Crime and Courts Bill [HL]
(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Rosser
“(6A) In the UK Borders Act 2007, in section 48 (establishment) after paragraph (2)(b) insert—
“(c) practice and procedure in facilitating the entry into the UK of all bona fide EU and other passport holders, in monitoring of waiting times for processing of incoming passengers at fixed control points, and in processing passengers on international train services between the nearest stations served on each side of the border.””
Lord Rosser
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Berkeley is not here but I will take the opportunity to move his amendment, if only to hear the Minister’s reply. This amendment seems to address some of the concerns covered in the previous group, but relates to international rail services and the problem of delays to passengers on the Eurostar services caused by new immigration controls. It also sets out how that might be addressed. The amendment contains a number of proposals and appears to suggest a policy of facilitating and welcoming visitors rather than treating everyone in perhaps a less than friendly manner as a result of some of the delays which I understand occur on the Eurostar services at both Brussels and St Pancras. The amendment also refers to the monitoring of waiting times to process incoming passengers at fixed control points. It also talks about processing passengers on international train services between the nearest stations served on each side of the border.
I believe rather than know that there have been meetings between my noble friend Lord Berkeley and the Minister in which the issue of processing passengers on the train—which is perhaps a rather unfortunate phrase—might have been raised. The amendment also raises that issue. We are now part of an expanding high-speed rail network with the introduction of new routes using the Channel Tunnel and the prospect of new operators entering the field.
I think that I am right in asserting that there are significant issues with delays, certainly with Brussels-to-London traffic, which I think are caused in part by double passport checks on passengers at both Brussels and St Pancras, where, I am told, delays can be over an hour. If that statement is right—and I am sure that the Minister will correct me if it is not—it could be damaging to our image as a country and to our economy as it would have an adverse effect on tourism and on the UK as a base for new and expanding businesses.
I am absolutely sure that my noble friend Lord Berkeley would have had a great deal more to say, and that he would have said it an awful lot more effectively than I have, but if I am right in saying that the Minister has had meetings with him, I hope that the Minister will also be able to say where we are on the issue. Perhaps he could also say whether the issue of processing passengers on the train was raised with a view to eliminating some of the delays that are currently occurring. I beg to move.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, I will be relatively brief on this. I can give an assurance to the noble Lord that I have discussed this with his noble friend Lord Berkeley. I also welcome him back to this Bill from his travails on the Civil Aviation Bill. This amendment is, in effect, about the remit of the chief inspector. I think that I can give the noble Lord an assurance that this is all largely dealt with by Section 48 of the UK Borders Act 2007. I have a copy of Section 48 and could go through it in some detail but I do not think that the noble Lord or the rest of the Committee would welcome that. I will just say that the remit of the chief inspector is adequately dealt with in that and he can cover all those matters.
As the noble Lord said, I have had a meeting with his noble friend Lord Berkeley at which we discussed a number of issues, particularly the so-called Lille loophole; the problems coming into St Pancras, problems that we are aware are likely to get much worse when other services, such as the German trains, start coming in, just because of the physical layout of St Pancras; and how we deal with that. We also discussed—again, this is very important—the possibility of using immigration officers on the train to deal with the particular problems that the noble Lord quite rightly highlighted. That is something that we will have to look at for the future, beyond 2015, which is when Deutsche Bahn is likely to start bringing trains in.
Lord Rosser
I will be brief. I thank the Minister for his reply which I am sure will be read by my noble friend Lord Berkeley with interest and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Henley
(c) in connection with the prevention, investigation or prosecution of any of the following offences (insofar as that does not involve the exercise of a function which falls within paragraph (a) or (b))—(i) an offence under section 26(1)(a), (b) or (g) of the Immigration Act 1971 (refusal or failure to submit to examination or to furnish information etc, or obstruction of immigration officer);(ii) an offence under section 22 of the UK Borders Act 2007 (assaulting an immigration officer).”
Lord Henley
My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendments 151 to 154. I have written to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, but I shall explain briefly to the Committee what the amendments do. They are essentially technical and drafting changes to provisions in Clause 26 and Schedule 14.
Amendments 150, 151 and 152 better define what is meant by an immigration offence within the context of Sections 136 to 139 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 and the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995, with which I am sure all noble Lords will be very familiar. The former allows immigration officers to exercise cross-border powers relating to warrants, arrest and search. The latter establishes a power of detention and arrest for immigration and nationality offences in Scotland. The amendments expand on the original wording which might, if given a narrow construction, have been read to limit the powers of immigration officers to dealing only with foreign nationals entering, residing in or transiting the UK. It is intended to encompass immigration enforcement offences, comprising offences of assaulting or obstructing an immigration officer, or failing to submit to, or produce documents requested during, an examination.
Amendment 154 relates to the provision of legal advice. Among other things, Clause 26 and Schedule 14 ensure that those detained on suspicion of having committed an immigration or nationality offence in Scotland are automatically eligible for publicly funded legal advice. However, as a corollary to this, a duty needs to be placed on the Scottish Legal Aid Board to ensure the availability of solicitors to provide such advice. The amendment makes the necessary change to the Criminal Legal Assistance (Duty Solicitors) (Scotland) Regulations 2011 to provide for this.
