Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston. It is the mark of a civilised society that disabled people are able to participate in all its activities. It is certainly the mark of a mature and properly functioning democracy that disabled people are in no way obstructed from participating in elections.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Low, for the way in which he introduced his amendment and referred to the discussions we had in Committee. Like him, I thought that they were constructive and useful. I also appreciate the words of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York.

The Government very much understand the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Low. Naturally, this debate has thrown up interesting suggestions which the Government think merit further consideration. Although the amendments tabled by the noble Lord raise some valid and useful points about which we have thought very carefully, the Government resist these commendable amendments.

First and foremost, we remain unconvinced that the amendments in their current form will make any difference to the provisions already in the Bill or, indeed, to voters at the poll. The provisions already enable the chief counting officer to issue directions or guidance in relation to voters with disabilities or in relation to the policies and procedures for the handling of complaints. Therefore, these amendments add very little in terms of substance.

I know that the commission treats disability issues very seriously and is mindful of the importance of ensuring that counting officers are aware of the needs of voters with disabilities. Noble Lords will also be aware of the legal obligations that public bodies are already under to meet the needs of people with disabilities.

However, although the Government resist these amendments, we are entirely conscious that these are important issues, which may well warrant, after proper consideration and consultation, some application—in perhaps a modified form—and for that to be brought to bear on future polls. I know that the noble Lord will regret what I have to say but this is neither the appropriate time nor vehicle for these amendments. To consider carefully and consult on the implications of the kind of changes envisaged by these amendments will require more time than we have at present. However, they are a useful pointer to the issues that need to be addressed.

On that basis, I hope the noble Lord will understand and assist the Government by continuing the dialogue he has already had and withdrawing his amendment.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

I thank the noble Lord for his response and all other noble Lords who spoke so warmly in support of the amendments. At this late stage of the proceedings it would be appropriate to withdraw the amendment. The noble Lord the Leader of the House certainly encouraged continuation of the dialogue and spoke positively about aspects of the amendments. He said that there were things there that merited further consideration. I can take just enough away from those words to give me some confidence that the Government will wish to return to this in the context of future electoral legislation. The noble Lord can be assured that we will certainly work strenuously with the Government to ensure that that does indeed happen. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Bach]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, as always—and the Electoral Commission must be even more grateful than I. These are sensible amendments that one would have thought the commission would have supported, given all that it said about the scandalous issues that arose in Sheffield and a few other places during the last election. It is remarkable that it seems to have changed its mind.

I will put that to one side. The Government will make up their mind about whether to do something about the scandal in May last year. My question to the noble and learned Lord is: what do the Government intend to do to make sure that this does not happen again in May this year?

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, for returning to this important issue in his amendment. Many of us who watched the election night coverage of the scenes at certain polling stations where people who had been queuing were not given the opportunity to vote found that it offended our sense of justice as democrats. The Government certainly take it seriously. The Electoral Commission's report found that queues built up at a number of polling stations on 6 May for various reasons. It identified 27 polling stations across the country. In most cases, it found that the common factor was inadequate planning processes and contingency arrangements that were not in place.

I assure the House that the Government are considering the Electoral Commission's report. We will consider what steps are necessary to prevent a repeat of the problems. It is important that we make sure that any changes to the rules are workable and will benefit the public. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, referred to the briefing from the commission to Members of your Lordships' House in which it indicates that a change to the rules on the close of polls would be significant; that details of any changes would need careful consideration to ensure that they could be consistently applied and would not have any unintended consequences; that the amendment could lead to inconsistent practice; and that there has not been sufficient time to consider the implications of how the provisions of amendment might work in practice.

We previously assured the House, in a reasonably long debate on this issue in Committee, that the Bill already gives the chief counting officer the necessary powers and discretion to ensure that the referendum runs smoothly. She will have sufficient flexibility to decide what is right in particular circumstances, including the steps that have already been taken by the Electoral Commission to ensure that some of the problems that occurred on 6 May are not repeated. This will include all counting officers having effective planning processes and contingency plans. We advised the Committee that the Electoral Commission had indicated that the chief counting officer intends to issue directions to counting officers on the maximum number of electors who will be allocated to any polling station, and the associated minimum number of staff who must be present at each polling station to ensure that polling runs smoothly and that all electors who wish to vote are able to. The Government take this seriously and are considering the Electoral Commission's report.

