Baroness Gale
To ask Her Majesty’s Government to what extent the draft Wales Bill secures powers for the National Assembly for Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth)
My Lords, the draft Wales Bill will deliver a stronger Wales in a strong United Kingdom. The new reserve powers model will provide a clear devolution boundary between what is reserved and what is devolved. The draft Bill also strengthens Welsh devolution by devolving important new powers over energy, transport, local government and Assembly elections.
Baroness Gale (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his reply. However, I am sure he is aware of the concerns in Wales about the draft Wales Bill. Will the Minister agree to meet Welsh Government Ministers to listen to their views on the draft Bill? They suggest that the current Assembly powers will introduce an effective Westminster ministerial veto over Welsh laws. Surely he is aware of that concern. I know that the draft Bill is going through the Commons at the moment, but will he meet Ministers in Wales to discuss these difficulties?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right: the Bill is still in draft form. It will undergo pre-legislative scrutiny and be introduced into the Commons early next year. Discussions are going on about the Bill almost as we speak—the Secretary of State is in Cardiff today, for example. As I understand it, constructive discussions are going on between officials and Ministers.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
The Constitutional Reform Act 2005 requires the Supreme Court selection committee to,
“ensure that between them the judges will have knowledge of, and experience of practice in, the law of each part of the United Kingdom”.
Of the 12 Supreme Court Justices, two are Scottish and one is Northern Irish. The Lord Chief Justice—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, with whom I am occasionally confused—stands in from time to time. Will the Minister undertake to amend the draft Wales Bill to ensure that one seat will always be reserved for a Justice with experience of the practice of the law in Wales and, since the laws are passed by the Welsh Assembly in two languages, knowledge of the Welsh language? Such a judge could act as a mediator in any dispute between the Welsh Government and the UK Government as to legislative competence.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, that almost sounded like a job application. I know that the noble Lord is very proficient in the law and in Welsh. At the moment, it is done on an informal basis, but the noble Lord has a serious point, which no doubt will be taken forward as the draft Bill proceeds.
Lord Elis-Thomas (PC)
My Lords, this is not a job application, as the Minister knows. Is he aware that the National Assembly for Wales’s constitutional and legislative affairs committee will continue to adopt subsidiarity, clarity, simplicity and workability as the scrutiny tests for this Bill? Will Her Majesty’s Government listen to the committee’s reports, as the First Minister of Wales has done?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
The noble Lord is quite right about the role of that committee of the National Assembly for Wales. It does very good work and of course it will be listened to. As I understand it, the Secretary of State will be giving evidence to the committee to discuss the Bill. I emphasise that the Bill is in draft form at the moment.
Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)
My Lords, the Welsh Government suggest that only five of the 19 Welsh Government Bills that are now Acts could have proceeded to Royal Assent had the new draft Bill’s provision been in place, either because they would now be outside the limits of the Assembly’s power, or because new UK ministerial consent obligations would have had to be satisfied first. Does the Minister accept that, as the draft Bill stands, the newly proposed reserved powers model of governance has been written in such a restrictive way that it will curtail the Assembly’s current power and lead to an even greater potential for legal conflict between Westminster and Wales?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, the noble Baroness will not be surprised to hear, as we had a brief discussion on this issue, that I do not accept that. I do not think that that is the case. The First Minister and the Secretary of State are looking at this very closely. It is the case that if a piece of legislation in Wales has an effect in England—for example, adoption agencies set up in England—then it will need the consent of this House. Similarly, if we wanted to do something in Wales in a devolved area, we would need the consent of Wales. That is not unreasonable. Discussions are ongoing; this is in only draft form.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, the issue of Crown consent has already proved very controversial. The Schedule to the draft Bill reveals how complex the current settlement has been from the start. Does the Minister agree that there is a strong case for simplifying Welsh devolution, and in the process allowing some additional powers for the Assembly beyond those already specified in the Bill, which are very welcome?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, the noble Baroness has great experience and has done a tremendous amount in relation to this Bill. I recognise that and pay tribute to her. If there is one thing I have learned over the last generation, it is this: Welsh devolution is not simple.
Lord Kinnock (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that the paradoxes and concerns highlighted again this morning in Questions and Answers in this House demonstrate the absolutely compelling need in Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland for a comprehensive constitutional convention, as requested on this side of the House and that side, and, indeed, by all thinking people, in which number I would like to include him?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I am grateful to the noble Lord for the compliment. It is true that there is a great danger that we do things piecemeal and do not look at the whole. That is a point well made. Obviously in relation to this Bill we are looking at the position in Scotland, Northern Ireland and, indeed, England as we proceed to try to take account of that. The noble Lord makes a powerful point: at some stage we will have to ensure that all these pieces of the jigsaw fit well together.
Lord Morgan (Lab)
My Lords, there are many good things in the draft Wales Bill that will be widely welcomed, but is not the problem that the St David’s Day declaration earlier in the year aroused expectations and stated that reserved powers would be transferred en bloc to the Welsh Assembly? Hitherto, the draft Wales Bill does not appear to ensure that. Should we not clear this up to avoid a serious crisis?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I greatly respect the noble Lord’s work in this area. Even designing a reserved powers model is a complex issue, because something has to be on the other side of the line. It is important that we get it right, but that is why discussions are ongoing at official and ministerial level.
Lord Richard (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord will know that some years ago I had the pleasure—indeed, the honour—of chairing a commission that looked at the governmental arrangements in Wales and made certain recommendations. Having looked at the Wales Bill, which it seems to me is of fiendish complexity, I do not recognise the Bill that is now coming before Parliament as fulfilling the recommendations made by the Richard commission as long ago as 2002.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, it is fair to say, as the noble Lord reminds us, that that was a very important report. The noble Lord presented a unanimous report, apart from a dissenting letter from the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, who is not in his place at the moment. We are taking forward some of those proposals, such as some of the procedures—I do not have the details in front of me—relating to Assembly numbers and electoral arrangements, which will now be a matter for the Assembly to decide. No doubt these can be flushed out during the draft legislative stage of the Bill.