Amendment 153 simply corrects a drafting error in Clause 26(13). I beg to move.
Lord Henley
““immigration enforcement offence” means any of the following offences (insofar as they are not immigration or nationality offences)—
(a) an offence under section 26(1)(a), (b) or (g) of the Immigration Act 1971 (refusal or failure to submit to examination or to furnish information etc, or obstruction of immigration officer);(b) an offence under section 22 of the UK Borders Act 2007 (assaulting an immigration officer);”
Lord Henley
“(4) Regulation 3(1)(b) of the Criminal Legal Assistance (Duty Solicitors) (Scotland) Regulations 2011 (duty solicitors: advice for suspects) applies in relation to a person to whom section 25A of the 1995 Act applies by virtue of its amendment by paragraph 46 of this Schedule; and, accordingly, in regulation 3(1)(b), after “customs” insert “, immigration and nationality”.
(5) But regulation 3(1)(b) does not have effect in relation to such a person in a case where—
(a) the person is detained under section 24 of the 1995 Act, and the period of detention began before the time at which paragraph 46 of this Schedule comes into force; (b) the person attends as mentioned in section 25A(1)(d) of the 1995 Act, and the period of attendance began before that time; or(c) the person is arrested and detained as mentioned in section 25A(1)(e) of that Act, and the arrest occurred before that time.(6) Sub-paragraph (4) does not affect the application of regulation 3(1)(b) in relation to a person to whom section 25A of the 1995 Act applies otherwise than by virtue of its amendment by paragraph 47 of this Schedule.
(7) Sub-paragraphs (4) to (6) do not prevent regulation 3(1)(b) from being amended or revoked by exercise of any power conferred by the Legal Aid (Scotland) Act 1986 or any other power.
(8) In this paragraph “1995 Act” means the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995.”
Baroness Hamwee
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, perhaps I may move Amendment 154ZA. I imagine that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, is somewhere on the estate panicking at this moment, but I am happy to move Amendment 154ZA and later she will be able to speak to her own amendment, which we discussed this morning. What I had to say on this group of amendments very much goes to her amendment, which is to leave out the reference to “controlled” drugs.
I do not for a moment condone driving while impaired by drugs—that is what Section 4 of the 1988 Act deals with. I should say that I am speaking for myself. I do not want to put words into the mouth of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, but I am apprehensive about legislation which may not be necessary, may not be sufficiently clear, may require technical tools which are not available and may cause more problems than it solves. If my fears are justified I think that the provision does not do justice to the victims of drug-driving and their families.
No doubt the Minister will give us information about the current level of prosecutions for driving under the influence of drugs, the success rate of the prosecutions and the reliability of the testing equipment. Reliability is not the whole of the issue, but is the technology and the equipment adequate? I understand, for instance, that oral swabs to detect drugs are affected by an outdoor setting. I ask this because, of course, errors can lead to unnecessary detentions, to legal challenge and, indeed, to injustice. My amendments largely go to whether the driver’s performance is impaired while unfit to drive through drugs, as Section 4 says—Section 4 is not being repealed—and whether a strict liability offence is appropriate.
There are many very commonly prescribed medicines and over-the-counter medicines which contain patient information in which, in literally small print, there are warnings against driving—I quote from one which I got out of my own bedside drawer—
“if you feel dizzy, tired or sleepy.”
They may refer to dizziness or light-headedness, saying:
“Do not drive if you are affected in any way”.
Some of these warnings are given as part of a warning about the effect if taken alongside other medication or alcohol. This suggests to me at least two problems regarding evidence: did the driver feel dizzy, tired, light-headed or whatever, and did the driver take other medicines? If the level is set at zero this will disqualify, for instance, thousands of people taking very common medicines that control, to take just one example, raised blood pressure. It does not mean that you cannot drive but it does not mean that you can, so the patient is left with a decision.
To answer a criticism before it is made: I believe in taking responsibility for oneself, but sometimes the sensible decision can be very difficult to arrive at. It will be very difficult to disprove impairment; presumably, that is why we are presented with strict liability. Under proposed new Section 5A(3)(b), the defence will be “to show” that the defendant took the prescribed,
“drug in accordance with any”,
and all “instructions”, which presumably means oral as well as written instructions. That seems fairly onerous. I acknowledge that the burden of proof is on the prosecution but there is initially an evidential burden on the defendant under subsection (3) of the proposed new section, which is subject to subsection (4). It all seems to require a lot of investigation and argument.
I have said that the difficulties may be compounded when a patient is taking new medication. Of course, the same may apply if the patient changes medication. Patients with chronic pain who are on a stable dose of a prescription or over-the-counter opioid analgesic may well be over the limit without impairment, while some may be impaired and some not because there is a variable impact on different people. I suggest that it is a fair bet that many of us take, and sometimes rely on, analgesics containing ibuprofen and codeine. They may enable us to drive—actually, they may enable us to drive a debate, given the ergonomic failings of these Benches—by being more in control than one can be if driving in pain. I say that from some experience.
