Historic Towns and Cities

Tuesday 19th October 2010 Westminster Hall

11:00

[Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity for this debate on historic towns. I understand from some hon. Members that there is debate about what constitutes an historic town—I see my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) is present; but definitions are definitions.

I spoke in a previous Westminster Hall debate about the economic development of seaside towns, and that enabled me to discuss some of the problems of the town of Fleetwood, in my constituency. Today’s debate gives me the opportunity to raise the issues that face another large part of my constituency—the city of Lancaster—and especially the issues concerning its economy and future growth prospects. The debate will also give others a chance to talk about the economies of their constituencies, and to raise areas of concern with the Minister.

I want to cover four main themes in my speech: heritage versus development; transport; tourism; and more general support for business and economic regeneration in Lancaster and the surrounding area. I am well aware that some of those issues are not the direct responsibility of the Minister, but they are all cross-cutting subjects that will ultimately affect the future of Lancaster, and I hope that you will give us some latitude, Mr Dobbin.

Lancaster’s heritage is what makes it unique. It has an ancient history, which is glaringly obvious in the fabric of its buildings and the layout of its roads. That is an economic strength, because it feeds tourism, but it can also prove a drawback when it comes to developing the city. There is an obvious tension between preserving the ancient and historic elements that give the city its character and soul, and allowing much-needed development to take place, so that residents can have access to 21st-century facilities and business can expand and create jobs. Often, those tensions can be resolved easily, but equally often positive proposals for change can be stymied. I want to focus on one example.

Lancaster lacks a large-scale department store development, which means that local people and outside custom must travel to Preston, Manchester or, increasingly, Kendal, to obtain access to the types of stores that residents of other cities take for granted. That means that we do not have the trade that other cities have. We pride ourselves on the individuality of our small and family-owned shops, which is one of the strengths of the Lancaster shopping experience, but there is a lack of balance in the retail offer that is available to attract outside custom. Accordingly, proposals were put forward, by a company called Centros, to develop land owned by Lancaster city council and Mitchell’s brewery, Lancaster’s own brewery, for the creation of a new shopping complex. The complex would include a 97,500 square feet Debenhams store, a residential area, improvements to local theatres and an enhancement of the canal-side environment. That represents an investment of £150 million, and the possibility of 1,000 extra jobs for the area.

There has been opposition to the scheme, as will always happen. It is mainly co-ordinated through the campaign group Save Our City, but in general Mr and Mrs Lancaster have the feeling that something needs to happen. The developer took two years to consult extensively on the project. I understand that English Heritage was difficult to contact and that it did not engage with the consultation until the end of the process was at hand. However, it submitted its views, and at the end of the developer’s consultation the plans were redesigned, to take account of concerns that were raised, including initial concerns that English Heritage had highlighted.

After that redesign stage English Heritage seemed happy, and accordingly decreed that the plans could be dealt with at the local level. The council then set aside two whole days for the planning application to be considered, at the end of which, in October 2008, the plans were passed, with a large majority—15 to four. Lancaster city council has continued to support the project since. I should point out that there is no overall control on the council. In fact, there are six political groups, and five in the cabinet, so it may be imagined how difficult it is to reach any kind of agreement at any time.

Most of the site that is due to be developed is flat already. Almost half the land that is designated for development is currently car parking space. However, part of the Mitchell’s brewery site is very old. It has 18th-century buildings, which would, at one point, have been of significance. However, the decision of the Secretary of State, on the initial advice of English Heritage, was not to list any of the buildings. It was considered that Mitchell’s brewery was “too altered” and not of sufficient architectural significance

“to merit listing in a national context.”

Moreover, the adviser’s report continued:

“Mitchell’s brewery has been assessed for listing on two previous occasions and was found to be not of sufficient quality or historic interest to merit addition to the statutory list.”

It added:

“The recent application for listing contains no new information, and thus there is no justification for revising the earlier assessments that the site was not listable.”

However, at the last minute—and hon. Members may see where I am going with this—at the end of that drawn-out process, almost five years after the plans were first conceived and after the local council had approved the development, English Heritage performed a U-turn. That seems to have been on the basis of a new concern lodged by a member of the campaign group Save Our City and evidence submitted by regional advisory staff at English Heritage. English Heritage subsequently submitted a new report to the then responsible Minister, who ruled that the plans must be put on hold.

What precisely had changed? The developers have been trying to establish the exact reasons for the U-turn ever since and are seeking a way forward. My predecessor as Member of Parliament for Lancaster, who is now my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace), sought information from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport through the Freedom of Information Act. However, the Department has been less than forthcoming. The information released, especially the report to the Minister, is heavily redacted, which provides us with little opportunity to understand what actually went on.

To be fair, I understand that English Heritage is now engaging with the developers again, but also that it is undertaking a new analysis of the site, brick by brick, with no end to the process in sight. I sometimes wonder whether, if English Heritage had existed in 1945, every bomb site in Britain would have been declared an historic site. Obviously, genuine heritage needs to be protected. It is not in the interest of the city council to do anything to detract significantly from the beauty and history of its built environment. That would only lessen the tourism economy and detract from the character of a beautiful city. However, when a local council and local businesses come up with a sensible scheme that would retain the character of a city but also give residents access to better, modern facilities, and provide regeneration and jobs, surely it goes against the grain of our new localism agenda to allow central Government to veto those plans. Moreover, if English Heritage has the power to interrupt the plans at the last minute, surely it must have a responsibility to be open about why it has made such decisions and to complete whatever other surveys it feels are necessary as quickly as possible, so as not to delay further such an important scheme.

I have one other point to make on the matter before I move on. If English Heritage is to have resources pared back as part of the comprehensive spending review, will the already slow, drawn-out out process of its involvement slow down similar applications in future? This is a time when we need private investment and jobs, not least in the north-west of England and certainly in Lancaster.

I have mentioned the obvious benefit that tourism brings to historic cities. Lancaster is no different. According to the council’s website, the visitor economy is worth some £260 million a year to the area within the city council boundary. Many other cities have a focal point for their tourism industry: for Chester, its Roman history and walls; for York, the minster; and for Ludlow, its castle. Lancaster, too, has a castle, which is historically significant and contains the only remaining part of a building that was constructed by Henry IV; it is still owned by the Duke of Lancaster, Her Majesty the Queen.

However, the castle is not as big a tourist attraction as it could be. Large parts of it are still used as part of the oldest functioning prison in the world, leased by the Ministry of Justice from the Duchy of Lancaster. Courts also still operate inside the castle. The Prisons Minister has recently announced his Department’s wish to terminate its lease of the castle and it is suggested that the Duchy, together with the local council and other interested parties, can operate it as a more highly specialised tourist attraction. The council is certainly keen that that should happen, having sought such an outcome for several years and having included the possibility in its tourism strategy document of a few years ago.

