High Speed Rail (London–West Midlands) Bill
(10 years ago)
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Baroness Kramer
Carry-over of Bill into Session 2014–15
(1) That if a High Speed Rail (London–West Midlands) Bill is brought from the House of Commons in Session 2014–15, the Standing Orders of the House applicable to the Bill, so far as complied with or dispensed with in this Session, shall be deemed to have been complied with or (as the case may be) dispensed with in Session 2014–15.
Case where Bill first brought from Commons in Session 2014–15
(2) That if-
(a) a High Speed Rail (London–West Midlands) Bill is brought to this House from the House of Commons in Session 2014–15, and
(b) the proceedings on the Bill in this House are not completed in Session 2014–15,
further proceedings on the Bill shall be suspended on the day on which that Session ends until the first Session of the next Parliament (“Session 2015–16”).
(3) That if, where paragraph (2) applies, a bill in the same terms as those in which the High Speed Rail (London–West Midlands) Bill stood when it was brought to this House in Session 2014–15 is brought from the House of Commons in Session 2015–16-
(a) the proceedings on the bill in Session 2015–16 shall be pro forma in regard to every stage through which the bill has passed in Session 2014–15;
(b) the Standing Orders of the House applicable to the bill, so far as complied with or dispensed with in this Session or in Session 2014–15, shall be deemed to have been complied with or (as the case may be) dispensed with in Session 2015–16; and
(c) if there is outstanding any petition deposited against the bill in accordance with an order of the House-
(i) any such petition shall be taken to be deposited against the bill in Session 2015–16 and shall stand referred to any select committee on the bill in that Session; and
(ii) any minutes of evidence taken before a select committee on the bill in Session 2014–15 shall stand referred to any select committee on the bill in Session 2015–16.
Case where Bill first brought from Commons in Session 2015–16
(4) That where paragraphs (2) and (3) do not apply but a High Speed Rail (London–West Midlands) Bill is brought from the House of Commons in Session 2015–16, the Standing Orders of the House applicable to the Bill, so far as complied with or dispensed with in this Session or in Session 2014–15, shall be deemed to have been complied with or (as the case may be) dispensed with in Session 2015–16.
Other
(5) The reference in paragraph (2) to further proceedings does not include proceedings under Standing Order 83A(8) (deposit of supplementary environmental information).
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD)
My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Lord Richard (Lab)
My Lords, I want to speak before the House moves to a vote on this. The noble Baroness is moving a highly complicated Motion that deals with three potential situations—one in which a Bill comes up this Session, one in which a Bill comes up next Session and one in which a Bill comes up after the next general election. In those circumstances, I think the noble Baroness owes it to the House to explain a little further the rationale for the three propositions.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, I also wish to take part in a debate on this. The Clerk of the Parliaments very kindly confirmed to me in an e-mail that this is a debatable Motion and therefore, we can discuss it. We are not discussing today the merits or demerits of HS2, of which I am in favour, as it happens. But this is a procedural Motion. When I saw that the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, would be moving the Motion I wondered why. That is no disrespect to the noble Baroness who is a very good Minister, but surely this is a procedural Motion which should be dealt with if not by the Leader of the House then certainly by the Chief Whip so that we can have a proper explanation of its implications.
I take part in the Lord Speaker’s outreach programme. I go to schools and talk about what this House does—that we consider and amend legislation, hold the Government to account and debate the issues of the day. I must say that I am beginning to feel a wee bit of a fraud in terms of holding the Government to account when we have just returned from a four-week Easter Recess. Whatever the Leader of the House said earlier, it was much longer. I have never known a four-week Easter Recess, either when I was in the other House or in this House. Then, from next week, we will be off for another three weeks. That does not seem to me to be the way to do things.
Noble Lords may wonder what this has to do with a carry-over Motion. What I want to point out is that this Motion is typical of what the Government are doing in trying to sideline Parliament. Increasingly, they are treating Parliament as a rubber stamp. Noble Lords will see that the heading for this business is:
“Business expected to be brief”.
The Government want to rush it through, yet it is debatable and we can discuss it. As my noble friend Lord Richard just said, it raises issues of particular significance. All carry-over Motions are significant because legislation can be moved from one Session of Parliament to another. But having looked at previous carry-over Motions, as I understand it, this one is unique and of particular significance because it will carry a Bill over not just from one Session of Parliament to another, but from one Parliament to the next. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, who understands these issues, is nodding wisely.
I have some questions which I hope the Minister will be able to answer. I warned her yesterday that I would put these questions to her. First, why did she not feel it right to give the House an explanation at the start? Increasingly things are being moved and passed on the nod. Surely, when it is a matter of significance, the Minister should feel obliged to get up and explain why something is being done. It may be that one or two people in the usual channels understand what this is about, but with respect, every Member of the House should be made aware of what is happening.