I am quite conscious that parallels can be drawn with people who boast that they can hold their drink, and are quite okay to drive to collect the Sunday papers with an alcohol level that has not quite subsided from the night before, but what all this really amounts to is that prescribed and over-the-counter drugs do not lend themselves to this strict liability offence. There could be unintended consequences, such as the risk of spending a lot of police time on people who do not present a risk on the roads or, indeed, the risk of deterring people from driving who then become dependent on others.
My Amendment 154B proposes consultation with a number of bodies: with the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, where one is talking about controlled drugs and impairment issues; with the medical profession and pharmaceutical industry, for the reasons that I have mentioned and no doubt others; and indeed with patients. I am not concerned only with prescribed drugs. In the case of controlled drugs, we know that cannabis can be detected a long time after it has been taken and long after the effects have worn off. I do not believe that it would assist the cause of road safety if the application of a law such as this brought the law into disrepute. Finally, one can only too easily see that the police might stop a driver because of a suspicion of some small thing being wrong with their car—such as a failed brake light, which the driver may not be aware of—then test the driver and find a trace of a drug. It is not being too alarmist to say that this could become the new stop and search. I beg to move.
Baroness Meacher
My Lords, I must first apologise to the Minister and to my colleagues and thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, very much indeed for stepping into the breach. I completely misjudged the pace of your Lordships’ progress on the previous amendments.
I shall speak to Amendments 154ZA, 154ZB, 154CA and 154DA. I am encouraged by the fact that, perhaps for the first time, an attempt is being made to form legislation that tries to look across from drugs to alcohol and from alcohol to drugs, and to achieve some sort of reasonable comparison in the response to these drugs in relation to driving. Alcohol is of course one of the most dangerous drugs that people take. I endorse the Government’s commitment to try to find a fair and consistent way to control driving under the influence of drugs. This is overdue and important. There is no question that I would suggest that people can drive while under the influence of drugs; that would be inconceivable on my part.
The purpose of my amendments is to ensure that young people are not criminalised unless any drugs in their system really are causing impairment while they are driving. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has suggested, there are several reasons why a driver may have a drug in their system but be entirely safe behind the driving wheel. One of my main concerns is that a very substantial minority of young people, as we know, take herbal cannabis. That is a relatively harmless thing to do—I emphasise relatively. It is much better that young people do not take cannabis or drink, or smoke, but we know that the great majority of them will do at least one of those. It is possibly better that they take a bit of herbal cannabis on occasions, so long as they do not do it too often, rather than smoke tobacco or drink alcohol. I must emphasise that skunk is a completely different matter.
I understand that the active ingredient, THC, disappears and has a short life in the body, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said, whereas the safe and perhaps even positive ingredients of the cannabinoids, which could improve driving, can remain there for some considerable time—perhaps many weeks. This legislation could lead to the criminalising of considerable numbers of young people who took cannabis at a party several weeks before and are then stopped for some minor reason. Traces are then found in their body of the cannabinoid, which have nothing whatever to do with the quality of their driving. I know that the Minister is perfectly well aware of these problems, and I hope that he will take them into account. I would be grateful for the Minister’s assurance to the House on this matter.
I want to explain my Amendment 154ZA, to leave out the word “controlled” from new Section 5A(1(b) in Clause 27. There are at least two strong arguments for doing this. The distinction between controlled and uncontrolled drugs is not evidence-based. Alcohol and tobacco, as we know, are far more dangerous than some drugs that are controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act. Any evidence-based legislation—which I understand this is designed to be—should not reference the outdated and discredited Misuse of Drugs Act. I applaud the Minister for insisting that this is road safety legislation; it is not about controlling drugs, it will be evidence-based, and I know that a lot of work is going on behind the scenes to make sure that that is so. However, we do have a problem with cannabis, and we need to hold on to that. In discussing cannabis, I should make it absolutely clear that I support the control of cannabis supply, but I hope that we can reach a point where the method of control—possibly some form of regulation—could be based on the evidence of the relative efficacy of different forms of control.
My second point is that a number of the so-called legal highs, or new psychoactive substances, are the drugs that may prove far more of a risk to drivers. Of course, these are controlled through temporary bans, but as Ministers and everybody else know, as soon as one of these drugs is controlled, the creators of these substances get back into their labs and create some new ones by changing a few molecules, and for a while those substances will be legal. There is, therefore, no rationale for limiting this legislation to controlled drugs, because drugs that are not controlled cause just as many problems, if not more.
I will now turn to Amendment 154ZB, where my objectives are twofold. First, it would ensure that there is a good reason for police involvement, either that the police are responding to a road accident, or that the roadside evidence suggests that the driver is impaired and that this may be due to alcohol or a drug in their system. I understand that as regards any drug where a specified limit within the driver’s blood or urine cannot be identified—above which it would be safe to assume impaired driving capacity—these cases will be dealt with under the existing Road Traffic Act. Nevertheless, I would be grateful if the Minister could give the House an assurance that under this legislation a driver will not be charged for driving under the influence of drugs unless there has either been a road traffic accident or there is roadside evidence of impairment, that the driver is not taking prescribed medication, and if the level of the drug in the driver’s blood or urine is above the level approved in regulations as presenting no threat to road safety.
