such a scheme.
We need to move to a catchment basis. That is the basis on which our environment plan for 25 years is being developed. We are working on that and we are due to announce the framework towards the middle of the year, with a view to finalising the 25-year plan later on this year. That works closely in conjunction with our 25-year plan for food and farming.
Andrew Gwynne
In the same way as the Secretary of State is looking at a strategic approach to flood defences, could she not make the case for a strategic approach to planning within the floodplains? As I said after the statement and earlier in an intervention, the issue in relation to floodplains often goes beyond one local authority, and planning decisions in one local authority area can affect flooding in several local authorities.
Elizabeth Truss
As I made clear yesterday, it is clear in the national planning policy framework that that needs to be taken into account. Houses should not be built where there is such a flood risk. That is clear in the NPPF.
Several hon. Members rose—
Elizabeth Truss
I will give way to the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner).
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
I am grateful to the right hon. Lady, who has been generous in giving way. She said that in real terms the Government were spending more. Perhaps she could explain to me and to the House her own Department’s “Funding trends” paper of December last year, which shows the total real-terms spending from 2005 right the way through to 2015-16. In the last year of the Labour Government spending was £724 million in total in real terms—that is, in 2015-16 prices. In no single year since then have this Government matched that funding, except in 2014-15, when an extra boost of £140 million emergency funding was given to repair the defences that had been destroyed in the floods. The figures are £608.5 million—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)
Order. The hon. Gentleman is down on my list to speak. I suggest he does not make his speech now.
Elizabeth Truss
As I have already said, if we compare the two Parliaments, the Labour Government spent £1.5 billion and the coalition Government spent £1.7 billion. It is clear to me which of those two numbers is higher.
Several hon. Members rose—
Elizabeth Truss
I have given way on a number of occasions. I now need to make progress to give people an opportunity to speak.
Andrew Percy
Before my right hon. Friend does so, will she give way one more time?
Andrew Percy
I am pleased that my right hon. Friend has given way, given that 20% of England drains through my constituency on the four tidal rivers that meet the Humber estuary. She confirmed yesterday that the £80 million funding that we already have for the next six years is safe and secure. She was asked yesterday about the £1.2 billion bid which, contrary to what the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) said, was rejected not by the Government but by the Environment Agency because it would increase flood risk in my constituency. Will my right hon. Friend commit today from the Dispatch Box to working with Humber MPs cross-estuary so that we can get a revised Humber flood plan together to ensure that we get the defences that we desperately need in the most flood-prone area of England?
Elizabeth Truss
My hon. Friend makes a good point. We do not want schemes that protect part of an area and increase flood risk in other areas. That is the importance of the catchment-wide management system that we are developing. I understand that the Floods Minister is due to meet Humber MPs and I will take a close interest in that matter.
We have set out our programme for the next six years. We are investing £2.3 billion in flood defences. This is a real-terms increase on the £1.7 billion we invested in the last Parliament and an increase on the £1.5 billion spent by Labour. We have made the first-ever commitment to protect maintenance spending as well at £171 million per year, adjusted for real terms. Let us remember why we have the money to invest in these flood defences. Let us remember what happened when Labour left office in 2010. The then Chief Secretary left a note saying, “I’m afraid there is no money.” Labour would not have had the money to invest in flood defences, as we have. At the 2015 general election the Labour party refused to match our pledge of a six-year programme protected in real terms. It is only with a strong economy that we can afford these flood defences. It is only with a long-term plan the we will make our country resilient and give communities the protection they deserve.
Richard Arkless
I was politely offering the hon. Gentleman my office’s assistance if his mother has been affected by the floods, and I do so with the utmost sincerity.