Once again, we can see the problem of tension between the old and the new, although in this instance both the status quo and a change of use for the building have economic consequences for the city. If the prison is closed, many prison staff will lose their jobs or have to relocate. The Prison Service will lose one of its best performing prisons, despite the ancient nature of the building. At the same time, there is a degree of scepticism about where the funding will come from to remove a prison from an ancient castle and to terminate a lease—a lease from the duchy—and, in the present financial climate, about whether the county or the city council will have the wherewithal then to convert it into a major tourist attraction. We await events, but that is why I am trying to talk to the duchy, the Ministry of Justice, the council, prison employees and others to find the best way forward. I hope I am wished some luck.

Transportation, too, affects a lot of historic cities, and has a role to play in economic development. The narrow lay-out of streets in historic towns was often planned centuries ago, with little regard for modern modes of transport. Accordingly, transport links and road congestion are other problems faced by places such as Lancaster.

Often transport patterns have changed. New towns and cities have sprung up in recent decades, and new housing estates or industrial sites have been built, meaning that journeys are being made to places to which there was no need to travel in the past. Lancaster suffers particularly badly from traffic congestion.

One of the main contributors to the problem is the heavy vehicles travelling to Morecambe and the port of Heysham, because there is no link between the port and the M6. Traffic comes off the motorway and through Lancaster city, forcing queues to form as traffic waits to get over the only two bridges linking Lancaster and Morecambe en route to the port of Heysham. Plans for a link road have lain on the drawing board for some 50 years—but there has been no action. Now the plans for the link road are part of the proposals put on hold by the Department for Transport in the run-up to the spending review.

The link road has the support of the vast majority of businesses in the area and is championed by Lancaster chamber of commerce. I support the road, as does my next-door neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris), through whose constituency the road would run. The road is important for future growth in Lancaster and, without it, links to the city are poor and businesses will continue to suffer. Moreover, the port of Heysham is to be improved, with its connections to the Isle of Man and Northern Ireland, and there is the possibility of a new nuclear power station being built at Heysham, so we need the road to help such expansions take place. Those expansions should lead to new jobs for the area. I also hope that in the not-too-distant future the scheme will be approved and we will get our link road, after such a long wait.

However, the link road would not be a panacea for traffic congestion. Local transport movements of smaller vehicles would still mean congestion, especially at the choke points approaching the bridges. Local transport schemes need to be funded to allow better car movements—again, there will be tension between planning and keeping the character of the city centre. We need to encourage a modal shift to buses and other forms of sustainable transport. Once again, reduced congestion can only help local business.

I turn now to specific regeneration and business support measures. I welcome those Government decisions that are likely to help small businesses, such as a further extension to small business rate relief and a tapered drop in corporation tax over the next few years. They are welcome and will encourage growth across the city.

Lancaster has one of the highest proportions of public sector workers in the country, and the announcement on the comprehensive spending review tomorrow will lead to a reduction in the public sector work force. So, I am pleased that the Government have established the regional growth fund, which will create a £1 billion pot to help the transition from dependence on public sector jobs to the private sector. The fund will be vital in supporting private enterprise outside London and the south-east. I hope that Lancaster and Fleetwood, and the surrounding area, will get their fair share of the support package.

That leads me to my final point. I am pleased that the Government have stuck to their promise to abolish regional development agencies. Those bodies were bureaucratic and, in the north-west, a great deal of their funds ended up in the big city conurbations of Manchester and Liverpool. With respect to those cities, it too often seems to us in Lancaster that, for many people in London, the north-west seems to end on the outskirts of Manchester and Liverpool.

The new local enterprise partnerships, therefore, should allow smaller, more focused efforts at development, designed around the needs of more homogeneous communities. I know that there are a number of bids in Lancashire at the moment and I hope that we will end up with an LEP model that achieves the aim of bringing adequate, properly targeted investment into our area while providing suitable economies of scale.

In conclusion, Lancaster knows, as does the rest of the country, that it must face up to the deficit legacy of the previous Government. It knows that Government support, in terms of investment, will be tight. So please allow Lancaster, when it believes it has the local wherewithal, to encourage new investment and to protect what is best in its historical heritage. Please do not allow Government agencies and quangos to get in the way.

11:14

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) on securing this important debate. I listened with care to what he said.

Striking a balance between preserving heritage and generating jobs for people in the present day is important. However, I do not take the view that heritage is an obstacle to development. If I look at my own constituency, the city of York, I see the valuable built heritage as an enormous economic asset.

York is especially rich in built heritage. The Multangular tower is, I think, the only extant Roman building in Britain that still rises 10 metres above the ground. The minster and city walls were mentioned by the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood. York has mediaeval streets such as Shambles and Georgian streets such as St Leonard’s place, as well as Victorian architecture. Great museums, such as the National Railway museum, the Jorvik Viking centre, the Castle museum and the Yorkshire museum, and the race course all attract visitors to York in their millions. In the last year for which I have figures, 2008, 7.1 million tourists visited York—2009 figures will be out soon—and they spent £450 million in the city, creating thousands of jobs for local people.

Those historic assets, when combined with extremely good schools, two excellent universities and York college, in a brand-new building, have made the city of York a magnet for investment. There are new industries such as those based on bioscience, which have grown out of expertise at the university of York campus. Engineering, which still employs thousands of people in York, draws on the city’s long railway heritage, and there are, as I mentioned, thousands of jobs in tourism and retail.

The York economy performs particularly well. Almost 80% of the working-age population in York is in employment, compared with less than 75% nationally. Only 6.8% of people in the city of York have no qualifications at all, compared with more than 12% nationally. More than a third of the population in York—36%—have a national vocational qualification of level 4 or above, compared with only 29% nationally. Only 4% of young people in York are not in education, employment or training, compared with some 14% nationally.

In terms of business growth, York again does well. Between 2000 and last year, the number of businesses in York grew from 4,645 to 5,820. No one could possibly say that York’s exceptionally rich heritage is an obstacle to economic activity or development. In fact, it is an asset.

There is a citizen-led campaign in York for the city to gain UNESCO world heritage status, which I support. There is no evidence that Edinburgh castle and the Royal Mile have suffered as a result of the city obtaining UNESCO world heritage status. I hope that the York bid will get support from York city council and from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. It would in no way interfere with development, because York and its planning authorities have to safeguard the heritage whether or not we have UNESCO world heritage status.