I will explain paragraph (c) of Amendment 154ZB. I am concerned that the legislation could cause the inappropriate arrest and charging of patients prescribed medications for chronic pain and other long-term conditions. In particular, patients on a stable dose of opioid and analgesia may—according to Napp Pharmaceuticals—have no impairment of their ability to drive safely compared with other drivers who have taken similar quantities, or perhaps even far less, of that opioid. Apparently, the body simply adjusts to higher and higher levels of opioid, so you could be pretty heavily drugged and yet a perfectly safe driver. Therefore, without some way of dealing with these opioid prescriptions and people on those prescriptions, very unwell people who are suffering a lot of pain could be unnecessarily arrested, charged, taken to a police station, put in a cell and left there to wait for a forensic physician to come in and do a full examination, and so on. It would be a huge distress and greatly upsetting, and would also use a lot of police resources. I hope that the Minister can somehow give an assurance to the House that this issue will be very clearly dealt with.
I will quickly turn to amendment 154CA. My concern here is that new Section 5A(9) of Clause 27 appears to respond to the North report recommendation that:
“If … it should prove beyond scientific reach to set specific levels of deemed impairment, the Government should consider whether a ‘zero tolerance’ offence should be introduced in relation to”—
a list of controlled drugs. I would be grateful if the Minister could assure the House that a zero-tolerance approach will not be introduced in relation to cannabinoids—because this would be the temptation. It will be difficult to establish this limit for these drugs, because of the longevity of the survival of the cannabinoid in the blood. It would be helpful at this stage if the Minister can give us some assurance of that, and also give some indication, if possible, about the drugs that the Government have in mind for zero-tolerance treatment.
Finally, Amendment 154DA is a consequential amendment, and I will not say anything about that. In conclusion, I hope very much that the Minister will accept the principles behind these amendments—although I fully recognise that I put them together myself, and I am certainly no lawyer. If I brought them back on Report I would undoubtedly wish to change the wording therein.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, on this clause the Committee has benefited from the contributions of the noble Baronesses, Lady Hamwee and Lady Meacher. Looking through the clause, I found this issue difficult. It is very easy to identify the problem, and we want to address it and resolve this issue. No one wants to see people driving under the influence, whether of drink or drugs, or in an impaired state or the problems that that can cause, but we have to construct legislation that addresses that issue but at the same time does not penalise unnecessarily strictly or inconvenience those at whom it is not aimed. There is a danger that this legislation could have an impact beyond what is intended. Both noble Baronesses indicated that.
When I looked at this clause, what struck me—and listening to the debate has reinforced that feeling—is that this is work in progress. We fully support what the Minister is trying to achieve. I know that he is not particularly wedded to this wording and would be happy to look at ways of making sure that it achieves its aim. Our amendments are probing amendments, but they deal with significant issues. They provide an opportunity to look at the wider concerns. I was able to let the Minister know of some of my questions, and I apologise that I have others because while I looked at the clause more questions arose—I had more questions than answers when looking at it. I would be very happy to have some responses this evening and some in writing so that when we get to Report, we can give this further consideration.
Clause 27 introduces the new offence of drug-driving above a specified limit. It will sit alongside the offence of being unfit to drive while under the influence of drugs in the Road Traffic Act, as has already been mentioned. The difference is that that offence requires proof of impairment to be guilty, but this new offence does not. It relates only to controlled drugs because we specify those drugs in secondary legislation, not in this legislation. The limits for each drug covered by the new offence have to be specified in the regulations. If I understand subsection (9) of the new section, which the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher and Lady Hamwee, referred to, the limit could be set as low as zero, which creates some difficulties. The BMA stated:
“Drugs have a variable impact upon the measurable skills needed to drive safely, between individuals and at different blood levels”.
Yet the Explanatory Notes state:
“For some controlled drugs … it may not be technically possible to determine a level which impairs most people’s driving. This may be, for example, because tolerances vary widely in the population, or because the drug is often taken in conjunction with other drugs and is associated with abuse or risk-taking behaviour”.
The Explanatory Notes highlight some of the difficulties in getting this right.
The noble Baronesses spoke about the problem with the zero-tolerance approach—the difficulty of determining the appropriate impairment level risks decoupling the defence from the crime. A blanket ban on certain drugs that can be medicated could also seriously impact the standard of life of people on long-term medication as well as on people’s attitudes towards, and their compliance, with the treatment they require should they be prohibited from driving as a result of it. The difficulty is to look beyond the immediate offence to the impact it would have if somebody was worried that they would not be able to drive if they took certain controlled drugs on prescription. They might, therefore, on occasion not take their medication in order to drive.
In relation to medication classified as a controlled substance, as the legislation stands, individuals would be required to prove that they had a medical or dental prescription and that they took the drug in accordance with the doctor’s and the manufacturer’s or distributor’s directions. In reading the Bill, I was unclear about whether individuals who are unable to prove that they have a prescription for their medication would be required to attend a police station or would have a number of days in which to produce that evidence.
The Government have not been able to indicate how they intend to prove whether an individual has taken a drug in accordance with the medical directions—that is subsection (3) of the new section proposed in Clause 27. Would an individual be guilty of an offence if they have deviated, even only slightly, from the instructions? For example, the prescription may say to take the drug every five hours and on that occasion the patient took them within two hours because they had been out and had dinner or had forgotten. If we have it in legislation that they have to take the drugs according to the manufacturer’s and prescriber’s instructions, any deviation from those instructions could be a criminal offence.