The wording of the motion in relation to Scotland is as follows: it states that the House
“notes with concern the recent decision…to impose a six per cent cut on funding to the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency”,
yet in the last three calendar years culminating in this year there has actually been a cash increase in SEPA funding from £36.4 million in 2012-13 to £39 million in 2015-16. The 6% cut pertains to next year—to the future—and has not affected in any way Scotland’s ability to deal with the travesty of the last week or two. May I remind all colleagues that all budgets across the UK have had to stomach a cut at some level?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rory Stewart)
I am interested to hear that the cut is for next year. Is that because the hon. Gentleman believes that there is less risk of a flood next year?
Richard Arkless
As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, our budget is set by Westminster, not by us. If he bears with me, perhaps I will enlighten him a little bit more.
I am sure that all colleagues will understand that all Departments have had to take a cut of some description since the current UK Government have had a say. The Scottish Government have attempted to protect the SEPA budget in the fairest way possible, while still endeavouring to offer immediate assistance and permanent solutions to all those who have been affected by flooding.
A further point that I should make clear is that SEPA is not responsible for flood prevention in Scotland, which is the responsibility of local authorities with the support of the Scottish Government. We believe in Scotland that local authorities are best placed to devise flood protection, and the Scottish Government will support them in any way they possibly can. Indeed, the Scottish Environment Minister told me recently that our Government have never refused funding for a flood defence on the basis of cost. Other elements of flood spending, such as on the Scottish flood forecasting service, are protected in their entirety until 2020 and will not be subject to any cuts. Good flood defence is not only about how much is spent but about how we choose to spend it.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Newark (Robert Jenrick) said that we should not play a blame game. The floods were unprecedented, but they were not unpredicted. It is the job of the official Opposition to hold the Government to account. We have listened to hon. Members backslapping in the Chamber this afternoon, saying, “We have learnt the lessons. We were quick in the response,” but that is not the point. The point is that this is a national tragedy that, according to KPMG, is likely to cost the country £5 billion, £2 billion of which will simply repair the existing defences and restore them to their pre-flood inadequate level. Twelve years of the entire 2014 maintenance budget of £171 million will be squandered. So, follow the money. In the last full year of the Labour Government we spent £633.1 million in cash, £703.4 million at 2015-16 prices.
Rory Stewart
Will the hon. Gentleman please expand on where this £2 billion figure for repairing flood defences comes from? I have no recognition of the figure whatsoever.
Barry Gardiner
It comes from KPMG.
In 2010-11, we spent £670.1 million in cash, £724.4 million in today’s prices. In no year since then did this Government exceed that in either cash or real terms until last year, when they put in emergency funding of £140 million to repair the damage done by the 2013-14 floods. Without that emergency money, the budgeted figure was only £662.6 million. Again, that figure is lower. If the Minister wants to check where it comes from, I can tell him that it comes from his own DEFRA figures on his own website. That emergency money cannot be equated with normal maintenance. We are talking of wholesale repairs, rebuilding bridges and floodwalls after they have been destroyed. Most people would say that when someone repaints the windows of their house or repoints the chimney stack that that is maintenance, but when a bulldozer slams into their living room that is a disaster. Only this Government appear to count the rebuilding of the living room as normal maintenance. It is not. That is the con trick—the smoke and mirrors that the Government are using. Instead of congratulating themselves on spending that money in the first and only year in which they spent more than we did in 2010-11, the Government should be apologising for cutting the programme so badly.
In 2014, the Government’s long-term investment scenarios report recommended an optimum overall investment—the Secretary of State was right to point out that it was an overall investment—of £750 million to £800 million a year. If that were to be achieved, the Government would need to spend £417 million a year on maintenance, which is also in her report. That adds up to a £2.5 billion gap in flood defence spending between 2015 and 2021, exactly as my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State said.