When the developers were digging the foundations of the Coppergate site 30 years ago, they uncovered Viking Jorvik. Far from demanding money from the Government to dig the site, the York Archaelogical Trust made the dig a commercial success, in the same way in which the Jorvik museum is now a commercial asset to York as well as an important guardian of the city’s rich historical heritage. The site draws visitors to the Coppergate area, which is a shopping centre as well, so it is good for business, too. The same is happening in Hungate. The Archaeological Trust is currently digging the site in a way that is compatible with development.

York’s historic assets, such as the minster and the National Railway Museum, are treasures of national and international importance. As such, they need support from national Government. I welcome the decisions that were taken in the Government’s quango cull this week not to get rid of the independent status of the National Railway Museum and, particularly, not to merge English Heritage and the Heritage Lottery Fund, which are two bodies with separate roles. English Heritage has a regulatory role and makes grants available from public funds, whereas the Heritage Lottery Fund makes grants available from lottery receipts, and we need both bodies. I warmly welcome confirmation of the Heritage Lottery Fund’s grant of £9.7 million towards the restoration of York minster’s great east window, which is the largest mediaeval work of art anywhere in the world. It is a Yorkshire icon and has been for centuries. It will cost some £25 million to restore, and our generation must not fail to maintain an international treasure with the status of York minster.

Yorkshire Forward had promised two substantial grants to heritage bodies in York. Some £5 million had been pledged towards the cost of re-displaying the exhibition in the National Railway Museum’s great hall—which has not been re-displayed since the museum was first built—and £1 million was to go towards restoring the minster’s great east window. As a result of the Government’s decision to abolish regional development agencies, those grants were withdrawn. Although I do not want to get into an argument now about the benefits of regional development agencies today, I do want to say to the Minister that if a vehicle for distributing resources to generate employment is going to change, which it is, it is important that the new mechanisms recognise the importance of heritage as a generator of employment, and that there are times when grants need to be made to support heritage because of the economic and employment consequences of so doing.

I know that we live in straitened economic times, but there is much that the Government can do to support the valuable heritage of historic towns and cities such as York that does not necessarily cost a fortune. Sir Ron Cooke, a former vice-chancellor of the university of York and a fellow of the Royal Geographical Society, recently wrote the interesting document, “Downtown York: a practical manifesto”. Although I do not expect the Minister to read it because I know that mountains of paper go across ministerial desks, I commend it both to his officials and to officials in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. There are some big ticket items such as major economic developments to which the Government would have to make a contribution. The York central site, for instance, is a large one—it is probably two thirds of the size of the area within York’s city walls—behind York station, bounded by railway lines with difficult access. It is a huge development site adjacent to the city walls, which provides enormous opportunities for York’s continued economic development. Without some Government funding for access roads, for instance, that development will not take place.

In his paper, Sir Ron Cooke says:

“York’s inner-city streetscape, its ambience and public realm, are unique and spectacular resources that are fundamental to the city’s present and future prosperity. They are amongst the city’s special selling points, not just for visitors, but also for residents, entrepreneurs, investors, job creators, employees on the move, and students.”

He says that those streets are the stage on which everyone plays. He makes the point that through planning decisions, we sometimes undermine or wreck that very special ambience. In the 1960s for example, some concrete and glass buildings—thankfully, only a few—were built in the centre of York. We recently gave permission for a rail engineering firm to build a block that overshadows the city walls. Those planning mistakes should not be repeated, as they undermine what is special about York and what draws investment to York.

Sir Ron Cooke also mentions signage. We litter everywhere with street signs. Sometimes, a big illuminated concrete or stainless steel monstrosity is erected in the wrong place. There is one such sign at the end of Shambles, which is the prettiest mediaeval street anywhere in Britain. The signs can be taken down; they are not needed. The streets of York were not built for motor cars, and most of them are pedestrianised anyway, so cars do not go up and down them. If a bollard is really needed, we could put up something appropriate that is made of cast iron rather than concrete. Such things do not cost a fortune. We could set up a committee to plan in a different way. Given that York and other historic cities are such valuable places for running businesses, developers tend to want erect buildings that are in keeping with the surroundings.

I know that many other hon. Members want to speak, so I will conclude. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood for obtaining this debate and giving me the opportunity to say a few words.

11:27

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) on calling this debate. However, my sentiments and sympathies are more with the hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley), which is perhaps not surprising, given that I represent Britain’s oldest recorded town. For the record, it was the first capital of Roman Britain when London was just a few huts on the mud banks of the River Thames.

When we talk about historic towns and cities, we must recognise the need for central Government. They cannot be left to the local council of the day. We are, after all, today’s custodians of yesterday for tomorrow. Short-term, quick decisions that are made can have a lasting legacy of the wrong sort. I say thank goodness for English Heritage. None the less, I wish that it had more powers in the decision-making process rather than had its powers weakened. Often, it takes a wider view. Is it right that a local authority should, to all intents and purposes, be lumbered with the financial consequences of maintaining national heritage? Colchester has the largest surviving Roman walls of any town or city in this country. They go back some 2,000 years, and they desperately need £500,000 to maintain them.

Colchester has applied for world heritage site status. It deserves such recognition not only in view of its status as the first capital of Roman Britain but because, in December 2004, the remains of the only Roman chariot-racing circus, or stadium, were discovered. The circus would have been a massive structure, accommodating 16,000 people in an all-seater stadium. We are lucky that the Victorians who designed the Colchester garrison in the mid-1850s left a huge expanse of greenery between the barracks to the east and the barracks to the west without even realising that they were doing so. The barracks have now moved out to the new barracks site and the standing requirement in Colchester for planning is that there must be an archaeological dig. In the dig at that site, the circus was discovered.

Colchester has a pre-Roman history. It was the home of the Trinovantes, the local Celtic tribe. The Romans invaded in 43AD and it was in the ancient British settlement that was located two miles to the south of modern Colchester—if we can call a Roman town “modern”—that eight Celtic kings offered their surrender to the Romans.

In 60AD, Colchester had a visit from Queen Boudicca, ruler of the Iceni tribe in Norfolk, who destroyed the town. In those days, the town, which subsequently became a Roman city, had a population of 10,000, a huge figure for that time. Remarkably, Colchester is the only Roman city that today does not have city status. When I queried that at the time of the millennium city appeal and the golden jubilee city appeal, I was advised that the only person who could remove city status once it had been granted was the head of state. The head of state who granted city status to Colchester was the Roman emperor. There is no record from the subsequent 2,000 years of the head of state ever withdrawing the title of “city” from Colchester and I put it to you, Mr Dobbin, that justice demands that we should have that city status reinstated.