Lord Henley
My Lords, the noble Baroness is an eternal optimist if she thinks that we will have everything ironed out by Report stage but I am grateful for that optimism. I am also grateful to her for giving me a list of the various questions that she wanted to ask and then putting forward another list of slightly more detailed questions, not all of which I can begin to answer. It will become clear why it is neither possible nor necessary to answer them now. This is probably just the first stage in quite a long discussion that will take place in this House and the other House so that we can get these matters absolutely right.
I am very grateful that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, made it in time. At one point I thought that her amendment would not even be moved. It is very important that we have the first discussion—it is only a first discussion—on this clause. I agree with her that this is a road safety issue. It has nothing to do with other drugs issues. She and I will discuss those in other arenas on other occasions. The important point to remember is that anyone who is impaired as a result of using drugs, whether controlled or uncontrolled, can commit an offence under Section 4 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.
In responding, I shall try to keep a very complicated issue as simple as possible. For that reason, those who are old enough—even in this House, that does not necessarily mean everyone—should remember what it was like pre-breathalyser in relation to one drug, namely alcohol. The noble Lord, Lord Dear, was probably a young policeman at the time. There was an offence of driving while impaired by alcohol but it was very difficult to prove. There were all sorts of methods by which one could try to do so. We probably have to go back to the Wilson Government of 1964 when Barbara Castle was Secretary of State for Transport and, as a result of legislation, the breathalyser was introduced. The idea was that you did not have to show that you were impaired; you were deemed to be impaired if you were over a certain limit—that is, if there was so much alcohol in your blood. That has proved very effective over the years.
I do not have the figures in front of me for the number of deaths, other casualties and accidents over the years. However, we have seen not only a massive decline in those but quite a big cultural shift in people’s attitudes to drink-driving. People take much greater care about not being over the limit, as they put it, even though they might think that they are still capable of driving. In other words, people accept that being at the limit means that they are impaired.
In Clause 27 we are trying to do something similar with drugs. However, as I said, on an issue that we want to keep very simple, this is going to be very difficult indeed. All noble Lords who have spoken in this debate—and, I imagine, all those listening as well—will accept that we are dealing with a whole range of different drugs. There are controlled drugs and uncontrolled drugs—a vast array of over-the-counter drugs, which people take for colds or whatever, that we all know can impair driving, and people should be careful whether they take them. I have even seen on a bottle of cough mixture for my children when they were very small, “Do not drive heavy vehicles after using this”. I am not sure why my children were likely to be driving heavy vehicles or heavy machinery after taking some cough mixture, but there is often such advice with medicine. Whether a drug is controlled or uncontrolled, it will still be covered by Section 4 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.
Clause 27 is trying to deal with the controlled drugs at this stage, and we need expert advice on that. Noble Lords who have spoken will also be fully aware that we have set up an expert panel to look at this. I do not have the list of names in front of me, but everyone will know that the people dealing with this matter are very eminent in their field. They will have to work very hard to find ways of defining the appropriate drugs and the appropriate limits. Because of the way we have drafted the Bill at the moment, there might have to be zero tolerance with some drugs, but I note the points that the noble Baroness made, particularly about cannabis and other drugs and how long they stay in the bloodstream. I accept that it is difficult, but we want to wait and hear the advice from the panel. I very much hope that we will have some initial advice before we get to Report. As I said, we are in this lucky position of having Report delayed somewhat until, I imagine, late in October or the beginning of November, so it does give us time to see what comes out, to listen to what the panel has to say and to have further discussions.
Again, we are at that happy stage of the Bill starting in this House and we have the joy of discussing it, but it can go on to another place. Even in another place they sometimes discuss these things seriously and in great detail, as the noble Baroness knows from her great experience there. We have time to get this right and make sure that we have the right procedures in place. In response to the points made by my noble friend Lady Hamwee, we want to make sure that there are appropriate defences for those who have taken over-the-counter medicines inadvertently or incorrectly, or for those who are on prescribed drugs from their doctor—for example, in the case of a statutory offence of someone who takes controlled drugs for medical reasons. We need to look at all these issues.
At the same time, we want to make sure that the expert panel can offer advice about setting appropriate levels for whatever drugs we decide to include in the interests of public safety. I go back to the first point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher—that this is a road safety issue first and foremost. For some drugs, we might have to say that zero is the only safe limit, but we want to wait until we get advice from the experts in this field because, however knowledgeable we are, we are not the experts and we need to listen to that in due course.