[The Archbishop of York]

The amendment simply refers to taking measures to ensure that all those wishing to vote and arriving at a polling station within the appointed hours are able to do so. What could be the unintended consequences of that?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

The Electoral Commission and the chief counting officer ultimately have responsibility for the smooth running of the election. Certainly—this may well be because we are running relatively close to polling day—they have taken the view that making such a significant change could have unintended consequences. In their judgment, it could lead to some inconsistencies in different parts of the country, and it would be regrettable if, in trying to address one very serious problem, we opened up some other unintended and unforeseen problems. I do not think we would be thanked for that, and therefore I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

My Lords, the manuscript amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, comes under the part of the schedule headed “Encouraging participation”. As I understand it, he wishes to place on the chief counting officer responsibility for co-ordinating the activities of a regional counting officer, a counting officer and a registration officer in performing their duties under paragraph 10 to encourage participation. It is very hard to see how anyone could object to that. I do not know whether there are any technical objections to the terms of the noble Lord’s manuscript amendment, but it seems a sensible measure, because there is no one in the House who does not want to encourage participation.

If there are technical problems with the manuscript amendment, I imagine that they could be tidied up at Third Reading on Monday. On the basis on which it has been advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, we support the principle of the amendment, subject to any difficulties that we have not foreseen to which the Minister may draw our attention.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury for tabling the amendment. He gave a history of the debate in Committee. We agreed when he withdrew his amendment in Committee that we would have further discussions. I am pleased that we have been able to have those discussions. In Committee, the Government indicated that we were not persuaded that such an amendment was necessary. My noble friend and I have agreed that there was merit on both sides. Our meeting has added clarity. It has put the issue of co-operation right up front. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, has emphasised the importance of co-operation, with which we all agree, in trying to ensure encouragement of participation in the referendum, usbregardless of which side of the campaign one might be on.

It is a manuscript amendment. If my noble friend is willing to give us the opportunity to reflect on its wording, I very much hope to be able to come back to him with a definitive response during Third Reading. Perhaps he would be prepared to withdraw his amendment at this stage on that basis.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I am grateful to my noble and learned friend. I assume that there was a clear implication in that—

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, for making two loud noises from a sedentary position, but his point was precisely that which was going through my mind about the noble and learned Lord’s response. It was not clear from what he said whether he would come back with something or whether he was just considering something. The response of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, is exactly the response that I would have given.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

If it helps, I very much hope to be able to come back with a very positive response to my noble friend. I just wanted to check.

Amendment 34ZA withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

34A: Schedule 2, page 35, line 27, after “entry” insert “1A,”

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, this is a series of government amendments to deal with the issue of postal and proxy voting. They provide that anyone who registers or is already registered to vote by post, or has a proxy vote in a combined poll, will receive a postal vote for the referendum. They include, I fear, a long string of consequential amendments. Therefore, I beg to move Amendment 34A and will then move en bloc Amendments 34B to 34AS, with the leave of the House.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

I am slightly at a loss. Roughly, in a sentence or two, what are they doing and why are they being done at Report?

[Lord Strathclyde]

I spoke in one sentence, and I thought that I was the object of clarity. Why are we doing it at Report? Because we did not spot it before. No doubt in those long days in Committee the officials were busily looking at these issues again and came to the conclusion that there needed to be some clarification.

The point is that an elector who is already registered for a postal vote for one of the polls combined with the referendum, and who is therefore entitled to vote in the referendum, is now as a result of these amendments, which I hope will be agreed, also automatically registered for a postal vote for the referendum. It is about dealing with the issue of the combination of the polls at the same time. It is designed to make life easier, and I am sure that the noble and learned Lord will agree it.

Amendment 34A agreed.

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Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

34B: Schedule 2, page 35, line 30, after “entry” insert “1A,”

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Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

34D: Schedule 3, page 80, line 17, at end insert—

“1A

A person who— (a) is entitled to vote in the referendum and in a poll that is taken together with the referendum, (b) is included in the postal voters list for that poll, and (c) is not within entry 1 in this table or entry 1 in the table insub-paragraph (3).

Address provided in the application that gave rise to the person being included in the postal voters list or, if the person is included in more than one, the address provided in the latest of those applications.”