We have to be careful with our historic towns and cities. I can show people around my town and show them that the Roman street grid pattern still exists today. The high street is the Roman road—people can see that it is still straight. Unfortunately, in the early 1970s in a street parallel to the high street, the “experts” said that the street pattern ought to be broken up. Consequently, a street that had stood for nearly 2,000 years—or rather the line of that street—has now been obliterated by a new shopping precinct, because that is what the “experts” said should happen in the early 1970s. However, about 10 years ago other “experts” said that that was the worst thing that had ever happened to Colchester, so we have to be careful with “experts”.

We are also a Saxon town. In fact, the tower of Holy Trinity church was built by the Saxons before the Normans came and it was built out of Roman remains. Furthermore, the Norman castle, which is vastly superior to any other castle that still remains in Britain and indeed is the largest Norman castle in Europe, was also built largely out of Roman remains.

I mention the Norman castle because it also needs loving and regular care and attention, as do the Roman walls, the Roman circus and Gosbecks archaeological park—or rather, Gosbecks would be an archaeological park if the Heritage Lottery Fund had coughed up the money that was sought in the park’s application to achieve such status.

We cannot expect a local authority to fund nationally acclaimed historic tourist attractions. So I am making a special plea that we need to provide national funding for such attractions. However, it is quite interesting that the last Government recognised that tourism had an important role and it provided millions of pounds, through the Arts Council and urban regeneration funding, for the arts. In the case of Colchester, what they thought would make a great tourist attraction was not all that Roman or Norman heritage, nor the fact that Colchester was one of the last major scenes of the English civil war—during the siege of Colchester, Colchester lost more lives within the Roman walls than it did during the two world wars. No, it was decided that what Colchester needed was not something to do with history but rather a visual arts facility to promote contemporary Latin American art. Such art is a subject that the people of Colchester constantly talk about—actually, I think not.

The original project price of that facility was £16 million. Today, the construction of the facility is running approximately four years late and £8.5 million over budget. I recognise that that money came from different pots, but I am criticising the previous Government for channelling it through “culture” when, in the case of Britain’s oldest recorded town, it should have been channelled through “history” and gone into the town’s history. If that £25 million had been spent on the various Roman and Norman sites that I have mentioned, it would have been far better spent.

So that is where we are. I want to conclude by referring to a relatively small part of the history of Britain’s oldest recorded town. The world’s most popular nursery rhyme was composed in Colchester in 1805. That nursery rhyme is “Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star”. I will not recite all of it. However, the house where the Taylor sisters wrote it, which is in West Stockwell street, is currently on the market. I believe that the purchase of that building and its promotion as the place where the world’s most popular nursery rhyme was composed would draw in more visitors than the visual arts facility, which will also require an annual subsidy from the public purse of £600,000. So, on top of the £25 million that it cost to build an arts facility that most people in Colchester did not want but that was dumped on them, taxpayers will have to find £600,000 a year to subsidise the facility. As I have already indicated, if we had national financial support for our national heritage—whether that heritage is Roman settlements or “Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star”—that money would be better invested and it would bring in the tourists.

11:36

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

I want to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) on securing this debate, which is of the utmost importance to his constituents and mine. Like Lancaster, York and Colchester, Chester is a beautiful historic city that has been economically successful for almost 2,000 years. As with many historic towns and cities, Chester was traditionally a county and market town, and the modern Chester still has a very important sub-regional role, providing jobs, shops and entertainment for a huge area that stretches across north Wales, Cheshire, the Wirral and north Shropshire.

As a result of their history, culture and pleasant surroundings, historic towns have tended to be very popular and desirable residential locations. However, such popularity and desirability bring about their own problems, in terms of high house prices and the difficulty that many local people face in affording housing in towns such as Chester. In the 21st century, we also face a threat to our traditional economy, which is based on being a retail and tourism centre, from increased competition, internet shopping, out-of-town retail parks and cheap foreign travel.

In Chester, we also have a problem that other historic towns and cities have not had to deal with so much. That problem is that we have not always taken advantage of our historic assets; we have not looked after them and we have not maximised their potential for economic advantage. We look to places such as York and see what has been done there, and we in Chester want to follow in the footsteps of the people of York and ensure that we are as successful as York has been.

There are a few challenges and opportunities that I would like to discuss. First, we must ensure that we all make maximum use and take maximum advantage of the assets that we already have. In Chester, we have a thriving shopping centre and we are already a world-renowned visitor destination. We also have the most successful zoo in the UK, the Roman walls and amphitheatre, and the Chester Rows, a site that is another applicant for UNESCO world heritage status. Furthermore, Chester Races draws tens of thousands of people to our city.

However, we need to do more to ensure that we continue to prosper in the 21st century. In the future, we need to give the people who come to Chester more. When people go shopping in Chester, we need to ensure that they get more than just the shops. We have to ensure that we entertain them and inform them as well. People have to know that if they come shopping in one of our historic towns there will be things happening—street entertainment, museums, galleries, theatre, a wide range of restaurants, interesting historic sites, and parks and open spaces in which they can relax. The same is true with tourism.

In Chester, we have been successful in getting people to come to our city on day trips, but we are aware that day-trippers do not spend huge amounts of money in the city; they tend to come in on the coach, spend a day there, have a look around and disappear again, without putting their hands in their pockets. We have to ensure that we start selling our historic towns and cities as a package. We want to encourage people to come to Chester and not only come for the day but spend a couple of nights. They could see the zoo one day or go to the races, then spend a day in the city centre going shopping or walking the walls and seeing some of our historic sites, such as the cathedral, and perhaps on a third day they could go to north Wales, into Snowdonia, or to Liverpool for the day. People need to know that if they come to Chester or one of our other historic towns or cities, there will be something going on regardless of the day, week or time of year. We need to start marketing our towns and cities as a package—a mix of history, culture, entertainment and shopping. That total mix is important.

Out-of-town shopping centres may have shops and the cinema, but do they have the culture and the history? A day trip to a theme park may be fun, but does it educate someone or allow them to shop in high-quality high street shops? It is only by maximising, and making the best use of, all our assets that we can work towards delivering our goal, which is to have a vibrant and busy local economy and for our historic towns and cities to thrive, compete and prosper in the 21st century.

Like the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood, transport and local transport infrastructure is one of the biggest problems we face. Historic towns tend to have been built before the invention of the motor car, and the Romans did not think of the needs of the car when they were building the city and laying out Chester’s street network. We also have the problem of being unable to adapt our local transport infrastructure due to our historic heritage. No one would seriously suggest blasting a hole in our city walls these days to build a new road or tramway, and, similarly, no one would consider knocking down a row of listed buildings to widen a narrow road.