I said that I was trying to keep a very complicated issue as simple as possible at this stage, because all I wanted to do was set out what we were trying to do and what the problems are. I hope that between now and Report we can have further discussions about this, and I certainly hope to involve colleagues in the Department for Transport, because I think that they should be involved. This is not a Home Office issue; it just happens to be in a Bill that the Home Office is taking through the House. Others might be involved, and I hope they want to be.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
The Minister’s alcohol analogy is a useful one, although the caution that I would place on that is that testing for alcohol is testing for one drug. As he said, there is an almost unlimited number of drugs to be tested in this case. His comments have reassured me that the matter is being taken seriously and that he recognises that it is a work in progress. However, I am always slightly concerned—alarmed is too strong a word—when the Minister refers to matters coming back to this place and says that we do not have to worry if we do not get it completely right because it then goes to the other place as well. I am glad that he is shaking his head. That is not what he meant, but it has happened a couple of times in the course of this Bill. There is an obligation on us to get it as right as we possibly can. I know that we are not experts—I do not think that I am an expert in anything—but we are legislators or we are advising on legislation, and it is incumbent on us to ask the kind of questions that have been raised today. We need assurances that we will have the answers to those questions before the legislation goes to the other place. If we had answers to those questions before we pass legislation through both Houses, and when this House passes its advice to the other House, we could in all confidence say that we know that we have the procedures in place for this offence to protect people as we think it should.
Lord Henley
My Lords, if I put the matter in the terms described by the noble Baroness, I should not have done. We want to get it right and we shall try very hard to do so, but we need that expert advice. That is why I hope that we will have the beginnings of the expert advice from the expert panel before Report stage. At this stage, I was trying to make it clear that it was the beginnings of a discussion on a very simple idea, although it does not sound simple. The noble Baroness is right to say that we have had it very easy with alcohol, because it is just one drug and we have just one limit. We are now talking about lots of drugs—controlled, legal or illegal—and where we put the limits. It is going to be very complicated, so we want to listen to the experts and have further discussions.
Baroness Meacher
I thank the Minister for his response and openness to further discussions. Can he give a commitment that, if at all possible before Report, we could have an opportunity for some feedback from the expert panel and a discussion with it about the implications of its preliminary findings?
Lord Henley
I can never give an absolute commitment in relation to an expert panel discussing these things, because I cannot put a gun to its head about how it should proceed. However, I would very much welcome a chance for some sort of informal seminar among noble Lords interested in these things in the early days of October. That might be a useful way in which to take these things forward. I see a nod from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and, no doubt, also from the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. I look forward to it. Tea and coffee will be available on that occasion at some time in October.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, we are being offered caffeine.
It is interesting that those of us who have spoken on this are not opposing the underlying proposition. We are all looking at it as a road safety issue, but we want to get it right. Although I welcome the Minister’s optimism about ironing out the problems, I said to him in the break earlier this evening that the months of the summer recess have a habit of disappearing awfully fast and October will be on us quite quickly. More seriously, I express some concern about being asked to deal with this hugely important and complicated issue while work is still going on.
I do not think it is appropriate to seek to make a lot of points now as I am sure we will come back to this on Report. I had already written down “meeting ?”, but I was thinking that something more than a meeting, such as a roundtable discussion, might be needed so that we can swap ideas and get questions answered. I am sure that there are more questions than have been raised tonight. My noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford has been muttering to me about evidence and burdens of proof—I did mention burden of proof—and how the prosecution would deal with the issues. Bringing together the medical and the legal would be extremely helpful. I am grateful to the Minister for his suggestion. I will bring the biscuits.
I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 154ZA.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes)
I understand that the amendment is in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, although the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, moved it. Does the noble Baroness wish to speak?
Baroness Meacher
My Lords, I am advised that I must withdraw my amendment so I withdraw it.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, if I may say so, has beaten you to the draw.
Lord Mawhinney
“Public orderPublic order offences
(1) Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986 is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1), for “abusive or insulting” in the two places where it occurs there is substituted “or abusive”.”
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, I have been sitting here contemplating that it falls to me to move the last amendment, at the end of a long day, at the end of six days of Committee. I wondered whether it was more appropriate to say “better late than never” or “last but not least”.
At least this amendment has the virtue of simplicity. We have had some fairly heavy and complicated amendments to deal with today. This one is dead easy. It is about freedom of expression. All of us would say that we are supporters of freedom of expression. I stake my latest colours to the mast: I had the privilege of chairing the Joint Committee on the Draft Defamation Bill and one of our very first recommendations said:
“We recommend that the Government has particular regard to the importance of freedom of expression when bringing forward this Bill”.
I think the best definition of freedom of expression falls to a learned opinion given by the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, who was a distinguished DPP and is a cosignatory to this amendment. He is overseas tonight and not able to take part in this debate. He wrote, in an opinion that I do not think has been seriously challenged legally, about removing the word “insulting” from Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986:
“Freedom of expression constitutes one of the essential foundations of [democratic] society, one of the basic conditions for its progress and for the development of every man. Subject to Article 10 (2), it is applicable not only to ‘information’ or ‘ideas’ that are favourably received or regarded as inoffensive or as a matter of indifference, but also to those that offend, shock or disturb”.
Those last words are very important.
This is the second time in just over a year that Parliament has been invited to remove the word “insulting” from Section 5. Edward Leigh MP tabled such an amendment in the other place in May 2011. The Government, in the form of James Brokenshire MP, promised a public consultation, which indeed was launched on 13 October last year and closed on 13 January this year. That, plus the handling of the Bill in the Commons, meant that the other place never got around to pursuing an amendment to Section 5.
As your Lordships will know, the guidance is that the Government should respond within three months to a public consultation. We are now heading towards six months and, as of two days ago, the Government still had not responded. The Minister then promised conclusions “as quickly as possible”. It is probably worth taking a minute to ask ourselves: what is the problem that is constituted by the inclusion of the word “insulting” in Section 5?