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Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

34T: Schedule 3, page 83, line 9, at end insert—
“( ) in relation to a principal who is included in the list of proxies by virtue of entry 1A in that table, the appointment of the person mentioned in column 3 of that entry;”

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Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

34AU: Schedule 5, page 159, line 6, after “entry” insert “1A,”

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Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

34AW: Schedule 6, page 194, line 26, after “entry” insert “1A,”

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Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

36: Schedule 7, page 235, line 26, after “entry” insert “1A,”

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Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

38: Schedule 10, page 304, line 24, at end insert—
“Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986In Schedule 2A to the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986 (public hearings about Boundary Commission proposals), in the definition of “qualifying party” in paragraph 9, for “votes” there is substituted “first-preference votes”.”

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, this is a small and technical amendment dealing with the definition of a qualifying party. I beg to move.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

The obvious question is, “What are these for?”, but it is just too late at night to ask that—so don’t even get up to respond.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I cannot resist, because I know that it would be helpful to the noble and learned Lord if I tell him that this amendment is relevant only to Northern Ireland.

Amendment 38 agreed.

Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

39: After Schedule 10, insert the following new Schedule—
“Schedule Section 12 Public hearings about Boundary Commission proposalsThe Schedule referred to in section 12(1A) is as follows—
“Schedule 2ASection 5Public hearings about Boundary Commission proposalsPurpose of hearings The purpose of a public hearing is to enable representations to be made about any of the proposals with which the hearing is concerned.
Number of hearings(1) In relation to any particular report under section 3(1)(a) of this Act—
(a) the Boundary Commission for England shall cause at least two and no more than five public hearings to be held in each English region;(b) the Boundary Commission for Scotland shall cause at least two and no more than five public hearings to be held in Scotland;(c) the Boundary Commission for Wales shall cause at least two and no more than five public hearings to be held in Wales;(d) the Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland shall cause at least two and no more than five public hearings to be held in Northern Ireland.(2) The public hearings in an English region shall be concerned with proposals for that region, and shall between them cover the whole region.
(3) The public hearings in Scotland shall be concerned with proposals for Scotland, and shall between them cover the whole of Scotland.
(4) The public hearings in Wales shall be concerned with proposals for Wales, and shall between them cover the whole of Wales.
(5) The public hearings in Northern Ireland shall be concerned with proposals for Northern Ireland, and shall between them cover the whole of Northern Ireland.
Chair of hearings For each public hearing the Boundary Commission concerned shall appoint a person to chair the hearing.
Length of hearings A public hearing shall be completed within two days.
Procedure at hearings It is for the chair of each public hearing to determine the procedure that is to govern that hearing.
The chair shall make arrangements for a public hearing to begin with an explanation of—
(a) the proposals with which the hearing is concerned; (b) how written representations about the proposals may be made (as mentioned in section 5(1)(a), (4)(b) or (5)(c) of this Act). The chair of a public hearing must allow representations to be made—
(a) by each qualifying party; (b) by any other persons (whether individuals or organisations) considered by the chair to have an interest in any of the proposals with which the hearing is concerned.Paragraph (b) above has effect subject to sub-paragraph (3)(b) below.(2) The chair may restrict the amount of time allowed for representations—
(a) by qualifying parties, and(b) by other persons,and need not allow the same amount to each.(3) The chair may determine—
(a) the order in which representations are made, and (b) if necessary because of shortage of time, which of those wishing to make representations are not allowed to do so,in whatever way the chair decides.(1) The chair may put questions, or allow questions to be put, to a person present at the hearing.
(2) If questions are allowed to be put, the chair may regulate the manner of questioning or restrict the number of questions a person may ask.
InterpretationIn this Schedule—
“the chair” means the person appointed under paragraph 3 above;
“English region” means an electoral region specified in Schedule 1 to the European Parliamentary Elections Act 2002 (ignoring paragraph 2(2) of that Schedule and the references to Gibraltar) as it has effect on the day referred to in rule 5(2) of Schedule 2 to this Act;
“public hearing” means a hearing under section 5(1)(b) of this Act;
“qualifying party” means a party that is registered under Part 2 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 and either—
(a) has at least one Member of the House of Commons representing a constituency in the region, or (as the case may be) the part of the United Kingdom, in which the hearing is held, or(b) received at least 10% of the votes cast in that region or part in the most recent parliamentary general election.””

[Lord Strathclyde]

I beg to move.

Amendments 40 to 68 (to Amendment 39) not moved.