Historic towns tend to be restricted by their geography. Chester, like many historic towns and cities, is built on the lowest fording point of the River Dee, and consequently faces huge problems getting people from one side of the city to the other, when the river is running through the middle. In Chester, we also have only two bridges crossing the river, so road traffic faces severe difficulties getting from one side of the city into the city and out. That is exacerbated by the fact that, like Lancaster, people have to travel through the city centre to get from one side of Chester to the other. We have to get away from through traffic being funnelled through city centres. Suitable bypasses that allow traffic to avoid the centre are, in many cases, a desperate requirement, and, to that end, like my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood, I would like to highlight the long-standing and desperate need for a Chester western relief road, which would not only relieve congestion within the city centre but open up a large area on the English-Welsh border for economic redevelopment in future.

When people get in to the city centre, they still face problems. Car parks are often worth more as development sites than car parks, which leads either to sky-high car parking charges or to a shortage of parking spaces in the city centre. We all want a reduction in unnecessary car travel, but for many historic towns, especially those with a large travel-to-work or travel-to-shop catchment area, car travel is necessary. Over-expensive parking or a lack of parking has only one effect: it discourages people from visiting the city centre and encourages them to travel to out-of-town locations instead. To combat that, local authorities have to ensure that there is adequate low-cost car parking. New and novel pricing structures need to be introduced as well. For instance, Chester has a free-after-three scheme, which allows and encourages local residents into the town in late afternoons and early evenings—traditionally quiet periods for the city centre shops—while ensuring that all-day parkers, who tend to have to go to the city centre to work, are encouraged out of their cars and into the park-and-ride scheme. It is more cost-effective to use the park-and-ride scheme for the day than use the car parks and fill up space needed for shoppers and visitors. Of course, such schemes also reduce rush-hour congestion.

We cannot forget the importance of the railways. Many historic towns and cities were key link points during the expansion of the railways in the 19th century. Typically, historic towns have very good rail links, which provide some strange ties—for instance, Chester has good rail connections with London, but the direct train to London stops at Milton Keynes. Chester has advertised in Milton Keynes, and we have had a huge number of people coming from Milton Keynes to Chester, because it is just as easy to get to Chester as it is to get to London for the day. We are encouraging people from Milton Keynes to come. I did not think that Milton Keynes was in a suitable catchment area for Chester, but it is, due to those rail links. Virgin Trains said that the Chester-London line has been its best performing line over the past year, so more people have been encouraged into the city, encouraging more improvements in our local economy.

We are lucky that our historic towns and cities provide a desirable environment; people want to live in and visit them. Companies want to be based in them and bring their customers to them. Consequently, we are seeing huge demand, even in these straitened times, for high-quality, modern business locations. However, there is a problem in historic towns in that it can be difficult to find room to accommodate that new business growth. We cannot easily clear large sections of an historic city centre for redevelopment without destroying our historic heritage. The city centre of Chester, like Colchester, is surrounded by walls, so there is a natural limit on growth in the city centre. Consequently, there are huge pressures to develop outside the town in the neighbouring green belt. Historic towns must be allowed to develop organically, and, sometimes, some green belt development may be necessary, but that should be only when there is no alternative. In the meantime, we must maximise redevelopment opportunities and take maximum advantage of opportunities as they arise.

The current economic situation and the proposed downsizing of all levels of government have a silver lining, in that they provide a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for historic towns and cities to release land in town centres for new development opportunities. The abolition of Cheshire county council last year led to the sale of the old county hall in Chester to Chester university for the development of a new riverside campus. The gradual downsizing of Lloyds Banking Group, following its creation through the merger of HBOS and Lloyds TSB last year, has led to a huge tract of land becoming available between Chester station and the canal in Boughton, which, I hope, will be redeveloped as a new business district in the heart of the city. Recent school closures have provided land for new retail development, new care facilities and new affordable housing for local residents. Therefore, there is a sliver lining to the reductions in Government expenditure and the release of properties in our historic cities for economic purposes.

Our historic towns and cities have, by nature, tended to be successful and prosperous towns. By selling our historic towns as a package, improving their transport infrastructure and allowing organic growth, we can help them to become even more successful in future.

11:49

[Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)]

This has been a good-natured debate, but I am afraid that I am going to introduce an element of controversy: I yield to no one in my belief that Bury St Edmunds, which I have the honour to represent, is the best historic town in these isles. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) on securing this important debate.

My constituency is truly historic. Its famous abbey ruins were central to the initiation of Magna Carta, and St Edmund, the patron saint of England, is buried there. It has a terrific cathedral whose tower was recently finished using millennium money. That is the true ship of the fens; forget about Ely cathedral. The town centre has magnificent Georgian streets and a marvellously restored Georgian theatre, the Theatre Royal. An important and traditional brewing business, Greene King, now one of the biggest brewers in western Europe, is located right in the centre of town, providing jobs and a focal point for community activity.

As many speakers in this debate have said, however, historic towns cannot stand still. If they are imaginative and have intelligent leadership, they must combine the best of the past and the future. For that reason, I wish to draw attention to the biggest retail development that Bury St Edmunds has ever seen: the Arc development, built on the old cattle market in the town centre. I pay tribute to St Edmundsbury borough council, under the excellent leadership of Councillor John Griffiths and his deputy, Councillor Sara Mildmay-White, for being an example of localism at its best. Such an important development would not have occurred without their vision and practical ability to drive it through.

Importantly to me and many of my constituents, the development, although modern, is architecturally in tune and in sympathy with the great historic core of my town. It was designed by Sir Michael Hopkins, whom architecture buffs will know as the architect behind Portcullis House and the auditorium at Glyndebourne. Anyone who looks at the design—thousands upon thousands of people from across East Anglia shop there, particularly at weekends—can appreciate what a fine piece of work it is.

The Arc has 370,000 square feet of retail, a 40,000 square foot public building—I will speak more about that in a minute—and 62 residential units. My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) drew attention to the importance of car parking. That was a controversial issue during the development, but the Arc has 850 car parking spaces, including a particularly fine and distinguished underground parking facility.

The total cost of the scheme was approximately £136 million. The developers, Centros, assembled much of the finance, but St Edmundsbury borough council ensured that money was stumped up for the public venue, which cost about £16.5 million, including a modest contribution of about £1.5 million from the East of England Development Agency, which will soon be late and lamented, as it did its bit for my town while it existed.

The economic rationale for the development was clear. Several years ago, the town leaders—I played a modest part—understood that a new and more acquisitive society had been created by the boom years. Sadly, the boom years turned to a bust, but they will return under the leadership of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. People want better retail and more of it. We realised that unless we moved with the times, Bury St Edmunds might keep its history, but it would not keep its retail sector running at the level necessary for the market town to remain vibrant.