Four very brief examples will illustrate the problem. An Oxford student said to a police constable, “Excuse me, do you realise your horse is gay?”. He was arrested and the police tried to fine him £80. A man growled and said, “Woof!” to two Labrador dogs and he was detained by the police and fined by magistrates. A 16 year-old boy held a placard saying, “Scientology is not a religion, it is a dangerous cult”, and he was arrested. An elderly street preacher displayed a sign that said, “Stop immorality. Stop homosexuality. Stop lesbianism. Jesus is Lord”. He was arrested, convicted and wound up being £600 out of pocket. All those stem from the inclusion of the word “insulting” in Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986.
Is this a quirk of those of us who actually believe that Jesus is Lord, or does the opposition here have a somewhat broader base? I say particularly to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that this is not a party-political issue. Concern about this stretches across the Benches in both Houses, and the fact that I quote one Conservative MP does not mean that I am trying to make it party political; I just think that David Davis MP summed up the issue better than most speeches I have heard from Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem MPs. He said:
“Section 5, amongst other things, makes it illegal to insult somebody. This … law makes other things illegal which should be: incitement to violence is illegal; abusive behaviour is illegal. But an insult? Who should decide who’s insulted? … What this does is actually make the courts, the police, sit in judgment on whether somebody feels insulted or not, which actually has a terrible chilling effect on democracy”.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, it sounds as though in 1986 mere insults would have been quite a relief. I congratulate the noble Lord on the amendment, to which I put my name along with my noble friend Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, who, in a professional as well as a political capacity, has been quoted. I said at Second Reading that I hoped that the Bill might be a vehicle for this move, but I had little optimism that the Public Bill Office would accept the amendment as being within the scope of the Bill. So my congratulations to the noble Lord are doubled on that score.
I can spot when the House is ready to draw its business to a close and I have no doubt that we will have an opportunity to come to this at Report. When he left earlier today, my noble friend Lord Lester muttered to me that he would speak on it at Report. I leave it to your Lordships to decide whether that is a threat or a promise. The House has already heard that taking the word “insulting” out of Section 5 is Liberal Democrat party policy because, in summary, insults should not be criminalised and because of the essential nature of free speech. Our policy would, indeed, go further and take the word out of Section 4A as well. I, and my colleagues on the Liberal Democrat Benches, very much support the amendment.
Lord Dear
My Lords, I will take up very little time in your Lordships’ House this evening. The noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, has made a very powerful case, citing a lot of examples of the way in which this word has been abused within the purview of the Public Order Act 1986. We should, in fact, note that the words have been around since they first went on to the statute book in the Public Order Act 1936. However, it is only in the last 10 or 12 years that the word “insulting” has attracted this sort of attention. As many of your Lordships know, I have taken a close interest in this for a very long time. I have spoken on at least half a dozen occasions in your Lordships’ House; I have tabled numerous Questions for Written Answer and written articles in national newspapers, including one in the Daily Mail online today, always pressing for the removal of this word from the Public Order Act. Over the last two or three years that I have been engaged in this campaign, I have watched public opinion switch from either indifference or opposition through to almost complete unanimity in the public domain. One might almost say that the door is swinging wide open—something that the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, has noticed for himself.
I will quickly cite two examples. I spoke on exactly this point at Second Reading during the passage of the Protection of Freedoms Act last November, and again on the fourth day of the debate on the Queen’s Speech on 15 May this year, and reflected that—but for the three-month consultation period which had produced something of a logjam in the process—I would be tabling the amendment myself. On 15 May, the noble Lord, Lord Henley, from the government Front Bench said in reply:
“As for the noble Lord's particular remarks about Section 5 of the Public Order Act, I ask again that he be patient for a little longer. It is a complex issue, and we have to give careful consideration to the views expressed in the 2,500 responses that we have had to the consultation”.—[Official Report, 15/5/12; col. 376]
As has been said, we are still waiting and patience is perhaps being stretched a little but I, for one, am prepared to wait, particularly since we have the prospect of the summer recess in which the Home Office can come to a conclusion on this. I am a little surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, has tabled the amendment now, because it presses exactly the same point that has been pressed before and we are still waiting for the opportunity to get the consultation out of the way and then have a clear run at the issue.
My response is fairly self-evident. I will continue to advocate the removal of “insulting” from the Public Order Act and, to that end, I shall exert all the pressure I can in due course. This is not an amendment that I would have tabled today and I hope that it will be withdrawn at this stage. It would be helpful if the Minister could again signal an urgency in the Home Office to deal with the consultation so that we can properly address the issue at Report.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, as has been said, the amendment removes the word “insulting” from Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986. The noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, has explained the reasoning behind the amendment. We will need to be satisfied as to its justification, the evidence advanced as to why it is needed and the extent to which that evidence reveals a problem that can only really be addressed by a change to the legislation. We will also want to be satisfied that removing “insulting” will not mean that people using such words or behaviour cannot be prosecuted when there is every justification and reason for doing so.