Secondly, I hope that the Minister will explain why there is such a rush. Why do we need it now? I first saw this when I looked at the future business of the House online at the end of the Easter Recess. Many colleagues have told me that they did not see it until they arrived here on Tuesday, only two days ago. That is not enough time for Members to consider its implications properly. Why the rush? Could this not be held over? Does the Minister really need to push it through today?
The most important question of all is this: what are the implications? It is the question that was put by my noble friend Lord Richard. What kind of precedent will it set? Can this kind of procedure be used for any Bill or just for Bills dealing with infrastructure projects such as HS2?
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
I am most grateful to the noble Lord. Can he tell me whether he has asked his own Front Bench these questions? Surely his colleagues have agreed to this procedure? Why does he have so little faith in the judgment of his own colleagues?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I have great respect for the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and I am really grateful to him for that intervention—really grateful—for two reasons. The first is that I spent an hour yesterday with the Leader of the Opposition, the Chief Whip and others discussing this very issue. It was also discussed at our group meeting last night. Our Chief Whip said that he was not consulted about the tabling of this Motion. Others can confirm that he said that at our meeting. So I hope that we will get some answers to these questions.
When we discuss the future of the House of Lords—our group is considering a report on changes to the House—I hope that more and more Members will feel that we have an obligation to question and challenge some of the things that are simply put on the table for us to rubber stamp. We must show that the Executive and the Government are going to be scrutinised by Parliament. I can then go into schools as part of the Lord Speaker’s outreach programme and talk with clarity and honesty, feeling that I am absolutely right when I say that Parliament does have a real job in scrutinising the Executive.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, as my noble friend has been kind enough to mention the Opposition Front Bench, I should indicate that of course we support this Motion and regard it as a formal occasion. My noble friend will recognise that the Motion relates to a difficult and complicated Bill which is also a hybrid Bill. We have absolutely no idea of the length of time that will be taken to discuss it. If my noble friend is keen to accelerate the proceedings, perhaps he might put himself forward as a volunteer for the hybrid Bill in order to guarantee progress.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I am not volunteering for that, although I will discuss it with my noble friend later. Does he agree that what he has just said about the hybridity of the Bill should have been said by the Minister in a proper introduction?
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab)
My Lords, I will intervene very briefly. I continually argued in the Commons, when I was involved in the usual channels, that we needed to find a different procedure for this sort of highly technical and potentially extremely lengthy Bill, which involves and engages a small number of Members for an inordinate amount of time. It is not quite so bad in this House, because we do not have representational responsibilities in the way that Members in the Commons do, but it is an arcane procedure. I tried to get the clerks and the legal people in the other place to think about this much more.
This is now the most significant—and will be the longest and most technical and difficult—Bill that either House will have seen for many a long year, and I wonder whether the Government have thought of any other procedures or ways of dealing with it. It puts Members in a really difficult position, too, because of interests such as whether they travel on the train and whether they have ever met the owners of the track, the trains or whatever. It is an incredibly difficult procedure to get Members involved in and it really is about time.
While I am on my feet, I am bewildered why the business of the House is not organised more effectively more regularly. When I used to have weekly meetings in the Commons with my noble friend Lord Grocott, who has just left the Chamber, he used to be absolutely clear with me about what we could and could not do so that Members knew when they would be here and when they would not. I suspect that if we as a Government had changed the Queen’s Speech at the last moment, the then Opposition would have gone berserk. We really need a bit more organisation in the way that the business of this House is conducted.
Lord Elton (Con)
This may be a matter for the Procedure Committee in the long term but we have an immediate issue. I remind the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that the objectors to the Bill and those who have an interest do not wish to be summoned twice to repeat their evidence. There is a very pressing argument in that respect for carrying forward at this stage.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, we are dealing with a Bill that is already in the other place. This is a standard Commons practice for hybrid Bills, because they are, as other noble Lords have said, so much longer and so much more complex than a typical public Bill. To give your Lordships reassurance that there is precedent for much of this, the Channel Tunnel Rail Link Bill was carried over two Prorogations and the Crossrail Bill was carried over two Prorogations and a Dissolution for a general election.
We face a Prorogation, which most of us expect quite shortly, so it is important, as the Bill is in the Commons, that we have a carryover in place. We also, for the first time, know when the next general election will occur because we have a fixed-term Parliament. We are in a position now to be able to do the carryover, as the Commons has done, to cover that known event at the same time. As other noble Lords have said, this is actually rather important, especially for the petitioners, because it gives them comfort and the knowledge that they will not have to resubmit the evidence that they have worked hard to pull together to present their case, as is entirely appropriate.
I hope the House will understand that this is a formal procedure; that the equivalent procedure has already passed in the Commons; and that it is particularly of assistance to people who wish to petition—I think all of us wish to give them the maximum support that we can. However, it does follow precedent, and the particular feature of a fixed-term Parliament gives us the capacity to provide additional certainty that we might not have been able to without a fixed-term Parliament. So I hope very much that the House will provide its support.