We commissioned a study that showed that people in the Bury St Edmunds catchment area were spending about £700 million on what is called in the jargon “comparison goods”. The analysis stated that without the new development, the amount spent in the town would be only £263 million. In short, we were competing with the much bigger retail centres of Cambridge, Ipswich, Norwich and Colchester. We are now back in the game. Some of the early benefits and signs of the Arc’s importance can be seen in the figures produced by Experian, the financial analysts, for Bury St Edmunds since the opening of the development at the start of 2009.

Bury St Edmunds has moved from 161st in the country’s retail rankings to 145th. Some 300 new long-term jobs have been created on the site, and an unquantifiable but significant number of additional jobs have been created as a result of the development. Nine companies based in and around the town were involved in the building, which also boasts a timber-frame aspect and waste disposal facilities, all drawing on local business.

The main indicator of footfall in Bury St Edmunds is car parking. The number of cars parked in the town has risen by 8%, while centres in other parts of East Anglia have experienced a typical decrease of about 10% in the past two years. It is estimated that the development generates £500,000 a year in business rates. Not all the units have been let, so we expect that number to grow. The commercial property vacancy rate since the development opened has been about 8.5% , while the average throughout England and Wales at the start of 2010 was 12.4%.

Meanwhile—other hon. Members may have noted this phenomenon with regard to new developments in their constituency—outside businesses have come in to get a bit of the action. Where such businesses see more footfall, they see an opportunity to grow. Existing and long-established shops in Bury St Edmunds, such as Palmers, were initially concerned that they might be crowded out or that the new development might take away their custom. In fact, I am told, Palmers reports increased turnover since the Arc opened.

One significant entry into the town has been a high-quality, brand-new, badly needed Asda superstore west of Bury St Edmunds town centre, where it now serves a huge part of the population that felt disenfranchised in retail terms. That is one development for which the borough council cannot claim credit; it is all down to the doughty campaigners of the Howard estate, their unofficial leader Mr Ernie Broom and the redoubtable men and women, mainly pensioners, of the over-60s club on that fine estate. If I may be party political for a moment, they are an example of the big society in action. They assembled public meetings and persuaded Asda that a shop was needed there. We got the shop, and it has been a huge success. That ties in with the redevelopment of Western Way, where the borough council has moved its offices to a modern site.

I hope my few brief remarks have reflected what other colleagues have also said this morning: that history can, indeed, be combined with the best of the future. If towns have good leadership and individuals who want to participate to build a stronger community—a stronger business community—that will welcome tourists and shoppers from outside the area, there is a way forward. It is not always big Government who can make big developments happen. Like so many other historic towns, Bury St Edmunds does not need a handout; all it needs is a hand up from good leadership at the head of its communities. As I reflect on what has been achieved in the past two years, I am proud to have been the Member of Parliament for somewhere that is very fine and is, dare I say it, the best historic constituency.

[Mr Philip Hollobone in the Chair]

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I think I am right in saying that we may be about to have a debut performance from the Member speaking for Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition—Mr Gordon Marsden.

12:01

[Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

It is a great delight to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I warmly congratulate the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw)—a fellow Lancastrian MP—on his presentation and on securing the debate. In that welcome, I embrace all hon. Members who have contributed. If I were a tourist buff visiting from the United States or Japan, I would be absolutely gobsmacked at the cornucopia of opportunities that all hon. Members have talked about—many congratulations to all who have spoken.

I want to highlight what the hon. Gentleman said. In his typically robust and common-sense way, he laid out some of the key issues and challenges not just for Lancaster, but for many of the towns and cities that have been mentioned. Of course, Lancaster is a very fine city. Its distinctiveness reflects that of the county palatine, which was created in the 14th century and is directly linked to the royal family. That is why at dinners in the historical county, which includes Blackpool, we still end our toasts to the Queen with the words, “The Queen, the Duke of Lancaster.” In the inclusion of those words, we tend to gloss over the fact that the building up of his power by Richard II did not exactly have the results that Richard II anticipated.

In talking about the issues surrounding the shortage of retail shopping, the hon. Gentleman rightly illuminated challenges and tensions, particularly in relation to Lancaster castle, between current usage and possible future heritage usage. We must also consider the specific issue of transport access—narrow city streets—to which I will return. All those topics are very important, and he presented his case very well indeed.

There was a common theme to all today’s presentations. My colleague and hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) talked about how strongly heritage has driven economic success and growth. The hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) discussed the very interesting issue—although it is not necessarily one for this debate—of the extent to which local authorities should be held responsible for historic assets. In respect of cathedrals, the Church of England has, of course, argued the toss with English Heritage on that for a number of years with some success.

I entirely agree with what the hon. Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) said about sub-regional roles and the total mix. We cannot keep heritage in aspic or have retail that ignores the historic context in which it is delivered. That total mix is extremely important. The hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley) gave a bravura performance in demonstrating that we can actually have a connection between the past and the future. He also made an important point about the role that local people, groups and associations play in that rich mix of regeneration. It is not just a question of top-down government. As I say, in that respect, it has been a good and enlightened debate.

The Government can play a key role, which does not have to be overbearing, in the economic development of our historic towns and cities. The previous Government had a decent track record on the matter, and many of our historic towns and cities, whether it is Liverpool in the north-west or Hastings in the south-east, have experienced a renaissance in recent years. Much of that was helped by targeted support from the previous Government, which meant that existing buildings were preserved and adapted to become cutting-edge new venues. That has often been linked to the economic renewal of many historic cities and initiatives—none more so than the recent initiatives in Liverpool, when it was the city of culture. I want to mention briefly the Bluecoat theatre in Liverpool, which was first built in 1708 as a charity school. It was reopened in March 2008 after a £14 million redevelopment in which Arts Council England, the Heritage Lottery Fund, the regional development agency, the European regional development fund, trusts, foundations and private donors all played a part.

I would like to add a couple of points about that project that are relevant to this morning’s discussion. The project involved adapting a traditional building to 21st-century local economy needs to showcase visual art, music, live art and literature. Incidentally, the project built on a tradition that has ranged from showing the post-modernists in 1911 to Yoko Ono in 1967—she came back in 2008 for a reunion. The project was completed with a mixture of private funding and public funding from the Government and other bodies.

Looking around the Chamber, it is interesting to note that the contributions have not come from Members representing major cities; they have come from what I describe—I do not do so in a disparaging way because I include my own town of Blackpool—as second-level towns and cities. Those towns and cities are just as key to economic development and renewal as big cities and rural areas. Many second-level towns and cities are also seaside and coastal towns.