The consultation on this issue closed in January. The Government have not, as far as I am aware, published the replies to that consultation or their own response. Despite this, the Deputy Prime Minister, presumably in his official capacity, has apparently made comments supportive of the approach in the amendment. Bearing that in mind, and the distinguished noble Lords whose names adorn the amendment, I suspect that the Government, at worst, are not going to reject its intentions.
For our part, we will listen to whatever points the Minister has to make, as well as the points made by noble Lords in the debate, to which we will want to pay regard. We also want to consider the replies to the consultation when they are published, along with the Government’s response, before coming to a firm conclusion.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I hope that I can be relatively brief in responding to the speech of my noble friend in moving the amendment, and the remarks that other noble Lords have made. My noble friend need not apologise for the fact that he was a member of the Government and was a signatory to the Public Order Act 1986, which included the word “insulting”. As the noble Lord, Lord Dear, has reminded us, “insulting” goes back to the Public Order Act 1936, introduced by the then National Liberal Home Secretary, Sir John Simon. That was very much borne out of the fascist marches of the 1930s. Section 5 of that Act referred to any,
“person who, in a public place or at a public meeting, uses threatening, abusive or insulting words”.
That is much the same as the 1986 Act which my noble friend now feels embarrassed about having signed up to.
To take the history lessons back a bit further, I take my noble friend back to the Metropolitan Act of 1839. That was under a Whig Government—the forebears of the Liberal Democrats—who, again, introduced the word “insulting”, but which applied only in London and not in other parts of the country. I make this point to say that this has been going on for some time.
Similarly, I apologise to my noble friend for the fact that our consultation ended in January and we have not responded within the appropriate three months; however, it did cover a number of other issues. Obviously, it is now six months since that consultation ended. As has been made clear by a number of noble Lords who spoke, we had some 2,500 responses to that consultation and we want to consider them carefully. It is clear that there are a number of different and passionately held views on the subject. Given the complexity of the issues raised, we in the Home Office, as Ministers and officials, are still considering the balance of all those representations. So, I say to the Committee—and to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser—that I am not in a position today to set out the Government’s position on the amendment.
This is a timely debate, which will help to inform the Government’s further deliberations. I would have been grateful if it could have happened at a time when more noble Lords were here in Committee. Although I appreciate that the names on the amendment of those who support it come from different parts of the House and they all seemed to be on the same side, there are strong believers in other views. We have heard a number of cases indicating the weakness of having “insulting” in the provision. Different noble Lords have cited a number of different cases.
We also have to accept that freedom of expression is never an absolute right. It needs to be balanced with other competing rights. It was made quite clear in the case of Percy and the DPP that Section 5 is proportionate and contains that necessary balance between the right of freedom of expression and the right of others to go about their business without being harassed, alarmed or distressed.
I do not want to go into details at this stage because we are debating this at too late an hour with too empty a Chamber. All that I am saying is that we have had a consultation. That has ended and we have had 2,500 responses. Those need to be considered carefully and all of us need in time to take a view. I hope that all noble Lords will accept that there are arguments on both sides, as the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, put it. Those need to be considered very carefully. I am pretty sure that I can say to my noble friend Lord Mawhinney that we are likely to come back to this issue at a later stage in the Bill.
As I have said on other occasions, we have some considerable time before we get to Report. That might make it easier to come to that considered view. I hope at that point we will be able to put forward the Government’s considered view to the House. Therefore, I hope that my noble friend will, on this occasion, feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response and to other colleagues who have spoken. None of us who spoke is responsible for the fact that the debate is on very late and the House has well below the number of noble Lords who might normally have considered the matter. That is not our fault. I hear what the Minister said about the lateness of the hour tonight. If we come back to this at Report, I am not sure that that argument will carry much water were it to be tried a second time around.
The Minister will have heard that those who have spoken have all spoken with one voice. I would like to pick up the point that the noble Lord, Lord Dear, made about the timing of this. Having been privileged to spend 26 years at the other end of this Corridor and a mere seven at this end, I understand why Governments and Parliament issue guidance. They issue guidance to constrain the power of the Executive to put stuff in the long grass and let it lie there. Guidance is designed to say to Ministers, “You can have reasonable time, but there comes a point when Parliament must be accorded the rights and privileges that go with the name Parliament”.
My noble friend pointed out that there were 2,500 replies, and six months later they are still studying them. Okay, but the guidance was that they should have replied in three months, so at the very least we should have had a message from the Executive two months ago saying, “This is really taking us longer than we thought. We hope Parliament won’t mind if we take a little longer”. Do you know what? I am guessing that Parliament would have said, “Okay, take a little longer”, but here we are after six months. I say to my noble friend, “Take a little longer”. However, I also say that the mood of the House and the mood of the other place would be that, well before Report stage, we would wish to be encouraged to believe that not only had the Government formed a view, which they were willing to share, but that they had done something politically quite sensible and aligned themselves with the vast majority of people who want to see “insulting” removed from Section 5.
As my noble friend goes away to sit at his desk over the summer pondering things, I offer him a reflection from former US President Harry Truman, who had only two frames on his desk. One frame held a picture of his wife, and in the other was a saying from Mark Twain. Every day, Harry Truman read these words:
“Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest”.
I offer that encouraging thought to the Minister as he contemplates those 2,500 responses and the content of this short debate. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.