Grouse moors and sheep farming lead water to run straight off hills into populated valleys. Burning back heather reduces areas of peat and the ground’s ability to retain water. Climate change affects how much rain falls and how much water ends up in our towns and cities. That is our problem. We need catchment management and we absolutely need to see what the Natural Capital Committee will do and what it will advise the Government, but we must take on board the fact that land can no longer ignore the public good that it must provide. The grouse moor economy brings £100 million a year into this country, but its cost is incalculable. The Minister must take note and sort this out.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
We have heard already that David Rooke, deputy chief executive of the Environment Agency, recently called for a “complete rethink” in our approach to flooding. I could not agree more. More than an entire month’s rainfall fell in a single day on one Saturday in early December, resulting in many of the main rivers across Cumbria exceeding their highest levels ever recorded. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) said, the Government appear to have been caught short by the changing weather.
The extensive flooding that followed at the end of December and into the new year across Cumbria as well as in Lancashire, Yorkshire, north-east England and throughout much of Scotland confirmed that building higher walls will not, on its own, provide the protection that our towns and cities need. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people in the north of the country and in Scotland who have seen with their own eyes the evidence that the Government have not done enough. We should not overlook how sick they are of the Government’s excuses. Let us not forget that areas of Cumbria assessed as having a one-in-100 years’ chance of such flooding have experienced these events three times in the past decade.
Similarly, people are tired of the frantic efforts to persuade the public that spending is greater now than it was under the previous coalition and Labour Governments that went before them. As my hon friend highlighted, the Government are constantly chirping about their £2.3 billion of capital spending over six years, but their attempts to defend their record over the previous Parliament will not wash. Analysis from the National Audit Office has confirmed that, between 2010 and 2011 and 2013 and 2014, capital funding fell by 18% in cash terms. Were it not for the emergency funding after the floods hit, total funding would have fallen by 10% in real terms during the previous Parliament.
In 2007, the Labour Government announced an ambitious target of £800 million per year in flood defence spending by 2011, and spending actually increased by 27% between 2007 and 2008 and 2009 and 2010, reaching £633 million, with £766 million budgeted for in 2010-11. What was the Prime Minister’s first action on flood defences when he came to power in 2010? Yes, he handed out a £96 million cut in the budget, leaving the Government lagging behind thereafter and struggling to keep pace. According to the House of Commons Library, subsequent years’ spending was hundreds of millions below what the Environment Agency said it needed, even when the extra millions in response to the tragic floods in Somerset are considered. The Secretary of State said earlier that others have contributed to make up the difference. I ask the Minister who has made these contributions and how much have they contributed to the overall budget.
While money was no object for the Prime Minister a couple of years ago, it does seem to be an object now. As we have heard from hon. Friends, on three separate occasions today he refused to confirm that he will fund the full Leeds flood defence scheme. The hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) told us that that project had been over-engineered, but we still need action, and we need it now. The Prime Minister has no excuse for the failure to act on the upgrading of the Foss barrier several years ago, yet he seemed pleased with himself today when he said that the work is now being tendered—little consolation for those who saw the waters invade their homes.
The Government are even less enthusiastic about revealing precisely how much of the capital spending is simply maintaining existing flood defences at their current level without providing increased protection. As the Committee on Climate Change has identified and the events of recent weeks have confirmed, the impacts of a changing climate will see defences that might otherwise provide protection against a one-in-100-year flood provide a much lower level of protection, risking their being overtopped more frequently.
Hon. Members on both sides of the House have spoken on a number of different issues. There has been much praise for volunteers, local authority workers, the military, and the Environment Agency. A great example came from my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Holly Lynch), who talked about the pop-up charity shop providing goods but also raising cash for victims. All this is Britain at its best.
I am glad that the hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) talked about the small communities affected, because many of them feel abandoned. I am looking forward to my meeting with the Minister, I believe next week, to talk about the proposals to help smaller communities. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) talked about the River Aire and spoke of businesses ruined. Sometimes we forget that jobs are lost as a direct result of these things, with machinery ruined and insurance protection not really in existence.
The hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans) spoke of a field under flood where planning permission has already been granted for more housing development. I wonder what mitigation is in place for the houses that are going to be built there and on the other floodplains where housing has permission to be built. My hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Sue Hayman) also spoke about floodplain development, as well as insurance, which was covered by other Members.