The Sea Change programme was and continues to be delivered through the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. I had a modest role in encouraging the programme when it was set up under the previous Government. It has helped to boost the economic development of a number of historic coastal towns and cities. A series of grants in excess of £38 million have helped to fund regeneration projects in some 32 resorts. In passing, I would like to mention the town of Blackpool in my constituency. Under that funding, Blackpool tower will benefit from a tower headland—a major new space stretching out into the Irish sea. It will be themed according to the rich history of variety in Blackpool, with a so-called comedy carpet and all sorts of pyrotechnic wonders.

It is not just seaside towns that have benefited from the programme. Coastal towns have also benefited. For example, Dover received £4 million, which allowed the restoration and enhancement of the great tower, which has resulted in a surge in visitor numbers. The remainder of the money is helping with Dover’s ambitious regeneration plans, including a sea-front development and a cable car project linking the town centre to the castle.

It is not just seaside towns that have an historic aspect to them; historic cities that attract large numbers of tourists are also important. Norwich is good example, as a private charitable trust has been set up to help develop 12 iconic buildings into an integrated group of heritage attractions. The overarching framework means that Norwich’s unique assessment of its heritage buildings can function as a catalyst for wider economic regeneration across the area.

The work of non-governmental organisations, such as the Heritage Lottery Fund, must be recognised as helping to develop many of our historic towns and cities. For example, the Townscape Heritage initiative provided £7.5 million of funding, which was matched by the same amount from the European regional development fund, to help redevelop the Ropewalks area of Liverpool. The scheme has also provided money for projects in my constituency of Blackpool, including the revitalisation of St John’s square.

English Heritage has been mentioned in the debate by hon. Members—although not always with approval for what it has done. Nevertheless, it has done some very good things, particularly in the north-west. The hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood might wish to discuss that at another time and place. In particular, in Blackpool it helped to alert us all to the importance of a major regeneration of the winter gardens and the tower, which was a catalyst for the £40 million package of support that was put together earlier this year and which has enabled Blackpool council to take control and offer direction, along with Merlin Entertainments, in those areas. I pay tribute to all those involved, because it provides a strong business case for us in Blackpool. I could cite many other examples, such as the restoration of the traditional covered market in Stockport, the town I grew up in, which has brought an important part of the town centre back to life.

The balance to be struck between conservation and development and regeneration is a subtle one, and it requires the input of statutory bodies, regional and European funding, heritage bodies such as the National Trust and English Heritage and, often, the initiatives of locally based heritage and environmental development groups. How, then, can heritage create the sort of economic activity to which my hon. Friend the Member for York Central referred? English Heritage’s report, “Heritage Counts 2010”, which was published last week, demonstrates in part how that works. New research, commissioned by English Heritage and the National Trust, has looked at the economic impact of investments totalling £23 million at five heritage tourist attractions across the country. Interestingly, half of all jobs generated by such attractions were in the wider community, in local bars, restaurants, hotels and shops. In fact, it was found that every pound invested generated an additional £1.70 for the local economy.

Regional development agencies were mentioned in the debate, not always supportively, but as my hon. Friend said, they provided significant funds for the development of our historic towns and cities in recent years. The East of England Development Agency invested more than £86 million in areas such as Great Yarmouth, Lowestoft and Southend, and I have already referred to the key role of the RDA in regeneration in Blackpool. Incidentally, Blackpool is also on the list for a world heritage bid, and English Heritage has been playing a key role in that.

The Opposition are concerned about the impact that the abolition of the RDAs might have on the future economic development of historic towns and cities, given the strong role that they have played in the past 10 years. The regional growth fund, which will total only £1 billion over two years, is not a substitute for the budgets that RDAs had for leading regeneration projects in many of our historic towns and cities. As Members will know, some of the funding we are talking about was dependent on match funding from the European regional development fund. That has been put on ice until the status and role of the new local enterprise partnerships are decided. There are real concerns that if that is not done quickly the money will go out the window. I know that that is not the Minister’s direct responsibility, but I ask him to urge his colleagues in the Departments for Business, Innovation and Skills and for Communities and Local Government to come to some conclusion on that matter as quickly as possible.

Governments must recognise that there should be no doctrinaire approach on public and private initiatives in that area, and that cuts both ways. I cite the famous words of Deng Xiaoping, who is not necessarily the greatest advocate for regenerating democracy, but who did lay the foundations of China’s economic success in the 1980s. He is supposed to have said, “It does not matter whether the cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice.” My assertion is that the cat has caught a significant number of mice over recent years, largely because public, private and local groups have worked together.

Transport is of key importance in balancing conservation and development. I ask the Minister gently, where is the strategy for including transport planning in any successor bodies to the RDAs, particularly local enterprise partnerships? We have seen the development of light rail and tram systems in many of our historic towns and cities; Manchester is a particularly good example of where that has enabled the local council to free up, develop and sustain tight historic areas, such as those around the canal and the village, and to link up with towns and areas outside.

The Government are abolishing the Government office network, which will inevitably remove a key repository of knowledge and, to some extent, a co-ordinating body. Will big infrastructure projects, which could be catalysts for economic growth in historic towns and cities, get the same level of support and co-ordination from civil servants based in Whitehall? That is an important matter in areas where the travel-to-work area is larger than the area of the local authority that controls an historic town or city.

In conclusion, although it was inevitable that public sector-led projects for boosting the economic development of our historic places would be squeezed in difficult times, some of the proposed changes and the way in which the Government are pushing ahead with them could make it harder for major projects to get off the ground. Many of the projects that I and other Members have mentioned today have been multi-agency and have needed considerable co-ordination between national and local statutory organisations and third sector and local groups. I urge the Government merely to recognise that as they develop their policies, because the successes in historic renewal and economic regeneration that we have heard about today must not be stymied by that process.

12:16

[The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)]

The pleasure in serving under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, is matched by the pleasure of facing the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) for the first time in his new Opposition role. We are old friends, and I am delighted that he has been able to contribute to the debate. I am conscious that I am here with an enormous task; I gather from the debate so far that I must draw together Government policies on cities, towns, growth, planning, historic buildings, transport, Anglo-Saxon, Norman and Roman history, tourism, Victorian architecture, prisons and nursery rhymes. Ever mindful of the fate of the three blind mice, Humpty Dumpty and the cat in the well, here is my best shot.

My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) has done the House a service in securing the debate. He made a powerful case for the balance, as the hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) put it, between the historic character of his constituency and the need for change, a point to which I will return later. He is right that economic development is of central importance in ensuring the future well-being of our historic towns and cities across the country, including those in his fine constituency.

The coalition Government inherited a record public sector deficit—you would expect me to say that the day before the comprehensive spending review, Mr Hollobone, but it is relevant to the debate because, as well as being about history, the debate is about economic growth, regeneration and the opportunities that come from investment in the towns and cities that have been so well represented by those who have spoken in the debate.