I was interested to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) talk about the threat to health services in Cumbria—we know how remote places there can be. He also mentioned the potential damage to the oncoming tourist season. It is not just people’s holidays that are going to be lost, but people’s livelihoods as well.
My hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) referred to Members saying how great the response had been, and it was, but the spending on that response has been counted as maintenance whereas in fact it was repairing damage.
As I argued in the House during the debate on the Housing and Planning Bill only yesterday, we need measures aimed at prevention as well as at defence. The havoc and devastation that have engulfed vast swathes of the northern regions is testament to that, underlining the need for in-built resilience when new developments are planned and constructed. The Minister for Housing and Planning said that sufficient legislation is in place, yet we continue to see planning permissions for floodplain development and no real requirement on developers to build into their schemes the measures needed in the immediate and longer term.
The commitment from the Secretary of State to revisit the modelling used by the Environment Agency and to review its fitness for purpose off the back of these repeated unprecedented weather events, as well as to a national flood resilience review that will update worst-case-scenario planning, is welcome, if not overdue. What are the timescales for this review? When we can we expect some outcomes and some news?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rory Stewart)
May I begin by paying tribute to the debate, which has been very detailed and serious and has properly reflected the fact that this has been a very unusual and very complex situation? The hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) talked about the unprecedented nature of the rainfall. As has been said repeatedly, every kind of record has been broken, including those for rainfall in 24 and 48 hours and that for rainfall in a month.
As right hon. and hon. Members across the House have emphasised, it has been the most extraordinary and horrendous experience for people. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) for highlighting the impact on the Traveller community in York Central, who are among thousands of people affected—we now know that more than 12,000 separate homes were affected by this extraordinary experience.
The emergency services have been astonishing. The hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) has paid tribute to the fire and rescue service. We should also pay tribute to the police gold commanders and the sergeants and policemen standing on the streets, in the rain, day in, day out, securing the safety of communities, and to the Army, from the company sergeant-major standing in the streets of Appleby and the 100 men clearing out houses, to the commanding officer of the Light Dragoons working his way up and down the Calder valley. We also note the work of the Environment Agency and people such as Adrian and Phil, who struggled with the problems with electricity to the Foss barrier, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) has said, the actions of councils up and down the country. The council response has been fantastic
The hon. Members for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) and for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) paid tribute to the Muslim communities, which in their different way have contributed, as have the Sikh and Hindu communities. In the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson), I saw church representatives out with hot cross buns at 4.30 in the morning. We also note the sea cadets standing up to their waists in rain water, as well as mountain rescue, the boats and Team Rubicon, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams). Moreover, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans) has pointed out, we also note the thousands of anonymous members of the public who got out of their cars and then continued on their journeys.
I also want to take a small moment to pay tribute to Members of Parliament themselves. On that first evening, I saw the hon. Member for Workington (Sue Hayman) out on the streets of Cockermouth. I saw the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) working with the Methodist Church, and my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle working from dawn to dusk. I also saw the hon. Member for York Central and my hon. Friends the Members for Selby and Ainsty and for Shipley, as well as colleagues in St Michael’s and at Hebden Bridge—and they are just the Members of Parliament I happened to see as I worked my way around the country.
I also pay tribute to the Flood Forecasting Centre and the work done by the Met Office, which gave us the important warning. That was also central for our colleagues in the devolved Administrations. The floods in 1953-54 killed 450 people, and one of the reasons we have been more fortunate this time is that we have the warning systems in place.
In the short time available to me, I want to touch on some of the issues raised by right hon. and hon. Members in relation to recovery. Elland bridge was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker) and the hon. Member for Halifax (Holly Lynch). I reassure them that we are working very hard, particularly on the telecoms challenges in relation to that bridge. My hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty raised the issue of Tadcaster bridge. I reassure him that we have been able to get Balfour Beatty to work for the next three days. We have located a temporary footbridge, which will be put in place.
The hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) raised the issue of the A591. For the first time ever, Highways England has agreed to take over, from beginning to end, the project management of a county council road, and it will deliver that in the quickest time possible.
The hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes) mentioned the challenges with regard to electricity. My hon. Friends the Members for Carlisle and for Calder Valley raised the challenges for schools. I am pleased that the Secretary of State for Education will be there to deal with those issues herself. My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley mentioned household grants and the hon. Member for Rochdale raised some of the challenges for businesses. I am pleased that the Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise, who is in her place, is addressing that problem directly. The hon. Member for Workington raised the issues in respect of insurance, which we are dealing with along with the Association of British Insurers.
I want to set all the other issues in context in the very limited time available. Whether, like the many right hon. and hon. Members from Leeds, we are talking about specific defences; fairness in other parts of the country, as was raised by the hon. Members for Dumfries and Galloway (Richard Arkless), for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Stuart Blair Donaldson) and for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott) and my hon. Friends the Members for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng), for Newark (Robert Jenrick) and for Newbury (Richard Benyon); the unintended consequences raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy); building on floodplains, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) and the hon. Member for Workington; the challenges of culverts, which were raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley; the disagreements about dredging, which were evident in the conflict between my hon. Friends the Members for Ribble Valley and for Newbury; farmland, which was raised by the hon. Member for Workington; upstream alleviation, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury; forestry, which was raised by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts); or the overall strategy, which has been pushed hard by the hon. Member for Copeland, we come again and again to the importance of having an independent objective judgment by the Flood Forecasting Centre and the Environment Agency that is respected by this House.
These decisions cannot be made through party politics. The resources must be allocated on the basis of flood risk, the number of households that will be protected, the position of those households on the deprivation index, the businesses that will be affected, the agriculture that will be affected, and the impacts on productivity, infrastructure and electricity. Those issues of cost and complexity will be central to the debate.
Rory Stewart
I am afraid that I have only a minute and a half to go, but I am happy to continue the discussion with well-informed Members such as the hon. Gentleman.
Perhaps a hundred different arguments have been raised in the House today, but to come to a close, there seem to be four main conclusions to be drawn from this debate. The first is that in an emergency situation, we must, above all, act decisively. We must think big and we must think early. It was very important that the Environment Agency moved 85% of its assets up immediately. The Cobra meeting was held on 23 December, even when there was uncertainty about the floods, to deal with an issue that would come up on Boxing day. The military deployed immediately.
The second thing to be taken from the debate is the importance of understanding and compassion. This can become a technocratic debate about numbers, but it is really about the horror that is experienced in individual households. Our ability to listen to those households will be central to our ability to go forward.
The third lesson from this debate is one of humility. We are dealing with extraordinary issues of climate and uncertainty. We are breaking records in a way that has never been seen before in this country. There needs to be a joint cross-party response that is not limited to this House, but that reaches out to the very best scientists, commentators, experts and members of the Environment Agency who are available to deal with the challenge.
Finally, this debate is about localism. It is about local knowledge. Every scheme and every response needs to respond to local knowledge. In one community it might be about dredging, in another it might be about a pump, in another community it will be about the clearing of trees and in another it will be about upland storage. We need to look at what we are doing with forestry and what we are doing with peatland restoration. We need to understand that some schemes take 25 or 50 years to succeed, but that they should be undertaken nevertheless. As the Secretary of State said, we need to start the 25-year planning now.
Whatever our other disagreements, this country has responded very well to the emergency nature of the floods. There has been a good emergency response in Scotland, a good emergency response in Wales, a good emergency response in Northern Ireland and, I believe, a good emergency response in England. The only way in which we can go forward is with the utmost seriousness—seriousness about science, seriousness about evidence and seriousness about the formulas we use to allocate the funding in a way that is fair to the entire United Kingdom. If we get that determination correct, I believe that we can move forward with the humility and attention to local detail that will allow us to deal with perhaps one of the most serious crises of our generation.
Question put,