The hon. Member for York Central, an old friend and sparring partner, spoke with typical eloquence and passion about York. I know what a dedicated servant of that great city he is, and he will know that I holidayed there recently and so can give testament to all that he says about the balance between a modern, thriving York, and its rich architectural and other history. He was right to say that heritage generates employment. The hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), whom I shall ever after think of as twinkling like a diamond in the Essex sky, made a strong case for both the history and modern profile of his town, which I also know well. Like York, it is a diverse place with a rich history, but one with modern challenges, and he articulated them today, as he always does, with commitment.

Chester is another city that I know well. My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) spoke about holistically integrating the needs of local businesses, infrastructure requirements for transport and issues around planning. He spoke about the threat of out-of-town development, and I shall try to cover that in the brief time that I have to contribute to the debate.

In essence, my hon. Friend showed a humility in recognising that Chester can do more, be better and learn from other examples. Sometimes in drawing together the outcomes of these debates, what we can glean from them is as much about sharing good practice drawn from our constituency experience as anything that the Minister or shadow Minister can say, and my hon. Friend did a service to the House in that regard.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), whom I am delighted to see—I have welcomed him twice, now in Westminster Hall and previously on the Floor of the House—also made a point about holistic development. I was interested particularly in what he said about Sir Michael Hopkins’s mixed development, which combines residential provision, retail business and transport. The assumption that those things should be separated has done immense damage to many of our towns and cities, for the idea that one can compartmentalise those requirements is unhelpful. His example was of the opposite, of how those things can be drawn together in a development which delivers aesthetically as well as in terms of its utility. Again, I shall say more about that.

The hon. Member for Blackpool South spoke of the need for co-ordination. He is right to say that the Government should play a role, but sometimes the Government need to step back as well as forward. This is about getting the Government off people’s backs and on their side. It is about understanding that what the Government do matters, but that what we do not do matters, too; about the balance between local action and Government intervention, and understanding the advantages of the discretion which should and could be exercised by local people and the diversity that springs from that; and about the need to ensure that where co-ordination is required, where some overarching view is needed to pull together transport investment or direct economic activity, the Government should play a part. All this is at the heart of this debate. Let me try in the time I have available to outline how we think that can work.

I mentioned that the CSR will come to its exciting culmination tomorrow. Essential to developing our town and cities and to promoting economic growth is economic well-being. The Chancellor will set out in the spending review detailed policy proposals to promote economic development and spread economic opportunity.

The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills has made it clear that we believe that functions such as inward investment, sector leadership, innovation, responsibility for business support and access to finance are best led nationally, but that much is best decided locally: for example, planning and housing policies, creating the right local environment for business to grow, and tackling issues such as employment and enterprise.

[Mr Marsden]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way—I know that he does not have a great deal of time. He and others spoke about transport. Is he able to confirm that it remains the view of Ministers in his Department that, in some cases, transport needs infrastructure planning over and above sub-regional planning?

[Mr Hayes]

It is true that the Government need to set national priorities for transport infrastructure, but if those priorities are set outside the assumptions and wishes of local communities at sub-regional or local level, they will be frustrated. They will be unpopular at best, and undeliverable at worst, so getting a better balance between local wishes, sensitivities and understanding of economic need, and Government priorities, is at the heart of what we hope to do.

[Bob Russell]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hayes]

I will do so briefly, but I want to have time to make more points of substance.

[Bob Russell]

Of course localism is crucial, but does the Minister agree that if a local council has responsibility for buildings or structures that are, in effect, of national or international significance, there has to be financial support from the centre? It cannot be left to the local authority to pick up the bill.

[Mr Hayes]

Yes, that is a fair point. Where there are, for example, buildings of national significance, it is right that we take a bigger view about the contribution that they make to their locality, but also to what we are as a people. In those cases, there must be an overarching view. Indeed, the hon. Member for York Central made it clear that the Government’s approach to English Heritage reflects exactly that view.

Let me briefly describe how I think the marriage of local decision making and national priorities can be made. The approach that we seek is one that distinguishes between strategic national needs and local economic priorities. A distinction must be made between what is best determined at national level—for example, innovation and sector leadership—and specifically local issues such as transport, planning and housing, notwithstanding the point that I made in response to the hon. Member for Blackpool South. We will publish a White Paper on sub-national economic growth outlining the way forward in those terms.

Our approach is that we can promote growth by freeing enterprise and innovation, and that it is vital to do so. Business confidence depends on sound finances and a Government who are there when they are needed, and who offer support that does not get in the way. Our growth White Paper will set out a new relationship between business and the state.

Our approach will empower local civic and business leaders to determine how to enable their community to create wealth and jobs. If we want to build a bigger, better society, we must bring forward and make real new forms of community engagement. In the strategy that we are putting together, the tension—I believe that was how it was described by one speaker—between the local and the national must be embraced, as must the marriage between the strategic and the tactical. We must find a happy solution to that and I am not sure that that has always happened in the past. I do not want to be excessively party political—this debate is not about that—but I am not sure that previous Governments got that marriage right.

That was well illustrated by some of the points that were made about what was described as the tension between the old and the new. I do not think it is necessary to have tension between the old and the new. It is only through a symbiotic relationship between the two that we can accommodate the familiar touchstones of enduring certainty which make all that is disturbing and surprising in life tolerable, and the constant need for change. The hon. Member for Blackpool South quoted Deng Xiaoping, but I prefer to quote Disraeli, who said:

“Change is inevitable. Change is constant.”

However, change is dependent on seeding an acceptance of it in people’s hearts, and, to some degree at least, that is about local decision making, and local people taking ownership of change.

Governments have been insensitive to that symbiosis. It is true that York, Chester, Colchester and Bury St Edmunds are fine places, but much damage has been done at street level—at human level—in many towns. As well as the scars of much of the building that has emerged since the war, there is also the pain of what has gone. I am sure that that has happened because of an insensitivity to beauty; the triumph of soulless utility over all that elevates and provides our sense of pride and purpose.

The issues that were listed at the beginning of this debate are too numerous for me to cover in detail, but if I had the time, I would be delighted to do so, Mr Hollobone, as you know. In drawing them together, we must take a view about what we see—the buildings, townscapes and landscapes; what we feel—the values and ideas that permeate the towns and cities that we have heard about today and the whole of the nation; and what we do—what workplaces look like, and how our communities are shaped. What we see, feel and do add up to what we are as individuals, as communities, as a people and as a nation.

I am grateful for the opportunity in this all too brief time to congratulate again my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood, and to thank all those who contributed and also you, Mr Hollobone, for it is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Order. I thank all those who attended the debate, and ask them to leave quickly and quietly. We must go on to the next debate.